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legatus Auditor | joined 04 July 2004 | 109 posts

My thoughts on TWP posted 05 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetMy thoughts on TWP by legatus, Auditor

From what I can gather, the Nonmen are native to Earwa, while the Inchoroi are the offworlders. And after doing a bried scan of TWP, a discussion between Achamian and Esmenet about the stars would seem to back that up. Here's the relevant passage (selective text from page 99):

"Do you think they speak our future, Akka? The stars?"
A momentary pause. "No."
"The Nonmen believe the sky is endlessly empty, an infinite void..."
"Empty? How could that be?"
"Even more, they think the stars are faraway suns."
"How could they believe such a thing?" she asked. "The sun moves in circles about the world. The stars move in circles about the Nail." The thought struck her that the Nail of Heaven itself might be another world, one with a thousand thousand suns. Such a sky that would be!
Achamian shrugged. "Supposedly that's what the Inchoroi told them. That they sailed here from stars that were suns."

That exchange seems to indicate that the Nonmen base their understanding of the stars on what they've been told by the Inchoroi, who are the ones that actually arrived from distant stars. If the Nonmen had sailed to Earwa from the stars themselves, they could simply base their knowledge upon firsthand experience rather than Inchoroi hearsay. view post

Now Reading... posted 06 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by legatus, Auditor

I'm almost finished with my second read through of The Sorcerer: Metamorphosis by Jack Whyte. I'd read the book out of order before, but now that I've read all the earlier books in his Dream of Eagles series and related material, I figured I'd read it again in its proper place at the end of the series.

Anyway, Jack Whyte's take on the Arthurian legend was really well done. Definitely a good read. view post

Ages posted 06 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionAges by legatus, Auditor

Another twenty something here. 24 specifically. view post

The Title posted 06 July 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Title by legatus, Auditor

I cast my vote for The Thousandfold Thought as well.

I came out of The Warrior Prophet wondering what the bloody hell TTT might be--an extension of the logos, a newfound combination of dunyain philosophy and sorcerous metaphysics pioneered by Moengus, something obvious and explicitly explained in TWP that I overlooked like an idiot?--, so that title serves only to pique my curiosity further and exacerbate my impatience to get my hands on the next book. WSS doesn't evoke that kind of response though, nor does it hint at the philosophical underpinnings from the earlier books that fans will have come to appreciate and expect.

So for return readers, who I figure will make up the majority of the readership for the next book, it's TTT all the way. view post

First Word that Comes to Mind posted 06 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by legatus, Auditor

Death view post

Now listening to... posted 06 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by legatus, Auditor

I'm listening to Flogging Molly's Swagger album (with The Likes of You Again playing at the moment) with the Children Of Dune soundtrack queued up for later. I can't wait till August when Flogging Molly's scheduled to come through Toronto. view post

My thoughts on TWP posted 06 July 2004 in The Warrior ProphetMy thoughts on TWP by legatus, Auditor

If I recall correctly, the humans that re-entered Golgotterath after the long years it had remained hidden by a Nonman glamour were members of an old gnostic school who were shown the way by a Nonman sorcerer, though I can't remember the school's name or that of the sorcerer offhand. Apparently, delving into the Tekne / Inchoroi fleshcraft warped them enough to start seeing themselves as Inchoroi successor, and thus the Consult was born. Although I suspect the surviving Inchoroi likely played a role in the warping of the school, albeit from the shadows until they had been sufficiently twisted to accept the brothers readily.

Also, I seem to remember Achamian saying that they found many powerful but unfinished Tekne artifacts that hadn't been employed by the Inchoroi in their previous wars with the Nonmen (ie: the No-God). What I wonder, however, is whether the skin spies were another example of these artifacts started but never finished by the Inchoroi or whether the current members of the Consult have mastered the art of fleshcraft to the point where they're able to create wholly original artifacts of their own not based on work started by the Inchoroi.

As for the Inchoroi brothers themselves, I get the feeling that the demonic embodiment we see at the end of TWP is merely one of the many forms the brothers are capable of taking. Their original forms, whatever they might've been, have likely been lost to the annals of time. In line with this, I think the other brother is the Synthese, a form he chose so he could watch over the progress of the Holy War. Sarcellus calls the Synthese the "shell" of the Old Father, after all, and he's described as an Inchoroi Prince, so it stands to reason he's the other brother and that their forms are alterable via their fleshcraft. view post

Essay by Bakker on posted 07 July 2004 in Interviews and ReviewsEssay by Bakker on by legatus, Auditor

Great essay. I'll have to remember to use that line of reasoning on the value of fantasy lit the next time I get a dismissive look about whatever I happen to be reading. view post

Names and Pronunciation posted 07 July 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by legatus, Auditor

I remember mentally pronouncing Cnaiur with an awkward soft c from start to finish on my first read through of TDTCB... then I got to the appendix.

"Nay-yur? Who-and-the-what-now? Ohhhhhh... silent c."

I felt rightly foolish <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Even so, I really enjoyed the exotic sounding names, since I felt it helped create a tone of cultural richness, uniqueness and diversity that wouldn't have been as well served by more common sounding names.

I'd certainly like to hear Scott's renditions of some of the names though, in any case. There's likely a good many I'm still pronouncing incorrectly in my head. view post

Sex posted 11 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionSex by legatus, Auditor

Things are seeming fairly disproportionate at this point, but another male here. view post

First Word that Comes to Mind posted 12 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by legatus, Auditor

runneth view post

Best character posted 12 July 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeBest character by legatus, Auditor

Achamian was a character I could really like without any reservation. He certainly comes off as flawed and fairly indecisive, but his underlying strength of character belies that outer weakness. Certainly an easy character to sympathize with.

I also really liked Cnaiur, and even Kellhus to a lesser extent, but it's more of a love hate thing in his case. I can't help begrudging him his incessant manipulation, in spite of it being his greatest asset. I just want to smack some of the hapless idiots he draws into his web, which is probably another reason I like Cnaiur so much; he's cunning, paranoid and cracked enough to resist that damnable dunyain. view post

Sex posted 13 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionSex by legatus, Auditor

My first thought about the gender disparity among forum goers here is that it's likely related to the general lack of strong female characters in Scott's first couple of novels in the series. I agree with his reasons for choosing to portray a male dominated society in a visceral, realistic way, but at the same time, it's a choice that might alienate many female readers.

On the other hand, with the limited cross section of PoN fans these forums represent, it might just be that the female fans just haven't made their way here yet. Who knows. view post

Now listening to... posted 13 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by legatus, Auditor

I'm listening to Hide's Hide Your Face album, and seeing Ministry mentioned earlier in the thread, I can't help but gape at the blatant similarity between 'Drink Or Die' and 'Jesus Built My Hotrod'.

Hide either ripped off the music for D.O.D. from them or I'm hearing things. The lyrics are different, sure, not to mention in Japanese, but the music is way too close for it to be merely coincidence. I wonder if he ever admitted to D.O.D. being Ministry inspired or some such, or whether it just went unnoticed. view post

Now listening to... posted 13 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by legatus, Auditor

There's a lot of range to Hide's music from song to song, but the vast majority of his stuff really doesn't strike me as particularly industrial. Some of it certainly is (Doubt, Pose and Bacteria come to mind), but his style is really eclectic, and I'd only clearly label a small percentage of his stuff as industrial.

In the case of D.O.D., the tone of the song is different than Jesus Built My Hotrod, as though the core of the song was sanitized to churn out a faster, cleaner bastard child--a red-headed one at that. I still like it regardless, but it loses much of the industrial flair as a result.

As another word of warning, Hide has a somewhat typical, Japanese rocker voice: a little on the effeminate side, and potentially grating. Also, I have to be in the mood to listen to Hide or a lot of his stuff strikes me as altogether too upbeat.

Addendum: Much like a large portion of the rest of Japan's mainstream music scene of yore, Hide doesn't entirely escape the taint of the dreaded bubblegum pop syndrome either. In spite of being a fan, I certainly like to badmouth his music a lot, huh? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> view post

Women In the Three Seas posted 15 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; AWomen In the Three Seas by legatus, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Replay&quot;:yrlnjwv8
I think another problem that authors face with things such as this is that if they go to deep into the subject and portray it as harshly as it can be in real life, people will often think the writer has a few screws loose and is only writing to satisfy his own perversions.[/quote:yrlnjwv8]
I couldn't help but smirk reading this, since it's exactly what happened with a friend of mine that I'd recommended TDTCB to. She'd moaned about the number of sadistic characters in the Sword of Truth series and was ready to write off the fantasy genre in general, though admittedly, she wasn't much of a fantasy fan to start with. My initial reaction, of course, was to tell her that Goodkind was a hack, and not really a representation of particularly good fantasy anyway, then went on to recommend Scott's PoN series. No more than a few days later, after a complaint or two of not being able to remember all the exotic names and places thrown around, she'd settled into an 'oh great, another sadistic author' reaction and wouldn't listen to any line of reasoning running contrary to that.

It's an unfortunate reaction, and one I'd hope is limited to the minority of readers, but I think it's almost inevitable when it comes to material approaching any degree of brutal realism. Some people just want idealized, sanitized fantasy worlds, I suppose. Regardless, I'd certainly miss the harsher, more visceral fantasy worlds if squeamish readers were catered to exclusively.

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:yrlnjwv8
I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse[/quote:yrlnjwv8]
The dangling promise of significance, how it mocks me! I hadn't even considered any gender issues with regards to the Dunyain until now. I was too busy hammering out theories regarding gender roles within the Consult, or rather, their potential lack of gender roles--moreover, their lack of gender altogether.

[Warning: There's a spoiler or two woven into my theory below.]

The way I see it, the Inchoroi may be a genderless, asexual race, either by way of evolution or as a result of Tekne experiments done on themselves. By extension, it seems reasonable that their creations, like the Sranc and skin spies, might also be genderless, and perhaps even incapable of independent reproduction of any kind, asexual or otherwise, without the Tekne. The dread mankind feels towards the No-God would certainly be lessened for races who could escape the slow death brought on by the deadening of all wombs--whose continued survival isn't directly tied to sexual reproduction.

That said, the Inchoroi are still self-professed sexual beings, but I'm of the opinion that their sexuality serves an entirely different purpose than reproduction at this point. The Inchoroi, and in turn the Consult, use sex as a means of utter domination, emotional and physical, not to propagate their species. The skin spies show an element of this domination, where sexual gratification is derived from the violent fulfillment of the wishes of their masters. Through this mechanism, the Inchoroi--the Old Fathers--hold yet another level of control and loyalty over their servants. More directly, a morbid form of puppet-like domination is shown at the end of TWP, where the raped captives were reanimated and shambled about in a mockery of their former selves according to the will of their rapists, both Sranc and demonic Inchoroi. Then there's the more subtle example from TDTCB where a powerful sexual influence is wielded over Esmi to draw information about Achamian and the Mandate out of her. Sexuality is certainly a tool for the Consult, and a powerful one at that, but not a tool of the biological imperative.

I'm likely filling in gaps with nonsense though, so I might be better off switching gears and coming up with crackpot theories about the significance of gender for the Dunyain instead <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post

Week Two Scene Nominations [CLOSED] posted 19 July 2004 in Member Written WorksWeek Two Scene Nominations [CLOSED] by legatus, Auditor

I wanted to write a submission last week, but couldn't find the time, so if I plan on getting around to it this week, I might as well have a say in the scene. Here's a vote for the break-in scenario, nudging it into a narrow lead. view post

Now listening to... posted 21 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by legatus, Auditor

Quote: &quot;drosdelnoch&quot;:h47r7yno
also been listening to The Wall by Pink Floyd[/quote:h47r7yno]
"All in all you're just another brick in the wall."

I listened to the first disc of that album today, with some early Pink Floyd singles mixed in for good measure. Great stuff. view post

Like father like son? posted 21 July 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by legatus, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Iceman&quot;:1zvqwem1
I consider it more likely that the Consult considered the Cisharium and Moënghus as an obstacle. First trying to control them, and when that failed it gradually turned into outright war. At the moment I can’t see why Moënghus would initiate a war against the Consult.[/quote:1zvqwem1]
My view on the war between the Consult and the Cishaurim is similar. The speed with which they made an overt move against Kellhus once they realised he could see their skin spies and thus mitigate their manipulation over the Holy War speaks to the severity of their concern over the threat he poses to their plans. It stands to reason that they'd attribute an equal level of threat to Moengus, and the Consult has had decades to observe him and gauge the danger of his abilities, whereas they acted against Kellhus in mere months. Granted, I assume they'd draw parallels between father and son, and thus move more quickly against Kellhus, but even so, it seems very likely that they'd have also tried to dislodge Moengus from his sphere of influence within the Cishaurim, leading to an all out conflict when that failed.

I do get the impression that the Consult's investigation regarding the identity of the Dunyain is an immediate response to their observation of Kellhus and his Dunyani, however, so I get the feeling that even in the decades of watching and warring with Moengus, he's managed to keep them in the dark about a great many things, including his connection to the Dunyain. I imagine they've made inferences about the link now that Kellhus has made his appearance, with Cnaiur and his insights into their sect in tow, and shed more light on where these mysterious men that can see through their disguises came from though. view post

Do you believe a God exists? posted 23 July 2004 in Philosophy DiscussionDo you believe a God exists? by legatus, Auditor

I believe in the value of doubt. Most of my religious beliefs end up coming back to the same basic sense of uncertainty, since in the absence of compelling evidence, I have trouble putting a great deal of faith in any one religion over another; and I have an equally hard time dismissing them out of hand.

I do like to entertain certain amorphous beliefs about the manner in which spirituality and science can coexist without conflict, but it's more an ever evolving way for me to look at the world as more than the sum of its parts than a religious creed of any sort.

Edit: And to answer the topic question, I believe in the possibility of God, but not necessarily that he does in fact exist. I like to believe that the hand of creation put the big bang into motion, for example, but whether that creative force was the hand of God or the cataclysmic result of quantum fluctuations, I can't say for certain. I do enjoy the fact that it's currently a mystery though. view post

First Word that Comes to Mind posted 26 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by legatus, Auditor

sex view post

First Word that Comes to Mind posted 26 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by legatus, Auditor

burden view post

Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 28 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by legatus, Auditor

I see marriage as an affirmation of love and commitment between two people. A gay couple is no less capable of being in love and commited to one another than a straight couple, so it seems silly to disallow them the right to make an affirmation of those things by way of marriage. view post

Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 28 July 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by legatus, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Aldarion&quot;:1jb8rclm
Before I can be persuaded fully to be in favor of this, I want to see a complete overhaul of the custody system. Because if we have a situation in which there isn't an expected husband/wife duo, we better have a legal provision for how to divy up custody in case of divorce. Otherwise, all hell might break loose.[/quote:1jb8rclm]
I doubt all hell would break loose, as I imagine custody hearings could still be handled on a case by case basis, but I do agree that it would be wise to examine changes to as many related laws as possible when tackling the marriage issue.

There have been a few stumbling blocks in the wake of legalised gay marriage up here, for example, since related divorce laws weren't revised to coincide with the legalisation of gay marriage. The situation with a gay couple being allowed to get married but having trouble breaking things off if the marriage doesn't work out because divorce laws still speak in strict terms of a man and a woman could've been avoided had legalisation been more thoroughly handled in the first place.

I do worry that trying to be too inclusive when it comes to overhauling related laws may draw out the process to an unreasonable degree though. view post

Dont be ashamed (Harry Potter) posted 28 July 2004 in Literature DiscussionDont be ashamed (Harry Potter) by legatus, Auditor

Harry Potter's a guilty pleasure for me too. They're certainly not the type of book that really makes you think, but they are a lot of fun to read nonetheless. Hopefully Harry gets past his whiny, self-important teenerager phase by the next book though <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Also, the movie adaptations give me an excuse to take my nieces to the theatre now and then. I'm not seeing the movies for myself, of course. It's all for the kids. No really! <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> view post

Do You Play Any MMRPG's? posted 31 July 2004 in Author Q &amp; ADo You Play Any MMRPG's? by legatus, Auditor

Sweet Sejenus, I certainly hope not! Considering the special addictive quality most MMORPGs tend to share, I can just picture Scott spending many an hour glued to his monitor grinding away on level treadmill after level treadmill, all the while neglecting to get around to ever finishing The Thousandfold Thought. It's another sad tale of MMORPG addiction waiting to happen, I tell you!

Of course, the total lack of any semblance of willpower when it comes to online games may be an affliction only I suffer, but I somehow doubt it <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post

Release Dates posted 03 August 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeRelease Dates by legatus, Auditor

[url=http&#58;//www&#46;princeofnothing&#46;com/Darkness_That_otpb&#46;jpg:1963ni3o]This[/url:1963ni3o] is the Canadian cover, which I'm rather fond of. The only alternate cover I know of is [url=http&#58;//www&#46;princeofnothing&#46;com/Darkness%20(1)&#46;jpg:1963ni3o]this one[/url:1963ni3o], which very well might be the UK cover, but I'm not entirely sure.

In any case, the second cover seems more in line with what I'd expect from a generic fantasy cover, but I definitely find the first one to be the more slick and stylish version. view post

Online RPG? posted 04 August 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionOnline RPG? by legatus, Auditor

Do you mean something like a simple IRC chat in role, an adaptation of the D20 system or something similar for the Three Seas setting and played online, or something else entirely? It's been so long since I've played an RPG that wasn't a PC game, I seriously doubt my imagination is up to the task of a more open ended roleplaying game. My mind's been too severely rotted by videogames. view post

First Word that Comes to Mind posted 04 August 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by legatus, Auditor

BANZAI! view post

odd posted 04 August 2004 in The Darkness That Comes Beforeodd by legatus, Auditor

I've always thought it was more likely for a midwestern American (Fargo is at the fore in this line of thought <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->) to say 'aboot' than a Canadian. With the accent variations between Ontario, the maritime provinces, and the prairies though, of which I've heard very little from the latter two, I suppose some Canadians might actually pronounce it that way as well.

Here in Ontario, however, I've never heard it either. view post


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