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posts by Deadshade Commoner | joined 28 Jun 2006 | 3

Inchoroi motivations and the quantum mechanics posted 28 Jun 2006, 13:06 in Author Q & AInchoroi motivations and the quantum mechanics by Deadshade, Commoner

Hello all This is my first post here and it is motivated by the fact that I appreciated the PoN books enough to make some research and happened on this site . Actually even if in my opinion the PoN is not on a par with S.Erikson's saga , it ranks easily on my top 5 of fantasy litterature . My point of posting is that I have read the PoN with a rather specific point of view and was surprised how well my interpretation fitted the overall theme . However having some still unresolved issues (or wonderings) I would appreciate to have some comments from those who appear to have spent already a long time on analysing S.Bakker's work . On top I understood that S.Bakker also sometimes comments here even though a (fast) scan through the threads didn't yield any post with S.Bakker name , so it is probably very rare . I also apologize for a rather longwinded post but I assume that people who like S.Bakker are not afraid of long and sometimes complicated readings :) Now the PoN issue that has really interested me most was the question of the Inchoroi and their motivations . For the metaphysical interpretations I choose to consider that Ëarwa is the Earth . Following from there I used the Occam's razor to evacuate any unnecessary assumptions of speculative nature . So the Inchoroi are an extraterrestrial race that crashed with their spaceship on Ëarwa . They are a highly developped technological race because they are able to navigate through the Void (space) and master genetic engineering that enables them not only to create biological robots (Sranc etc) but to achieve a sort of immortality . As they came from somewhere before crashing on Ëarwa , what were they doing in the space ? There are 2 clues . The ship was huge (thousands of thousands what makes millions) and that excludes the idea of mere space exploration . They seemingly didn't master all of their technology anymore and that excludes the idea of conquest/colonisation because you wouldn't send in the war an army that ignores the use of its weapons . So that only leaves the idea that they were fleeing from something and that the Inchoroi gathered in the ship were not selected for their knowledge or competence but rather were a haphazard crowd of refugees whose mastery of the technology of their race was average at best . Once stranded , what would their motivations be ? First to survive and second to find protection against whatever they were fleeing from . The former got them in the wars against the Non men where they used the whole arsenal of their technology - biorobotic armies (Srancs) , genetic/biological warfare (Womb Plague) and the No God . The No God in that context is an AI (artificial intelligence) that is artificial enough to be a tool yet intelligent enough to be on the brink of consciousness (hence its confused questionning "Who am I ?") . And obviously as it is material , it has to be protected from the magical(hence the chorae in its housing) and can be destroyed - or rather "unplugged" - materially (hence the Heron Spear) . The latter is more difficult as there are not many clues . We are told that they strive to avoid "damnation" . I do not take that literally (aka Hell , Gods , souls etc) but rather symbolically . The "damnation" is what they fled from and what might still find them on Ëarwa . Interestingly there are also non Inchoroi on Ëarwa who are "damned" - the sorcerors . While it might be quite another concept , I make the assumption (can't avoid this one :)) that it is the same concept and the same cause . A weak support for that assumption is coming from the fact that the sorceror's "damnation" is coming from the Tusk which is a couple of thousands years posterior to the Inchoroi crash . If that assumption holds then the Scriptures have an Inchoroi origin and the "sin" of the Inchorois is of same nature as the one of the sorcerors and ... Akka might find a common cause with the Consult :) Now while I can't define what that "sin" is (only S.Bakker could do that) , I can make an educated guess with what we are told . For that I compare the Inchoroi (and the sorcerors) with the Dunyain . The Dunyain are strict material determinists in the Kant/Newton sense . They have honed their skills in the practice of Logos to a point where they apply determinism to psychology . However their Probabilist Trance is classical like in the statistical thermodynamics and finds its limitation once that the very essence of the subject ("soul" , particle) is questioned . What I believe is that the Inchoroi discovered quantum mechanics or its litterary equivalent - for me it's the thousandfold thought . Along the same lines , it is the thousandfold thought that founds sorcery even though probably with a more limited understanding than the one of the Inchoroi . And the root of quantum mechanics is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle together with the quantum entanglement . The former tells us that the determinism is an illusion and that Uncertainty , hence freedom rules the Universe . The latter tells us that at a certain "fundamental" level systems in interaction stay in interaction forever however far in time or space they might be . All that is the negation of the Dunyain beliefs and probably the source of "sin" and "damnation" mentioned above . I have to stop here . Not only because I got longer than itended but also because beyond is only speculation about how the author might have realised the synthesis between the physical (material) and methaphysical implications of quantum mechanics . And if you had the kind patience to read as far as here , 2 questions : - How familiar is S.Bakker with quantum mechanics ? - what kind of monster is Kelhus who seems to transcend even the quantum mechanics limitations ? P.S English being not my mother language , you will excuse my imperfections . view post

posted 29 Jun 2006, 10:06 in Author Q & AInchoroi motivations and the quantum mechanics by Deadshade, Commoner

[quote="Warrior-Poet":ju1ejs7q]Well before posting an answer i need to think deeply but the reason you are not finding posts by S. Bakker is because that is not the name he uses on this board, his username is Cujara Cinmoi. You wont find any recent posts by him however because hes been rather busy. Now I need to go think.[/quote:ju1ejs7q] Ah thanks ! I didn't know that - so if I see a post by Cujara Cinmoi , it is S.Bakker ? As for the size of the spaceship , the TTT mentions thousands of thousands aka millions . While it is not mentioned how many Inchorois were there before and after crash , one thing is sure . It has been built to transport millions . And you would build a ship of that size only if you planned a conquest or a big scale evacuation . The lack of mastery of the technology by the crew is showing that the civilisation on their original planet was in a decay process . Of course we can eliminate the hypothesis that the decay process took place ONLY on the ship because they are immortal for all practical purposes . One could also imagine that they simply left their planet for natural reasons (like lack of ressources , climate change etc) . I also exclude that hypothesis because in such a slow process they would have made sure thay have on the ship all the skills and knowledge necessary to live elsewhere . That's why what is left is that this decay process happened brutally and on a big scale and I call them "refugees" . Also to make it clear where I come from - I have a PhD in physics and am specialized in quantum mechanics . That's why I was struck by the analogy between the issues in the PoN and the issues in modern physics . There is f.ex an interesting speculation by K.Thorne that the "freedom" of the man is actually an emerging characteristic of basic quantum mechanic processes at the molecular level in the brain that is by definition governed by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle . So in a sense concepts like Outside are indeed very real but do not need supernatural interpretations (Occam's razor) . However I admit that I like very much the litterary process that translates real but not very romantical concepts in anthropocentrical terms (aka souls , demons etc) and that is the cause of my preference for fantasy litterature . The work on Quantum gravity (that is still work in progress) is showing that space and time themselves are subject to quantification . The Universe at quantum gravity scales is indeed so deeply alien that you can easily call it an "Outside" as oposed to the aspects of the Universe at macroscopic (human) scales . The origin of the Universe itself (the well known "Big bang") happens in the Quantum Gravity region . So for litterary purposes I have no pain to call it God for lack of better physical definition - that's the freedom of a writer :) P.S As for Kelhus who is in my vocabulary discovering the quantum gravity (while the Dunyain are still in Newtonian concepts) and in PoN vocabulary discovering the true Voice of God , I can also offer one day an interpretation of why sorcerors (and Inchoroi) are actually not intrinsically "damned" . And of course the following Caveat : I would not DARE to think one second that all of the above is anything else than an amusing game playing with analogies between an original litterary creation and a region of human knowledge I know specifically well . I ignore everything of the real author's motivations and interpretations and they may be completely different from my analogies . view post

posted 30 Jun 2006, 16:06 in Author Q & AInchoroi motivations and the quantum mechanics by Deadshade, Commoner

[quote="zarathustra":3qirdiot]Massive props to dead shade for giving me a fresh way to look at the books. Its possible to see sorcery then as a way to tap into different quantum realities by calling a (slightly) different world into existence i.e. sorceors are able to "fly" by percieving a world where they are actually on solid ground. Simiarly the teleportation practiced by Kellhus and to a limited extent by others could be seen coherent with quantum principles. .[/quote:3qirdiot] Yes :) That's broadly the way I am looking at it . I don't say that every fantastic piece of litterature can be looked at this way (for instance Lord of the Rings cannot) but PoN for me very obviously can (because of the dialectic souls vs sorcery) . Actually it is not a "different" reality . There is only one (quantum) reality . But the quantum aspect of the reality is hidden at human scales . It is always there but you can't see it , feel it or tell it . There is f.ex this paradox of particle/wave duality equivalent to the duality of utteral and unutteral strings . The quantum object can only be described by its both aspects like sorcery can only be done with 2 strings . Both seem to contradict themselves yet both ARE the object . That's why the "Copenhague school" that tried to formulate an interpretation of quantum mechanics had to postulate the Complementarity Principle . A quantum object is neither a particle nor a wave but is described by both complementary aspects of its being . That doesn't prevent it to show itself to you ALWAYS only like one or the other . The light shows itself to you like a particle (photon) in a photoelectric cell and it "is" a small ball . Or the light shows itself to you like a wave (electromagnetic wave) in your radio and it "is" an ondulation . Now at first look that might be only wordplays hiding our poor understanding . Yet we can't help that it happens like that and the implications lead to puzzling questions about existence . If light can manifest itself like a small ball then it is in a precise place with a precise speed . But if light manifests itself like a wave then it is everywhere and its "speed" is like the speed of the waves in the ocean where the water only moves up and down whereby you think that it advances with the wave . So is it somewhere or is it everywhere ? And that question is already more fundamental than simple analogies with balls and waves . So now we can take something that really should be a ONLY a small ball - an electron . And surprisingly the electron can also manifest itself like a wave in an interference experience . The electron has no precise position , it has only a probability of existence all over the space . So it doesn't "look" like a ball at all , it "looks" like a fog filling the whole space . Only if you catch it and hold it in your hand does it become (hmmmm become doesn't express rightly the concept but ...) a small ball . So a sorceror in a (quantic :)) probabilistic trance is observing the probabilities of where what MIGHT exist . He is observing the full quantical REALITY of the world . And now through his dual process (utteral/unutteral) - don't fear it has no equivalent in the real QM :) - he brings about the collapse of the quantum wave function (this one is a real QM process) and what was only undetermined and invisible yet EXISTING in its own right before becomes determined and visible after . The uncertainty rules :) However and that's why the Dunyain are hopelessly outdated , this wave collapse is not at all deterministic . You can put a small ball (an electron) in a hole and find it a bit later in a quite another hole . That's btw a quite real effect - the tunnel effect that makes among others work your computer :) The before gives slight indications for the after but doesn't fully determine it . It only looks like that as long as you stay on the crude big human scale . Sorry but I can't recommend you any suitable introduction to QM - I am certainly not the right person for it . Especially because there are still too many unsolved issues and one of the biggest is the question of INTERPRETATION of QM . Actually the easiest way is through mathematics but I am well aware that while it is the intrinsically easiest , not everybody shares the point of view that mathematics are easy :) If one excludes mathematics , then only words are available and then you are stuck with the language inadequacies to "explain" how something can simultaneously be here and everywhere . However if you are not afraid of concepts that have no analogy on our human scale and can't be summarised with a picture then I guess any book in your preferred bookstore called like "Principles of QM" will do . Look in it - if you see too many mathematical symbols then it is not suitable unless you are familiar with hilbertian vectorial spaces . If not , then it will be a good beginning . P.S Ah like with Dante , remember "Abandon every hope , ye who enter here" because you will not get much "understanding" . I couldn't say that I "understand" QM - I only have an idea what the questions are :) And yes the string theory does fit in . It is one of the competing theories for quantum gravity that is still an unsolved issue . Quantum gravity problems are much , much more complicated than "classical" QM problems because they touch the structure of time and space itself . And as electrons happen in time and space then quantification of both amounts to having an unwritten piece playing on an unbuilt stage ... view post


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