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saintjon Auditor | joined 04 July 2004 | 135 posts

kellhus == good guy?? posted 04 July 2004 in The Darkness That Comes Beforekellhus == good guy?? by saintjon, Auditor

For me it's the opposite. In The Darkness That Comes Before his actions were what made him out to be er 'questionable' to me, whereas I think his motive might be a respectable enough one.

Well when he first left Ishual he was thinking to himself "I shall dwell in the house of my father." Now that could just mean that he's going to hang around after he kills him, but I don't think so. He seems (and even more through the second book) like he yearns for his father in a different way. After all, neither of them can go back to Ishual, and an island of Dunyain in a sea of deluded animals would probably start to appeal to him after awhile.

Also, going out into the world and blindly following the Dunyain mission to the letter kind of goes against what the dunyain are about anyways. Why shouldn't he (or what he wants to do) come first?

Anyways, for me de-valuing everyone around you because they can't see what you can does not a good man make. Even the ones he supposedly decides to "help out", he only shows them enough of what the Dunyain understand to make them need/want him even more. In the prologue the monk who found the Anasurimbor says crimes will continue "only so long as men are decieved", well I fail to see how being decieved by history is worse than being decieved by Kellhus. view post

My thoughts on TWP posted 04 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetMy thoughts on TWP by saintjon, Auditor

Yeah Achamian pointed out as much in the first book.


What I'm curious about is how is Akka going to act around Kellhus now? He really got a good kick in the teeth as to how full of BS the dunyain is, would he still show him the Gnosis? I for one hope not. If Kellhus had that kind of powe his shortest paths would become about as short as nuclear war.

I kind of hated Esmenet at the end but in retrospect it's not her fault she caught the attention of such a viper.

Here's a question: How is the Holy War going to handle it when Kellhus reaches shimeh and forsakes them all to consult with a ranking Cishaurim? He could probably pull it off without them knowing but still, what a heartbreak for them.

Achamian's my favourite character but Cnaiur is just way too cool. Every fight he gets into he's like a suicidal bull in a china shop. It's hard to picture him without wondering what kind of guy it would take to not be intimidated by his displays.

In answer to the earlier question I think Golgotterath was built around the meteor, which brought the Inchoroi (which I'm quite sure is what that big evil thing in the final chapter was) to Earwa. What I really want to know at this point is what the Nonmen actually are??!! Aside from Kellhus I think they're the biggest wild card in the story. view post

The No-God posted 04 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by saintjon, Auditor

Can't really say Cnaiur speaks for the Scylvendi as a whole seeing as he's the one who was taught to question tradition.

Also, the way Kellhus explains them, I can easily see the Scylvendi worshipping Mog-Pharau. After all, they are all about actions, and the swazond show you carry the weight of the momentum you stopped when you killed the man. as Kellhus says "to them he (Cnaiur) is the pebble that has become an avalanche" as the reason the Scylvendi held him high (although they snickered at his back at his back the whole time). Well imagine how much of this momentum the No-God, who destroyed the armies of Kuniuri at Golgotterath and other nations besides, would have. If actions are what matters to the Scylvendi that says that impact matters to them, and what could you possibly attribute more impact to than a god who slays nations? view post

About the books posted 04 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetAbout the books by saintjon, Auditor

Well that's a pretty reassuring vote of confidence to be sure. The last thing I needed after tearing through the Warrior-Prophet was to be reassured however. Your brother has written the first book I've ever read where the "spell-caster" character was my favourite. I've said many times that George RR Martin made knights cool to me again, and now your bro has done that for magic-users. My gratitude goes out to him. view post

My thoughts on TWP posted 04 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetMy thoughts on TWP by saintjon, Auditor

I thought it was the Inchoroi who were from another planet, and when they showed up they got into it with the nonmen. Gah now I'm all fazuggled. view post

kellhus == good guy?? posted 05 July 2004 in The Darkness That Comes Beforekellhus == good guy?? by saintjon, Auditor

Thank you for the compliment.

Even if Kellhus did use his abilities truly for the greater good of those around him the idea of him still scares the bejeezus out of me. view post

My thoughts on TWP posted 05 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetMy thoughts on TWP by saintjon, Auditor

I feel a re-read coming on as soon as I get the first one back from my cousin <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> view post

Curious if you... posted 05 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; ACurious if you... by saintjon, Auditor

When I see a quote like "out-tolkien's tolkien" I figure it's just as likely the guy didn't even bother reading the book. It's like, "Oh what, they need a positive blurb eh? Hold up a sec." *scribble scribble scribble*

Now here's a quote for TDTCB that's on the cover of The Warrior-Prophet that would catch my eye (although at that point it didn't really matter, after the first one nothing was going to STOP me from reading it.) "Bakker has created an epic fantasy that feels new, feels like it's moving toward a larger meaning than most generic fantasies can never dream of. The Darkness That Comes Before is a fascinating, forceful debut."

BTW, the Penguin covers are just too friggin sexy. I want to find a big old trade paperback for the first novel now too, or better yet get the series in hard cover. The writing is more suggestive of middle-eastern old school holy writings than "elven script" to me.

My little brother reads like pigs fly and even he was looking at the Warrior-Prophet with considerable interest when he saw it on the couch. view post

Curious if you... posted 06 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; ACurious if you... by saintjon, Auditor

LOL at the stalker comment!

Cool thanks for the tip. Btw, I meant to say in my last post that I also heard about The Darkness that Comes Before from Rob/Fitz over at sffworld. I don't know if you go there ever, but he gave it a really strong recommendation. view post

kellhus == good guy?? posted 06 July 2004 in The Darkness That Comes Beforekellhus == good guy?? by saintjon, Auditor

Oh I dunno about that so much, he sort of moves in the trappings, but the way he worked Lleweth over was pretty harsh. view post

The No-God posted 06 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by saintjon, Auditor

Yeah you guys plead a good case. I wonder if there are enough Scylvendi left for it to make a difference though whether they worship him now or not. view post

My thoughts on TWP posted 06 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetMy thoughts on TWP by saintjon, Auditor

*********more spoilers*******************

By the by I thought that big beastly thing at the was an Inchoroi. I think Achamian was the one who said that the Consult was trying to rediscover them or follow in their footsteps or some such, but he only has the knowledge of a Mandate Schoolman. Although the Mandate knows more than anyone else about the Consult their knowledge is limited. I don't know, maybe the Consult leaders have just really messed up their own genes or something.

Has there been a part yet where a description of bashrags was provided? view post

Curious if you... posted 07 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; ACurious if you... by saintjon, Auditor

He is indeed, usually over at sff when I'm getting largely ignored he'll point out when I have a point about something. view post

My thoughts on TWP posted 07 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetMy thoughts on TWP by saintjon, Auditor

They are the Inchoroi Brothers,
Don't get along with others

They'll whine, they'll b!tch
They'll screw you if you're rich

They may not go down in history
But they'll go down on your sister

(Indulgences of a NoFX fan, although those last 2 lines seem appropriate to the way they behave in general) view post

Best character posted 15 July 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeBest character by saintjon, Auditor

Wow do I ever hear you there Legatus.

Achamian's my favourite. Something about the multi-pronged torture of life as a Mandate Schoolman, and the conflict of potence and self-doubt that exists in him. His love/hate relationship with sorcery adds some extra kick to him.

My second favourite is Cnaiur. The guy's like an ultra-violent duck, unapologetically brutal on the surface and paddling like hell underneath. There are few characters in any story whose fight scenes I've enjoyed so much, Cnaiur makes himself undeniable. My God, how do you stand before a spectacle of war like that and have anything left to attempt to be the one he demands.

I think one thing that makes these characters so memorable to me is the inner struggles their own compassion causes them. For Cnaiur and Kellhus it doesn't come out so much until the second book, but Achamian has his issues about using Inrau and being worthy of Emenet, Esmenet sometimes can't help but fling her profession in people's faces (to protect them from herself maybe? too painful to believe they could think more of her? or to protect them from being associated with her?) view post

The No-God posted 15 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by saintjon, Auditor

The creepiest No-God moment in TWP was when Kellhus saw him hanging from that circle. Suppose the Dunyain are diametrically opposed to what the No-God embodies. The Logos brings Kellhus to certainty when it's working it's magic in him. The No-God, with the constant questions about what others see, the demand to know, seems to imply that uncertainty is a big thing with... whatever the No-God is supposed to be.

I think that since hanging there tied to a corpse kellhus cared about was his most uncertain moment in the book the re-assertion of the suppressed animal (he lost control of his face and wept!) in him opened him up to some awareness of Mog-Pharau maybe? My best guess is that Mog-Pharau therefore is an embodiment of disharmony between the animal and the the intellect (hands folded like a monk, legs hunched like a beast) and that the Dunyain might do better to harmonize the animal and the intellect instead of trying to suppress the one with the other.

Is the No-God also the Darkness that Comes Before? The fear that springs up in the trackless waste between people, driving them to live like they're living an endless conflict? view post

Apocalypse Now posted 15 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetApocalypse Now by saintjon, Auditor

Yes at first magic threw Kellhus for a loop too don't forget. Also, the fact that he wept for Serwe, lost control of his face, shows that not all chips have fallen in Dunyain favour. Cnaiur is becoming something outside of his understanding, as evidenced by Kellhus' reaction when he emerged from the sea. It reminds me of Tommy Lee Jones' speech in Men in Black, which ended with "Imagine what you'll KNOW tomorrow." view post

Like father like son? posted 15 July 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by saintjon, Auditor

That sounds very likely Replay.

It's possible that Achamian deducing that Kellhus could see the Consult spies all along would be just as much of a barrier in his mind to teaching Kellhus the Gnosis as the usurpation of Serwe. There aren't a whole lot of mental barriers that rascally rabbit can't dig his way under though. view post

Women In the Three Seas posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; AWomen In the Three Seas by saintjon, Auditor

***********more spoilers*******************

No you definitely have a point there about the inchoroi. The only 2 Inchoroi we've seen in the act didnt' leave anything (damn my western prudishness) where it would cause a reproductive effect. Several reasons they would've wanted to avoid that with Esmi, but with the one at the end of TWP, having his way with a captive, the opportunity was definitely there.

I did notice part of the revolutionary appeal Kellhus was building for himself was his elevation and esteem of women. Is it just me, or is that part of how he wound up investing part of himself in Serwe, part that made him lose the control he'd had since a child? view post

On the subject of Chorae posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; AOn the subject of Chorae by saintjon, Auditor

Hm, if I were a sorceror I'd try a similar effect to Akka dropping a building on people's heads, maybe make a gale-force wind and try to at least lessen the range. Then again, although Earwa's magic-users are a potent bunch, I have no idea what kind of effort it would take to whip up a wind that strong in response to a volley. view post

Dunyain posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; ADunyain by saintjon, Auditor

would it be a spoiler to ask what sort of role the Dunyain had before they found Ishual? I'm guessing they opted not to choose sides in the Apocalypse, laid low and defended themselves when necessary. Were they persecuated by the Norsirai, or wanderers by choice? view post

Women In the Three Seas posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; AWomen In the Three Seas by saintjon, Auditor

At the same time there is a pretty big faction of fantasy afficionados who will love you like a brother for doing it. For my part, the Consult being sexual deviants at large doesn't make a pleasant reading experience, but they're the villains and it goes a long way reinforcing the general creepiness/danger they represent.

Wow being told you're a crafty bugger by someone who's got you pretty bamboozled with their protagonist is quite a compliment. Thanks! view post

On the subject of Chorae posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; AOn the subject of Chorae by saintjon, Auditor

Yeah I was being a bit of an RPG twink even bringing it up lol. Forget what I said! The Schools are dominant enough!!! <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: --> view post

Women In the Three Seas posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; AWomen In the Three Seas by saintjon, Auditor

I like my fantasy deep and my wings medium, myself lol. I read in Men's Health you can get stoned (or at least buzzed) on your own pheromones your brain will kick out if you eat something REALLY spicy, but not knowing where the threshhold of this chemical safety net is I don't want to trial and error it. Kind of a wuss that way, I have eaten my way through some pretty vicious curries though. view post

On the subject of Chorae posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; AOn the subject of Chorae by saintjon, Auditor

I moved from being influenced by reading the Warrior-Prophet straight into 8-bit theater. Red Mage is secretly my buddy Eric in disguise, I know it! view post

Fantasy posted 15 July 2004 in Literature DiscussionFantasy by saintjon, Auditor

I think it allows ASoIaF to resonate more strongly with my life that at the beginning of A Game of Thrones we are presented with a world that's all but dead to magic. Martin has made it so that we, the readers, are on as much of a quest to find the magic in his world as his characters are. Over at sff people were posting ideas of what they thought the story was about, and I had to point out that above all I thought it was about magic returning to a mundane world. view post

Fantasy posted 16 July 2004 in Literature DiscussionFantasy by saintjon, Auditor

I guess some people just aren't into it like that though. I've been in about... oh.... 10,000 discussions <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> over in sffworld about ASoIaF and I was always surprised that so many people thought Bran's chapters were boring. He has been removed from much of the intrigue of the other plots, but he is the character who is being tied most strongly into the deeper veigns of magic and myth in the world. The original crow dream in A Game of Thrones just blew me away. Ditto Jojen's story about the crannogman who went to the great tournament at Harrenhal. So definitely I enjoy reading his chapters.

I think I wouldn't be a very good critic, it seems I'm easily pleased compared to so many people, but there aren't any PoV's I feel Martin has failed to deliver on at some point or other. view post

A Game of Thrones posted 16 July 2004 in Literature DiscussionA Game of Thrones by saintjon, Auditor

Although I haven't attempted to re-read the whole series I have found it rewarding to go back over certain parts from time to time, probably the part I've gone back to most are the last few chapters about Arya in A Storm of Swords, although a few times I have gone right back to AGoT to read some parts about Ned (my favourite character ever, I've taken flack for it but I don't care). view post

What introduced you to philosophy? posted 16 July 2004 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat introduced you to philosophy? by saintjon, Auditor

Well, I read the Art of War, The Book of Five Rings and the Tao of Pooh if that worth anything <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: -->

Seriously, I'll sit and ponder and discuss and whatnot but in the academic philosophical world I'm pretty lost. Guess this will be my lurkin' forum around here! view post

The value of a life posted 16 July 2004 in Philosophy DiscussionThe value of a life by saintjon, Auditor

I also agree that you can't really evaluate a person's worth, just because there'd be so much conflict over who gets to hold the measuring stick (or put the numbers on it in the first place).

My grandma isn't a scientist, or an artist, or anything like that. But, her husband died when she was relatively young and she was left to raise 6 kids with no money. There isn't a single person among my aunts and uncles who could tell you how she did it. She's a hero. There aren't going to be any public awards for her, no gala dinners celebrating her accomplishment, but she made a contribution of preserving her family through a very difficult time. I don't think most of the people who would attempt to establish that sort of worht of a life on her would take that into account. They'd see an old retired woman, with little money and little to show for her life beyond a family of fundamentally decent people.

I think for many criminals it is easier to die anyways, and for some of them life in prison becomes just that, their life. I think we need to think outside the box a bit, I mean, no one's going to reform if they don't want to, anyways. We need to always be thinking of a better way to get through to these people so they will want to improve their lives.

Good point about forgiveness, but there is still the duty to protect the people of society. view post


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