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posts by anor277 Didact | joined 23 Jun 2004 | 375

The No-God posted 23 Jun 2004, 13:06 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by anor277, Didact

I thought this was the appropriate section for this question, rather than the option of asking the author (and cheating?). In TWP we learn a little more of the No-God, an absolutely chilling entity, raised or summoned by the Consult and loosed upon men and non-men alike. Interestingly, the No-God possesses mortal worshippers, the Sranc and the Scylvendi. So to my question, how does the No-God attract such mortal worship; he possesses none of the usual attributes, love, forgiveness etc. and his appearance in the world was marked by widespread infant still-birth. The No-God could certainly not offer his worshippers fecundity (maybe the Inchoroi didn’t need conventional modes of reproduction). Did the Scylvendi worship the No-God to gain prowess in war in return? Ideas welcome. view post

posted 30 Jun 2004, 06:06 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by anor277, Didact

@Loose, you're right, the Sranc are artefacts (rather unspeakable ones!) bred by the Inchoroi. As you point out, the Scylvendi are manipulable and this mortal race somewhy pledged their worship to the No-God. (Maybe it was a case of, "We Scylvendi are so hard that we worship a monstrous demon"). As regards the Heron Spear (a gigawatt laser?) I have no idea. Achamian said it was lost when the Scylvendi sacked Cenei (after the No-God's fall obviously). I agree that the No-god is a highly original creation. view post

posted 30 Jun 2004, 12:06 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by anor277, Didact

@Sovin, as far as we know the Sranc (and the skin-spies) were bred to specifications. From memory one of the skin spies anticipated a world where no wombs quicken and all hopes wither - I don't think it's such a long stretch to expect absolute loyalty from them towards the No-god. RE the Scylvendi I think it's reasonably certain that they fought for the No-god before (and after) the 1st apocalypse. In the epic fight between Cnaiür and Sarcellus, Sarcellus says to the Scylvendi, "you and I worship the same god". Interestingly there is an indication that the Scylvendi declared war on humanity at large (the Norsirai at least) after the Norsirai killed their god. Off topic, I don't think the No-god is anything like Sauron, the Dark Lord is not nearly as frightening. view post

posted 08 Jul 2004, 13:07 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by anor277, Didact

Just two points arising from a re-read of TDTCB (amazingly clearer now after TWP). 1. Cnaiür says unequivocally that the Scylvendi worshipped the Tusk before the No-God's arrival (they called him the Lokung). 2. He says that his chorae was a gift (generations ago) from the No-God. This makes a bit of sense in that the Inchoroi seem to be a less magically competent than the Non-men or the Gnostic schools; the "tears of god" may have been an invention to even things out. view post

posted 11 Jul 2004, 15:07 in Author Q & AOn the subject of Chorae by anor277, Didact

I think it is explicitly stated in the novels that there must be physical contact between the chorae and the flesh for the trinkets to either protect or to kill. So no doubt at the end of a battle various bowmen went out to retrieve their precious trinkets (actually mundane bowmen would have gone out to collect their loosed arrows anyway) Interestingly, I think that Cnaiuer (excuse spelling I can't find the umlaut) says in TDTCB that the trinket he possessed was actually a gift (generations ago) from the No-God. Maybe the No-God and the Consult were the source of the trinkets. view post

posted 14 Jul 2004, 16:07 in Off-Topic DiscussionThe LOTR Films by anor277, Didact

Only vaguely on topic of the LoTR films (which I intensely disliked), did anyone see the episode of “Dead Ringers”, a comedy programme on BBC television, in which actors Saruman and Wormtongue are having a conversation and Wormtongue asks Saruman if he was disappointed that his plans for vengeance were cut out of the end of the film. Saruman says no because all he had planned to do was to “crawl in a hole and die”!. Anyway on the DVD version what additions were made to the film? view post

posted 16 Jul 2004, 09:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

While I agree that the Cishaurim is certainly at war with the Consult I am not sure that any ranking sorceror of any school could be a skin spy. The reason being of course that the skin spies do not have the sorcerous “taint” that would be recognized by any fellow sorceror. Of course the Scarlet Spires grandmaster, Sasheoka(?), whom the Cishaurim assassinated, may have been an agent of the Consult (i.e. the Consult offered him an alliance of some sort), but the current master, Eleäzaras (spelling?), seems to be pursuing no agenda other than of his own device. As to what happens when Kellhus meets his father, who knows. Moenghus has obviously discovered bigger priorities than those of the Logos, whether he convinces Kellhus of that remains to be seen. I do think that Achamian will eventually teach Kellhus the Gnosis, after all what real enmity can Achamian hold towards Kellhus? view post

posted 17 Jul 2004, 05:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

Why should Achamian bear a grudge towards Kellhus because of Esmenet? As far as Kellhus and Esmenet knew, Achamian was dead. In fact Achamian should thank Kellhus for saving the life of of his ex-lover - she would have shared the fate of all the other camp followers had not Kellhus taken her as his lover. I think Achamian is analytical enough, even after his first jealous outbursts, to realise the truth of this. On the other hand Achamiam realises that Kellhus has been deceiving him for all those months as has been pointed out above....maybe this will drive him back to the Mandate's bosom. view post

posted 22 Jul 2004, 06:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

@Damaen, if Sasheoka (assassinated SS grandmaster) was a skin spy he must have had the taint of sorcery to continue his imposture. No skin spy that we have seen has that sorcerous taint – hence the perplexity of the Myunsai and Saik schools when they unmasked Skeäos. Consult sorcery (probably Gnostic) has the taint likewise (at least the Inchoroi synthese, the Old name bird man, did). Ergo, Sasheoka was not a skin spy. This is not to say that the Scarlet Spires were not in league with the Consult in Sasheoka’s time; if they are in league with them in Eleäzaras’ time it’s apparently not with their Grandmaster’s knowledge. I am at a definite loss to decide which faction is which or what the real agenda of Moe, Kell, the Cishaurim are. view post

Kellhus the God posted 26 Jul 2004, 15:07 in The Warrior ProphetKellhus the God by anor277, Didact

In the earlier threads on this board there was quite a bit of discussion as to how “human” Kellhus was; the consensus was that Kellhus was not very much so. Given the events at the end of TWP in which Kellhus was elevated to the status of a prophet if not a god it’s evident that the Men of the Tusk were of the same opinion and it is highly probable that Kellhus might extend his dominion across the Three Seas by posing as the latest prophet. Now the Three Seas are probably a nasty place to live, they have rigid social stratification, institutionalized slavery, the subjection of women, and intolerant patriarchal religions for starters and to this situation we add the superhuman Kellhus, a master practitioner of [i:3b55mfos]jnan[/i:3b55mfos], an arch manipulator, and an incorrigible user of his fellows as means and not ends. Have the Three Seas found a god that they truly deserve? The alternative is the Consult but they might preferable because they are at least good in bed. view post

posted 06 Aug 2004, 08:08 in The Warrior ProphetKellhus, Achamiam, and Emotion by anor277, Didact

Nice points, but I think a consensus has been reached that Kellhus is not entirely human. As you say, there were signs already in TWP that Kellhus was being corrupted by his stay among the world born. After Anwurat some “darkness” (was it pity?) stopped him from turning off Cnaiür and of course Kellhus wept for poor, innocent Serwe. On the other hand it’s hard the pity the Great Names that Kellhus so adroitly manipulates; they all practise jnan and they are all self serving, arrogant, and seldom moved by emotion (except when Kellhus moves them). I’ve stated elsewhere that maybe they truly deserve Kellhus. Achamian, as you say is maybe the only moral character; I would like to see the sorcerers of the Scarlet Spires getting what is owed – especially as the novel was ambivalent on whether Iyokus survived Iothiath (maybe he is on the run from the demon he loosed on the world). view post

posted 13 Aug 2004, 20:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by anor277, Didact

The No God also had other evocative names, "Tsurumah" (spelling?) as named by the Non-Men; the "Lokung" (Scylvendi) as well as "Mog-Pharau" from which corruption to the No-God is implied. Actually, given British slang, when the Mandate are always held to be prating about the return of Mog, I thought of a pet cat (a mog or a moggie) coming home for his dinner. view post

Mandate spies? posted 18 Aug 2004, 16:08 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMandate spies? by anor277, Didact

The Mandate elders are of the opinion that they have been infiltrated; specifically all their agents are being turned off. They think that one of their number has turned traitor. Now I think that it is reasonable to assume that a skin spy cannot masquerade as a sorceror (because they do not have the sorcerous “stain” that is recognized by other sorcerors). Any ideas as to who it could be? My tip is most likely that sea captain that ferried Achamian from Atyersus to Sumna – a skin spy in this position would have excellent knowledge of where the Mandate’s field agents were deployed and he’d be overlooked by his insignificance. view post

posted 19 Aug 2004, 06:08 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMandate spies? by anor277, Didact

That was my impression, that the skin spies were simply tailing the Mandate sorcerors. It's hard to believe that a mandate schoolman could turn traitor, given that each night htey are possessed by the mandate's founder, a sorceror long dead. view post

posted 19 Aug 2004, 10:08 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMandate spies? by anor277, Didact

I don’t think it necessarily follows that should a Mandati descend into madness he should betray a past and present trust. For the schoolmen of the modern Mandate, the most stinging jibe laid against them was their prating of the “return of Mog”, apparently a tale told to scare children in the modern Three Seas. Why should a Mandati, covertly approached by a Consult agent, betray himself and his school (and the formidable Seswatha) when finally given evidence that the Mandate’s vigil, unappreciated and ridiculed by the rest of the Three Seas, had in fact been worth keeping? Witness Achamian’s stunned elation at the end of the novel when he uncovers the Consult spies view post

posted 23 Aug 2004, 14:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

It’s hard to see the Consult orchestrating Sasheoka’s assassination in that both Iyokus and Eleazäras remember the occasion and shudder at the fact that the Cishaurim assassins do not bear the mark of sorcery (the stain on the Onta, whatever that is). Consult sorcery, as far as we know, is Gnostic; its practitioners certainly bear the sorcerers’ mark. For whatever reason, the Cishaurim did assassinate Sasheoka. view post

posted 26 Aug 2004, 10:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

Achamian's map might be a good crib (hint?) as to who the factions are - after all he's trying to work out who is who and who is playing whom. Myself, i can't see Maithanet as being anything other than a creature of the Consult (why else proclaim holy war as the last post points out?). Of course, Achamian's map does not explicitly include Moenghus, but he's on the map as a member (and likely evil genius of) the Cishaurim view post posted 28 Oct 2004, 16:10 in Off-Topic by anor277, Didact

Attention: Loose Cannon, Mithfanion, Drosdelnach, and other users on the malazan board! Is it just my server, but I haven't been able to log in to the forum ( for about 2 days. Does anone have any news on its status? view post

posted 29 Oct 2004, 06:10 in Off-Topic by anor277, Didact

@Drosdelnach, Thanx, actually I wanted up to pick some spoilers from the "Bonehunters" (which you might know all about now!). But patience is a virtue. Cheers. view post

posted 29 Oct 2004, 19:10 in Off-Topic by anor277, Didact

Thanks again Dros...(I did know that you had indeed posted that thread!). It makes sense that the board is getting spammed out. Cheers. view post

posted 01 Nov 2004, 09:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

While it’s probably dangerous to anticipate the next novel – we don’t know who the factions are and I suspect a few rabbits will be pulled out of a few hats – here’s my 2 pence and cut me to pieces if necessary. Achamian will probably swallow his jealousy regarding Esmenet and teach Kellhus the Gnosis. Further involvement by the Mandate is probably very likely indeed – they may have other agents in the holy war and surely they might have heard rumours of an Anasurimbor (Atyersus is close to Shimeh by sea and it would be interesting to see how the Scarlet Spires will cope with a corps of Mandate sorcerers – probably by kissing their ar$es). As far as the holy war goes, increasingly Kellhus’s tool, I think that the Kianene have mustered their last host. Fanayal (? the Padirajah’s son) spirited away his brothers and sisters in the last battle and will probably try to consolidate his rule from Nenciphon (i.e. inner Kian). So I think the last march of the holy war will be uncontested up to Shimeh. Where this leaves Conphas and his pact with the Kianene is anybody’s guess. If Conphas is not now a disciple of Kellhus (and he is probably too self-centred to be one) I doubt that he will have the opportunity to subvert the holy war before Shimeh – he has too many powerful opponents, Kellhus and his followers for one, and the Scarlet Spires for another. Conphas is probably flexible enough to ignore the pact his emperor negotiated – the Kianene seem to be impotent now. (As an aside, if the Consult still have skin spies in the Nansur court, I think Istriya, Xerius’ mother, is the prime suspect.) So how does Maithanet fit into this? If he is a skin-spy (and yes I know he ordered Proyas to help Achamian) there’s a chance of him being revealed as was Sarcellus and Skeaös. Should this happen maybe Kellhus will be the “latter latter prophet” and supplant the thousand temples. I’ve got no clue how Mallahet fits into all of this (if he is indeed Moenghus) – a meeting between Cnaiür and Moenghus is likely indeed. view post

posted 02 Nov 2004, 19:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Given Conphas suspicions that Kellhus is a Cishaurim spy, it would truly be ironic if Kellhus spares Shimeh and the Cishaurim. Nansur suspicions were from the beginning untenable: had Kellhus been a Cishaurim operative why should he betray a skin spy? view post

posted 03 Nov 2004, 07:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

@Saintjon; As I recall the "swazond" on Cnaiür's neck was in fact a suicide hesitation mark where he hadn't cut deep enough while attempting to top himself. As far as I know little Moenghus, almost certainly his natural son, is still safely guarded by Kellhus' followers who are under the impression that Kellhus is the father. (NB I've never looked closely enough at the dates in TDTCB and TWP to convince myself that Kellhus could not be the father, nevertheless, that seems to be the case.) @Erthaelion; In my view, the "Aspect Emperor" refers to Kellhus not Conphas. As regards Conpahs' denunciation of the Consult (before Achamian), the fact that he'd been working hand in glove with Sarcellus, a proven skin spy, may have severely tarnished the Nansur lustre. But I've been egregiously wrong before. view post

posted 04 Nov 2004, 19:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Good posts…finally some discussion as to where the books are going. Regarding the fate of the Holy War, I was trying to find a chapter heading that features an excerpt from Achamian’s “Compendium of the 1st Holy War”. From memory, Achamian mentions the crusade’s failure, and then qualifies the term, “did I say failure, no transformation” or something similar. It’s clear that the simple reconquest of Shimeh will not be the defining point, and maybe rather the development of an empire around Shimeh will conclude the crusade (with Kellhus possibly its emperor) – I suppose this harks back to the historical crusades when Outremer kingdoms were built in the Holy Land. Again I don’t think that Shimeh can evade capture. Now at least for the low castes, Kellhus would be a good choice as king/emperor for the newly conquered territories; whether he can persuade Conphas, world born though he is, is a different matter. And of course we don’t know yet what Kellhus’ mission to Shimeh actually is: to kill his father, or to learn from him? Maithanet is another mystery – there’s some evidence that he is a skin spy, (i) he could recognize Achamian as a sorceror (via Seswatha), and (ii) the 1000 temples has apparently been purged of spies and the Consult had a hand in some of the purging. If this is the case it would not be beyond Kellhus to demonstrate (by unmasking the Shriah if he makes a pilgrimage to Shimeh) that the Inrithi worshipped not the God but the Consult…So when does the Thousandfold Thought come out? view post

posted 25 Nov 2004, 19:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Just read something that may be of relevance to the “thousand fold thought” (TDTCB, trade paperback, p 515, Chapter 17). It occurs at the first council of the great names at the emperor’s court when Kellhus appraises the other princes and leaders (i.e. Gothyelk, Saubon, Chepheramunni – masked on this occasion so he can’t be identified as a skin spy). Kellhus observes that individually each prince would be as easy to possess as any world born man, but concludes that in “their sum, they were incalculable. They were a labyrinth, a thousand thousand halls, and he had to pass through them”. Of course I’m out by a couple of orders of magnitude, but is his possession of the holy war the means to move (to pass through) a mass of men with conflicting desires and emotions? I would have hoped that the thousand fold thought included pity and compassion, but if the passage quoted above foreshadows the TTT, then it is just another means to further Kellhus’ mission. view post

posted 08 Dec 2004, 19:12 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by anor277, Didact

I meant to respond to this thread earlier, well here's my 2pence. I think it is perfectly reasonable to question the role of both Moenghus and his son Kellhus, even given that Kellhus is probably exceptional, even for a Dunyain. The problem is that we don't know what are their agenda. Is Kellhus working for the Dunyain; is he working for his father; is he working for a purpose that is yet unspecified? Probably the latter, and try as I might, like Cnaiur, I just cannot fathom what it is. Regarding the prophecy, it is true that there are 2 Anasurimbors in the three seas; in a few months there will be a third, Esmenet's child; for all we know he is the Anasurimbor referred to in the prophecy if indeed the prophecy is valid. Esmenet's child will necessarily be "world born", but with Kellhus and Esmenet (and Achamian?) as his teachers, he might surpass both father and grandfather (and why do I assume that Esmenet's child will be a he?) view post

posted 15 Jan 2005, 20:01 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by anor277, Didact

I agree, I think it's much more likely that Xerius' mother Istriya is a skin spy (perhaps replaced just after Skeaös was revealed). The evidence is very circumstantial of course, Istriya opposes Xerius' plan to spare Shimeh (and the Cishaurim) from conquest, which is presumably a Consult aim; however, Istriya would be uniquely vulnerable to replacement by a skin-spy. She takes numerous lovers and also chooses lovers for her son Xerius, any of whom could be a skin spy and could dispose of her and masquerade as her quite easily. All of this raises an interesting question, are the skin-spies hermaphroditic; can they change their genitals as well as their faces? Yuck, the mind boggles. view post

Ewoks, Ewoks, Ewoks posted 17 Jan 2005, 16:01 in Off-Topic DiscussionEwoks, Ewoks, Ewoks by anor277, Didact

Just a question that occurred to me over the Xmas holidays, in which I saw the Stars Wars saga again (Return of the Jedi is the one I’m talking about), for the 1st time since I was a kiddie. Well, it’s a sad thing to grow up, because all I’ve got now is carping criticism. Specifically, on the Ewoks planet, the Ewoks, with only bow and arrow technology, take on Imperial troops in what is a crucial struggle regarding the security of the Death Star. Meanwhile, Luke confronts his father and the evil emperor on the Death Star above the planet. My problem? As far as I can see Luke’s confrontation is entirely superfluous to the plot of the story. Had Luke been defeated by his father or the emperor, or even tempted to the dark side (whatever that is!), the Death Star would still have been destroyed by reason of the improbable victory of the Ewoks on the ground. Possibly this same point has been done to death at other times and on different forums. Have I missed something? (Possibly I was distracted from some crucial point by the tragic Ewok deaths) view post

posted 28 Jan 2005, 20:01 in Literature DiscussionBest Kick-in-the-Nuts' EVER!!! by anor277, Didact

While I enjoyed ASOIAF, the truly gobsmacking moment for mine in recent literature was in Philip Pullman's [i:1o3y6i65]Northern Lights[/i:1o3y6i65] when Lyra finally learns what the Gobblers are doing to the children they have kidnapped. I was jumpy for a week afterwards. view post

posted 29 Jan 2005, 19:01 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by anor277, Didact

@Erthaelion... While I agree that it is a lot harder to imagine a sexual misfit as female, there is the possibility that the skin-spies are hermaphrodites, i.e. they have flexible genital organs or two sets thereof (I'll leave it to the author to supply the gross details of those contraptions!). Regarding the observation that we've seen no "female" skin-spies, wasn't there a scene when it was implied that one of Esmenet's fellow prostitutes was a closet skin-spy? Mind you, as you say it doesn't make sense to impersonate a female in the Three Seas - there are few that hold any power. On the other hand a female is more likely to be overlooked and therefore a more effective spy. view post

posted 29 Jan 2005, 19:01 in Philosophy DiscussionDrug Legalization by anor277, Didact

Well there is at least one person here (me) that thinks all drugs should be legalised (and funnily enough I'm not too sympathetic to weed users - the hippy freaks!). The counter argument is that if all drugs were legalised, i.e. an open slather regime, there would be more addicts than at present; and indeed given the widespread availability of any drug currently this is a valid consideration. Nevertheless, for mine drug use is a personal choice - if you are addicted to a particular drug you should have it supplied safely and legally. view post

posted 08 Feb 2005, 14:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by anor277, Didact

Maybe we’ll have to wait for Achamian, or Kellhus, or someone with a few brains and a scalpel to perform a proper autopsy on a dead skin spy – so far all the emperor's gofers or those of the Scarlet Spires have done is to cut off their heads. Then again, maybe they didn’t find anything remarkable about their bodies. view post

posted 09 Feb 2005, 14:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by anor277, Didact

Whitelord wrote, [quote:3gnsb8ga]I put a question about them to Scott so let's hope he can give us at least a partial answer...[/quote:3gnsb8ga] If you find out, please don’t post it here! (or at least put a spoiler tag on it) – asking Scott for the answer is a bit like looking up the answers in the back of the book, it’s just far too convenient for mine. I’d much rather speculate than have the definitive answer. Cheers view post

posted 01 Mar 2005, 20:03 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by anor277, Didact

[quote:3qifgmbi][i:3qifgmbi]Originally posted by WhiteLord:[/i:3qifgmbi] After all, Kellhus has single-handedly wrecked whatever hope the Consult had of smashing the Cishaurim, and they have already marked him for some really painful demise.[/quote:3qifgmbi] Ah, but has Kellhus actually wrecked the plans of the Consult, or has he advanced them? Certainly if the Consult wants to destroy the Cishaurim, Kellhus actions at Caraskand seemed to have preserved the crusade: (i) he forbore to start a civil war between his faction and the factions of the Great names; and (ii) he led the Holy War to an improbable victory over the last host (arguably) of the Fanim. In fact, if any skin spies survived Kellhus' pogroms (and at least Chepheramunni however you spell it did for a time), they might actually make overtures to Kellhus and offer an alliance (in good faith or not), and Kellhus may accept it (in good faith or not - certainly both sides would try to manipulate the other). view post

posted 07 Mar 2005, 19:03 in The Warrior ProphetTally of Evil Acts by anor277, Didact

Just to reply to this thread (and I've been meaning to for weeks), I think that Xerius' willful, premeditated sacrifice of the so-called of the vulgar Holy War (the slaughter of all his co-religionists just as a bargaining chip against the Shriah and the rest of the Great Names' factions) is for mine the most evil act in the novel so far. I recall Xerius himself (or was it Conphas?) felt like a god when he heard of the vulgar crusade's demise - the sacrifice of all those souls.....I'd never make such a good politician. view post

posted 08 Mar 2005, 06:03 in The Warrior ProphetTally of Evil Acts by anor277, Didact

@Erthaelion, Thanks, it was Conphas as you say - nevertheless I feel that Xerius bears the ultimate responsibility for the vulgar Holy War, he planned it, he negotiated it, and he executed it. As regards other "evil acts" I'd like to mention Serwe's father, who sold her into slavery at the age of 14, into god knows what rape and indignity. If the Three Seas suffer in the next few years under Mog or Kellhus, then by god some of them deserve it. view post

posted 24 Apr 2005, 12:04 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

I too do not think Iyokus is dead; certainly Achamian did not witness his death, at the time Akka was distracted by the demon Iyokus raised. I seem to remember Eleäzaras later mentioning the disaster at wherever it was and maybe Iyokus was the source of that information. Possibly Iyokus is still running from that demon. I'm still waiting for some Mandate sorcerors to turn up at Caraskarand. view post

posted 30 Apr 2005, 06:04 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

[i:2f06rgo9]Posted by Morgoth B[/i:2f06rgo9] [quote:2f06rgo9] I have a strange feeling that the Zaudunyani will become a sort of Prophet's School- one impervious to chorae (seeing as Kellhus, one of the Few, cannot be harmed by the chorae as we've seen time and again; i.e. the ring bound by chorae, and another instance where he handled one). I think Achamian will surrender the Gnosis towards the end of TTT, as he watches the Mandate be utterly destroyed by new Consult weaponry. [/quote:2f06rgo9] Just regarding Kellhus sorcerous ability, he is indeed immune to chorae, but as far as we know his immunity derives from the fact that he is not yet a sorceror. There are apparently other sorcerously gifted individuals (the Thousand Temples' witchfinders, the college of Luthyae, Luthymae? are an example) who are also immune to chorae because they too have never practised sorcery - uttering a cant apparently stains both the Unta (whatever that is) and the individual who spoke the cant. (Of course Cishaurim sorcerors do not share the stain, but they are manifestly vulnerable to chorae - Mallahet's interview with the Nansur emperor for instance) When Achamian tests Kellhus with the witch doll, he says to him words to the effect. "you won't be uttering a cant, you'll still be able to handle chorae without discomfort". In sum, all sorcery [i:2f06rgo9]practitioners[/i:2f06rgo9] (not adepts, i.e. those who have never used their ability) are vulnerable to chorae (this includes Gnostic - Consult and Mandate - and Anagogic - Scarlet Spires, etc.- and Cishaurim sorcery) and a chorae holder is apparently reasonably invulnerable to direct sorcerous attack. I agree with you that Kellhus' Zaudunyani may become the basis of a little Dunyain prophet school, and that Kellhus will learn the Gnosis from Achamian. What Kellhus makes of the sorcery, as Achamian alluded to in the "Warrior Prohpet" is another matter, and this is one of the very things I'm looking forward to in the next novel. The question I'd like to have really answered is, where do the Mandate fit into this? They probably have other agents than Achamian in the Holy War, and if you look on the map, their stronghold, Atyersus (? is that right) is not far by sea from Shimeh or where the Holy War is currently camped. When are they going to make an appearance? Who are they going to discipline? view post

posted 30 Apr 2005, 06:04 in The Warrior Propheterror? by anor277, Didact

As far as I can recall, the incident with Serwe's heart had to do with the Inrithi ritual punishment for false prophets: Serwe, his wife, was killed and her corpse mutilated, Kellhus was beaten and scourged, and the false prophet his dead wife were bound together on a ring facing each other. The Inrithi are a nasty bunch of women haters, no wonder Fane had followers. view post

posted 30 Apr 2005, 15:04 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

@Atan.. I agree with your assesment. The point I was trying to make was that Consult sorcery is almost certainly Gnostic. Why? Because in Achamian's epic account of the rise and fall of the No-God, he mentioned that Golgotterath was "reactivated" by the ancient [i:2p2qhf38]Gnostic[/i:2p2qhf38] school of Mangaecca (spelling is right I think for once - but no umlauts). Now the Consult, which probably includes Non-men, men, and Inchoroi (at least one or two), probably practises both sorcery and some science/craft/biotechnology, the Tekne? The old father, the bird man, an Inchoroi, was certainly a sorceror. On skin spies (Tekne products?), chorae were ineffective, they are demonstrably not magical creatures and indeed Sarcellus himself wielded a chorae to fend off the sorcerous attack of Inrau (a Gnostic sorceror). I think we may reasonably assume that chorae would be effective against Consult [i:2p2qhf38]sorcery[/i:2p2qhf38], especially as Achamian once laments the fact that against the now active Consult, humanity possessed only a handful of trinkets. view post

posted 01 May 2005, 07:05 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

Thanx Whitelord... I hadn't realised that Scott had gone into such detail in his Q and A section on the origin of chorae. Maybe I should take a look at those threads. You're dead right on the use of chorae on a battlefield. The gentry probably doled out a few dozen trinkets (certainly not more than a 100) to the expert archers and missile men among their clients, who were organised into a special company against sorcerors (cf the Thesji bowmen of the Fanim and the Scylvendi also had such a company). Of course, the gentry would retain one trinket for personal protection (cf. Xinemus had three, probably now lost in the wreckage of Achamian's escape). As you say, after a battle, the victors of the field would scour the paddock looking for loosed trinkets on arrows or bolts or quarrels (or on the bodies of fallen quality nobles) - on a pregunpowder battlefield this would anyway be standard behaviour for archers, slingers, missilemen (and the impecunious - a chorae would be a prized bit of loot). We've gone off topic, but Cnaiur mentioned that his trinket was among a gift from the No-god to his people (this makes sense if the chorae originated from the Inchoroi and the rogue Non-men). Quite possibly, the Scylvendi probably possessed a lot of trinkets. They had never been defeated on the field and had 1000's of years history of looting and pillaging. After Kiyuth of course all those trinkets wold now be in the hands of the Nansur. view post

Should Kellhus learn the Gnosis? posted 01 May 2005, 13:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by anor277, Didact

Just a question connected to chorae. Kellhus is a man of prodigal intellect and prodigal reflexes – no one we’ve seen in the Three Seas can compete with him intellectually or physically. It might be that his learning the Gnosis would complete the package (i.e. he would become the ultimate warrior/prophet/sorceror/sage) . Nevertheless by uttering a cant he would, (i) earn the enmity of the laity (i.e. shades of “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” etc. Censure of and sanction against sorcerors and witches seem to be fairly potent in the the Three Seas, (ii) more importantly, he would render himself vulnerable to chorae. Of course Kellhus’ reflexes allow him to pick crossbow bolts out of midair. If he becomes a sorceror he will have to check that the arrows/quarrels etc directed at him in battle do not have a chorae attached. Other temporal powers in the Three Seas (i.e. the Nansur Emperor, Maithanet – I know he is not temporal!) can hold office without exercising sorcerous powers themselves, indeed the Nansur emperor directs a School. So should Kellhus learn sorcery? view post

posted 03 May 2005, 12:05 in Author Q & AChorae bowmen by anor277, Didact

[i:25a4qybr]Brady wrote[/i:25a4qybr] [quote:25a4qybr]I think Mr Bakker has actually confirmed that Chorae bowmen are archers wearing Chorae, not archers loosing arrows made from chorae. Which perhaps implies that contact with a chorae wielder lends an object the same magic-immune properties for at least a limited time.[/quote:25a4qybr] Actually I recall him saying the opposite, and I think it is fairly clear from the novels that there has to be physical contact for the chorae to function. That is, if you are holding a chorae you are immune to sorcerors' spells. To kill a sorceror, the chorae has to physically contact that sorceror. The chorae bowmen, wherever they are, actually loose, arrows, bolts, quarrels with the chorae mounted somehow on the shaft or the head of the missile [i:25a4qybr]i.e. attached[/i:25a4qybr]. No contact, no effect. view post

posted 03 May 2005, 19:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by anor277, Didact

@White Lord and sciborg2.... You've provided more 'filosofy' than I can handle. I am prosaic and materialistic. And I thought the original meaning of 'gnostic' was 'know thyself'. Anyway, White Lord's suggestion that by the end of the next novel the people of the Three Seas might have undergone a drastic revision in their view of sorcery is for mine a good one and perfectly reasonable. And of course it has been foreshadowed in what we've actually read thus far. Achamian and Esmenet have already speculated whether it was blasphemy for a prophet, whom they perceive Kellhus to be, to sing the god's song, whereas it was apparently 'blasphemy' for a sorceror to do the same, hence the discordance, the 'wrenching of the intellect', when a sorceror utters a spell. Perhaps we'll see when Kellhus 1st utters the cant 'that halibut was fit for Jehovah'. view post

posted 03 May 2005, 19:05 in Author Q & AChorae bowmen by anor277, Didact

[i:3h4g3xd1]Cu'jara Cinmoi wrote[/i:3h4g3xd1] [quote:3h4g3xd1]Yeah, Chorae bowmen fire actual Chorae, either fixed on crossbow bolts or arrow shafts. I have no idea as to the aerodynamic feasibility of this, but hey! grant me a little suspension of disbelief! As others have said, Chorae are actually very hard to lose because of the Few's ability to see them.[/quote:3h4g3xd1] Mr (Dr?) B, I don't think too much suspension of disbelief is necessary, even given that your novels are so imaginative. The missiles of pre-gunpowder antiquity in our world included armour piercing bodkins, smoke/fire arrows, even whistling arrows. I don't think a small trinket attached somewhere to the shaft or behind the business end of the missile stretches credulity. PS your noted competitor Steven Erikson has described a high explosive device attached to a crossbow bolt in the Malazan series - I cannot conceive why the engineers of that world don't fix a much smaller explosive to their crossbow bolt to produce a musket, but then I can't write fantasy novels! Edited for spilling. view post

posted 22 May 2005, 07:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSome Random Thoughts on TTT by anor277, Didact

[quote:2w6scb1z][i:2w6scb1z]Kidruhil Lancer wrote:[/i:2w6scb1z] As for Esmi's betrayal... the fact that she let Akka go so easily without even being sure that he was dead, and in so short a time too... really just makes me lose respect for her. Whore or not... she moved on pretty quickly. It wasn't just a bid to keep her place among the high and mighty... she gave herself body and soul to Kellhus. Honestly, I just can't look past that. And I doubt Akka will be able to either.[/quote:2w6scb1z] I think some of you are being a bit hard on Esmenet (Achamian is guilty of this as well for mine). Had Kellhus not taken Esmi as his lover after Achamian was taken, almost certainly Esmenet would have been dead like the other camp followers. Even Achamian, [i:2w6scb1z]in extremis[/i:2w6scb1z], said something like "Esmi, survive me". Well how did he think she was going to do that? The men of the Tusk did not admire her for her intellect. Kellhus, for all his faults and manipulations, did. view post

posted 22 May 2005, 07:05 in Off-Topic DiscussionHelp! (Erikson Books) by anor277, Didact

@KL, if does not satisfy, you could always order from or The English and Canadian subsidiaries certainly stock the titles and it is relatively easy to have them shipped. I think even has the [i:3uch6g5k]Night of Knives[/i:3uch6g5k] novella (but you might have to be quick and it's pricey). view post

posted 24 May 2005, 09:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by anor277, Didact

Just a few remarks, I think it is certainly clear that the Cishaurim assassinated Sasheoka and not the Consult. Why? We have Iyokus recollection of the encounter, and he relates that the sorcery did not cause a “sound” or a stain on the Onta or whatever you wish to call it. Consult sorcery, as far as we know, is Gnostic, which certainly has a sorcerous stain. By the same reasoning, it is also not possible for skin spies to be sorcerors. They are non-magical creatures that are indetectable to actual sorcerors, who would readily detect the mark of sorcery (at least the non-Cishaurim variety). view post

posted 25 May 2005, 18:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by anor277, Didact

The notion that the Consult are trying to wrest the Psukhe from the Cishaurim (or that they are frightened by it) is a good one. It does not necessarily follow that they have created Psukhe wielding skin spies; if so it is equally likely that they have created Anagogic or Gnostic wielding skin spies - i.e. spies who could take the place of Eleäzaras, Achamian, or the Mandate elders (a potentially disastrous situation for the rest of the Three Seas and not really fair in terms of plot development). Until I see evidence otherwise I continue to believe that the skin spies are non sorcerous creatures. view post

posted 25 May 2005, 20:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by anor277, Didact

@White Lord; Well, if I have not been misreading your posts, (and I do apologize if so), I certainly have not understood them. It's very hard to talk with confidence about sorcery when this is entirely a product of imagination. You argue that the Consult [i:2i70a5uo]could[/i:2i70a5uo] produce made to measure constructs with the ability to use sorcery and so it could be anyone, any master of a school, any individual sorceror who might be an agent of the Consult. How can we judge the motives of Eleäzaras or Achamian or Moenghus (or soon even Kellhus) when for all we know the Consult turned him off the night before and replaced him a specially constructed creature? In that case all speculation is pointless and I would be disappointed with the internal logic of the novels (and perhaps I will be). As to why the Consult can't create such creatures who use sorcery but could be exact replicas of whomever or whatever the answer is , "I don't know", and I am not going to find out why or why not by asking the author. The Consult are powerful, but if they are that powerful they are well nigh omnipotent. view post

posted 10 Aug 2005, 14:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by anor277, Didact

Just a pointer to the physical appearance of the Non-Men, during Achamian’s torment at the hands of the Scarlet Spires, he dreams of Seswatha’s torment at the hands of Mekeritrig (spelling) and mentions his (M’s) inhumanly handsome face. Mekeritrig was evidently a good sort. view post

posted 19 Aug 2005, 09:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMost cruel act yet? by anor277, Didact

I cannot shed too many tears over Xunnurit or Achamian; for mine the most cruel act was Serwe’s family actually selling her at the age of 14 into God knows what rape and indignity. That this act seemed to be fairly widespread among the Norsirai families makes it all the more reprehensible. view post

posted 14 Sep 2005, 14:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Erekassos Knerceannis":xkp43nk7]Unless, of course, Moenghus has found a way to change the color of his skin....... [/quote:xkp43nk7] Yes, it's called dye, and Moenghus has used the expedient beforehand when he escaped from the Scylvendi. I further think that it is very good odds that Maithanet is a skin spy. view post

posted 14 Sep 2005, 18:09 in ReviewsOlympos by Dan Simmons by anor277, Didact

I read both of Simmons' novels on a long plane journey recently (I was glad I had the books). Two quick critcisms, (i) like many of Simmons' novels I think he is trying to be too clever and too complicated, (ii) in [i:1sjo3wkg]Olympus[/i:1sjo3wkg] did it gripe anybody else's ar$e that Hector had cut down both Diomedes and Aias? (This was something that was completely out of character with respect to the [i:1sjo3wkg]Iliad[/i:1sjo3wkg] and where were Memnon and Neoptolemus?) view post

posted 28 Oct 2005, 14:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":2chot13d].........We have to assume Daddy is tough as nails and will survive almost any circumstances. Plus, he is in a position of power, so we know he is somewhat protected.........[/quote:2chot13d] I think the assumption that Moenghus is as hard as nails is very sound. He apparently survived enslavement at the hands of the Sranc. This even impressed the Scylvendi, who were his next captors view post

posted 31 Oct 2005, 13:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

Actually, Moenghus captivity at the hands of the Sranc, may even have a bearing on the plotline of the [i:1ggzuqqx]Thousandfold Thought[/i:1ggzuqqx]. Here, I am idly speculating that Moenghus (as a dumb, witless, slave whose life continually hang by a thread) had a chance to observe the Consult, and perhaps hatch a plan to combat them. Of course, we don't know how much insight Moenghus gained of the the Sranc or the Consult while he was their captive. Moenghus had been conditioned to read human faces; for the Sranc he would have to learn how to read a new "species". view post

posted 02 Nov 2005, 15:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Q. Sertorius":2jrhxqyb]anor277, That's absolutely brilliant. I remember reading that passage before but only thinking about the physical aspect of it. While it's entirely possible that Moenghus only interacted with Sranc, we finally have a plausible reason to consider him an enemy of the Consult. Amazing job. Gosh I can't wait til TTT come out. Quintus[/quote:2jrhxqyb] As a speculation it is reasonable (and someone may have made it before). The problem is we have no other evidence to support it. We have not seen the actual Moenghus yet and we don’t know the extent of his machinations. I think somewhere in PoN, Kellhus wondered how his Moenghus would have fared in a world of unconditioned humans, whom both he and his father could read like a book - Moenghus may be operating long, long term. And yet, if Moenghus is Mallahet, and certainly that is the general assumption, we are left to wonder how powerful a blind Dunyain could be (or are the Cishaurim truly blind?). And TTT comes out in January? Shyte!! [i:2jrhxqyb]edited for an extra point[/i:2jrhxqyb] view post

posted 02 Nov 2005, 16:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":244inl5u]The Cishaurim are definitely not blind. Else how would the Cishaurim at the end of TWP have been able to spot Kelhus on the roof top and sail over to him. They see through those snakes around their necks. The blinding (like so many mystic and shaman practices) is suppose to open a different kind of sight, which probably has something to do with being able to access the Puske (sp?) and why other sorcerers can't see it. And then they can somehow see through the snake's eyes.[/quote:244inl5u] And is reptilian vision as good as human sight? I'd rather have my original two mince pies. The "mystical" granting of second sight involves a sacrifice, the loss of visual perception. I imagine that Moenghus went through his Cishaurim bar mitzvah with some trepidation. Anyway, this is all speculation. view post

posted 03 Nov 2005, 13:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Maithanet as a Consult plant, i.e. as a skin spy, is also a likely scenario. It's hard to see him as an agent of Moenghus. view post

posted 07 Nov 2005, 07:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Spamoram":2kl4ytdu] .................... Also, the College of Luthymae numbers many of the Few who chose not to practice sorcery. Thus they are able to recognize sorcerous spies and and recognize if a person has been compelled by use of sorcery.[/quote:2kl4ytdu] Inrau's status as a lapsed Mandati was a bit puzzling. I think one of the Inchoroi brothers said that he could not sense "Chigra" (i.e. Seswatha) within Inrau as he was being turned off. Inrau was an initiate and not fully immersed into the Mandate hierarchy - he must have never uttered a cant until the very last. Likewise the College of Luthymae, all "potential" sorcerors who chose not to exercise their power, they did seem to function as the equivalent of the "Witchfinders General"; I suspect that they are a nasty bunch indeed, given the strictures against sorcery and divination. view post

posted 08 Nov 2005, 18:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

My post directly above, not logged in. view post

posted 08 Nov 2005, 19:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Shyte, I have done it again. My post directly above. view post

posted 09 Nov 2005, 06:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Nail of Heaven - What is it? by anor277, Didact

I thought it was clearly the pole star as well. the Three Seas mariners must use something for navigation. view post

posted 09 Nov 2005, 06:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Spamoram":2qtklvao]................. Maithanet has the innate ability of the Few (potential to become a sorcerer). Thus he can observe those who are stained by use of sorcery. ...........[/quote:2qtklvao] I am not so sure that Maithanet is a sorceror. As a skin spy he could have recognized a Mandate Sorceror. He could also have been fed the intelligence from Sarcellus. view post

Re: What about akka and esme. posted 09 Nov 2005, 17:11 in The Warrior ProphetWhat about akka and esme. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jesh":1z4qhiw0]I was so sad that akka and esme didn’t get together again at the end of the book, I’m such a sucker for happy endings and while this isn’t the end of the story, I would have been so happy if akka and esme would have ended up together again. But mr. bakker still has a book to make it alright, and he better or else… :wink:[/quote:1z4qhiw0] Maybe I'm not a romantic, but as I have said before, had Kellhus not taken Esmenet as a lover (as a wife in fact) she would be dead and I can shed no tears for Achamian, he is 40 odd years old not 14 and this cannot be the 1st time someone has preferred another man to him. And has Achamian really been dumped? Kellhus and Esmenet reasonably thought him dead. For all Kellhus' manipulation and Machiavellian cunning, I thought his seduction of Esmenet one of his few defensible acts. view post

posted 10 Nov 2005, 07:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

@Spamoram, It sounds like we're in agreement then. Either Maithanet is one of the (unsullied) few or a skin spy. As for the intelligence, it's my opinion that skin spies are assigned to tail all Mandate sorcerors all the way from Atyersus. (PS The synthese could see "Chigra", the Skeaös Skin Spy also seemed to have this ability.) view post

Re: What about akka and esme. posted 10 Nov 2005, 07:11 in The Warrior ProphetWhat about akka and esme. by anor277, Didact

[quote="shockwave":3im1q5ol] Though i see your logic and the probability of it, i reject it.[/quote:3im1q5ol] This of course is your privilege. [quote:3im1q5ol]But i do not agree you cannot or should not shed tears for Akka.[/quote:3im1q5ol] Again this is your privilege, not to cry for him is mine. [quote:3im1q5ol]Time and time again they have lost and found each other in numerous ways. Always was Esmenet his foundation and only real lasting love (besides Inrau but we all know what became of him and that was a different kind of love).[/quote:3im1q5ol] And yet it was Esmenet who begged Achamian not to go to the library. Who abandoned whom (especially with Esme's knowledge that Serwe has seduced him)? And Esmenet had the whore's knowledge that men never stayed. [quote:3im1q5ol]This is not simply her preferring another man to him, which he could have accepted, he knows there are greater men out there than him. But the betrayal Esmi has commited is that of a true love. [/quote:3im1q5ol] Well Kellhus is undoubtedly younger and fitter than Achamian, and no doubt better in bed. I know whom I'd prefer. As for the "true love" between Achamian and Esmenet I take it you don't suggest that you can love truly only once? [quote:3im1q5ol]Do you realize that time after time she has longer for him and wished for him, yet dared not? And then when he gives himself, he sets her free, he lets her dare. She accepts, and then at the threshold of the first true test, lets him go. She is true to herself, the whore, yet not true to who she made us think she was. Maybe now she is more who she wants to be; still tied to the person who is at the center of the world. How Akka made her feel before when he visited her in Sumna. But noone has brought that argument and i refuse to accept that without a really good context.[/quote:3im1q5ol] No I don't realise this, perhaps I am an emotional cripple, but this is life. [quote:3im1q5ol]Besides, they didnt think him 'reasonably dead'. Yes they had [b:3im1q5ol]very[/b:3im1q5ol] probably cause. They had no reason to think he was alive, but no factual news that he was dead either. Throughout the books Esmi is always portrayed as someone who would look for Akka till she saw his body. She knows she is his only love. Why not at least grant him that, is she really that much under Kellhus's spell? Yes i think so. Otherwise she would have felt sorry and shown her love for him. I agree with you that what they did was in their best interest and a logical, maybe even necesarry step in Esmi's evolving character. But once he was back, things should have changed. Yet it is irrecovably true to the books that she remains with Kellhus, yet another 'strong' character falling for his words and actions.[/quote:3im1q5ol] Well it seems that at least we're in agreement here. Esmenet and Kellhus say to Proyas of their relationship, that they thought somehow that Achamian would have approved. It does not sound like bull$hit. Achamian under torture says "Esme, survive me?", since we're now into making moral judgements, maybe Achamian's love for Esmenet should transcend his jealousy - he should be happy for Kellhus and Esmenet. Kellhus "love" for Esmenet (and certainly he does admire her intellect) gave her something that Achamian could never give and had never given. [quote:3im1q5ol]But in my opinion she should have confessed her 'sins' to Akka, who would have understood, the poor fool, and then profused her 'love' for him despite her devotion to Kellhus still. I regret that i cannot see it differently than that she is under Kellhus's spell. Yes she consequently did something natural and necesarry for her survival.. but how necesarry is it for her survival now to bed Kellhus and throw away Akka at his return (did she even thank Xin?) when he needs her the most? ............[/quote:3im1q5ol] All of course morally reprehensible but who am I to cast the first stone? view post

posted 10 Nov 2005, 12:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

[b:caq0is9f]Shockwave wrote:[/b:caq0is9f][quote:caq0is9f]Cant there be another reason for this assassination? Shasheoka and Eleazeras were as close 'as ainoni men are'. What does this mean? Maybe they were lovers and they didnt leave each others side at all and that would make it hard to replace either with a skin-spý. More so even if it had to be a sorcerer skin-spy. [/quote:caq0is9f] It is nearly certain that Sasheoka was [i:caq0is9f]not[/i:caq0is9f] a skin spy. As far as we know skin spies are technological artefacts which do not have sorcerous origins. A skin spy posing as a sorceror would lack the sorcerous stain, that other sorcerors so readily perceive, necessary for impersonation. Ergo, Sasheoka, Eleäzaras, Achamian, etc. , all practising sorcerors are not skin spies. Which still leaves us the question why the Cishaurim assassinated the Scarlet Spires grandmaster. view post

posted 10 Nov 2005, 17:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":150kzcfa]We are certain that Moenghus is a member of the Cishaurim and controls a faction within it. If we accept that he is a mastermind of the Holy War, in order to make the war feasible, some extraordinary circumstance would have to make a School march with the Inrithi. I think Moenghus arranged the attack on the Scarlet Spires to create such a circumstance - the need for revenge against the Cishaurim. It seems to have worked. The Scarlet Spires is the biggest School in the Three Seas and without them, the Inrithi would be slaughtered by the Cishaurim. Sorry for my spellings, I am hung over.[/quote:150kzcfa] But why have a Holy War at all? (And kill off a very sizable proportion of the Three Seas' military strength - Fanim and non-Fanim and render two major sorcerous schools [i:150kzcfa]hors de combat[/i:150kzcfa]). If Mallahet/Moenghus is at war with the Consult, engineering such an war an internecine war should be his last priority. view post

posted 11 Nov 2005, 07:11 in The Warrior ProphetWhat about akka and esme. by anor277, Didact

@shockwave, I wish I'd said "who am I to cast the first stone" before Jesus Christ but I am 2000 year too late (PS I am by no means a god botherer). As to what Kellhus gave Esmenet that Achamian never could, I do acknowledge what Kellhus gives with one hand he may take away with the other, in other words it may all end in bloody tears for Esmenet (it might end in even much worse, cf Serwe). I suppose I mean that Kellhus made Esmenet confront and accept the enormous “sin” she committed in selling her daughter. Somehow he managed to make her forgive herself. Achamian, who certainly knew of Esmenet’s daughter could not bring himself to speak of it, it was unspeakable, nor could Esmenet – without Kellhus the enormity of this crime was likely to follow her to the grave, the one sin for which there could be no forgiveness. Of course this sin had been repeated many times by other parents across the Three Seas (cf Serwe again), but the banality of an evil deed does not make it any less evil, nor is it any less easy to confront. Kellhus "gift" (and I certainly think it was a gift whatever his motives and whatever the consequences) dwarfs (dwarves?) her current position among Kellhus' acolytes. view post

posted 11 Nov 2005, 08:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Anonymous":1a8uzzk2]So wait. Do consult spies bear the taint or not? If they bear the taint, then the cishaurim could have assisnated one Consult agent that led the Scarlet Spires. If they don't bear the taint, then they could have assisinated the leader of the Scarlet Spires to start a war to eliminate the Cishaurim. This is what I thought really happened.[/quote:1a8uzzk2] As far as I know, (and as far as Achamian clearly understands) skin spies do not bear the taint of sorcery - therefore they could not impersonate non-Cishaurim sorcerors. On the other hand, Sasheöka's assassination could not have been accomplished by Consult agents. Skin spies do not practise sorcery, and Consult sorcery, as far as we can reasonably surmise, is Gnostic. We have Iyokus (? Eleäzaras 2iC) and the grandmaster's account that the assassination was "silent" in terms of sorcery. Ergo, the assassination must have been performed by the Cishaurim (or by a faction within the Cishaurim). Excuse me for repeating myself so many times. I think it is worth going over again and again. I am going to kick myself if we learn something in TTT that we could have reasonably anticipated from the 1st two novels. view post

posted 18 Nov 2005, 20:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by anor277, Didact

My post above, sorry. Just to add that the Dunyain might well learn to read the Sranc and may have already done so. They (and certainly Moenghus) have encountered them before. Even Kellhus alone learned the rudiments of reading the skin spies. The scene where he pretended to respond to Sarcellus' jibe that he (S) had enjoyed both of his (K's) peaches was tremendous. view post

posted 20 Nov 2005, 16:11 in The Warrior ProphetSource of Powers by anor277, Didact

My post above! Whoops. view post

Re: Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 12 Dec 2005, 07:12 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by anor277, Didact

[quote="butlersr":1ik29zgh]I think that to understand Esmett's betrayl one must see Esmi as Bakker's critique of women. .......[/quote:1ik29zgh] And whom did Esme betray? A man she reasonably thought dead, who had arguably abandoned her on that night he went to the library, a man whose fidelity she had legitimate reason to doubt? Again I find it hard to agree that the author is a misogynist. The Three Seas is a very nasty place to live. Everything and everyone is for sale. As for prostitution it is probably hard to find a new profession as a clerk or a typist if you're tattooed with the mark of a whore. I think even Achamian himself understood the choices facing Esmenet - if she didn't sell him (Akka) and herself she would be dead very soon. view post

posted 28 Dec 2005, 08:12 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

If we accept that Mallahet/Moenghus is indeed the "genius" behind the resistance to the now active Consult (and given Moenghus' history he might have come into direct contact with the Consult), it is likely that his faction dare not approach say the Mandate, or the Saik with the offer of alliance on the basis that all the Schools (and the 1000 temples) are riddled with Consult spies. We know that this infestation is true for the Mandate and the 1000 temples (and also the NonMen!). A skin spy cannot masquerade as a sorceror, but he/(she?) certainly can masquerade as a functionary, a trusted aid - and this would compromise any approach made by Moenghus' faction to a third party. Moenghus' faction, probably drawing on Moenghus' past training, can probably see skin spies. The only individual they can approach is a man that can also see skin spies, and that is Kellhus. view post

Re: No partnerships for Cisharum posted 29 Dec 2005, 10:12 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

[quote="Guest":2pe12ux5]Good point!!! Thanks for reminding me of that little "infiltration" fact.[/quote:2pe12ux5] On the other hand Mallahet did make an approach to the Nansur emperor on behalf of the Fanim grandees, and I think Skeaös was even present at the meeting. It's possibly significant that Mallahet was not negotiating on behalf of the Cishaurim alone - he might have revealed too much of his intentions to the skin spies. view post

posted 31 Dec 2005, 09:12 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

[quote="Guest":jcpqg71z]....................................................................................................................... Here's something far more aggravating to chew on. Had the fourteen Cisharum on the Plains of Mengedda had a few bowmen at their backs when they were burning the Northmen (Galeoth, Tydonni and Thunyeri) to ash, they could have destroyed the entirety of that contingent before Proyas and the Conriyans made to it the battle. The only reason they were taken down was because of a few Shrial chorae-holders. A couple of arrows could have taken out that limited threat and the Holy War would have effectively been cut in half. The southern contingents would have prevailed, of course, but only because the Scarlet Spires travelled with them. Think of how few they would be in number now after the Carathay![/quote:jcpqg71z] You might be reading a bit too much into that episode. If a knight can afford to carry a priceless trinket, he can likely afford to wear the very best armour - of course to be effective in such a situation he has also got to persuade himself to be suicidal, which the Shrial knights did. As I recall from that battle the Cishaurim abandoned their usual tactics because they held their opponents' warcraft in contempt (their usual tactics were to screen the Cishaurim sorcerors). Actually after such a battle I had the picture of a low ranking Scarlet Schoolman going out on the field with a couple of slaves to locate all the trinkets his side and the losing side loosed (missile troops would collect all the spent arrows anyway). view post

Re: Death by Cisharum posted 04 Jan 2006, 15:01 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

[quote="Guest":3n1cn8gh][quote="anor277":3n1cn8gh]You might be reading a bit too much into that episode. If a knight can afford to carry a priceless trinket, he can likely afford to wear the very best armour - of course to be effective in such a situation he has also got to persuade himself to be suicidal, which the Shrial knights did. As I recall from that battle the Cishaurim abandoned their usual tactics because they held their opponents' warcraft in contempt (their usual tactics were to screen the Cishaurim sorcerors). Actually after such a battle I had the picture of a low ranking Scarlet Schoolman going out on the field with a couple of slaves to locate all the trinkets his side and the losing side loosed (missile troops would collect all the spent arrows anyway).[/quote:3n1cn8gh] Ummm, I don't know. Trinkets are more a matter of inheritance than purchase. As you said, they're priceless (more or less). A soilder wouldn't be able to afford such a thing. Especially not the "young adept" that was mentioned. It in fact read that it was his "dead father's Chorae." I say this to suggest that the armor could easily be crap regardless of one possessing a Chorae. What's more, the Kianene are extraordinary bowmen. A shot in the head/skull area wouldn't be that difficult unless the soilder constantly changed their trajectory; which of course is HIGHLY unlikely given the circumstance. Also it seems unlikely that anyone would leave their trinket laying around after the battle. A warrior, given that he survived, would immediately go to retrieve his lost possession. Those things aren't exactly replacable.[/quote:3n1cn8gh] As far as I can reasonably surmise about the use of chorae on battlefields, a caste noble probably doles out a few chorae to the expert archers in his company while keeping one for himself (cf Xinemus had 3 chorae), this is then organized into a troop to take out enemy sorcerors. But if you lose the battle the victor takes possession of the field and [i:3n1cn8gh]all[/i:3n1cn8gh] the spent chorae. These would be fairly easy to sniff out by a low ranking sorceror (low ranking because it would probably be a dirty and dangerous job) who would direct a couple of helpers to collect the things he cannot handle himself. Undoubtedly, the chorae are marked so that they return (eventually) to the original owners. Enemy chorae found on the battlefield are possibly legitimate spoils, and anyway I suspect there is a flourishing black market in them (an impoverished noble family would also sell such a family heirloom to get capital - if they are "priceless" someone would soon set a value on them). When the Nansur won the battle against the Scylvendi, they must have "harvested/liberated" scores of Chorae, though they didn't get the one held by Cnaiür. view post

posted 21 Jan 2006, 16:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtHave you ordered your TTT yet? by anor277, Didact

TTT was also delivered to me in Europe from on 20.1.2006. The special postage cost more than the book. I am going for a long plane trip in 3 weeks and I hope to save the novel for the plane. view post

posted 21 Feb 2006, 23:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

Just to weigh in on the subject of the Mandate skin spy (whose presence in my opinion is an anomaly as a plot device), un-Simas could easily have learned the Gnosis from not only the Inchoroi brothers but also Merkeritrig or the undead Shauriatis - all of whom we assume are leading members of the Consult and there might be other members we don't know about. It would take little deception for a skin spy to participate in the Mandate dreams using modified cants of calling. And given the skin spies possible instructors (e.g. Shauriatis) I don't think this is unreasonable. Of course, given what we read in the first two books, a skin spy should not be able to pose as a sorceror anyway; even in the novel this skin spy is represented as a rarity among rarities, and his inclusion was very disappopinting. view post

posted 21 Feb 2006, 23:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Heron Spear by anor277, Didact

As a gigawatt laser, at least we were able to anticipate what the Heron spear was in the earlier books; of course we didn't know that it was actually of Inchoroi manufacture. It is probably safe to assume though that it is irrevocably lost - unless of course the later novels become "standard" fantasy and a quest is made to find an all powerful whatsit when the great evil stalks the Land. view post

What should we have anticipated? posted 22 Feb 2006, 00:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat should we have anticipated? by anor277, Didact

At the end of detective novels or fantasy novels we often remark at eventual disclosures, "I should have thought of that". I am trying to list those disclosures in TTT that we should reasonably have anticipated. 1. Simas' identity, the disclosure of the Mandate spy, is one thing that we could not reasonably anticipate, and a sorcerous skin spy is a very weak plot device. 2. The origin of the war between the Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim is something perhaps that we could have accounted for in the 1st 2 novels. The immediate reaction of the Saik when they encountered Skeaös was to blame the Cishaurim. Perhaps we should have twigged that the Cishaurim would have blamed the Scarlet Spires, when Möenghus revealed the first skin spies amongst the Fanim, especially given the fact that we knew that the Consult were also at war wih the Cishaurim. 3. I think someone in the earlier threads speculated that Maithanet was in fact the protege/son of Möenghus. This was an inspired guess because it turned out to be right. It seemed more reasonable to suggest Maithanet was a skin spy. This begs the question why would the skin spies would tolerate such a brilliant individual as head of the 1000 temples? On the other hand why would Maithanet tolerate the skin spy infestation of the 1000 temples - he played a very good hand, especially as there could have been no sorcerous communication between Maithanet and Möenghus as Maithanet was not a sorceror. Any other comments/suggestions? view post

posted 22 Feb 2006, 06:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat should we have anticipated? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":2k1zw94r]Personally I don't consider the Sorceror Skin-Spy a weak plot device at all, as I remarked in another thread I think it gives more depth and complexity to the world.[/quote:2k1zw94r] You are of course welcome to have this opinion. My problem is that it gives "more depth and complexity to the world" at the expense of rules that were established earlier in the novel - skin spies are fantastic beasties that are non-sorcerous artefacts, or so Achamian believed. The skin spy who masqueraded as Simas was a fantastic beasty who had sorcerous ability to boot! Quite a nonesuch. In a fantasy novel I think this is a weakness, especially as non-sorcerous skin spies could just as easily have infilitrated the Mandate. view post

posted 22 Feb 2006, 06:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":18jnobdk][quote="anor277":18jnobdk] Of course, given what we read in the first two books, a skin spy should not be able to pose as a sorceror anyway; even in the novel this skin spy is represented as a rarity among rarities, and his inclusion was very disappopinting.[/quote:18jnobdk] It was specifically mentioned as an aberation, and an aberation we would be glad the Consult never seemed to be able to duplicate. Personally I think it adds that much more depth to the metaphysics of the world, and shows that as always, the world of TPON is not cut and dry. Like the real world, there are always exceptions to the rule and more shades of grey than all of the colours of the rainbow.[/quote:18jnobdk] I replied first in the other thread to which you just replied. If you accept the aberration, how do we know that the Consult can never duplicate another Simas? How do we know in the next series of novels that Kellhus/Achamian/Nautzera etc. are not aberrant skin spies that turned off the principles? view post

posted 22 Feb 2006, 09:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat should we have anticipated? by anor277, Didact

[quote="unJon":omud46o6]Anor, I don't really understand your point. So the rules of the game were not as Akka thought them. Why is this a weakness again? You just kind of assert that it is, but I don't get your reasoning. Is it a weakness because it's a surprise? I kind of like my novels to not be so predictable or cliched. Is it because Akka should be infallible? In the start of the novel, sorcery did not exist at all, or so Kellhus believed. Was it a weakness when the rules were changed Kellhus was proved wrong. What is it about skin-spies that it's bad that they might be sorcerors? They are just creatures like any other. If you prick them, do they not bleed?[/quote:omud46o6] It seems I have not explained myself clearly. It is the author who sets the rules/logic of Earwa (however you spell it) - in the preceding novels skin spies were described as non-sorcerous artefacts. Once you allow one skin spy to practise sorcery, you allow another skin spy to practise sorcery. Therefore the identity of [i:omud46o6]any[/i:omud46o6] individual, sorcerous or not, in the Three Seas in any subsequent novel is suspect. The Consult may simply have replaced him or her. How do we know how any identity is safe henceforth? Must Kellhus vouch for them (if he in fact has not been replaced himself)? How can the reader make logical deductions about cause and effect? In the light of this thread's title is my point now clear? You are free to disagree of course. view post

posted 22 Feb 2006, 09:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

[quote="unJon":3o38s7yo][quote="anor277":3o38s7yo] If you accept the aberration, how do we know that the Consult can never duplicate another Simas? How do we know in the next series of novels that Kellhus/Achamian/Nautzera etc. are not aberrant skin spies that turned off the principles?[/quote:3o38s7yo] Huh? The Consult can't duplicate Simas because they can't even duplicate a regular skin-spy. The Consult no longer knows how to make them. The rest of what you write, I don't understand at all. What is turn off the principles? We know that Akka and Kellhus are not skin-spies because they have/will have POVs.[/quote:3o38s7yo] Unjon, I replied again in the other thread. "Turned off the principles" means a skin spy killed and replaced Kellhus, Nautzera etc. They might not have POVs in the next novels. view post

posted 22 Feb 2006, 22:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

[quote="Kingmanor":3ml40t36]What? With everything we have seen in this trilogy what makes you possibly think a skin-spy COULD kill Kellhus? With all his power he will somehow be replaced by a tekne'd creation? Gimme a break. The is zero evidence supporting that possibility.[/quote:3ml40t36] And yet given enough skin spies, the Consult would have turned off Kellhus at Caraskarand. Their ambush might have worked at Shimeh too - certainly Kellhus anticipated the possibility, which was was why he developed translocation to evade the trap Aurang had set. [quote="Kingmanor":3ml40t36]And considering the Prince of Nothing was about, well, the prince of nothing, what makes you think the Aspect Emperor will NOT have the POV of the aspect-emperor?[/quote:3ml40t36] How the fock should you or I know; the books have not been written. [quote="Kingmanor":3ml40t36]Main characters dying is one thing. Main characters replaced by subhuman creations that the entire three-seas knows about and NO ONE NOTICING is absolutely ridiculous. I cannot believe you even consider it.[/quote:3ml40t36] It seems we agree then. I certainly think it is absurd that a reader must remember that main characters could be killed and replaced by a demon (and only a Dunyain-trained can perceive them). And yet given skin spies with souls, or at least their possibility, this is precisely the situation that pertains. And I am pointing out the absurdity of this situation. view post

Re: The most important question about the Skin-Spy with a so posted 22 Feb 2006, 22:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe most important question about the Skin-Spy with a soul by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shryke":2g1pgfwl]Well there is alot of debate going on about how/why/where/etc involving the skin-spy with a soul I think we're missing the most important, and one of the most interesting questions: Why is it even in the book? I mean, that whole section could easily have been removed and the story, in my mind, would have lost none of it's internal logic. It doesn't seem to add anything needed for the PoN trilogy. So, this has me wondering, why is it in there at all? I have the feeling that this may become crucial to some later part of the whole story. It seems to me to be more of a set up for something coming in the future. My present theory is it will have something to do with our understanding of the No-God. It seems to exert complete control over the souless creations of the Inchoroi. It also seems to somehow fundamentaly lack some sort of self understanding. It's continually asking others to tell them what it is, what they see. Could self awareness and personal identity be somehow linked to having a soul? The normal skin-spies seem to possess no identity other then what they steal from others. Just a few thoughts I thought might be worth mulling over.[/quote:2g1pgfwl] @Shryke, I agree with you. The skin spy with a soul was not a necessity and contravened the internal logic of the novels. However, I think the most important question about the skin spy with a soul is, "What is a soul?". view post

Re: Conclusions posted 22 Feb 2006, 22:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat should we have anticipated? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Guest":2joze6ni]Am I the only one that knew from the FIRST time I read TDTCB that Simas was a skin-spy.[/quote:2joze6ni] Very probably, the internal logic of the first two novels denied the possibility of a sorcerous skin spy. [quote:2joze6ni] Even after it was "clarified" that skin spys were souless and thus incapable of practicing sorcery, I knew it was so. I was just waiting to understand HOW.[/quote:2joze6ni] And we're still waiting to understand. We don't know what a soul is and why its absence would prevent the practice of sorcery. [quote:2joze6ni] In that since I was a little disappointed; I'd hoped there would be a much more ingenuitive reason for why it was possible with the Simas-spy. Consider the implications if the Consult found a way to short-cut their way into a soul? Being able to create sorcerers aside, if you can "create" a soul then why can't you discover a way to keep it from being "damned?" It would end the need for an Apocalypse![/quote:2joze6ni] In fact one member of the Consult has already achieved that end, cf Shauriatis, the god cheater and one time grandmaster of the Mangaecca. view post

posted 23 Feb 2006, 01:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

@EE, I can remember years ago reading Larry Niven, on the writing of detective novels in science fiction. In a sci-fi world an apparently motiveless murder with no suspects could be explained by a time traveller coming back in time and killing the father of his (the time traveller's) worst enemy. Leaving the paradox aside, Larry Niven who did write several good sci fi detective stories assured his readers that he would not introduce time travel - because the consequences would defy logic. Now in the current fantasy novels, motive and aims and reasons are all areas of reasonable speculation and anticipation, given the logic and internal consistency of the fantasy world. For instance, if we'd been a little smarter, we may have realised why the Consult was at the war with the Cishaurim and why the Cishaurim attacked the Scarlet Spires at the end of the Warrior Prophet. It is my opinion that the sorcerous skin spy defies the internal logic of the novels, and the author has set these conditions - perhaps this is analagous to introducing the time traveller as before. Now according to Maithanet, Simas was a one-off, never to be repeated entity. This is a good thing because it gives us confidence in making further predictions in the next series of novels (but only if Maithanet is right of course). But I think the novels would have been much more internally consistent if the skin spies had no such ability and had infilitrated the Mandate by "mundane" means. If you disagree we must agree to differ. And since this "argument" is crossing a few threads we should restrict it to this one. [i:18t9wj5g] edited for another point [/i:18t9wj5g] view post

Re: Reincaration? posted 23 Feb 2006, 09:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

[quote="Cu Roi":2ei58vxb]This thought occured to me while writing in another forum. I intended to sleep but wanted to be sure that I wasn't imagining things. Entropic_existence, where does it say that the coming of the No-God interrupted the great cycle of souls? A cycle would imply reincarnation. A theme not yet touched upon in PoN. Curious.[/quote:2ei58vxb] I think the "great cycle of souls" interuption was mentioned in one of Achamian's dreams towards the end of TTT, I might find a page number a bit later. I think the reference was to the pandemic of still births that ensued after the No-God was summoned/created (which for mine was the most bloody evil thing I've ever read - in the evil stakes the No-God beats Sauron, Morgoth and Lord Voldemort, he's up there with Mrs Coulter). Anyway, the still births arguably did represent the interuption to the great cycle of souls, no new souls were introduced into the world during the No-God's existence. I don't think a reference to reincarnation is tenable. view post

posted 23 Feb 2006, 09:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

I think it is a very big variable to consider, possibly far beyond the range of normal fantasy. Alright, you win, but don't blame me if in 20 years time Esmenet wakes up next to a spider face. view post

posted 23 Feb 2006, 09:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

I think it is a very big variable to consider, possibly far beyond the range of normal fantasy. Alright, you win, but don't blame me if in 20 years time Esmenet wakes up next to a spider face. view post

posted 23 Feb 2006, 21:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

@WL, ah, but I've always been inflexible. I think you know why I think sorcerous skin spies are unreasonable (desperate to have the last word!). view post

posted 28 Feb 2006, 21:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi Origins/Aims by anor277, Didact

@IV, I know the Scylvendi are bad and hard. But it's hard to see them, to see anyone in fact, worshipping a God that denied fertility, that offered an inversion of the very basic human instincts. For this reason it seems likely that the No-God's holocaust was selective, i.e. it didn't effect the Scylvendi - can you imagine Cnaiür's (or equivalent) reaction when presented with a still born son? I don't know how that squares with ending the "great cycle of souls" and the Inchoroi's aims of closing the world. view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 04:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by anor277, Didact

I agree that Kellhus, arch manipulator, and incorrigible user of other people as means and not ends might not be entirely human. As for the alternatives, the Consult, the Imperium, the Schools, the 1000 temples, Kellhus is probably a far better choice as overlord. Prior to Kellhus, the Three Seas had rigid social stratification, slavery, subjection of women, internecine warfare etc; under Kellhus these things might well disappear or be alleviated, if only on the basis of utility. view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 20:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Ikiru":1u1utkho]EE has it right - a character can be on the side of good without being a "good guy," per se. In the same way, Cnaiur spends most of TTT allied with the evil skin-spies, but he's certainly not a "bad guy." Scott doesn't really do good guys, anyway. Most authors paint in shades of black and white; Erikson and Martin paint in shades of gray; Scott paints in shades of gray AND black. It's either semi-good or pure evil in this series.[/quote:1u1utkho] Ikiru, I think Cnaiür is a psychopath, at whom I wouldn't look at sideways, let alone walk on the same side of the street. Mind you I agree that it's a strength of the novels that sometimes we see him, rapist, wife beater, and pervert, in a sympathetic light. view post

posted 03 Mar 2006, 00:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by anor277, Didact

@Twayelph, as you say the only reference ot the Cirle of Nibel was in the glossary. The Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim have decimated each other, the Cishaurim completely (thanks to Kellhus), and the Scarlet Spires possibly only have the one sorceror of rank left - both of them are probably now minor schools at best and moribund. That leaves the Mandate of course. Now when Achamian agonized over whether he should teach Kellhus the Mandate, he (A) mentioned that Seswatha anticipated that the Gnosis should be retaught just before the 2nd apocalypse. Given Kellhus position, and the innocence of the Mandate quorum as to what Kellhus actually is, it is probably reasonable to anticipate that Kellhus might take over gnostic sorcerous training (perhaps with Dunyain training as well). The remaining schools, the Myunsai, and the Saik, are likely to be eclipsed. [i:385txs2y]edited for spelling[/i:385txs2y][/i] view post

posted 03 Mar 2006, 03:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by anor277, Didact

[quote="Ikiru":3d39cpqs]I think Kellhus will be pretty closely allied with the Mandate. Nautzera already seemed to be sycophantic toward him by the end of TTT. Does anyone think Kellhus's son by Esmi (assmuming it is a son) will become a gnostic sorcerer as well? I'm very curious as to whether Kellhus's son, as well as little moenghus, will be important in AE.[/quote:3d39cpqs] I thinkk it's very probable that little Moenghus will be of the few. Every Anasurimbor we've seen in the modern Three Seas was sorcerously gifted (i.e Kellhus' father, his half brother, and Kellhus himself). It might even be possible that the Anasurimbor's of Seswatha's time were also of the few but did not practise. Mind you in 20 years time Kellhus might have sired more bastards than Methusaleh. view post

Re: Seswatha's history posted 03 Mar 2006, 03:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's history by anor277, Didact

[quote="Abyss":br3m8azy]Sirwitta, is mentioned in the glossary, C-I wars entry, as a criminal who seduced and impregnanted a Nonmen/Cunuroi woman as was sentenced to the Second Watch on the I-C ark. Gets in, gets out, apparently goes nuts. Chats with a king and supposed to be excuted but imprisoned instead, supposedly has his tongue removed. The king in questions ends up chatting with the Inkys about immortality. Seswatha's entry states an origin of birth, son of a bronezesmith, child prodigy and so on. But such could easily be historically faked. The glossary even states, at various points, that the accuracy is up for debate and contradiction. But I'm wondering, speculating, at a connection... the Mandate dreams seem to only cover his experiences during the Apocalypse. And in Achy's recollections of the search thru the ark for the Heron Spear, Seswatha seems at times to know where he's going... like he's been there before. - Abyss, may be putting a lot in a name, but wonders....[/quote:br3m8azy] That's an interesting speculation, but all on the strength of a name. It may be that Siwatta's bastard offspring was Seswatha's ancestor (how many times removed?) - certainly NonMan ancestry is of a piece with Seswatha's prodigious sorcerous ability. view post

posted 03 Mar 2006, 05:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by anor277, Didact

[quote="unJon":222qzi94]Little Moenghus isn't Kellhus's son, though. I think that he'll definitely be in AE, but I don't think he'll be one of the few. Possibly he could be.[/quote:222qzi94] You're quite right. Little Moenghus is almost certainly the natural son of Cnauir. I was thinking of Esmenet's child by Kellhus who is still [i:222qzi94]in utero[/i:222qzi94]. view post

Re: Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 05 Mar 2006, 21:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":29td8hso]Isn't Maithanet an Anasuribor as well. Something I find interesting is that everyone seems to think that Kellhus, Moeghus, or Kellhus' children as possible Harbringers and Saviors but everyone seems to forget that Maithanet is Moenghus' son therefore an Anasurimbor. So doesn't that make it possible for himself or one of his children to be the harbringer and savior. Personally I think it would make perfect sense for him to be the Harbringer because he started the Holy War.[/quote:29td8hso] You're prefectly right, Maithanet is an Anasurimbor (where is the "u" with the circumflex?). He is also a potential sorceror. But while Maithanet might be the harbinger, his father Moenghus may be the harbinger with equal likelihood. It all boils down to whether we put in faith in prophecy. I think Kellhus himself is having a hard time with prophecy, whether to believe what he preaches or not. view post

posted 05 Mar 2006, 21:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2yzgcn58]Read pg 36-40 of WP and take special notice of the last sentence. Also notice the whole time she seemed to be getting him riled up about the Cishaurim and strongly disliked his pact with them. If im right i could see her being a skin spy since Xerius' childhood perhaps even the night she seduced him. I mean seducing your son and having him kill his own father to ensure his path to the throne, I mean what better way to manipulate and control an empire than that.[/quote:2yzgcn58] Even before the TTT appeared it was suggested that Xerius' mother had been replaced by a skin spy, on the strength of that passage and she was also uniquely vulnerable. However, in the absence of further evidence it is likely that the impersonation took place only about 10-12 years ago, i.e. when Moenghus first discovered the skin spies in the Three Seas. In other words Istriya(?) did not have to be a skin spy to emulate Nero's mother (Agrippina?). view post

posted 06 Mar 2006, 00:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

[quote="Diem Kaye":2wyet2zg]I think it's pretty safe to assume that the characters we didn't originally realize we're skin spies (Xerius's mother, Simas) were skin spies all along. Simas is the one that interests me, just because my first read through I had always assumed he'd been replaced sometime in TWP or TTT but I started reading the DtCB again, and Nautzera's feelings and thoughts regarding Simas during their dialogue leads me to think he was a skin spy far before the series even started.[/quote:2wyet2zg] Simas replacement must have taken place at least before Achamian confided to him about Inrau (maybe 2-3? years before the 1st novel) - unSimas wouild not have known about Inrau otherwise. However, the Skin Spies were a fairly recent development, and I suspect (I will have to reread the relevant info) that Moenghus as Mallahet was already part of the Cishaurim hierarchy before he noticed the arrival of the skin spies. This was 10 years ago, the time the Cishaurim turned off Sasheoka in misguided retaliation. Regarding Istriya's imposture, we have no way of knowing whether replacement was made before or after Skeaos unmasking. view post

posted 06 Mar 2006, 05:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":1owv4l0k]The Skin-Spies have been around for a long time, how long I don't know but certainly longer than 200 years since we have a Skin-Spy who was a Scylvendi then. I would think they've likely been around even longer, after all the Consult no longer even knows how to make them anymore. They were only discovered 10-12 years ago by Moenghus, or at least that is when he decided to reveal them.[/quote:1owv4l0k] @EE did (Aurang?) the bird man say that skin spies were no longer able to be manufactured or that they were difficult and costly to make? Maybe the sequencer back at Golgotterath is on the fritz. view post

posted 07 Mar 2006, 06:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

@EE, I reread the same passage last night. Aurang says that the skin spies are now so few in number. As regards Mallahet, conceivably, when he "outed" them they had just (or recently) replaced the original Cishaurim - his visual perception might not be good enough to discover them de novo, and he would have to have relied on the originals' voices if he discovered them by voice alone. @Noctis, it has been a long time since I read Robert Graves (or indeed watched the TV series) - Nero's grandfather (Agrippina the elder's husband?) was Germanicus right, and Agrippina younger survived her uncle and husband Claudius? Who needs skin spies when you've got Nero, Tiberius, and Caligula? view post

posted 07 Mar 2006, 23:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":36c3st3a]They could very well have been among the Fanim for only a short time, but all I was saying is 1)It's been decaded since Mallahet revealed them and 2)The Skin-Spies have existed for a minimum of 200 years given one was a Scylvendi 200 years ago.[/quote:36c3st3a] @EE, I don't dispute you, anyway, you said this in the opening posts. view post

posted 09 Mar 2006, 21:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat should we have anticipated? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":uf9q75og]Yes I agree there are numerous similarities between Dune and Prince of Nothing as I said in another thread, and that is an excellent example of one.[/quote:uf9q75og] Just as an another possible example of Bakker paying homage to earlier science fiction/fantasy last night I picked up an old copy of [i:uf9q75og]The Magician's Nephew[/i:uf9q75og] which is the forerunner to [i:uf9q75og]The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe[/i:uf9q75og]. The terrible witch queen Jadis, did have a sorcerous mark, and she claimed to see a much more dilute "mark" in Uncle Andrew (a very low sorceror). I wonder if Bakker, years ago, ever read the Narnia series (likely) and if the idea of a sorcerous stain developed from here. view post

posted 12 Mar 2006, 21:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

We're actually not supposed to know that Kellhus encountered Mekeretrig (or at least those who dislike spoilers would prefer not to know that). The idea that Mekeritrig showed mercy to Seswatha on the wall is a good one - and towards the end of the dream now that you recall it, it seems that the Non-Man may have relented. Of course, Seswatha might have escaped from the collar and the wall in a similar way to Achamian getting out of the circle (an improbable circumstance I know). As regards Mekeretrig's encounter with Kellhus, it may be significant that the Non-Man didn't know Kellhus was Dunyain (though he did know Kellhus was an Anasurimbor). Perhaps, the Non-Man simply forgot the encounter (he didn't take Kellhus' skin to jog his memory); as a "founding" member of the Consult (and he is probably still active), he simply may not have to report to the Inchoroi brothers or Shauriatis (however you spell it) - he may have bigger concerns, resurrecting the No-God for instance. view post

posted 12 Mar 2006, 22:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by anor277, Didact

The reference to "water" was also in a figurative sense to Fane's experience in the desert. The prophet Fane, an apostate Shrial priest, was banished to the desert. There, his prophetic visions and his life were sustained by the (literal) water bearers of the Indara(?) tribe. As someone remarked earlier, water was a precious commodity in the desert - Cishaurim sorcery was henceforth associated with the bearing of water. view post

Re: Glowing Hands posted 12 Mar 2006, 22:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlowing Hands by anor277, Didact

[quote="choladeva":2kv3wtr8]1) The halos around the Warrior Prophets hands... are they real? I mean, they were noted before he started training with Achamian (correct me if i'm wrong), and Kellhus mentions them as he approaches his conclusion that he is more than a dunyain. What are these halos? 2) Now that Kellhus has finished his mission, yet declared his difference, will the dunyain send another anasurimbor/dunyain assassin to kill him?[/quote:2kv3wtr8] I have no idea about the haloes. Regarding question (ii), the Dunyain have no way of knowing that Kellhus has completed his mission (they have also weeded out all the Dunyain who had sorcerous ability). The only way of the Dunyain finding out about Kellhus is if the Consult winkle out Ishual and ally with the Dunyain - as Kellhus remarked to Moenghus both the Consult and the Dunyain have the same broad aim, the closure of the world from the outside. Many here are of the opinion that the Consult [i:2kv3wtr8]will[/i:2kv3wtr8] ally themselves with the Dunyain. view post

posted 12 Mar 2006, 22:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlowing Hands by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":315e477v]Its likely that if the Dunyain are discovered they will A) Kill or capture them. B)Ally themselves if you could call them allies and manipulate the Consult for their own purposes. And just because both want to close themselves to the Outside so to speak I have a hard time believing that the Dunyain will ally themselves with someone who would be considered the outside to them Perhaps im wrong but if someone does find the Dunyain im not sure it will be the Consult.[/quote:315e477v] @WP, I agree with you, I was reporting a consensus of opinion (that may certainly be wrong). Personally, I think a Consult/Dunyain entente will be too unchallengeable; they could not be opposed. But who else could find the Dunyain? Not the men of the Three Seas - should Kellhus send a mission back to Ishual it would likely be wiped out on grounds that they would contaminate the Dunyain mission; and anyway the north is crawling with Sranc. Kellhus might even betray the location of the Dunyain to the Consult - the Consult have the resources to destroy Ishual - even thought it would be very costly for them. It is even conceivable that the Dunyain may remain in isolation. I certainly wouldn't care to forecast. view post

posted 13 Mar 2006, 02:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlowing Hands by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":1ks6tmnh]I think during the discussion between Moenghus and Kellhus, Moenghus said he contacted only those he remebered before he left Ishual that he knew were of the Few.[/quote:1ks6tmnh] I'll have to look through that passage as well - as far as I know Moenghus had no conception of sorcery before he left Ishual. His sorcerous message to the Dunyain (an effort which I recall him saying "nearly broke him") was indiscriminate, it was transmitted to all members with sorcerous aptitude - including Kellhus. Anyway, we'll both take another look at that passage. view post

Re: Chorae - Weapons of the Tekne? posted 13 Mar 2006, 03:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtChorae - Weapons of the Tekne? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Brady":i842n6ay]Does anyone else think that Chorae are possibly weapons first designed by the Inchoroi to combat the magic of the Non-men? I recall Akka (or maybe some other character) reflecting that no one knows where Chorae came from, or how they are created. The main clue that made me think the Chorae could be 'weapons of the Void' is during one of the Ciphrang POVs in TTT. Zioz recognizes the Chorae only as 'absences'', which perked my interest. Absence implies that the Chorae lack something that links them to the world, and to the Outside. Zioz, as a creature of the Outside, cannot quite fathom what they are, because they are alien to Earwa. They are things of the void, like the Sranc or skin-spies.[/quote:i842n6ay] I think the glossary contains references to Non-Men sorcerors of the Aporos, who, as renegades designed the Chorae, which were then used by the Inchoroi as a defense against the mighty Non-Men sorcerors (i.e. the An-aporetic ones to use a double negative). In other words, the chorae are [i:i842n6ay]not[/i:i842n6ay] Techne artefacts but Non-Men ones. view post

posted 13 Mar 2006, 04:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":12dtiyj5]No-God was not created during the time of i the Cuno-Inchoroi wars he came after.[/quote:12dtiyj5] I think that Brady's point was that the Non-Man we are informed was Mekeritrig made the claim to Kellhus, (from memory)..."I am a warrior of ages.......I have ridden for and against the No-God......" or something along those lines. Now this might be an error in the story (i.e. the chronology was not mature at this point in TDTCB) or it may actually point to a episode in M's long life when he fought the No-God. I do appreciate that Cuno-Inchoroi wars antedated the No-God by millenia(?). view post

posted 13 Mar 2006, 22:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

[quote="unJon":put5bz29]*agrees with WP*[/quote:put5bz29] Agreed, Moenghus talked of the void "twice" rising up in the world; this referred to (i) the Inchoroi, and (ii) the renascent Consult. It is mentioned elsewhere that should the No-God return it will be his "second coming". Mekeritrig's claim that he fought for and against the No-God is either in error or must fit in the confines of the 1st apocalypse (i.e. the Kuniuri/Consult war and not the Ishroi/Inchoroi war). view post

posted 13 Mar 2006, 22:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":axfs28r3][quote="Edge of Certainty":axfs28r3]I posted this opinion in the "soul poll" as well: I think that this particular skin spy had just been a shell for the soul of an Inchoroi. My reason for this theory is that both the synthese and the skin spies are reffered to as "artifacts" of the Inchoroi. If the soul of an Inchoroi can be bound to a synthese body, why not a skin spy body as well? The consult needed someone with a soul to perform sorcery and also, one can't help but imagine that the experience of an Inchoroi over that of a soulless skin spy could only help while in the presence of the Mandate. What confuses me is when Nautzera realizes that he had always known, or always suspected or somthing along those lines....did anyone catch that?[/quote:axfs28r3] I replied to this in your other message in the poll section. While it may be possible for an Inchoroi to bind its soul to a Skin-Spy I don't think it would, that and we can reason out for a fact that Simas was neither Aurang nor Aurax, the only two Inchoroi left alive.[/quote:axfs28r3] I agree with you. Aurang bound his soul to Esmenet (he possessed her), he should be able to do the same to a soulless vessel, a skin spy. Should he do so, it would be bloody dangerous - it would leave him too exposed and vulnerable. As to the other bodily form Aurang took, i.e. when he first seduced Esmenet in TDTCB, I am at a loss - does he conjure the body up or does it follow him everywhere in a box? Of course I don't know what a soul is - this might be a more interesting question. view post

posted 14 Mar 2006, 04:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":25gu5qx9]The only problem is that Mekeretrig is the one who revealed the location of the Ark to what would become the Consult in the first place, which I would think would have placed him on the side of the Inchoroi and Consult in the beginning. Hmmm yea it could just be a mistake or it could mean something more significant. If it is significant I don't think Scott will be telling us anytime soon :)[/quote:25gu5qx9] It's also mentioned that the Inchoroi brothers seduced (their captor?) Mekeritrig who in turn seduced (shades of "turned to the dark side") Shauriatis, grandmaster of the Mangaecca. I also recall that Achamian remembers that Celmomas II had M. struck off some Kuniuric scroll of honour for his transgressions. At the moment I think we may attribute Mekeritrig's claim to an appalling Non-man memory. view post

posted 15 Mar 2006, 05:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by anor277, Didact

[quote="unJon":77fcocrv]Alright, I just want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing now so I'll try to spell out the two theories. Event: In TDTCB and WP, Esmi has sex with a "man" that turns out to be something else and ejaculates black semen. Theory 1 (mine): the "man" is actually an illusion. Aurang uses a glamour to make Esmi see a man, but it is actually the Synthese itself (black bird with a little human head) that is present in the room with Esmi and ejaculates black semen. Theory 2 (others): the "man" is actually some creation of the Tekne (maybe a skin spy, maybe some creation we haven't seen before), that Aurang possesses to have sex with Esmi. Do I have the theories correct? If so let me just restate what I see as the problems with 2. Basically, if it's a skin-spy it shouldn't be black semen. The only creature that we have seen ejaculate black is Aurax at the end of TWPb. If its some other creation of the Tekne, what is it? Certainly nothing we have heard of before. The Tekne creature that could pass for a man is a skin-spy. Are you saying that you think that there are other "man" creatures out there in addition to the skin-spies?[/quote:77fcocrv] I think you've summarized the options correctly (you are making me sick to think of it at least). The suggestion I think was that the synthese totes around a golem type thing, which he inhabits when he wants to give someone a good seeing-to. Perhaps we are over-analyzing this. view post

posted 16 Mar 2006, 00:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCiphrang, altogether confusing by anor277, Didact

Interestingly enough, the Ciphrang could arguably be described as lesser Gods. Likewise the Gods of the Inrithi are more potent demons (that's how Aurang disparaged the Gods that would damn him for eternity). I am a bit perplexed as to how Iyokus (after his blinding) could summon demons that were able to overcome Achamian, whereas the demon he summoned at Iothiath were not his (A's) match. view post

posted 16 Mar 2006, 00:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

[quote="H":znwwqqi7]But the fact that he doesn't know what he is would point to his not being a 'god' and actually have been created somehow...[/quote:znwwqqi7] The carapace of the No-God was also covered with chorae. He is obviously a different order from the Ciphrang, lesser gods who were affected by chorae. The nature of the No-God and his relationaship to the Consult will be one of the most interesting discoveries we make in the next novels. While the Consult "raised" him, it is hard to see such a terrifying being under the control of Shauriatis, Mekeritrig, etc. By the same token the Sranc, the Bashrag, the Wracu, were clearly under the No-Gods control - witness one of Seswatha's dreams where he battles a dragon "Your god (i.e. the dragons) is not a God at all". And why did the Scylvendi worship him? view post

posted 22 Mar 2006, 00:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by anor277, Didact

Just to add to EE's reply, there is little evidence to suggest that the Dunyain is not still functioning. Those members who were contaminated by Moenghus sorcerous sending in TDTCB commited suicide, all save Kellhus - whom the remaining Dunyain sent to assassinate the sender Moenghus. This suggests that the Dunyain want to insulate themselves from the outside world. An alliance between the Dunyain and the Consult is not at all far-fetcheed. view post

posted 25 Mar 2006, 00:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

Why shouldn't Achamian kneel to Kellhus? His (A's) penultimate action was to betray Kellhus to the Consult, and for what? Just because Kellhus took Achamian's girlfriend, whom he (A) did not properly appreciate. Surely it's time for Achamian to grow up, he is old enough. view post

posted 26 Mar 2006, 21:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":nke1da1m][quote:nke1da1m]Why shouldn't Achamian kneel to Kellhus? His (A's) penultimate action was to betray Kellhus to the Consult, and for what? Just because Kellhus took Achamian's girlfriend, whom he (A) did not properly appreciate. Surely it's time for Achamian to grow up, he is old enough.[/quote:nke1da1m] Didn't properly appreciate her,are you kidding me how did he not appreciate her?[/quote:nke1da1m] A variety of reasons, this list could be expanded (i) by shagging Serwe, (ii) by putting his school and his mission no.1, (iii) by periodically abandoning her, (iv) by not marrying her, and (v) worst of all, by not letting her go. view post

posted 26 Mar 2006, 23:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":eejclq4b]1.) i would say it was more of Serwe shagging Akka. 2.) If he had put his school at number 1 he would have told them about Kellhus. 3.) Theres so many ways i could argue this one im not. 4.) Honestly who would have married him i doubt a priest would do it and I would call what they had a marriage i dont think someone needs to tell you that your married. 5.) Would you have let her go if you loved her?[/quote:eejclq4b] @WP, I don't really want to argue either, but you did ask for reasons why Achamian is not entirely blameless for his predicament, Esmenet was always no.2 or no. 3 on his list of priorities - if you want or don't want to provide excuses for him that is fine by me. Just regarding (i), I do think that Achamian got off very easy regarding Serwe - the "woman tempted me" is of course a time-honoured excuse, but I am surprised that another woman (Esmenet) accepted it - I wouldn't accept it and I am not even a woman. As for your last question, I do hope I would love someone enough to leave her alone if she had made her decision to be in another relationship. To finish I am sure I am not the only person on these boards to think Achamian is behaving like an adolescent. view post

Re: Aspect-Emperor of What? posted 27 Mar 2006, 00:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtDELETED by anor277, Didact

[quote="Erekassos Knerceannis":7eww2age]At the end of TTT, we see Anasurimbor Kellhuss being crowned Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas. What exactly does this mean? It seems to be giving the impression that Kellhuss is now the overlord of the entire Three Seas, or is he just the Emperor of the conquered territories plus the Nansurium? Altogether confusing..... :roll: [/i][/quote:7eww2age] I think it is fairly clear that all the potentates of the Three-Seas, if not the current, actual rulers then their heirs, have accepted Kellhus as high king and prophet. The only exception is the Nansur empire, and the next Nansur ruler will probably be vetted by Kellhus or Maithanet (or both). This would mean that Kellhus is emperor of High Ainon, Conriya, Galeoth etc. etc. and all the conquered territories. view post

posted 27 Mar 2006, 06:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":30ta8pjj].................*sarcasm* Trying to save the world and do whats right at the same time is very childish..............[/quote:30ta8pjj] I agree that Achamian's betrayal of Kellhus, to members of that organisation which was also Achamian's mortal, age-old enemy, was not childish. It was vindictive. view post

posted 03 Apr 2006, 23:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

[quote="H":hsxd3sco]But that's assuming the Dunyain don't already know about souls. The fact that they just happened to breed, not only supperiour manipulators and phisical warriors, but also super socerers as well, strikes me as not so coincidental. Plus, the Dunyain themselves wouldn't belive in coincidence, 8) Not only that, but they lied to Kellhus and the others about sorcery. They had to have known that sorcery existed, and would still exist. They had to have lied for a reason... So if they understood sorcery, shouldn't they have at least a slight knowledge of the soul? Perhaps i'm off track here, but i would tend to think so...[/quote:hsxd3sco] This view certainly contradicts the few facts we know of the Dunyain. The Dunyain are innocent of the knoweldge of sorcery - they expunged all such records when they occupied Ishual, Kellhus was amazed (and defeated) by his first experience of sorcery, a similar revelation probably befell Moenghus. Both Moenghus and Kelllhus held that the Dunyain were masters of the mundane. They were consistent in their belief that the Dunyain had no knowledge of the arcane. Even though the Dunyain bred (unknowingly) prodigious sorcerors with souls (whatever they are) at present we would be mistaken to think that this is anything but coincidence. view post

posted 10 Apr 2006, 22:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":12j3vdkq]If I was going to rank the actions of Kelhus and Cnaiur as "most evil" (excluding the good actions of both) I think Kelhus's would rank as more evil. Cnaiur may rape and kill you for looking at him sideways but he'll let you know it. Kelhus would trick you into dropping your own pants and bending over so to speak. He'd also convince you to ask for it and say please.[/quote:12j3vdkq] Even given your scenario I'd still take Kellhus (so would you I think?) and rank Cnaiur as more evil (if we can actually call someone that deranged evil). After all what does a lover do? He tries to seduce his beloved, to captivate her, to consume her (or him), to be the centre of her being - and the lover may be motivated by sexual desire, by gratification, as much as by love. What Kellhus "did" to Serwe and Esmenet (and what Moenghus did to Cnaiur) were only the actions of world-born men, but much more effectively and more clinically. view post

posted 11 Apr 2006, 04:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":3dm4ctc6]Intent, not method, is often more telling when looking at something like this. Sorry but I'm sticking to what I said... Kelhus' actions are frequently "more evil" in a moral sense than those of Cnaiur. Cnaiur is deranged and nasty, but he does his dirty work himself and does it to your face. Kelhus manipulates on a mass level in order to achieve his goals, using people as tools.[/quote:3dm4ctc6] I've already acknowledged Kellhus' "moral" failings in this thread. And at least for most of his mission, so far as we know it, his intent is much more morally defensible than his methods. view post

posted 13 Apr 2006, 09:04 in The Thousandfold Thoughtif you were in his shoes... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":1dfnvf4y]If i were Akka as soon as i heard about Kellhus with Esmi i would have roasted the bastard on the circumfix but hey thats just me. but if had gotten all the way to the point of Kellhus becoming Aspect Emperor i would have done the same thing as he did. and yes Akka kicks ass[/quote:1dfnvf4y] And would such a jealous action endeared him to Esmenet? I recall that Achamian's rejection of Kellhus occurred after he (A) had betrayed him (K) to the Consult. I have argued before that had Kellhus not taken Esmenet as his lover she likely would have been long dead upon Achamian's return. Achamian has never contemplated that scenario for all his jealousy. view post

posted 17 Apr 2006, 03:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Aspect Emperor, Inrithism, Fanimry, and the Schools by anor277, Didact

It's an irony of the series that the Scylvendi, who worship Mog for unknown reasons, actually (and accurately) refer to the Inrithi as "god killers" - i.e. the periodic Xtian conception of the Jews. Hence the Scylvendi predation of Kyranae, Cenei, and the Nansur. view post

posted 17 Apr 2006, 21:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Aspect Emperor, Inrithism, Fanimry, and the Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="zarathustra":2g6cdgjy]I've got vague memories from the TDTCB that they followed the same Tusk based religion as everyone else up until the Apocalypse. So perhaps Mog made them an offer they couldn't refuse. On the other hand being nomadic pastrolists this would have put them at odds with the established kingdoms at the time making them natural allies (well kind of) of the No-God.[/quote:2g6cdgjy] As you say, Cnaiur himself reveals in TDTCB that his people once worshipped the Tusk, before the advent of the No-God. Mind you I wonder what Cnaiur's equivalent in Mog's time said had one of his wives presented him with the 2nd still born baby - perhaps the Scylvendi managed to evade that particular plague somehow. Correcting what I said earlier, perhaps it was the Ketyai (and not the Inrithi) who were regarded by the Scylvendi as "god-killers". view post

posted 18 Apr 2006, 01:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Aspect Emperor, Inrithism, Fanimry, and the Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2psg50m4]Its likely that the they consider both Inrithi and Ketyai both god-killers as most Ketyai are Inrithi.[/quote:2psg50m4] I only mentioned it because I thought some smart@rse would point out that there were no Inrithi in Mog's time; well it's too late now. That the Sclyvendi neighboured the Ketyai empires, Kyranae, Cenei, etc. no doubt underpinned Scylvendi "worship". view post

Re: Kellhus's sorcery... posted 19 Apr 2006, 00:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus's sorcery... by anor277, Didact

[quote="n0g0d":1bo1r345]Kellhus uses the gnosis a higher level than any Mandati actually. But because he does it "properly", as he has acquired TTT, he is not marked. Is Kellhus immune to such artifacts as chorae? Since the "psukhe" is basically a failed imitation of Kellhus's personal enlightened view of what sorcery is( the Cishaurim also do not bear the mark), does that mean that Kellhus can practise Cishaurim magic. He also has other powers, glowing hands and so on. Some sort of sainthood power...why does he have to rely on abstractions? He does communicate with God, but is he not ready to simply bend reality w/o using Gnostic words? :twisted:[/quote:1bo1r345] As far as we know Kellhus is now marked and he certainly is vulnerable to chorae - witness his action after he "teleported" to Shimeh, he conjured a vortex of whirling debris around him to protect himself from chorae projectiles. When he plucked a bolt out of the air with a chorae attached, this was a tour de force made possible only by his preternatural reflexes (had he grabbed the hot end he would have regretted it). As regards his sorcerous powers, certainly it is not yet mature - he is unpractised and inexperienced though possessed of enormous potential. Achamian himself said that he (A) would have been able to overcome him (K) as a sorceror; and the Cishaurim primaries in concert were apparently more than his match on the occasion above. Doubtless Kellhus' sorcerours power will develop in the next few years under Mandate teaching - to the extent of surpassing his teachers (the Mandate quorum, as Achamian had warned them, are in for some interesting times). To echo EE, Kellhus' mastery of the thousand fold thought was something separate from his sorcery after all he grasped TTT well before Achamian's teaching. As a prophet, or someone sent by God, we simply don't know yet whether he is authentic or not. Kellhus once asked Achamian "do you think the God would be anything but remote?" (I'm paraphrasing). It may be that he is simply taking the marks, world-born men, along for a ride - that was Moenghus' conclusion. When does AE come out? view post

posted 19 Apr 2006, 22:04 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by anor277, Didact

[quote="n0g0d":1yz1lybm]What I mean is that Anasurimbur Moenghus was immersed in the Probability Trance for years. He seems to have kept himself to the labyrinths under that tree. He was also busy breaking the skin-spies. Yet, the Consult [b:1yz1lybm]was no longer able to infiltrate the Fanim world! [/b:1yz1lybm]They feared Moenghus. They had no idea what would be waiting them. Now it seems that the Cishaurim only use those snakes when necessary. It probably uses Water. They don't scope everyone and try to look at the soul all the time. Moenghus who excelled at Third Sight detected them with the inconsistencies in their voices. He simply wasn't looking. How they interact with their snakes is not very known, as in different levels of vision. [u:1yz1lybm]Looking at how shiny one soul is, isn't something very relevant I think, so it might not be something they do all the time.[/u:1yz1lybm] But then once they know what to look for, I suppose they can use their skill and screen everyone. Moenghus being intelligent would probably have every influential person checked like Kellhus did. [u:1yz1lybm]Not one could infiltrate the Fanim [/u:1yz1lybm]world whilst Moenghus was in his hole...Shimeh is big. The Cishaurim must have been taking care of that how else could Moenghus keep the [b:1yz1lybm]Consult completely clueless. [/b:1yz1lybm] They just were showed what to look for. It's simple. It's not abstract though. It is plausible. A lot is of the paths,[u:1yz1lybm] not necessarily the shortest though.[/u:1yz1lybm][/quote:1yz1lybm] Kellhus himself speculated that Moenghus revealed the skin-spies by discrepancies in their voice; i.e. his vision as a Cishaurim was insufficient to reveal the imposture. It is likely that Moenghus also taught his adherents within the Cishaurim to suss out any skin spies - the suspicion would be enough, Esmenet and the Scarlet Spires revealed skin spies by purely mundane means. Maithanent is also another example - surely he was trained by Moenghus - and he was good also at sniffing out the skin spies. In other words while Moenghus detected the 1st skin spy in Fanim lands it is not necessary for him to have detected all of them - he could leave that to others, and the others seem to have done a good job. I don't know what Scott said on the Q & A forum, but given all this it seems likely that the Cishaurim detected Consult infiltration solely by mundane means, and we can appreciate this on the strength of the information given in the novels. The Cishaurim with whom Kellhus communicated in TWP (in Caraskarand?) said that he and the other members of Moenghus' faction [i:1yz1lybm]could[/i:1yz1lybm] perceive Kellhus, on what basis I don't know, his remarkable soul?, some other signature?, his similarity to Moenghus?, or (likeliest?) did Moenghus teach them to look out for his son? We simply don't know enough about the Cishaurim's ways of seeing - a way of seeing that is arguably inferior to actual sight. view post

posted 20 Apr 2006, 22:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus's sorcery... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":15ily4jd]................... 4. Kellhus DID rip out his heart. Scott never said the statement was wrong just confusing. He ALSO ripped out Serwe's. To recap the removal of his own heart, read the musings of Eleazares in the beginning of TTT. I have yet to understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Tribal peoples from South America and Africa have been temporaily removing their inner organs for quite some time, though the reasoning for it is lost to me; irregardless, it's not new. Scott just took it to the next level and made the removal permanent.[/quote:15ily4jd] I meant to reply to this before, but in the passage you mention Eleazaras also muses that the heart episode had to be a trick, which it certainly was. How could someone rip their heart out and put it back in? - even with "glittering abstractions of the Gnosis", and that was not available to Kellhus at the time. And it certainly does not seem like the logical move to rip one's heart out after crucifixion. As for the psychic surgeons of the non-fantasy world, the ones I've read about had their share of concealed pigs' hearts and bladders full of blood, i.e. they were performing sleight of hand not surgery. view post

Re: What exactly is a "god"? posted 01 May 2006, 23:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":2qye0rhd]I don't know if this has been said yet in this very long post but, when I think of Tsurumah, I think of Ciphrang. He is summoned from the Outside like the Ciphrang. His mere existence is anithetical to life (see Womb Plague) like Zioz was to the grass and general vegetation of the grounds on which he stood as he battled Achamian at the end of TTT. Akka mentioned that Zioz was no ordinary demon; that the Ciphrang's mark was like concentrated light. What am I getting at? I think Tsurumah is an Avatar or spirit so old and "aware" that it might as well be an Avatar, however Avatar's are basically low-level gods (Demi-God) which explains why he is considered a god by his followers. I guess we need to define what a "god" is.[/quote:2qye0rhd] You're undoubtedly right as to the need for definitions. Mind you the greater demons were referred to as "sulfurous godlings" and the lesser gods are arguably more powerful demons. The demons (and the gods?) share one signal difference with old Mog: the demons (and perhaps the gods?) were vulnerable to chorae (cf Iyokus conjuring in Shimeh perceived the chorae as absences). From the only description we have of Mog, he was not greatly troubled by chorae. Maybe the chorae act as binding agents as an ealrier poster suggested; but it seems as likely that Mog is of a different order to the demons. view post

Re: The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 04 May 2006, 23:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Cynical Cat":2ayxi4p3]As of the end of the book, there are two trained Dunyain in the Three Seas (to the best of our knowledge) Kelhus and Maithanet. However, Kellhus is fairly certain that he will have a Dunyain child with Esmenet. He is Dunyain and she has at least an above average intelligence ( I don't recall any references to her reflexes). With the proper training, their child will be a Dunyain (and possibly one of the Few). Maithanet is the product of the same kind of decision. Moenghis would have chosen a woman with the desirable characteristics (intelligence and reflexes) to pass down to their child. The Dunyain aren't superhuman after all, merely occupying the higher end of human intelligence and reflexes. It is the combination of those traits with Dunyain training which produces extraordinary results. So what next? Are there more sons of Moenghis? Has Maithanet put his own plans into play? Will Kellhus train others who have the right potential?[/quote:2ayxi4p3] While the children of Esmenet and Kellhus may be prodigally intelligent, and his/her father may try to train them in Dunyain techniques (this also goes for Moenghus jr as well), it's hard to see Kellhus recreating a little Dunyain, one that competes with the training Kellhus received. As to Maithanet, Moegnhus himself said that he was [i:2ayxi4p3]not[/i:2ayxi4p3] Dunyain, i.e. he is no doubt highly intelligent and perceptive and capable of long term planning, but he is nowhere near the equal of his father or his half brother, both of whom were trained in Ishual. Back in Ishual, when Kellhus recalls his training, there is the implication that had he not grasped the final principle his teacher (whose name I cannot recall) would have casually killed him, i.e. Kellhus was another defective. This would be reasonably hard to do with world born children (even in the Three Seas, where sons and daughters are casually sold into slavery). Perhaps Kellhus will even become a good father. As to the other children of Moenghus (and I agree that might be several, cf Cnauir's mother but her bastard was killed), they will probably grow up to be quite intelligent . Without Dunyain training, they are likely to be imprisoned by circumstance. view post

posted 14 May 2006, 22:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Fate of Conphas by anor277, Didact

I think we've reached a consensus there. Conphas is dead. The scene early in the novel when Conphas confronts Kellhus as the prophet, and Kellhus picks apart Conphas' pretensions and personality was brilliantly dramatic. And it couldn't have happened to a more deserving moral degenerate. view post

Re: Kellhus=Machiavellianism posted 19 May 2006, 04:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus=Machiavellianism by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2ykkbeet]Would you consider Kellhus a good example of Machiavellianism or no? If your not familiar with Machiavellianism simple explanation here [url:2ykkbeet][/url:2ykkbeet] Just not sure you could classify him as such.[/quote:2ykkbeet] It's been a long while since I tried to read [i:2ykkbeet]The Prince[/i:2ykkbeet]; it was pretty hard going as I recall. In answer to your question, I think Kellhus exceeds all Macchiavelli's aspirations. A better book on [i:2ykkbeet]realpolitik[/i:2ykkbeet] is in my opinion Basil Liddel Hart's [i:2ykkbeet]Strategy[/i:2ykkbeet], in which he opines that the essence of strategy is to keep your enemy totally ignorant and confused as to what you are actually doing, and as to what your real aims are. Kellhus has scored highly in both respects. view post

posted 24 May 2006, 01:05 in The Thousandfold Thoughtnonmen by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":3624nv5j]I can't remember an actual description of nonmen. How do they differ from men, physically?[/quote:3624nv5j] Unknown so far. In TDTCB Kellhus immediately sussed that his opponent in the far north was not human. Achamian (in his dreams as Seswatha) talks of Mekeritrig's inhumanly handsome face - apparently Nonmen are good sorts. view post

posted 24 May 2006, 23:05 in The Thousandfold Thoughtnonmen by anor277, Didact

[quote="zarathustra":13ba2e94]The thing I don't get is that the Nonmen are descibed as prenaturally beautiful but the same time bald and with fused teeth. Its certainly not a traditional human concept of beauty.[/quote:13ba2e94] I don't recall the reference to "baldness" and "fused teeth", but it could simply be the result of their lifespan. The Nonmen, those that survived, are physically immortal but probably their immortality is not accompanied by eternal youth, like Tithonus of Greek legend (certainly now the Nonmen have no Inchoroi physcians if they are not with the Consult). Baldness, bad dentures, creaky joints, crotchetiness etc. might all be maladies the Nonmen might be expected to suffer, even though they still retain some hints of their youthful beauty (they probably also complain about the government fulltime, taxes, lack of respect by once subject races etc.) view post

posted 31 May 2006, 23:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by anor277, Didact

[quote="Another guest":3j57c2l9]................ The heron spear, the only thing that can harm the no-god is lost, and little is said about it other than that. The one thing that is said is that Seswatha himself came with the heron spear and fought the no-god. He was the world's savior even though he wanted another to wield it originally (I think). What if Seswatha was the last person to use the spear? What if he hid it and told no one of it? What if part of the reason that Seswatha plagues the Mandati's dreams is that when the circumstances are right one of his mandati will think just like him. Or at least enough to "remember" where he put it. This would keep it safe, so no one could get it or use it or destroy it. The only one .........................................[/quote:3j57c2l9] Seswatha, as far as we know, had nothing to do with the Herons spear's final destination - it was lost to the Scylvendi in the sack of Cenei - possibly long years after Seswatha's death (perhaps someone could fill in the time line). Should the Mandate know of its whereabouts (and Achamian didn't) they would probably store it in the hoariest crypt they have - possibly next to Seswatha's heart. For mine, the Heron Spear is probably long gone - and long inoperative (interestingly it is not mentioned as a tactical weapon against hordes of Sranc or Dragons, though it was certainly such a weapon in the hands of Sil against the Non-Men. Anaxophus used it exclusively as a weapon against the No-God.) view post

posted 07 Jun 2006, 23:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnaiur by anor277, Didact

Just on the topic of Cnaiur. While I agree he is a brilliantly written, original character - a mad, ballbreaking bull fag - I think it's a bit hard to accept that he will be revived. Why should the Consult do it? He has knowledge (some) of Kellhus and Moenghus, but then so did Serwe and Esmenet and Achamian - Achamian might even give the Consult that knowledge [i:3kh21bzx]gratis[/i:3kh21bzx] now. As a warrior, Cnaiur was prodigious, but as a general Skauras tricked him beautifully and his only value to Kellhus was to teach him warfare, and Kellhus rapidly assimiliated Cnaiur's knowledge and surpassed his teacher. So I don't think there is much percentage in giving Cnaiur a Consult army, even if the Consult can preserve him. view post

posted 08 Jun 2006, 22:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnaiur by anor277, Didact

[quote="Dragyn":2v2eiyqz] Frankly, while I can see Achamian turning his back on his School, I can't imagine he would ever want to work with the Consult or knowingly help them in any way. Seswatha's Dreams, if nothing else, are his constant reminder of the unspeakable evil the Consult can work if they do succeed again. That sort of prejudice would be nigh-impossible to change, even if the Consult were openly working against Kellhus. To me, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" just doesn't seem to fit here.[/quote:2v2eiyqz] You don't have to imagine, Achamian has already worked with the Consult. He "betrayed" Kellhus to Cnaiur and the skin spies, who were manifestly Consult agents. I don't suggest that it is likely that the Consult would recruit Achamian (but then again who knows, it remains a possibility - Achamian is damned as much as the Consult) but A's insane jealousy might lead him to do unthinkable things (as it has already). view post

Re: Akka posted 08 Jun 2006, 22:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAkka by anor277, Didact

[quote="sunnKHANN":q4hvzguh]Right, no fancy introduction post, I'm not feeling up to it. :lol: Just, in general, where do we think Akka is going to go now? He's an outcast, a Wizard, and has refused his wife and his Prophet. However, he should still have the Seswathan Homonculus locked into his [wherever: soul/subconcious], so I don't see how he could possibly turn to the Consult?[/quote:q4hvzguh] I addressed this point in the other thread (now we'll have two cross threads arguments going! good one, I can't leave well enough alone). The point is Achamian [i:q4hvzguh]has[/i:q4hvzguh] already turned to the Consult - by betraying Kellhus to Cnaiur. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that he could work with them again. And I know he had his reasons, I don't personally think that they are all that compelling. Maybe in the future Achamian will think that the ultimate Consult aim is not such a bad thing - Achamian is damned as much as they are. Seswatha, in some way, is still a part of Achamian, but then again he is part of every Mandate sorceror. At least we know in the next few years, Achamian will certainly become an historian. view post

posted 09 Jul 2006, 23:07 in The Thousandfold Thoughtnonmen by anor277, Didact

[quote="Virus":2qpq28lm]Yes but do we know for sure that they were different than men before the inchoroi or could this be the name men attributed to them when they recorded their history? hmm?[/quote:2qpq28lm] I think we know for sure to a high degree of certainty. There were true men in Earwa (kept as slaves or clients of the Non-men) before the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. Of course the name "Non-men" was something that was applied to them by the founding tribes in the breaking of the gates - I think somewhere in the glossary, this is mentioned, i.e. "Non-men", "Others", "Not us" all names from a human perspective. view post

posted 15 Aug 2006, 23:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAkka the Anarchist by anor277, Didact

Just on topic re Achamian;s future relations with Kellhus. I think it is unlikely that Achamian will survive in the next few years without Kellhus' intercession. Achamian is now a renegade, not only has he repudiated a prophet, he has also repudiated his school (a school that is now arguably the most powerful in the Three Seas and which is probably no longer infested by spies). Given those prospects, it is unlikely that Achamian can avoid a price on his head - unless of course Kellhus, for whatever reason, gratitude, guilt, mercy (if he can feel these things) chooses to stay his hand and refuse to countenance Achamian's prosecution.. view post

posted 28 Aug 2006, 22:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

My post above, whoops! view post

posted 30 Aug 2006, 05:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":2hbfjkpe]I do not remember where it is at in the books but we are told that the Inchorai summoned the No-God rather than creating him.[/quote:2hbfjkpe] And they summoned him complete with a chorae casing, or did fit they fit the device to him later? They also apparently summoned him with a built in mechanism for commanding worship from biotechnological artefacts, the Sranc, the Wracu etc. I don't wish to argue the point really, the truth is we don't know and your guess is certainly as good as mine. I hope Scott's conception of the No-God, whatever he turns out to be, lives up to our expectations. view post

posted 20 Sep 2006, 00:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtHeresiarch of the Cishaurim by anor277, Didact

[quote="alhana":dqn2yijy]................ I wonder if when Esmi's baby is born, if the reminder of Serwe will poison her mind and if she will fear for the "position" of her own son and ask that Moehengus be removed from the family. I think some sort of power struggle between these two sons will happen at some point and could have some similarities to these biblical siblings.[/quote:dqn2yijy] To continue the biblical parallel, in 20 years time Kellhus would have probably sired more bastards than Methuselah. Anyway, Moenghus is almost certainly not Kellhus' natural son, but Cnaiur's. All Kellhus future offspring (and Moenghus), however many they are, will probably be extensions of Kellhus' will - Kellhus is still the seeing man in the kingdom of the blind. view post

posted 28 Sep 2006, 23:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Cynical Cat":28j7rbac][quote="vercint":28j7rbac] First, I think we can say for certain that many of the Dunyain are of the Few. Moenghus contacted them through dreams, using the Cishaurim version of the spell Akka names 'Calling'. In TWP Akka explains how this cant works: the person doing the calling must know the person he's calling to, and he must know where the person is. Logically, both people must also be of the Few.[/quote:28j7rbac] This doesn't follow. You have shown no reason why the reciever has to be one of the Few. I don't necessarily disagree, but the only thing that has been established is that the sender must be a sorcerer, not the reciever must be one of the Few. That in every other instance in the books both are sorcerers tends to support that both must be of the Few, but you didn't mention that. As for numbers, giiven the Dunyain's limited gene pool and mental training, its likely a lot of them are among the Few.[/quote:28j7rbac] I think you are being a bit too literal here. The internal logic of the book strongly suggest that both caller and receiver must be of the few; though it apparently does not leave a mark on the receiver (cf Kellhus who certainly received the dream but was not marked until her uttered his 1st cant). As regards the Dunyain with sorcerous ability, (or at least those who received Moenghus sending), we were told near the beginning of the series that they had all been turned off to prevent contamination (I think it was suicide, wasn't it?) view post

Re: Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 02 Oct 2006, 00:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3l3g4cko].................. Some questions. Where is Shaeonanra now? What is his place in The Consult? The glossary mentions that he never died, making him about 3,000 years old.[/quote:3l3g4cko] Achamian also mentioned him in the novel proper, in context of the present. It is extremely likely that he is still a Consult director. view post

posted 12 Oct 2006, 23:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":ulc9jn8x]This raises a good point how does the outside veiw sorcery and evil in Earwa. I believe the whole damnation toward sorcerers is man made as a control to check sorcerous powers.[/quote:ulc9jn8x] The demons (and arguably the Gods) are vulnerable to chorae (well at least Iyokus' demon on top of Shimeh sensed a chorae as an absence). Maybe they are jealous of the use of sorcery, that is they don't tolerate a human sorceror practising something that they believe is their special preserve; hence damnation in the afterlife for sorcerors who infringe divine prerogatives, who ape the voice of God. But, as you say, condemnation of sorcery might well be a social construct. How easy can it be to get the laity to worship an unseen divine force when certain mortals manifestly exercise divine power. For the Fanim it is no problem, Cishaurim sorcery is divinely sanctioned, but for the 1000 temples there is no such sanction. Mind you I found it pretty funny when Kellhus relaxed Shrial strictures against sorcery; who elected him God? (I know, the rest of the Three Seas did.) view post

posted 13 Oct 2006, 06:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":o0k28ceb][quote="anor277":o0k28ceb] The demons (and arguably the Gods) are vulnerable to chorae (well at least Iyokus' demon on top of Shimeh sensed a chorae as an absence). [/quote:o0k28ceb] I believe the Demons and Gods are one in the same -- they are all simply outside agencies. Whether something is a demon or a god simply depends on your perspective. For example, the Fanim consider the Hundred Gods to all be Demons.[/quote:o0k28ceb] I think the Inchoroi share your opinion; Aurang referred to the "sulfurous godlings" who would damn him to perdition. Whether there is a God beyond that (the God for whom Fane was the prophet for instance) is another matter. view post

posted 16 Oct 2006, 23:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":14gswz0f][quote:14gswz0f]That could be true but I think Kellhus's conditioning would bring him out of any delusion of simply acting out a part so long.[/quote:14gswz0f] True if he were still a Dunyain his conditioning would bring him out of any delusions but thats the whole point hes been broken by his ordeal his conditioning cant help him in that regard.[/quote:14gswz0f] Broken by his ordeal, or tempered? The Dunyain are undeniably supermen, but I think most of us agree that they are a little bit less than human. Kellhus, with Dunyain training and human experience, could indeed be something more than either party. Certainly, in the short term, I see him as a more capable and a more just ruler than Shriah, emperor, or Scarlet Spires. view post

Re: Why did Moenghus leave Ishual? posted 17 Oct 2006, 05:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhy did Moenghus leave Ishual? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3gebb0n2]Was this ever explained? And if not, do you have any theories?[/quote:3gebb0n2] It was briefly explained in the first novel (or the second?). A pack of Sranc blundered into Ishual, were dealt with, and Moenghus was despatched to gain intelligence on Sranc incursions. When he returned he was judged to be contaminated (a visit to Atrithau perhaps?), and was banished from Ishual. Moenghus then turns up in the hands of the Scylvendi, who apparently rescued him from slavery at the hands of the Sranc. view post

posted 18 Oct 2006, 23:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":t65zmmx2]Wow. No that's not what I was trying to say at all. <damn you brain>............I was trying to say that his belief in his predestination as the harbringer seems to be taking-on on a more religious tint (as per his conversation with Moenghus). Instead of looking at the matter objectively - (that he has been commisioned by a higher power(s) to stand against the Consult) - he's taken the "halo situation" to the next level and started to think of himself as something relative to the prohphet he's lied to the Earwans about being. He's started to show signs of having "blind faith" which means he's slowly losing the objectivity that made it possible for him to conquer half a continent. ...................[/quote:t65zmmx2] I am not so sure that Kellhus believes in his own predestination as much as has been suggested. Certainly he has sold the lie to his followers (but does not every prophet do that?); the idea that even he is being deceived by his lies is a good one - he is in effect rationalizing and justifying the blind faith that the Inrithi invest in [i:t65zmmx2]him[/i:t65zmmx2]. However, he has at times voiced his doubts on predestination, on prophecy, and his Dunyain training must surely disavow any such possibility. His apparent belief in himself as a harbinger may therefore be open to question. In some part of his prodigious brain, he may fully realise that his position as prophet is a means to an end: to lead all of the Three Seas against the Consult. view post

posted 19 Oct 2006, 01:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":3ulkur7f]By telling his Father that he is the Harbringer and speaks to a higher being shows that he certainly believes he is aprophet of some sort because telling his father that as a lie would serve Kellhus no purpose.[/quote:3ulkur7f] Unless he wishes to show his father that his (K's) ordeals have deranged him. And, in fact, from memory, during that conversation Kellhus thinks to himself, "let him think that I waver". That conversation between two Dunyain is beyond me, plots within plots within plots. I don't know how to interpret it; each protaganist was unwilling to show his hand, to speak beyond generalities; Moenghus himself had the reasonabe suspicion that Kellhus was going to kill him; Kellhus knew that Moenghus would defend himself. You may be right; then again Kellhus may think he is that [i:3ulkur7f]higher being[/i:3ulkur7f], greater than the Dunyain, greater than any sorceror (like that old joke, "I must be a God, because when I was praying, I realized that I was talking to myself"). Anyway as harbinger, self-perceived or otherwise, he has his work cut out. view post

posted 19 Oct 2006, 23:10 in Author Q &amp; AGnosis vs. Anagogis, and sorcery in general by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":3td8nvih]Isnt it a bit more likely that he will unify all the Schools into one Super School?[/quote:3td8nvih] I wished you'd posted this in the discussion threads; I don't like lurking here. That suggestion is a good one. And he has the nucleus of such a school in the Mandate, its numbers undiminished by the crusade (save Achamian and Simas) - no doubt Kellhus will have gained far too much influence over them, before any of the quorum will begin to realize the depth of his control. Kellhus no doubt has much to learn about the Gnosis (and he might learn it in a couple of weeks given his record), but he also has much to teach. Just on this point, it was mentioned in the novels that Seswatha himself warned that the Mandate must eventually share its knowledge of the Gnosis in the advent of the 2nd apocalypse. view post

Re: Thoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools posted 20 Oct 2006, 00:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2jwbqabs]With the Schools weakened greatly what are your ideas about whats next for them. I personally think that Kellhus will unite the Schools into one Super School. Not only does Kellhus have enough power to do this he also has good reason to do it, by uniting the Schools animosity and war between Schools would cease to exist and help focus on a common enemy(The Consult).[/quote:2jwbqabs] @WP, thanks for starting this here; I don't like spoilers and while Scott has lately been reluctant to answer questions in the Q & A threads, there is always the chance he might return and give us God's phone number. Anyway, as you say, Kellhus will very probably form a super-school for sorcerors. Sorcerors, the few, are much too valuable to serve as free agents, even when organized into schools their ambition is too dangerous. He has the Saik to draw on, and also the Mandate, which would be the nucleus of the new school. Neither school was much affected by the crusade that took Shimeh. Kellhus own studies in sorcery will no doubt continue. He no longer has Achamian, but he has the best of the Mandate to teach him (arguably more capable and more learned than his old teacher); given Kellhus record he might learn all they have to teach in months if not weeks. Of course, the Mandate might expect to bind him to their cause by the Seswatha ritual, but as Achamian warned earlier warned the Mandate, Kellhus "possesses" and would not be possessed. Of course, I assume that the school would be Gnostic. And of course Kellhus is now the only person in the Three Seas who really understands what sorcery is; new acolytes learning sorcery, with Dunyain input to some extent from Kellhus, would be formidable indeed. And they would be totally devoted to Kellhus. Of course, I've ignored the jealousy of the other schools, but of them, only the Mandate has the potential to challenge the Warrior Prophet. And I suspect Kellhus will flatter their vanity; he will appear as their prophesied saviour; the heir of Celmomas and Seswatha, incorruptible, invulnerable - warrior, prophet, sage, and sorceror, and as a bonus he is giving the sorcerors a "get out of gaol free card" with respect to damnation. So to conclude the Mandate will surrender the Gnosis not only to Kellhus, but also to Kellhus' future proteges. view post

posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":cg7sfrcu]Do you really think that the Qourum members are better suited to teach Kellhus than Achamian is/was with Akka's new connection to Seswatha Im thinking he will be needing Akka at some point to help him.[/quote:cg7sfrcu] I know that Achamian at one point considered himself to be the leader of the Mandate, however, he did remain a field agent; he was despised by the leader of the Scarlet Spires (I can't recall his name at the moment) for that reason. Perhaps, had Achamian stayed with his school, he might have moved up in rank and knowledge. Nevertheless, the present members of the mandate quorum must dwarf him in sorcerous ability and knowledge of the arcana; there is also quite probably an extensive library in the Mandate stronghold (I forget the name at the moment, and maybe Gnostic sorcery is far too valuable a commodity to put into print or allow to remain in print). I know that Achamian was a good teacher, a vocation not to be despised, however, a brilliant student may make up for the teacher's shortcomings, and I think that Kellhus will winkle out all that the quorum can teach him. As to Achamian's connection to Seswatha, a lot has been said about it on these boards. I don't think there is much evidence of this yet in the novels. All the members of the mandate had intense dreams; we were witness to some of them because they were shared. view post

posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":3vxth7q7][quote:3vxth7q7]Really, only the Red Spires were weakened[/quote:3vxth7q7] I hope you mean Scarlet Spires. The Saik also took a minor loss with the Grandmaster dead and quite a few Sorcs of Rank from the Saik. When I say weakened Im not just talking about losses of actual sorcerers Im talking about weakened power wise. The Myunsai as mercenaries will likely not even have a role in the Kellhus' new Three Seas.[/quote:3vxth7q7] Just wanted to add that if Kellhus is (reasonably) the de fact ruler of the Three Seas, all that is important to him is sorcerous ability. He could command all of the Few to serve him; it matters little whether they were former members of the Myunsai, the Saik, or even the Cishaurim (if there are any of them left - the Scarlet Spires may have succeeded in their war aim but at such a cost). Kellhus might simply dissolve the Schools except the Mandate, and use the Mandate as a nucleus of a new school devoted to him. view post

posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2g4abdtj][quote:2g4abdtj]As to Achamian's connection to Seswatha, a lot has been said about it on these boards. I don't think there is much evidence of this yet in the novels. All the members of the mandate had intense dreams; we were witness to some of them because they were shared.[/quote:2g4abdtj] I was less talking about the intensity of the dreams and was more talking about the change of events and nature of the Dreams, also Akka's annihalation of the SS imprisoning him and his overall attitude has changed drastically. It seems to me that if anyone is going to be the Seswatha incarnate it will be Akka. However if the connection exists the knowledge Akka could obtain would be immensely useful to Kellhus[/quote:2g4abdtj] I do acknowledge that Achamian could yet prove useful to Kellhus. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the other matter. When Achamian renounced the Mandate, he renounced Seswatha as much as he was able. Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [i:2g4abdtj]edited for extra points[/i:2g4abdtj] view post

posted 21 Oct 2006, 23:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":2sbyo3t0][quote="anor277":2sbyo3t0]I do acknowledge that Achamian could yet prove useful to Kellhus. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the other matter. When Achamian renounced the Mandate, he renounced Seswatha as much as he was able. Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [i:2sbyo3t0]edited for extra points[/i:2sbyo3t0][/quote:2sbyo3t0] I STRONGLY disagree with this. [/quote:2sbyo3t0] This is your prerogative. And as I said earlier, I agree to your disagreement. You have offered no evidence as to why Achamian has a "special relationship" with Seswatha beyond what you feel (and who knows, you may be right). Achamian denounced the Mandate as criminals and murderers; the Mandate was Seswatha's instrument, and he took extraordinary steps so that it remained faithful to his original aims. In this respect I feel that Achamian denounced Seswatha as much as he denounced the present Mandate. [quote:2sbyo3t0]I don't view Akka's defection from the Mandate (and certainly not his schism with Kellhus) to have any bearing on his relationship with Seswatha. It was only alluded to in the last half of TTT, but I think the relationship between Akka and Sessa will be of a higher "grade" than that of any other Mandati. Besides, you don't need to be associated with a faction to oppose the Consult or venerate an Ascendant (i.e. Seswatha). [/quote:2sbyo3t0] Well, we agree on one thing. Achamian's resignation from the Mandate probably does not affect the Mandate rituals. He will remain afflicted by the dreams; as indeed will every Mandate schoolman. They are as affected as he is; had Seswatha appeared to Achamian, and said "Akka, just who is this pigeon Kellhus?", you'd have a case to argue but in the absence of that... Again, certainly Achamian needn't be associated with a faction to oppose the Consult, but I never suggested otherwise. As to Seswatha as an ascendant, that's a long bow to draw. Seswatha, as far we know is long dead; venerated by the Mandate of course and his relics still serve some purpose. In any case, even after [i:2sbyo3t0]The Bonehunters[/i:2sbyo3t0] I still don't know what an ascendant is and what distinguishes one from any other extraordinary individual. view post

posted 22 Oct 2006, 05:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":21kcx2u4][quote:21kcx2u4]Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [/quote:21kcx2u4] I would say he made a neccessary sacrifice and deep down Nau-Cayuti knew that his wife/whatever was dead. Dont forget he made many personal sacrifices for the World not for himself. After all he was only human and did the best he was capable of.[/quote:21kcx2u4] No doubt Seswatha did make necessary sacrifices; but they were sacrifices of other persons as well as those made on his own behalf. I think this is even evident in what little we have been told of the Sagas: Seswatha occupied an ambivalent role, saviour of humanity in one source, scheming evil genius in the next. Of course he was a human, but not all other humans were as strong as he and not all other humans had his strength, and Seswatha seemed to have little tolerance of his fellows' weakness. Perhaps the best instance of this was when the Scarlet Spires tortured Xinemus as a lever over Achamian. I recall that Seswatha's reply (or at least his presence in Achamian) was "I know him not". And this would have been the same reply if the Scarlet Spires had Esmenet or say a dozen infants in their clutches. Maybe in a grander scheme, all of Seswatha's actions are justifiable, I still regard him as morally damned. view post

posted 01 Nov 2006, 22:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":35rk1lhg]Do not forget that Kellhus stated that skin-soies lacked the depth of humans but rather they were a shadow of human depth. Something to that degree was stated. For reference it was statedin TTT at a point were Akka was talking to Kellhus about how hard it was to break skin spies.[/quote:35rk1lhg] As I recall, Kellhus or Achamian observed that the Skin Spies were products of strong conditioning; i.e. response only to a given set of circumstances. Kellhus, Dunyain trained, [i:35rk1lhg]could[/i:35rk1lhg] break the conditioning but this would be a programme of years. Moenghus, also Dunyain trained, did have years to break the Skin Spies he had captured; hence they revealed the Consult's plans. view post

posted 02 Nov 2006, 03:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":74w2i4sm]Only as much as they knew about the Consult's plans.[/quote:74w2i4sm] And that knowledge may have been considerable. For instance, (i) they knew of the Consult's master plan to close the world; (ii) they knew why the Consult was at war with the Cishaurim; (iii) they also knew that an extraordinary skin spy had been placed in the upper echelons of the Mandate. (With its spies the Consult would have been better served to operate on a need to know basis.) view post

posted 07 Nov 2006, 22:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":3c1nubre]Theres a post by Scott on this board that Ive been unable to locate that discusses souls and such and I believe he siad any creature is capable of aquiring a soul though certain means.[/quote:3c1nubre] Presumably the certain means include buying one on Ebay? Anyway the question of souls is probably one for which we're never going to get an answer - we don't what they are , we don't what they do, and we don't why possessing one should differentiate that individual from a soulless one. view post

posted 07 Nov 2006, 22:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSpeculation on Iyokus' future role by anor277, Didact

I think you are suggesting that Iyokus might escape "possession" because of his irrelevance - i.e. he is powerful but not powerful enough. For me it's hard to see Iyokus as little more than a nuisance. While he is a practitioner of the Daimos, we have seen how impotent Daimotic sorcery is against the Gnosis; against Kellhus, who might develop the Gnosis to a new level, a demon might not even clear the gun out of the holster. It would also be difficult for Iyokus or indeed anyone prominent to engage in intrigue with the Consult. And then why should Iyokus do so? He is damned (possibly), but then he was damned before, and Kellhus might offer absolution. Also Iyokus, alone of his school, was aware of the possibility that the Consult existed. He is possibly also aware now that Kellhus represents the Three Seas' only hope. It was mentioned that no-one in the Three-Seas knew the source of chanv, to which Iyokus is addicted; if the Consult are the source maybe they will use this as a lever. view post

posted 08 Nov 2006, 22:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSpeculation on Iyokus' future role by anor277, Didact

[quote="Will":18ibsxku]I concur that demons might be ineffective against Kellhus' person, but as Aspect Emperor his designs will doubtless include many people far less invulnerable. It might even be that his role is to get chumped to show how cool Kellhus is. As to the why, if one has escaped posession there is little reason to follow Kellhus. Universally the reaction to discovering his "true motives" is abject horror and rejection. Cnaiur, Akka...upon awakening they repudiate him. In the chanv-enforced calm Kellhus' claims to salvation may ring less clear than the Consults. Another possibilty is that Iyokus has enough emotion to remember hate. Now this is sort of me trying to have it both ways, but Kellhus had his minion take the man's eyes. Iyokus might not be able to forgive that, or alternatively he could be simply power hungry. He might blame Kellhus for the near-extinction of the SS. There are many reasons to oppose Kellhus. I like your idea about the chanv supply also, I had missed that.[/quote:18ibsxku] I certainly don't discount the possibility of Iyokus turning to the Consult for any number of reasons. However, the man responsible for taking Iyokus' eyes was not Kellhus nor even Achamian, it was his then grandmaster Eleazaras - he was offered as a sop to Achamian to prevent his (A's) indiscriminate vengeance; Eleazaras also must bear the major responsibility for the evisceration of his own school. And as the spymaster of the Scarlet Spires, Iyokus must fully realise this (he said something of the sort when he met Achamian again?). In fact Iyokus, fairly emotionless, might even be grateful to Achamian for his forbearance. The punishment fitted the crime. As regards Cnaiur's and Achamian repudiation of Kellhus when they are "awakened", are they reacting to Kellhus' moral degeneracy; or are they simply reacting to the fact that they have been used as means? Both Achamian, the former spy, and Cnaiur, the psychopathic rapist and wife beater, must know all about using people as means not ends - Achamian at the least desires that Kellhus achieves those ends. [i:18ibsxku]edited to labour the point[/i:18ibsxku] view post

posted 10 Nov 2006, 01:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":r78nv1js]In my opinion, based on the musings of both Kelhus and Cnaiur on the nature of the Skin-Spies, there seems to be a distinction between consciousness and the soul. The Skin-Spies are self-aware, but they lack depth. To the casual observer there is no difference, but to people who see a little deeper and know what they are looking for there is a difference.[/quote:r78nv1js] As far as I can recall, Kellhus and Moenghus did not discover the Skin Spies because of their soul or lack of it; it was by purely mundane means. Kellhus recognized the 1st skin spy he encountered (the Nansur emperor's vizier, I can't remember either name) by his facial musculature, (or lack of it). Kellhus opined that Moenghus uncovered the Cishaurim skin-spies thru discrepancies in their voices. view post

posted 13 Nov 2006, 05:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtConsult Knowledge by anor277, Didact

[quote="Guardsman Bass":4uw5twpo]................. Frankly, it's a miracle the Consult actually managed to assemble the No-God. It makes me wonder if the Inchoroi, before being essentially annihilated barring two members, actually completed most of the work on it, so all the Consult was required to do was figure out how the pieces went together. Certainly they (the pre-Curunoi War Inchoroi) seemed to have a better grasp on the Tekne then; that was when they built the Sranc, Wracu, and Bashrags.[/quote:4uw5twpo] The alternative explanation is that the No-God was not an artefact, but that the Consult raised him by unspecified sorcerous means - and then maybe he is both demon and artefact. In the root tales to this series I am most interested in how a technologically advanced race, the Inchoroi, came to terms with a world in which both sorcery and damnation were manifest. In fact the surviving Inchoroi (all 2 of them) might be a bit of an anomaly with respect to their long-dead fellows in that Aurang certainly can practise sorcery (or was he transferred to a vessel that could practise sorcery - maybe a bit difficult when a soul is arguably the pre-requisite to such practice). Difficult to speculate too much in the absence of so many vital pieces of evidence. view post

posted 01 Dec 2006, 05:12 in Author Q &amp; AInchoroi motivations and the quantum mechanics by anor277, Didact

[quote="unJon":lpb75ksa]QED by Richard Feynman is a great introduction to some quantum mechanical principals (namely quantum electro-dynamics or the interaction of photons and electrons). Hardly any math, clearly and consicely written. And as easy to understand as is probably possible.[/quote:lpb75ksa] Agreed on Feynman's treatment of QED. Nevertheless, I think as a metaphor for sorcery, a fictional thinkg which we don't understand, quantum mechanics, an actual thing we don't understand, doesn't work at all. view post

Re: wards posted 07 Dec 2006, 21:12 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwards by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":1kf6v97d]In TTT we see Kellhus kill a couple of sorcerers with his sword. He would teleport behind them and whack death would come swirling down. My understanding is that a skin ward would protect from that but appearantly not. Does anyone else have some light to shed on the matter.[/quote:1kf6v97d] The Anagnosis/Gnosis may have developed wards of the manner you describe. We don't know that the Cishaurim had the same arts at their disposal. There was a passage at Shimeh where the Cishaurim were described as not caring about their lives and safety, only caring about their faith (of whom does that remind us?). Anyway if wards there were, Kellhus certainly penetrated them - in one instance he used a chorae for which the ward would have been transparent. view post

posted 13 Dec 2006, 22:12 in Author Q &amp; AInchoroi motivations and the quantum mechanics by anor277, Didact

[quote="unJon":4s8gxkxj][quote="anor277":4s8gxkxj][quote="unJon":4s8gxkxj]QED by Richard Feynman is a great introduction to some quantum mechanical principals (namely quantum electro-dynamics or the interaction of photons and electrons). Hardly any math, clearly and consicely written. And as easy to understand as is probably possible.[/quote:4s8gxkxj] Agreed on Feynman's treatment of QED. Nevertheless, I think as a metaphor for sorcery, a fictional thinkg which we don't understand, quantum mechanics, an actual thing we don't understand, doesn't work at all.[/quote:4s8gxkxj] Wait a second. I don't understand women. I don't understand cricket. You mean women not equal to cricket? *cries in corner* :lol:[/quote:4s8gxkxj] Richard Feynmann would probably agree with you. Two of my university lecturers had actually taken physics courses under Feynmann. They said that his lectures were a riot; funny, entertaining, yet at the same time he presented the material in a way that compelled understanding and further effort on the part of his students. Was it in "Surely you're joking Mr Feynmann" that Feynmann gave advice on how to pick up girls? PS There's nothing much to understand about cricket. But it helps if you come from Australia, NZ, England, South Africa or the Indian subcontinent. view post

posted 19 Dec 2006, 21:12 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":gx8n71x0] ...........................Taking that to heart, we return to look on Achamian and his dreams. They are becoming just that; [i:gx8n71x0]his[/i:gx8n71x0] dreams. Dreams are subconcious thoughts, fears, hurts, loves, emotions as a whole, rearing from the blackness of our soul trying to find form in our sleeping minds. We know that throughout the books Achamian dreams, a handful of times, his own dreams. The one I'm specifically speaking of, though unfortunantly I can't find the passage, is when Achamian dreams of Esmenet and Kellhus. A result of his feelings of betrayal. ............[/quote:gx8n71x0] Quite so, Achamian's dreams became his property, an expression of his experience rather than that of Seswatha. The dreams before Achamian's trials had all been shared by members of the Mandate; indeed, shared dreams were the basis of sorcerous communication, as we have seen in the novels. There may be parallels between Achamian and Seswatha, but as far as we know Seswatha is long dead, and Achamian's sorcerous rpower could hardly be compared with Seswatha's. view post

posted 07 Jan 2007, 22:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":5nyo2opw]Just as a premise to the following, I think the main problem many of you encounter in your Mekeritrig speculation is mixed chronology. Not to say that Cû'jara Cinmoi's timeline is skewed, as anor suggested, but that many of you don't have a keen understanding of the timeline to begin with. [u:5nyo2opw][i:5nyo2opw]Cet'ingira[/i:5nyo2opw][/u:5nyo2opw]: What astounds me about Nonmen, though predominantly Cet'ingira as he is still prominent in Eärwa even in 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, is that any living had been there the day Cû'jara Cinmoi laid Hanalinqû's corpse before the unholy Ark. Cet'ingira then has walked Eärwa a very long time. I'd come to assume, and now have learnt after stumbling upon it's entry in TTT Glossary, that the Breaking of the Gates marks 0 Year-of-the-Tusk. Before the Cûno-Halaroi Wars, the wars between Nonmen and Men, the Cûnoroi had waged a five century long war against the Inchoroi throughout Eärwa and for a fifth of a century throughout the Ark itself. Cet'ingira himself was one of those Cûnoroi, whether he'd been born days before the Womb-Plague or was already an adult by Cûnoroi standards. We can assume he's been living for at least four and a half millennia warring against uncountable foes beside Cûnoroi, Man, and Consult. In 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira, Nonmen Quya, Siqu to King Carû-Ongonean of Ancient Umeria, and I assume long Erratic, revealed the glamour surrounding the Ark to the Gnostic sorcerers of the Mangaecca. I keep kicking myself everytime I read the following quote by anor, or half quote as I've edited it a bit, about Mekeritrig's turning. For the life of me, I cannot find where I read it before. Perhaps, had I tackled this thread before the holidays, and subsequent holiday book purchases I made, I might have had an easier time finding it. However, post-holidays, I have about 9 unread books to read, though two have already been devoured. Metaphorically speaking anyhow. So my mind is not as attune to Mr. Bakker's world as it was. [quote:5nyo2opw]It's also mentioned that the Inchoroi brothers seduced (their captor?) Mekeritrig who in turn revealed Min-Uroikas to the then grandmaster of the Mangaecca[/quote:5nyo2opw] Sometime between the beginning of the Cûnoroi-Inchoroi Wars and 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira had an encounter with the Inchoroi, Aurang and Aurax. Apparently, he was their captor. In 825 Year-of-the-Tusk the period of Norsirai-Cûnoroi trade ended and the Nonmen Siqu retreated to their Mansions. In the years between the Expulsion and the outlawing of Shaeönanra and the Mangaecca in 1123, we can assume that Cet'ingira was circulating between the Mansions and Min-Uroikas. Cet'ingira's influence on the Mangaecca and the Consult was likely invaluable, as he was obviously a remarkable Quya and warrior. The same goes for the timeframe between 1123 and Celmomas II's First Ordeal. In my speculation it is at this time during either the first or Second Great Investiture, though I'm leaning towards the Second, that Mekertrig openly renounces his Mansion and Peoples for the Inchoroi and the Consult. [quote:5nyo2opw]"I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . [i:5nyo2opw]ages[/i:5nyo2opw]. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and [i:5nyo2opw]for[/i:5nyo2opw] the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury."[/quote:5nyo2opw] My speculation is that when Mekeritrig meets Kellhus in the wilderness of Sobel, he is describing to Kellhus his desertion in the above quote. I speculate that during the Second Great Investiture, Mekeritrig was part of Nil'giccas's contingent. I have a vision in my head of Mekeritrig scaling Golgotterath in the lightning and rain, the twin horns of the Ark framing him, and upon reaching the ramparts, insteading of attacking, merely turns to Celmomas II and bows his chin to his shoulder before turning into his new Mansion as it were. Anyhow, I'm don't mean to seemingly cut this post short or anything but I want to quickly read it over and finally post before I head out for the afternoon. Gotta book it to a buddies house, and then to work as usual. SSDD. Hope anyone reading out there enjoyed.[/quote:5nyo2opw] @Madness, congratgulations, at the moment you're the only one on this forum to be making original postings. I have been up to my elbows in baby poo for the past two weeks; it's only now I am back at work I have time to spare. Your speculations re Mekeritrig are reasonable; whether they are sound as well is a question we'll have to wait. There is so much that we don't know. Despite some tantalizing glimpses into Non-men culture in TTT, we know next to nothing about Non-men culture and society; we also know that Non-men society was moribund during most of human history. In fact, but for a comment by Scott (which he possibly regrets making, I regret reading it), we would not have known that the Non-man Kellhus encountered in the far North was Mekeritrig, arch betrayer and evil genius of the Consult; such knowledge appears nowhere in the novels. Of course of the surviving Non-men, given their experiences, it is a wonder that they are all not entirely bonkers, i.e. life spans in the order of 5000+ years, perpetual youth (which might have broken down a bit over the ages), the end of their ancient race as an evolving force - as far as revenge went, certanly the Inchoroi authored a terrible vengeance on the Non-Men. Scott mentioned somehwere that the last Non-men kings spend much of their time developing strategies to prevent all of their remaining subjects from descending into madness What we'll learn in the next few novels probebly won't answer all our questions view post

posted 14 Jan 2007, 22:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtJust finished.. few questions. by anor277, Didact

[quote="shadow9d9":2s1a8zup]Ok one more question. If Maithanet could see skin spies... why did Inrau get killed by the Consult within Maithanet's midst?[/quote:2s1a8zup] As you say, Maithanet in all probability could see skin-spies (as part of his father's training); he certainly could perceive sorcerors. It does seem a little unrealistic that the Consult would tolerate such an extraordinary individual as Shriah but given what we know now M's role is reasonable. Maithanet evidently played a brilliant game within the 1000 temples. He (i) managed to infiltrate it and eventually take it over its heirarchy; and (ii) he tolerated the skin spies (already?) within the 1000 temples and manifestly allowed them freedom of action (cf Inrau) (this was a classic Dunyain manouevre - the Consult no doubt thought it was they who controlled the 1000 temples). Of course, since Maithanet "knew" that the Scarlet Spires were at war with the Cishaurim, it was fairly easy for him to devise a programme that would serve his and his father's aims and still serve that of the Consult (i.e. he was a driving force behind effective prosecution of the Holy War; the Consult, while Maithanet pursued this end, and was apparently unaligned, was happy to let Maithanet remain Shriah. Of course the Consult must have been completely unaware that Maithanet had anything to do with the Cishaurim). It will be interating in the next series of novels to see Maithanet's relationship with his brother Kellhus. Maithanet, possibly more than Achamian and Cnaiur, has an idea of what Kellhus is. Perhaps M is sufficienly pragmatic to work with his brother; perhaps he knows that independent action against Kellhus is futile. view post

posted 16 Jan 2007, 00:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtFor people ReReading by anor277, Didact

Just on the topic of "salting", I think it was mentioned somewhere that Non-men sorcerors, who had practised for 1000+ years and in whom the mark was deeply ingrained, would salt even in the mere proximity of a chorae even [i:x1r5btzf]without[/i:x1r5btzf] physical contact. (The salting idea is a nice biblical touch by the author, Lot's wife etc.; common salt was also deadly to witches in folklore - mind you its hardly chemically sound). It is reasonable that Moenghus would have had some resistance to the chorae. I'm reluctant to agree that Moenghus survived, however, for the very reason that Kellhus had put a gaping wound in him beforehand and I doubt K would have made a mistake with such a dangerous adversary as his father. We shall see. PS @WP I was also intrigued with that scene with Aurang and the boy collecting salt (sorceror salt is no doubt a prized commodity among the chefs and the foodies of the Three-Seas and gives their dishes an added zing). PPS regarding the Cishaurim's raid on the Scarlet Spires stronghold, it was my impression that Cishaurim sorcery had simply rendered them invisible to the SS wards - Iyokus, or someone, spoke of trained dogs patrolling the corridors alert to the Cishaurim's saffron scent. Transposing, at the moment, seems to be a virtuoso performance of Kellhus. view post

posted 16 Jan 2007, 00:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":17g6f36k]......................... Once again, I'll reiterate; the Mandate will most likely be among the foremost of Achamian's pursuers, based on the facts that Kellhus's new total servitude and honesty system is false as well as that the Mandate Quorum still think themselves Kellhus's master. Achamian [i:17g6f36k]is[/i:17g6f36k] alone focused [i:17g6f36k]solely[/i:17g6f36k] on defeating the Consult. Up until the end of TTT Achamian's only other concern in life was Esmenet. Following his renouncing Achamian's only other loyalty was towards Seswatha. You can write of any other character and they would have personal motives in what they've done and intend to do. Achamian is now the sole character, as was Seswatha, that has no purpose for life other than Consult defeat, as probably Cû'jara Cinmoi intended by the events that have shaped Achamian. ........................[/quote:17g6f36k] I am actually not so covinced as you are that Achamian is as pure in his motives in opposing the Consult - certainly he could have done a better job in opposing the Consult as Kellhus' vizier (whatever that is) despite his jealousy. Achamian at the end denounced both his school and Seswatha as criminals and murderers (and I think quite rightly). For mine he was trying to withdraw from the struggle against the Consult. As you point out, the Mandate will now probably be anxious to snuff out a renegade and Achamian will need Kellhus' forbearance to survive. view post

posted 17 Jan 2007, 04:01 in Philosophy DiscussionSorcery by anor277, Didact

[quote="avatar_of_existence":2zcwug6u].............The movie "What the Bleep do we Know?" gives examples of water molecules given different forms based on the words said to them over a period of days. The research was done by a Japanese scientist, and the results are astounding (to say the least). Words shape reality, there it is, evidence abundant. I would like to state at this time that the aforementioned movie I found to be boring and uninspired, the one mentioned scene being one of a few exceptions. Following this definition, who claims not to have witnessed the glory of Sorcery firsthand?!?![/quote:2zcwug6u] Just to revive an old thread, I did see the movie you mentioned just recently. While I thought it was going to be bad I didn't realize it was going to be that bad. In fact, it was a monumental pile of laughable drivel (you seem to agree with me for the most part). The research by a Japanese scientist was not research at all, and were there any foundation to his "theories" it would appear in a worthier medium than "What the Bleep do we know?" Suffice to say that this cannot be considered evidence that words shape reality. view post

posted 18 Jan 2007, 01:01 in Philosophy DiscussionSorcery by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2o676d2c]I was thinking about seeing the movie but I was a little deterred when I read reviews of it and looked up the "scientists" who took part in it. One of the so called experts on quantumn mechanics is a chiropractor, so its not really high on my to-do list though I will still watch it at some point.[/quote:2o676d2c] @WP, I don't think you'll be missing much if you don't see it. One of the authorities they cite is "Ramtha", a long dead Atlantean warrior spirit channelled by some Nth American housewife. I don't think I need further comment - perhaps the film has some entertainment value in the sense that any ludicrous farce is funny. view post

posted 18 Jan 2007, 02:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

[quote="Ulyaoth":9wevhqex]................... Could the Consult have made more "mistakes" such as Simas without informing the others? How else could Aurang have spies in a place presumably populated only by sorcery practicing Non-Men? The lack of the mark should be able to snuff out most spies in their presence...unless they actually did find a way to reproduce Skin Spies with souls or at least convincingly reproduce the mark of the Onta. No matter what information Moengus gleaned and shared with Maithanet, it's 10 years outdated if memory serves (that corresponds with the time he caught them.) I wonder if much has changed in that time...[/quote:9wevhqex] I certainly hope that the Consult has no more sorcerous skin-spies at its disposal. That would make all subsequent speculation pointless with regard to the actions of sorcerors. I don't think, however, we know for certain that all of the Non-Men are practising sorcerors; a skin spy could therefore infiltrate Ishterinbinth without bearing the mark. view post

posted 19 Jan 2007, 03:01 in Philosophy DiscussionSorcery by anor277, Didact

[quote="Randal":3jwwvq7c].............. Still, it did have quite some correct information alongside the pseudo-science. Which probably explains why so many people buy into it.[/quote:3jwwvq7c] One of my pet peeves of that movie was it repeated the claim that "no-one understands quantum mechanics". Now having spent long hard years trying to follow quantum chemistry I would support that claim - mind you, at a strictly mathematical level quantum mechanics is reasonably reasonably easy to follow - but then the movie proceeds to give an extremely facile and banal explanation of quantum mechanics - an explanation that is not in any degree scientific or illuminating. The movie conflates quantum mechanics with an interpretation of quantum mechanics that Schroedinger had always (rightly!) railed against. The film suggests that quantum mechanics proves that a conscious observer is necesary to create reality; therefore reality is created by that conscious observer. Of course quantum mechanics "proves" no such thing. Such a proof is unattainable because it can't be falsified (how do the conscious observers know that reality disappears when they are absent?). The paradox is obvious and therefore this intepretation cannot be scientific (good thing this is in the philosophy thread). view post

Re: Just finished a re-read... posted 29 Jan 2007, 23:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtJust finished a re-read... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Phil":3cqwnt7g]... 1. Chepharamunni was a skin-spy (we find this out at the end of tWP). Didn't Kellhus [i:3cqwnt7g]ever[/i:3cqwnt7g] meet Chepharamunni? I got the impression that Kellhus didn't meet Eleazarus until he was on the Circumfix, which kind of implies that he didn't meet Chepharamunni... but that's just a little unlikely, no? I mean, out of all those councils of the Greater and Lesser names, they never met? [/quote:3cqwnt7g] Kellhus met "Cheparamunni" at his first meeting with the then Nansur emperor (whose name I forget); the point was made, however, that the Ainoni potentate was masked in the Ainoni fashion. Therefore, Kellhus could not reasonably have divined that "Cheparamunni" was anything extraordinary; he did unmask Skauras(? - eta, that is the wrong individual, some other name), the Nansur vizier, at that same meeting. It was mentioned in WP that Kellhus had identified several skin spies in both high and low stations during the march to Shimeh. [quote:3cqwnt7g] 2. Why didn't the Ciphrang kill Achamian at the end of the TTT? I know Iyokus wanted it to take an eye for an eye, but it didn't actually take his eyes, did it? I mean, it didn't really do [i:3cqwnt7g]anything[/i:3cqwnt7g] permanent. I know it kicked his arse, but it didn't do much else.[/quote:3cqwnt7g] It might have been Iyokus' forbearance, i.e. the Ciphrang was under a guise simply to take an eye. Just rereading what you wrote (good idea!), from my reading of that encounter, the Ciphrang actually maimed Achamian by plucking out his eye. Maybe Achamian had inflicted sufficient damage on it to prevent it taking his remaining eye. [quote:3cqwnt7g] 3. Aurax and Aurang. Right... I appologise in advance if I've got them the wrong way round. For most of the series, we only see Aurang. At some point in TTT we know that Aurang's true body is in Golgotterath, surrounded by the Mangaecca, and the synthese is just a projection, or something like that. But Esmenet is raped by Aurang, no? And he has a very different body, a much more powerful one, so why didn't he use that body all the time? I'm sure there's another example of this later on, too. [/quote:3cqwnt7g] Aurang, I think, was the Inchoroi synthese, the birdman, whose soul or atman or whatever had apparently been bound to the bird form. From what Scott has said elsewhere, when Aurang was giving Esmenet a good seeing-to, his body was an illusion. [quote:3cqwnt7g] The other thing I wanted to ask, about Aurax, is... in the very end scene of tWP when we see one of them raping the northmen and their families, asking, "Who are the Dunyain?"... is this Aurax? Or is it still Aurang? Do we ever see Aurax? I kind of got the impression that since the one in that scene always referred to himself in the third person, and Aurang doesn't in any other scenes, it was probaly Aurax.[/quote:3cqwnt7g] That was my conclusion as well. The Inchoroi in question was Aurax, who had preserved (or at least maintained) his monstrous appearance by grafting successive parts onto his body. [i:3cqwnt7g] edited for an error[/i:3cqwnt7g] view post

posted 30 Jan 2007, 01:01 in Member Written Worksthe decapitating adventures of the merry chainswhore by anor277, Didact

Good story, just one question; if the chainswhore was such an incredible bitch, then why did she drink malt whisky with [i:300ggpr8]ice[/i:300ggpr8] in it? That is very nouveau riche. view post

posted 30 Jan 2007, 23:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtJust finished a re-read... by anor277, Didact

@Phil; yes, you are right, it was Skaeos whose identity Kellhus compromised at that first meeting. It is ironic that the Nansur were (for once) able to read Kellhus and then act to unmask this first skin-spy. Of course they drew completely the wrong conclusions: why should Kellhus recognize or react to a skin spy if he (K) were in league with the skin-spies? Yet this was precisely the conclusion the Nansur drew: i.e. skin-spies were creatures of the Cishaurim, therefore Kellhus was an agent of the Cishaurim (ironic again, that Kellhus [i:rc88mdgr]was[/i:rc88mdgr] actually in league with the Cishaurim, or at least a faction of the same). Anyway, regarding Aurang's illusory body there is are old threads somewhere around speculating on the incident, both here and in Scott's "ask the author" section. What is significant on rereading the passage in the novel is that Esmenet, after being shagged senseless, heard the "flap of wings" departing. The birdman Aurang, had somehow conjured an (illusory?) body, used it on the job, and then flew off in his actual form. view post

posted 31 Jan 2007, 23:01 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by anor277, Didact

[quote="Whiskeyjack":sbyo54ly]The hypnotizing theory is a good one, I hadn't even thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense. I completely forgot about the fact that Kellhus has communed with Seswatha directly. :? I'm not convinced that Kellhus will become the No-God, but I do think another clue to support your prediction could be seen the final battle with the Cishuarim. Kellhus himself becomes the vortex of a whirlwind to protect himself from the Chorae of the Fanim. A tactic learned from the No-God perhaps?[/quote:sbyo54ly] Did he commune with Seswatha, or with Achamian's subconscious (and removed whatever blocks Mandate conditioning had put there?)? Kellhus, the master of conditioning, surely knew what steps to take. From the glossary we know of only the one sorceror that transcended death, and it was Shauriatas not Seswatha. Seswatha took extraordinary steps that his mission would survive his death, but for mine it's wrong to refer to him as a living being. Like you, I am also not sold on the idea that Kellhus could become the No-God, even despite the vortex at Shimeh and Kellhus' brilliant baiting of Aurang, "the No-God, he speaks to me in my dreams, he says you abandoned him on the plains of Mengedda" (that is paraphrased). Kellhus, for all his lack of morality, is human, and he is learning to be more human. view post

Re: What about akka and esme. posted 01 Feb 2007, 22:02 in The Warrior ProphetWhat about akka and esme. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Purple Library Guy":2wjbch5m][quote="anor277":2wjbch5m]Well it seems that at least we're in agreement here. Esmenet and Kellhus say to Proyas of their relationship, that they thought somehow that Achamian would have approved. It does not sound like bull$hit. [/quote:2wjbch5m] Well of course it doesn't *sound* like bs. Nothing Kellhus says *sounds* like bs. That's because he's a super-genius whose talents at manipulation are beyond unreasonable. He is the man who can fake sincerity and therefore has it made. ...................................................................................................................................................................................................................... As to amor's point that had Kellhus not taken Esmenet as a lover she would be dead--come now. If he could manipulate her into bed, he could certainly manipulate her into just not running off looking for Achamian. I mean, Akka at that point is either alive or dead. If he's dead, going into danger and getting yourself killed too just makes things worse; Achamian surely wouldn't have wanted it. If he's alive, he's a Mandate scholar, capable of killing with a few words, shredding buildings; his potential for violence both overt and subtle is massive, for all that he rarely uses it. If alive he will no doubt be back; anything capable of stopping him would surely chew Esmenet up and spit her out. Sure, there's a certain amount of sophistry here, but I'm sure Kellhus would be able to convince her of some such line of reasoning.[/quote:2wjbch5m] @PLG, a long time to repond to an old thread but I know that you are new here and I haven't changed my mind since my original contribution. Before I start, consider how many of the other whores and camp followers survived until Shimeh? None but Kellhus’ remaining wife; this was not simply a question of Kellhus persuading her not to follow Achamian to guarantee her safety. Of course he has unknown motives; of course he seduced her; but that is how all men take lovers. And do you believe that had Achamian been really dead (and except for an improbable circumstance he would be) he would have begrudged Esmenet the comfort that Kellhus offered her? I am actually familiar with some of the sources you've quoted. Corwin, the evil who confronted other evils, wouldn’t have given a rat’s arse about seducing anyone. Donal Graeme (and it's long years since I read that) probably reproduced by giving off spores. I can understand why some of you are disappointed that Esmenet did not behave like the faithful Penelope. But on the other hand was Penelope's fidelity matched by Odysseus' philandering (and certainly Achamian is suspect in this respect)? Perhaps Penelope , young, beautiful, wealthy, should have lived for those 10 years in riotous adultery with all her suitors. Why should only the fantasy heroes get all the fun? Kellhus did repay Esemenet in emotional coin, of which I have pointed out earlier . And through all of this Achamian (improbably!) returns and behaves like an adolescent - he didn’t appreciate Esmenet until he lost her. That’s tough, but that’s human. Kellhus, as you point out, is amoral - he has no compunction in using other people - but so far he is not inherently evil, and his actions seem to be a bit more benevolent than his ostensible peers. Everyone of us as we grow up, have to learn ethics and morality; there have been signs that Kellhus is learning to be human. view post

posted 05 Feb 2007, 06:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by anor277, Didact

[quote="Alpha Crow":3u5s8t90] Two thoughts: 1) Didn't it say somewhere that the womb-plague was a virus or such? [/quote:3u5s8t90] As I recall the womb-plague was the Inchoroi engineered disease that killed off all the Non-Men females (Non-Women?). It predated the spate of still-births that occurred during the No-God's existence by 1000's of years [quote:3u5s8t90] 2) Achamian notices the halos on Kellhus' hands in passing at one point and I think he's already disillusioned with him. I think the halos are real for whatever reason.[/quote:3u5s8t90] And many here would agree with you. But the haloes seem to persist even if someone who does not believe in Kellhus is observing him. Why should they disappear? [quote:3u5s8t90] I'm still curious what exactly IS the thousandfold thought. And... what exactly happened to Kellhus' while he was circumfixed in the tree. Ripped out Serwe's heart? Came back and suddenly had haloed hands? I think a lot of the story hinges on that particular sequence, but it is purposefully left in the dark. Kell's only plan to get down actually was in motion, but it wasn't what got him down. Yet he had revelations while in the tree that changed his planning and apparently, human status. Did he just die on the cross and come back to the world? (so to speak)[/quote:3u5s8t90] What is the thousand-fold thought? I’m curious too, a gigantic con-trick, a mass acceptance of Kellhus' divinity? Both Moenghus and Kellhus realized they would never be able to sway the masses of the Three-Seas without appearing as a religious, messianic figure. The option was not really open to Moenghus (save through a proxy) but it was open to Kelllhus, and he even muses one time that he dare not tell them the truth. On the circumfix, Kellhus plans become actualized by belief - he becomes that divinity that the masses perceive him to be; this for mine was the thousand fold thought - the widespread recognition of Kellhus' divinity; intent and planning on Kellhus' part becomes sanctified by perfervid belief on the part of the Men of the Tusk. This belief is made even more sacred by the fact that the men of the Tusk had at one point rejected Kellhus and had done him near to death; a poignancy that Kellhus had undoubtedly intended. Of course, (as far as we know) it is a sham or a trick (Kellhus holding aloft the heart of his wife - as Eleazaras observed - was part of the trick because it was perceived that he had ripped out his own heart and not Serwe’s). But while on the circumfix Kellhus experienced visions and hallucinations, perhaps from the outside, perhaps from the No-God. Maybe this was brought on by his ordeal (he was very close to dying but then he’d been close to dying before) or maybe this was a higher state of consciousness; i.e. Kellhus has run through all the permutations and combinations and determined the status of gods, godlings, and No-Gods; maybe he has yet hidden plans to be revealed. The irony of Kellhus believing his own lies would be very funny. view post

posted 05 Feb 2007, 22:02 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":3vyqivhc]............................. For me, my mainly unanswered question of the Consult throughout the Prince of Nothing is this: Why did the Consult kill Ikurei Xerius III? .........................[/quote:3vyqivhc] I think I can least speculate on this one specific question; as to the others there are insufficient data. As far as we know, the secular and religious institutions of the Three-Seas were riddled with Consult skin-spies, and until the arrival of Moenghus and Kellhus, they had remained undetectable. The skin-spies were apparently able to tolerate some extraordinary individuals within these bodies, for instance Maithanet. Unlike Maithanet, Ikurei Xerius was not a supporter of the Holy War and thereby unfriendly to the immediate Consult aim of the destruction of the Cishaurim, whom they (the Consult) thought had developed some means of detecting their spies. Both Skaeos and the Dowager Empress (whose name I forget and who were probably imposters at the time) had expressed their misgivings with regard to the compact with the Fanim, and Ikurei's agreement to the Fanim's retention of Shimeh. On the other hand the Consult could have killed Ikurei Xerius earlier, but the immediate heir to the Nansur throne (Conphas) supported his uncle's policy and was even more friendly to the Fanim. The upshot of all this was that Ikurei Xerius was superfluous as far as the Consult were concerned and the Consult were probably looking for another house to assume the imperial mantle and vigourously prosecute the Holy War. Events moved too quickly, when Ikurei detected the imposture of one of the Skin Spies it then turned the emperor off - this skin spy was apparently maddened by a lust for both copulation and murder, it got a little bit carried away but that's the problem with these creatures. view post

posted 07 Feb 2007, 23:02 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":1lzxbq9b] Whereas most readers are assured that Kellhus is the father of Esmenet's child, I am not. I believe Esmenet and Achamian's reunion on the hilltop over Shimeh is not coincidence, nor the fact that Achamian only notices her childbearing bulge following his return to Shimeh at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. While it is likely that Kellhus is the father, I wholly believe Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote the above scenes with the intent of instilling doubt and providing more attune parallels to the First Apocalypse. .........[/quote:1lzxbq9b] Given the circumstances of Achamian's and Esmenet's parting and the start of her relationship with Kellhus, there can be little doubt of the paternity of her unborn child. Esmenet removed her contraceptive charm (useful item! it beats the pill and there's no side effects) only after the abduction of Achamian. Achamian had congress with Esmenet only after Esmenet knew was pregnant. Unless reproductive cycles function differently in the Three-Seas, Kellhus is clearly the father of Esmenet's child. view post

posted 07 Feb 2007, 23:02 in Author Q &amp; Aa follow on to prince of nothing? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Whiskeyjack":1yqgbsqi]I agree. The hunger of the No-God is an intriguing and surprising characteristic. I'm also curious as to what the Heron Spear is? It shoots rays of light, like a laser? And where is the carapace of the No-god now?[/quote:1yqgbsqi] The Heron spear certainly sounds like a gigawatt laser; after all the Inchoroi were a starfaring race. As to the carapace of the No-God, somewhere in the novels (the council after Kellhus was put on the tree?) Achamian mentions that the Consult were able to gather the No-God's "accursed" remains after Mengedda - quite possibly these remains included the carapace. view post

posted 08 Feb 2007, 00:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by anor277, Didact

[quote="Alpha Crow":mrq6jnmu]......................... That being said, it seems odd that he planned and did rip out Serwe's heart just for such purposes. I'm sure everyone is as thirsty for the real answer. I would say it was physically impossible for him to do so with his bare hands, but he apparently has done similar while fighting. ...................[/quote:mrq6jnmu] Just on this point there was no need for him to rip out the heart from Serwe's corpse with his bare hands. Serwe had already been mutilated by the faithful; how badly we don't know though if Sarcellus did it, he was proabaly very thorough. view post

Re: Achamian and the Ciphrang posted 13 Feb 2007, 00:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAchamian and the Ciphrang by anor277, Didact

[quote="Sardaukar":22lrfgy5]I'm a bit confused about what happened between Achamian being carried by the Ciphrang and him waking up under the care of the Shimeh woman and her husband. He is delirious in the clutches of the demon, has a dream where the No-God calls him by name, then wakes up back on solid ground. There is reference to the Ciphrang bleeding naphtha and spiralling downward...Did it come under AA fire from Weepers and drop him? Not clear.[/quote:22lrfgy5] As far as I know both the demon and Achamian had suffered some damage at the other's hands. Achamian apparently inflicted enough damage on the demon to drive it off (not before it maimed him). We can attach any significance to Achamian's dreams after he fell unconscious but we can save that for another time. view post

Re: Nonmen Erratics posted 13 Feb 2007, 00:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen Erratics by anor277, Didact

[quote="Sardaukar":2lnv9ef0]I must have missed the explanation of Erratics...Through context on these boards I gather some Nonmen lost their capacity to remember for some reason...Can anybody tell me where to read about this?[/quote:2lnv9ef0] You'll have to look in old "Author Q and A" threads" but don't do it if you would prefer not to read spoilers. This peculiarity of the Non-men is not revealed in the novels (save perhaps for the Non-Man Kellhus encounters in the prologue). view post

posted 14 Feb 2007, 01:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtHeresiarch of the Cishaurim by anor277, Didact

[quote="RazorSmile":omo52588][quote:omo52588]To continue the biblical parallel, in 20 years time Kellhus would have probably sired more bastards than Methuselah. Anyway, Moenghus is almost certainly not Kellhus' natural son, but Cnaiur's. All Kellhus future offspring (and Moenghus), however many they are, will probably be extensions of Kellhus' will - Kellhus is still the seeing man in the kingdom of the blind.[/quote:omo52588] I don't know if this counts as thread necromancy (after all, the trilogy won't be continuing for a while) but you might have gotten some names mixed up there. I'm pretty sure Moenghus isn't Cnaiur's son - or Kellhus' for that matter.[/quote:omo52588] Do you mean Moenghus (the child that Serwe bore, whose father was almost certainly Cnaiur but whose paternity she attributed to Kellhus) or Moenghus, Kellhus' father? As you know one's dead (arguably) and the other is a baby. view post

posted 14 Feb 2007, 23:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by anor277, Didact

[quote="RazorSmile":109qfohc]Reading this thread, a theory occurs: 1) We know the Thousandfold Thought is some kind of unifying supermeme that can supercede all the cultural differences and religons to make all humans act as one nation - most likely under Kellhus, the Aspect-Emperor. 2) We also know what Kellhus told Akka, about how our souls are all nodes in the body/mind of the God, all souled beings are part of the God and the God is made of them. And vice versa. 3) Ergo, his ultimate plan is to put these two facts together. By causing all men - and all [i:109qfohc]Souls[/i:109qfohc] - to act in perfect synch, he hopes to create/assemble the God, perhaps under his command, perhaps to merge with him directly and thus be able to fight the No-God. No Heron Spear required. This holds together whether he's lying to Akka or whether his beliefs are wrong. Thoughts?[/quote:109qfohc] This is a good post and touches on the question of what precisely are Kellhus’ motivations and his plans. But does Kellhus need all souls to act in perfect synchronization or just all bodies? I am reminded of Asimov’s classic sci-fi novels, the Foundation series, in which a mathematical psychology was found to be able to model and predict human behaviour, and a society based on such psychology was planned. In the last novels of the series, the protagonists try to find an underlying basis for the laws of psychohistory, in analogy with the last of four laws of thermodynamics, the zeroth law. The zeroth law of psychohistory was the assumption that humanity was the only functional intelligence in the galaxy; an assumption that while axiomatic was not of course necessarily true. In the Three-Seas, the Dunyain, for all their physical and intellectual achievements, still labour under that zeroth law; they assume that there is no intelligence or knowledge in the world that can threaten them or compete with their own knowledge. Kellhus and Moenghus (elder!), both Dunyain renegades (arguably), do not now share that assumption, and (as in the Foundation novels) possibly they see that the only hope for humanity against a renascent Consult is a united humanity. To unite humanity, their only recourse was to feed their fellows religion. We will have to wait and see what Kellhus makes of such a united humanity. view post

posted 15 Feb 2007, 00:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":thvz49eb] If I recall correctly other people in the books have "ascended" so to speak such as in the scene of the Harbringer prophecy being spoken, he says I see my son riding or something as such stirring our people to fury. So I would say that "ascension" to a point is possible and that the touching of the heart possibly could bind all Schoomen to the Outside Agency that was formerly Seswatha. However I could see equally as well that the touching of the heart takes a part of Seswatha into the Schoomen. You must remember that nearly everyone goes into the Outside its what happens once they get there that matters whether they are tortured by demons, or cycled back into the world, or simply stay there.[/quote:thvz49eb] As far as I know the only individual in [i:thvz49eb]Prince of Nothing[/i:thvz49eb] who could reasonably fit the "ascension" requirement is Shauriatas, an undead sorceror, who according to Achamian is still hanging around like a bad smell. Perhaps we should avoid such terms as [i:thvz49eb]ascendant[/i:thvz49eb], I really still don't know what one is though I think Shauriatas fits the description. view post

posted 16 Feb 2007, 00:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtChorae, Consults and Salts. (Or &quot;A Boy and His Bird) by anor277, Didact

[quote="RazorSmile":2e3oojoq]Argh, the Aporos of course! Well, that shuts down about half of my thinkwank session rather handily. The questions that still remain are a) whether the salt is special or just your standard issue NaCl AND b) whether the victims are Outside, dead, bound to the salt or locked in the Chorae.[/quote:2e3oojoq] Must be standard natrium chloride. If they were lithium salts, they'd use it to treat Cnaiur; and magnesium salts would have them all running to the toilet. As to the fate of those sorcerors struck down by chorae, there have been some good suggestions, but who am I to speculate? view post

posted 25 Feb 2007, 23:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by anor277, Didact

Someone has to start posting again, so here's 2 cents for this thread.[quote="Alpha Crow":33bz8ddt].......................... Also, I don't think the dunyain were anything but some group of monks when they found the citadel in the north. Iirc the consult makes some comment to that effect, something like "THAT group of whacked out nutjobs?!" (ok, heavily paraphrasing :D ), when he learns who/what the dunyain are. [/quote:33bz8ddt] I am not so sure that [i:33bz8ddt]at present[/i:33bz8ddt] the Consult have any knowledge whatsoever of the Dunyain. Ishual was chosen by a poweful dynasty as a secret mountain fastness, and the ones who shared the secret all died precipitately. In a time of great upheaval the original Dunyain blundered into the retreat, and subsequently they took steps to keep the secret. Whether they'll be able to preserve their secrecy with the Consult, with their vast resources of minions and intelligence gatherers, actively looking for them is debatable. Many on this board look towards a Dunyain/Consult alliance that will eventually face the Aspect-Emperor. [quote:33bz8ddt] That and the original comment about "why should you fear us?". I think they were just an idealist group. Kind of a pacifist group then, perhaps. Now... um... only the quickest of their children are allowed to live, apparently. [/quote:33bz8ddt] Agreed that the Dunyain of the apocalypse were very different from the Dunyain of the modern Three-Seas; of course they have had some 2000 years of research and selective breeding to shape themselves. I think it's reasonably certain that the Dunyain cull those they deem to be intellectually inadequate. Witness Kellhus reciting [i:33bz8ddt]The darkness that comes............[/i:33bz8ddt] etc. At the end of this ordeal Kellhus struck a knife from the hand of the Pragma, who oversaw his testing. Had Kellhus not been able to insert his will into that instant of probability, had he not came before (however you describe it), the Pragma would have killed him, as he would have killed any pupil who had failed to grasp the basic Dunyain principle. view post

posted 02 Mar 2007, 04:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":3s9juhpl]Really, I can't imagine why people think the dunyain will throw in with the consult - it seems largely based upon Kellhus' comment to Moe that he would eventually, being damned as they are. [/quote:3s9juhpl] It's also based on the knowledge that the Consult is actively seeking the Dunyain; with their enormous resources of manpower it's very probable that they will find them. What happens then if the Consult find the Dunyain? It's hard to believe that the Dunyain will remain in a subservient position for long. [quote:3s9juhpl]And it seems to me that Kellhus is quite convinced of his divinity (glowing hands anyone?), and this would be his reason for opposing the consult. They have their no-god and the aim of closing off the world be killing of all souled beings, he seems to see himself as a divine saviour (maybe not tho, we have little insight into his true goals). I doubt that the dunyain would agree that he is the product they seek to create, and would probably try to destroy him if he interferes with them, probably reaching the same conclusions that he did regarding Moe. [/quote:3s9juhpl] While you are entitled to your own opinion, I would take the opposite view here; Kellhus knows the truth though he must conceal it to get the rest of the Three-Seas onboard. Of course, anything is possible in a book that we haven't read. view post

posted 05 Mar 2007, 23:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by anor277, Didact

Why should anyone feel that Achamian, alone of the Mandate, is specially linked to Seswatha? The one time we get a glimpse of Seswatha's relationship to another Mandate member (whose name I forget at the moment but he was Achamian’s bete noir on the quorum) he, the quorum member, was undergoing torment on the wall at Dagliash, apparently a favorite motif in Seswatha’s dreamscapes. I cannot therefore agree with the widespread opinion that Achamian’s relationship to the Mandate founder (whom Achamian has already denounced) as anything special. Anyway, Esmenet has already stated that Seswatha’s position in the Sagas is ambiguous, a scheming manipulator in the one source and the saviour of humanity in the next. And should Seswatha magically appear in the modern Three-Seas, he would no doubt laud Kellhus’ abilities and decisiveness, and chide Achamian for his weakness in leaving Kellhus’ side. From what little we know of Seswatha’s persona, he was a super pragmatic bastard who would not scruple to lie or deceive or sacrifice his friends. He manipulated Nau-Cayuti (possibly Seswatha’s only son) into a mad raid on Golgotterath and after the success of the raid (for Seswatha but not for his protégé) he (Seswatha) failed to protect him. Again, Seswatha did what he had to do but I cannot see a more or less moral person, i.e. Achamian, repeating the actions of his predecessor. view post

posted 08 Mar 2007, 01:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Holsety":1mvx48o4] [quote="anor277":1mvx48o4]Why should anyone feel that Achamian, alone of the Mandate, is specially linked to Seswatha?[/quote:1mvx48o4]He is actually referred to as Seswatha directly during his escape. I believe one of the quotes is "Seswatha was free" or something like that.[/quote:1mvx48o4] That line to me was more of a metaphor; a Mandati wreaking a terrible vengeance. You've failed to point out why Achamian, [i:1mvx48o4]alone of the Mandate[/i:1mvx48o4], is especially linked to Seswatha. Sure, there may be parallels between he and Seswatha, but this is a different thing entirely to saying that Seswatha lives on in Achamian [quote:1mvx48o4][quote:1mvx48o4]Anyway, Esmenet has already stated that Seswatha’s position in the Sagas is ambiguous, a scheming manipulator in the one source and the saviour of humanity in the next.[/quote:1mvx48o4] Yes; and, specifically, a savior in the last. Moreover, as the Sagas are the view of a people as a whole, rather than an actual account of who the person actually is, Akka is already playing the role of a coward and a traitor openly by leaving Kellhus' court. The Sagas do not necessarily display that Seswatha was particularly inconstant; ...................................................[quote:1mvx48o4]Hated or adored, Seswatha was the pin in the navigator's bowl, the true hero of [i:1mvx48o4]The Sagas[/i:1mvx48o4], though not one cycle or chronicle acknowledged him as such. And each time Esmenet encountered some variant of his name, she would clutch her breast and think, [i:1mvx48o4]Achaiman[/i:1mvx48o4][/quote:1mvx48o4][/quote:1mvx48o4] And Achamian has specifically denounced Seswatha as a criminal and murderer along with the rest of his school, which Seswatha founded [quote:1mvx48o4] [quote:1mvx48o4]He manipulated Nau-Cayuti (possibly Seswatha’s only son) into a mad raid on Golgotterath and after the success of the raid (for Seswatha but not for his protégé) he (Seswatha) failed to protect him. Again, Seswatha did what he had to do but I cannot see a more or less moral person, i.e. Achamian, repeating the actions of his predecessor.[/quote:1mvx48o4] Seswatha didn't do what he had to do lightly; the desperation as he shouts at 'Nau's expression as much as his words' (rough quoting) makes it clear that he didn't want to lie to Nau. Also, Nau's death is attributed to poision, not the raid. The fact that the glossary says 'apparently' implies uncertainty, but that's a far cry from any basis that Seswatha caused Nau-Cauyuti's death.[/quote:1mvx48o4] I didn't say that Seswatha engineered the death of Nau-Cauyuti, I said he failed to protect him. That is Seswatha got what he wanted from the raid, the Heron Spear, but he left his tools dangling, including that individual who didn’t get what he wanted from the raid. This is a common failing in heroes who achieve their purposes, their one time followers are left to clear up the shit they leave behind. [quote:1mvx48o4] Other than lying to Nau, I know of no lies or manipulations from Seswatha. Moreover, the circumstances lead one to think he was willing to make sacrifices for a perceived to be a greater calling - would one call Abraham "pragmatic" since he was willing to kill Isaac?[/quote:1mvx48o4] I would call Isaac a pitiful, deluded fool provided that he was not testing God and was actually going to kill his son. As to the lies told by Seswatha, there is one other lie by ommission: the concealment of the Heron Spear. Of course Seswatha had excellent reasons to conceal it, but maybe, Nau-Cauyuti (while he lived) and his “mead brothers” could have used the Heron Spear to defend their homeland; maybe they [i:1mvx48o4]should[/i:1mvx48o4] have had that option open to them. (I don’t know that they didn’t of course). Seswatha, in the context of the Three-Seas, no doubt did great things. Like the authors of other great things he no doubt committed many crimes. [quote:1mvx48o4] And besides, Achaiman has done the same thing. Remember Inrau? Akka chose his mission as a mandate sorcerer over his pupil. If Seswatha did fail to protect Nau, it would only create another link between Akka and Seswatha.[/quote:1mvx48o4] The signal difference between Seswatha and Nau-Cauyuti on the hand and Achamian and Inrau on the other, is that Achamian was ordered to use Inrau as a tool and later Achamian repudiated the organization that issued the order. Seswatha, for all we know, decided himself to use N-C as a tool, and he took steps to manipulate him into so doing. That he failed to protect N-C afterwards counts against him in my book. Achamian persuaded Inrau to help him without deceiving him, in the knowledge that had he not recruited Inrau another less scrupulous Mandate member would replace him. [quote:1mvx48o4][quote="Curethan":1mvx48o4]*Agrees with Anor* The crux of Seswatha falling out with Celomas was an affair with his wife, I believe - thus the possibility that Nau is his (Seswatha's) son. You could draw as many, if not more, parrallels between Kellhus and Seswatha if you were so inclined (manipulator, sorcerous prodigy etc).[/quote:1mvx48o4] So, isn't that falling out yet again a parallel, with Akka and Kell conflicting over Esmi? Especially since Cel keeps his wife (presumably) and his son, and Kellhus keeps Esmi (some other post on here gave evidence that Esmi's son ain't Akka's, so forget that).[/quote:1mvx48o4] Yes it's a parallel. Mind you was N-C’s mother a concubine or an actual wife? I could be thinking of the woman for whom N-C risked Golgotterath, who was definitely not his wife. [quote:1mvx48o4] As far as Kellhus and Seswatha...again, see the above thing; there's very little reason to think Seswatha's manipulation is comparable to Kellhus' - manipulation is an instinct for the warrior-prophet, while Seswatha struggles over the betrayal of one person, no matter how dear. And, again, one can compare Sessa's use of Nau to Akka's use of Inrau. And as I pointed out already, the one most pointed to as a cold genius is Celo, a "flint-hearted genius". Meanwhile, the respective roles of Akka and Kellhus link them to Sessa and Cel; Akka is a tutor and sorcerer while Kellhus is a military leader. Akka's sorcery is central to his characte; right now, I don't think the same can be said for Kellhus, except for his understanding of inutterals. And the Gnosis is Mandate, and an ancient sorcery, not a creation of Sessa, while the Dreams - which Kellhus does not have - are the firmest ties to Seswatha. [/quote:1mvx48o4]And yet Achamian himself said something along the lines of “what would Kellhus make of the Gnosis?”. The answer is something manifestly more than the current Mandate. In 20 years time, Kellhus’ sorcerous ability will probably not only surpass Achamian’s and Nautzera’s but even Seswatha’s; and there’s a probability he will transmit that knowledge to his own school of sorcerors, acolytes that will be bound more closely to him than say Achamian to Seswatha. Besides we don’t know enough about the development of sorcery. Would a member of the ancient Gnostic schools be the sorcerous match of a modern Mandati? Probably, sorcery seems to be a reasonably dead endeavour; that is effective research is probably not being performed. That the Anagogic schools still lag behind those who employ the Gnosis, (a sorcery that was developed in the distant past) seems to be an indication of the sterile nature of enquiry into the sorcerous arts. [quote:1mvx48o4] +In addition, both are captured after a battle; the fall of Tryse results in Sessa's capture, while Akka is captured fighting in the library. Sessa is tortured to find out where the heron spear is. Akka is tortured about the Gnosis and about Kellhus. Neither spill the beans.[/quote:1mvx48o4] Achamian’s ability to withstand torture was Seswatha’s legacy so that’s not really a fair comparison. Later, Achamian does spill his guts about Kellhus’ whereabouts to Cnaiur and the skin spies. [quote:1mvx48o4]Finally, both are thought of as heroes for this; even Nautezera lauds Akka's battle and then escape with the Spires, while the Sagas describe Sessa heroically (this one is the 4th, which I didn't deign to notice, if you look at my list above). [quote="TTT Pg 8":1mvx48o4]Yes! You did well, Achamian - well enough to be written! Immortalized in our annals! But what's this about lies?[/quote:1mvx48o4] (By the way i just realized i didn't know how to spell Akka's full name XD ) [quote="TTT Pg 172":1mvx48o4]In "The Trisiad", the verse account of Tryse's destruction, [Sessa] was a shining beacon on the parapets, clawing dragons from the sky with sorcerous light[/quote:1mvx48o4] After Tryse's fall is when Sessa is captured by the consult btw. -Akka is called Sessa in the warrior prophet's narration during his escape (I have no page number). -Both conflict with an anasurimbor over a woman. -Both have shifting roles, and thus people perceive them in shifting ways over time. -Both "see the truth". Even if you argue that Akka is stupid/confused when he leaves Kellhus, there is still the passage in TTT where Kellhus displays truth (himself) to Akka. -Sessa flees, Akka leaves Kellhus' court. Both are seen as treachery. Whether either was treachery remains to be seen. I feel there may be more, but I'm leaving things like that. Oh, and Aspect Emperor is 20 years after the series, not 30. I've always placed Akka as late 30s to mid 40s max, he's middle aged in a nonmodern society. Even 50 would be pretty a few centuries back. I admit, I don't think it's likely, in consideration of that, that he'll actually be the hero of the series, but I continue to maintain that he's pretty much the new Seswatha, and his side is likely going to be "the good side".[/quote:1mvx48o4] In closing, yes you’re right that there are certain parallels between the careers of Achamian and Seswatha; a case for a special connection beyond that between Seswatha and any modern Mandate member has yet to be made. It is in addition a good point you make regarding Achamian’s probable age in the Aspect Emperor; he will then be a geezer, but as a sorceror (still?) that’s not too much of a handicap. PS @Madness, good thing you’re busy if you’re itching to take apart my arguments. Achamian may have referred to Seswatha as a brother, a brother who impassively watched the torture to madness and terrible maiming of Achamian’s dearest friend. I have not got TTT on me at them moment, but when Achamian breakes with Kellhus, what does he say? He denounces his school as criminals and murderers, and I think there is reason to agree with him. Are you saying that Achamian is excluding the Mandate founder in that accusation? Why? view post

posted 08 Mar 2007, 23:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":35jzb3us]Nah worries, anor. Except for minor points, which we drastically differ on, I've no intention of rending your arguments upon my return. Some others, however, won't be so lucky. Since I have a couple moments once again today before I return to work, and since I've taken a break from apartment hunting, I thought I'd just quickly respond to your postscript. ...................................................................................................................................................................................................................... As to your question, I do believe that Achamian renounces his School and the Quorum but not it's founder. Once again, as Cu'jara Cinmoi makes quite clear in The Darkness That Comes Before, the Quorums following Seswatha have twisted and skewed the Mandate's goal.[/quote:35jzb3us] @Madness, I am glad we can disagree amicably - now if this was a politics forum we’d now be having our seconds wait upon each other. Anyway, I find it hard to divorce Seswatha from the Mandate, and from Achamian’s denunciation of the latter. The school was his instrument and he went to extraordinary lengths (apparently) so that it remained true to its original mission. And I feel the Mandate [i:35jzb3us]has[/i:35jzb3us] remained faithful to that mission; it has always looked towards the re-emergence of the Consult, to the point of being a laughing stock in the Modern Three-Seas. The personal ambitions and feuds and infighting that seem to mark the other schools (bar the Cishaurim) do seem to be largely absent from the Mandate. Even Achamian said as much; when you dream the same series dreams every night and witness the same terrible scenes, personal ambitions tend to pale in comparison. The modern school engages in kidnapping, espionage, murder, and must forcefully appropriate all of its resources from a subject population. And this was the institution that Seswatha founded. Of course, in this respect, it is no different from the other schools who must engage in the same thing, but if you damn the Mandate (and they are reasonably damnable) I feel you also point the finger of blame towards the Mandate founder. view post

posted 15 Mar 2007, 22:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":99cnyq4b]Curethan I am outraged that you would compare Bakker to Eddings. On March 16th the one year from Bakker's last post here I will burn you as a heretic. As I have always said heretics are so flammable. Madness you maybe right Akka may not be the only one to mirror Seswatha. I believe Seswatha's intent was to have many that mirrored him. The reason being to have a force that would be able to combat the Consult toe to toe.[/quote:99cnyq4b] Agreed on that outrageous Bakker/eddings comparison. I wouldn't read Eddings to my 5-year old. Begs the question as to why I've read that stuff. The Edddings comparison is a bit more poisonous here because most of Eddings novels were the one theme, the one story going on and on and on again like a broken vinyl record age after aeon - and eddings himslef acknowledged that. Given Scott's record, I don't think any historical parallels between the Apocalypse and events the Modern Three-Seas will be so heavy-handed. Just regarding the Heron-Spear, I will be a bit unhappy if it makes a reappearance; even in Bakker's hands it would too much of a fantasy cliche (I am often mistaken of course). As we know the Scylvendi took the Heron Spear in the sack of Cenei (1500-1000 years ago). As was remarked it is even possible that it's now in the Consult's hands. Besides it is a high technology device - if it sits for a year it will deteriorate; if it is sits for 2000 years it will be a useless crystal pile. view post

posted 22 Mar 2007, 22:03 in Author Q &amp; AInchoroi motivations and the quantum mechanics by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jamara":2d3b7x01]Very interesting! Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle: We can know where an electron is but not it's speed, and we can know an electron's speed but not it's location. Thus with sorcery you have the Utteral string (speed), and the Inutteral string (location); you know both, which can only be known by "God". And when you can tie both strands together, you can control the quantum reality of somethig/everything, i.e. you can rewrite God's work. Definitely. I agree that sorcery could conceivably be a manipulation of quantum mechanics, but I also think there is a fantasy aspect Bakker has placed in there just to keep us from quantifying everything. Don't forget about the Daemos. Those demons that are summoned have to come from somewhere.[/quote:2d3b7x01] I think that's a fairly wrong analogy. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is a consequence of Heisenberg's or Schroedinger's mathematical description (in Schroedinger's case this was a simple wave function) as opposed to a postulate (for instance that the square of the wave function represents the probability of finding the particle at a particular place). God has no privileged position of observation if the universe She created was created logically and therefore even She must obey the quantum description - i.e. she can't know both simultaneously. In the fantasy world, the sorceror indubitably knew both the uttered and the unuttered string; there is no indeterminacy; both are separable from the sorceror's unique and privileged position of observation. Quantum mechanics is good for describing the behaviour of fundamental particles but I think it falls down in providing rational descriptions or parallels of fantastic behaviour in a fantasy world. view post

posted 25 Mar 2007, 23:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAre there female skin spies? by anor277, Didact

We've been over the question of skin-spy plumbing several times. It is a fact that skin spies may impersonate both male and female humans; it is also likely that the skin spies are cloned out of bottles rather than bred by biological parents. Given what we know about skin spy behaviour (they'll shag anything that moves) a reasonable conclusion is that they are hermaphrodites, possessing both male and female organs. The question of gender is therefore probably a superfluous one. view post

posted 27 Mar 2007, 06:03 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]&quot;Murderous Children&quot; by anor277, Didact

Just regarding the "murderous children" snippet, Esmenet is "stepmother" to at least Moenghus (who arguably has no biological connection to Kellhus); she might be stepmother to several more of Kellhus children. In the intervening period Esmenet may have tolerated extended liasions between Kellhus and (suitably intelligent) world-born women. Of course Kellhus (unlike Achamian) may have been faithful in all that time. view post

posted 27 Mar 2007, 23:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions that haunt me after just reading TTT. by anor277, Didact

[quote="wmdragon":3p8vdzoz]I also found the showdown between Cnauir and Moenghus confusing and unsatisfying. why would Moenghus risk getting killed by Cnauir by getting close to him? what did he need from Cnauir?[/quote:3p8vdzoz] Just on this point, Moenghus "allows" Cnaiur's approach probably because Kellhus had already wounded Moenghus mortally. Kellhus, whose mistakes are carfeuuly learned from, undoubtedly would not leave such a dangerous opponent viable. Moenghus, in his death throes, reaches out to Cnaiur, who may possibly have been able to save him, but who also bore Moenghus a long standing grudge. Moenghus may have been able to deal with Cnaiur physically, even in his reduced condition; he ran the risk of mad, bad Cnaiur using the chorae. view post

posted 28 Mar 2007, 23:03 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

I didn't vote because my option "6#. That the devil created us all at 2:37 am this morning with our memories intact" was not present. Of all your options, which is the only one that is testable, is falsifiable; it's also the one with all the evidence supporting it. At any rate "random evolution" is quite properly a misnomer; evolution, the change in the frequency of alleles within populations over time, is demonstrably not random, it is governed by natural selection. view post

posted 29 Mar 2007, 00:03 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

@WP, you're ever the diplomat. Looking back, option 6# probably falls under "other", your original 5th choice. view post

posted 29 Mar 2007, 00:03 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

[quote="Randal":2gzlnds3]................................ Anyway, I think I can state my view simpler; In the past few billion years, an incredibly large amount of lifeforms have existed. Currently, only a percentage of those remain. The others are extinct, either because of changing circumstances or because of better adapted species that displaced them. Those species can be said to have failed at surviving, at procreating.[/quote:2gzlnds3] I don't have any idea of how much biomass all current bacteria represents. Arguably a bacterium, reproducing by division, has [i:2gzlnds3]never[/i:2gzlnds3] died, though it has undoubtedly changed form under evolutionary pressure. I am not so sure that we can speak of a trend towards more advanced, or even more complicated, species when the majority of life is necessarily present as unicellular organisms. (Just on this point I remember an old joke from 1st year biology, when we were asked "what are the benefits to having a complete digestive tract, i.e. mouth and anus?" The answer, so that you can two fixations.) view post

posted 30 Mar 2007, 00:03 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

[quote="Sokar":2bi29j7f]I'll be rather frank on this my knowledge on the subject is rather limited... But none of the options seems to have an answer and they are all as narrow-minded as the other. To claim that one is defenately the reason for our being simply doesn't hold. Let me elaborate: [/quote:2bi29j7f] I'll take advantage of your [i:2bi29j7f]carte blanche[/i:2bi29j7f] to criticize, all in the nature of free, amiable discussion (and I'm probably preaching to the converted). All of the choices, as you say, are equally valid but they are not equally probable. God could have created the world; the Devil could have created us with our memories intact early yesterday morning; likewise the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and at least His epistemology copes with the tremendous scientific evidence of an old universe (i.e. FSM faked it all). But this is purely a whimsical choice. A broader scientific investigation would look to evidence that supports each choice, and of the choices enumerated there is only the one that is tenable. Evolution (i) is falsifiable (one can easily think of observations and experiments that would falsify evolution), (ii) it is a logically sound theory, effect follows cause, and (iii) all of the evidence, in its totality, points to descent with modification. And, on this basis, if it is narrow-minded to accept evolution as a fact (given no evidence whatsoever of the contrary) then I must be narrow-minded. [quote:2bi29j7f] Most of the choices given are mere choices that come from a certain understanding. The religious upbringing will probably give you a more credible stance towards a religious choice, while little religious upbringing will make you more fond of the something scientific (or lunatic). I truly think we are merely [i:2bi29j7f] choosing [/i:2bi29j7f] which one suits us most and does not contradict our life so far. So although my choice would lie in the last (the devil...), it is merely so because I have no religious reference in my life (neither a lunatic stance towards a second similar option of intelligent design - they are the same!). [/quote:2bi29j7f] And again, a certain understanding might be more sophisticated than another understanding. A clergyman who is also an accomplished scientist (and I saw a lecture by one last week) certainly has a more sophisticated understanding than a biblical literalist. Perhaps here I am trying to paint you into a corner by asking the reasons that inform your choice; they might be valid (i.e. you might have been raised by fundamentalist Xtians but they might also be wrong). [quote:2bi29j7f] I want to elaborate a little more on choices - as they are made out of pure necessity for explanation. Why this necessity exists is another topic, but this is the reason why we wonder which one would be correct, a certain search for truth. But I think we all agree that truth is disguised in its forms and blurred even more by our human look on things. The discourse of truth is human, it is confined to certain merits and is always present within this same network. For this reason we usually escape the understanding of things and their truths. We make choices of what to believe in other words. I am not saying that [i:2bi29j7f] choosing [/i:2bi29j7f] is wrong and narrow-minded though..........................[/quote:2bi29j7f] We seem to agree on the necessity for explanation. If so, then surely it must be a good explanation; again only one of the choices can fulfill that criterion. - it might be wrong but it's the best one we've got if the universe is rational. Of course there gaps in the theory, multiple controversies about mechanism, and it does not account for abiogenesis, but in the main the eivdence compels one to accept evolution. This is why so many beleive that when Darwin published his [i:2bi29j7f]Origin of Species[/i:2bi29j7f] he rendered whole generation of philosophers obsolete. view post

posted 30 Mar 2007, 01:03 in Off-Topic DiscussionScott Bakker ruined it for me. by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":ixq1svvv]Just a comment on what Whiskeyjack wrote above. It's funny that you mention that, Bakker crediting Erikson. Erikson himself actually credits Glen Cook, author of the [i:ixq1svvv]Black Company[/i:ixq1svvv] novels, with the reinvention of the fantasy genre. "The thing about Glen Cook is that with [i:ixq1svvv]The Black Company[/i:ixq1svvv] he single-handedly changed the face of fantasy - something a lot of people didn't notice and maybe still don't. He brought the story down to a human level, dispensing with the cliché archetypes of princes, kings, and evil sorcerers. Reading his stuff was like reading Vietnam War fiction on peyote." - Steve Erikson, author of [i:ixq1svvv]Gardens of the Moon[/i:ixq1svvv][/quote:ixq1svvv] Am I the only person who is distinctly unimpressed by [i:ixq1svvv]The Black Company[/i:ixq1svvv] series? I read some of the novels on the strenght of Erikson's recommendation. I don't think Glen Cook even approaches Erikson as a writer and story-teller, and has none of the latter's invention. Mind you, lately I have been getting a little tired of Erikson. view post

posted 30 Mar 2007, 02:03 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jamara":288bg8f3]...................................... Which brings us back to Kellhus. Moenghus might have comprehended the Outside, but could not manipulate it due to becoming Cishaurim. He was left impotent with his knowledge. But Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis, the Abstract, as well as begun comprehending the nature of the Outside. Could he be mad with power by the start of the Aspect Emperor?[/quote:288bg8f3] He could be, but I tend to doubt it. Thoughout the first three novels Kellhus was just too penetrating, too astute to fail in his own self-evaluation. At the start of [i:288bg8f3]The Great Ordeal[/i:288bg8f3] he will be a towering figure, the heir of both Seswatha and Inrithi Sejenus and of course of Celmomas as neither S. nor I. S. held temporal power - and Kellhus would easily be greater than any of those predecessors. This is one of the reasons why I'm forced to like Madness(?) suggestion that early on the new series, Kellhus will fall victim to some little mischance or unforeseen circumstance and that the struggle against the Consult will be continued by lesser mortals. view post

posted 30 Mar 2007, 06:03 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

[quote="Trutu Angotma":1kv4ugr4]................ evolution is unaceeptable to me to beleive that a thousand thousand near-impossible chances in chemicals and substances created life without some help...............[/quote:1kv4ugr4] You are certainly entitled to your opinion. May I address one error in your contribution. Evolution has nothing to say on the [i:1kv4ugr4]1000-1000 near impossible changes.........[/i:1kv4ugr4]; that is the province of [i:1kv4ugr4]abiogenesis[/i:1kv4ugr4], a field that is understandably not very well developed. Arguments on the implausibility of life from lifeless molecules (and it is hard to quantify how likely or unlikely this process actually is) do not detract from the plausibility of evolution. view post

posted 02 Apr 2007, 00:04 in Philosophy DiscussionThe Meaning of Life by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jamara":2xesqfgv] .............................. First off, the all of humanity is not civilizaiton. You completely disregard aboriginal peoples. Tribes within the south american rainforests, african tribes deep in the congo, nomadic tribes of the sahara, true natives of australia, and hopefully many others which I have never even heard of. Do you not count them as people? Do you look at these humans as something less than humans? It is our civilization, our totalitarian agriculturlist culture which has the superiority complex. It is our culture and not the culture of tribalists which threatens to unbalance the ecosystems around ourselves and rain a nuclear holocaust from the skies. Tribal peoples outside of civilization face absolutely none of the ecosystem imbalances which our culture has. ..............[/quote:2xesqfgv] Just to address this one point, aboriginal tribes could and did have devastating effects on their ecology. Of course, they were trying to survive. To deny that say the aborigines of Australia radically transformed their landscape, or likewise the inhabitants of Easter Island, is to indulge in that cultural superiority complex you mention. And in defence of the current western industrial culture, it is precisely that culture that allows us to live beyond 30. Do you want to give it all up? view post

posted 02 Apr 2007, 01:04 in Philosophy DiscussionThe Meaning of Life by anor277, Didact

[quote="Buckethead":1q0xux0l][quote:1q0xux0l]And in defence of the current western industrial culture, it is precisely that culture that allows us to live beyond 30. Do you want to give it all up?[/quote:1q0xux0l] we don't have to give it all up. we just have to start looking at things in terms of comfort, efficiency and sustainability instead of simply comfort and efficiency.[/quote:1q0xux0l] As you say, but I'm not telling other people how to behave. view post

posted 02 Apr 2007, 05:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAre there female skin spies? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Buckethead":1o3uh6uw]my only question in response to the hermaphrodite theory is how come there is never any mention of sexual desire apart from a skin spy's phallus? it seems to me that if they had female reproductive organs they would also have feminine sexual desires, not just masculine ones.[/quote:1o3uh6uw] Tell that too female hyaenas - they have a phallus too! view post

posted 02 Apr 2007, 06:04 in Philosophy DiscussionThe Meaning of Life by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jamara":28x4agoe][quote="anor277":28x4agoe] As you say, but I'm not telling other people how to behave.[/quote:28x4agoe] Why not? We're told how to buy, how to use, how to consume, how to waste, how to learn, how to live, how to sustain a self-destructive society. Why not create a new meme. Somebody has to. Start out by teaching and enlightening and hope it prgresses through the next generation. [/quote:28x4agoe] Good luck with that endeavour. Not telling other people how to behave is a personal choice; it wouldn't work anyway even if I did. [quote:28x4agoe] As far as the question of giving up living beyond 30 or destroying most of the human race, I'd rather have those thiry years. [/quote:28x4agoe] I take it that's a personal choice too. I've had my first thirty and look forward to another serve. [quote:28x4agoe] And aboriginal peoples are as destructive as beavers. They can alter the area around them to great degrees, but if they alter it too much, they die out, i.e. Easter Island. But Civilization does not hold to those laws. If they alter their environment too much, they call FEMA.[/quote:28x4agoe] Beavers don't deforest whole continents, which is what one group of aborigines did. And as regards resource consumption, civilization demonstrably does hold to those laws that operated in Easter Island. There will be a correction if consumption is unfettered. If the appetite of the modern industrial complex continues unabated, both you and I will probably see the consequences in the next 30 years. I think the era of peak oil, i.e. when the volume of oil being pumped out of the ground reaches an inevitable limit, is very close. view post

posted 03 Apr 2007, 00:04 in Philosophy DiscussionThe Meaning of Life by anor277, Didact

[quote="Randal":2d2s9p2l]Side note: even in antiquity and in primitive societies, people lived far beyond 30. Average age a thousand years ago was about 60, iirc. With one very important caveat: average life expectancy was around 60 for children above the age of ten. The very low actual average lifespan was because lots and lots of children died in infancy. Simple math. If one child dies at 3 months old, and the other lives to be 60... average life duration is 30 years.[/quote:2d2s9p2l] You're absolutely right. Thank you for pointing that the average life span was influenced by the high rates of infant mortality. Anyway, I'd think I'd prefer to live to 30 than 60 if it meant me having 3-4 dead babies. view post

posted 03 Apr 2007, 05:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by anor277, Didact

Just on the topic of Moenghus' expulsion, his position within the Dunyain, and likewise Kellhus', I think it is mentioned in the novels somewhere that the Dunyain had no choice but to expel (or send) Kellhus. That is Moenghus was beyond their control, his sorcerous sendings threatened the splendid isolation of Ishual, he asked specifically for his son. The Dunyain had no choice but to send Kellhus ostensibly as an assassin. Those pragmatic enough within the Dunyain to realize that Kellhus might not actually turn off his father might have reasoned that even if this did not occur, Moenghus and Kellhus (or whoever won) would presumably have no interest in returning to Ishual. In the next series, if the "whole world comes into play", the position of Ishual is obviously important. The Dunyain might receive overtures from both Kellhus and the Consult. Alternatively, Achamian, in his search for the Dunyain, might come upon the (sorcerously!) blasted ruins of Ishual and reconstruct Kellhus' history from there. I realize that this is a lot of speculation from so little real information. However, I completely agree with those who hold that the Dunyain are completely innocent of the knowledge of sorcery and that Moenghus' sendings came as an awful shock. view post

posted 04 Apr 2007, 23:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Achamian by anor277, Didact

[quote="Anthorn":3gw6jek8]What about Lewis the trapper, the one left behind by Kellus in the prologue of the Darkness that comes before? I think Akka may find him....[/quote:3gw6jek8] Achamian (and Lewus) would be lucky to find the trapper. When Kellhus deserted him, Lewus' prospects for survival looked very, very poor. Besides even if Lewus was still alive, what could Achamian learn from him (maybe the general direction of Ishual?)? Lewus was the first of a long line of Kellhus' possessions. view post

posted 05 Apr 2007, 01:04 in Off-Topic DiscussionScott Bakker ruined it for me. by anor277, Didact

[quote="lordnull":3qh0zpr5]..................... Guess it's simply a matter of taste. They really are fun to read...but I don't think they're not in the same world as say PoN or aSoIF. I haven't read Erickson much...started Gardens of the Moon...but I'm still working on the A Feast of Crows.[/quote:3qh0zpr5] Agreed on Cook's status in that hierarchy. I would persist with the Erikson novels (the 7th novel is almost out now so there's a lot to read). After [i:3qh0zpr5]Gardens of the Moon[/i:3qh0zpr5], you get an idea of how big that world is and how long was its history - the revelations are slow in coming though. I won't call you a commie pinkoe if you don't like them. view post

posted 05 Apr 2007, 03:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Achamian by anor277, Didact

[quote="Moigle90":vccgsqaw]and even if he does find ishual, what then? What would the dunyain do with him? probably kill him? Maybe he tells them how he knows kellhus or warns them of the apocalypse. But even still, i think they'd kill him on the spot. If they would commit suicide just for recieving dreams from moenghus because he was tainted by the outside world. What would they do with a real stranger?[/quote:vccgsqaw] While Achamian will be a geezer if he searches for Ishual (and probably Atrithau will be first destination as someone else mentioned) he will hardly be defenceless. He is a seasoned sorceror of rank from the most formidable school in the Three Seas. Against Dunyain who have no Chorae and (arguably) no knowledge of sorcery he would be invincible. view post

posted 09 Apr 2007, 23:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAre there female skin spies? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Gravity Gun":53xyseih]........................... Which reminds me of a question: what's with Geshrunni? Why was his face taken? The skin-spies do not need an actual face to pose as that person -- so is that just casual cruelty?[/quote:53xyseih] I agree with you regarding the morphing ability; but if they'rre all sinew not flesh and bone it might be a little easier to accomplish; they could also use prosthetic devices. Some individuals are no doubt easier to fool than others; that pervert Cnaiur is probably one of the easier. The treatment of Geshrunni was probably an example of their cruelty as you say; but it was also a security measure - they wished to conceal his identity to safeguard the impersonator. Questions would be asked of an impersonator if the original turns up brutally murdered the next day. view post

posted 12 Apr 2007, 02:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs No-God an Apache Attack Helicopter? by anor277, Didact

There are some things that we are just not meant to know.......Or at least not meant to know just yet. We do know that the No-God derived from the Consult rather than solely from the Inchoroi. Therefore the No-God was not only a product of the Inchoroi's obsolete(?) technology, but also of the formidable sorcery of men and Non-men - all of whom formed the core of the Consult with the 2 remaining Inchoroi. I can't even give a you good guess as to what the No-God is; nor could Achamian (do you remember that he and Kellhus mused as to the nature of the No-God back in WP? (or earlier?)). Whatever he is, he is a pretty fiendish customer. view post

posted 13 Apr 2007, 00:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKelhus vs ... by anor277, Didact

Still no contest of course, but how about Kellhus versus Tyrion? The little bugger is certainly smart, and he hasn't got much of a face left for Kellhus to read. If Kellhus turned up in Westeros, in defiance of all probability and copyright, the big thrill would be Kellhus showing just how dangerous those lumpen knights actually were. (We've already had a bit of an example there with Syrio and the Faceless Men.) view post

Re: Inchoroi: Aliens or Demons? posted 13 Apr 2007, 06:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Gravity Gun":3m1nfktj]Partly inspired by the reply to my Apache helicopter thread :) -- just what are the Inchoroi? [/quote:3m1nfktj] As you say they are a technogically advanced, starfaring race. Perhaps they were exiled from their home world by religious fundamentalists who were outraged by the Inchoroi's (outrageous!) sexual proclivities. I am not so sure I agree with you that cannot simply define them as extraterrestrials. They are not evil [i:3m1nfktj]per se[/i:3m1nfktj], but they have undoubtedly committed acts of malignant evil. I recall in one of Achamian's dream sequences, Seswatha relates (to Nau-Cauyuti) that they act to close the world; there was a rationale behind the evil acts they commit. One thing I anticipate in Scott's future novels: "how did a starfaring race come to terms with or cope with sorcery and damnation "? From what I have read so far, and of course you may disagree with me, is that the Outside we've seen, the Demons, the Gods, the sorcery, has all been a local (as opposed to a universal) phenomenon. That is while the Outside exists in Eawra as a separate reality, one that can be tapped into and manipulated by some on the physical world, its sphere extends only so far as the physical planet, not across the universe - otherwise the Inchoroi would surely have come into contact with it before. So the planet on which the Inchoroi were marooned had a physical plane, over which the Inchoroi had some control, it also had a heaven and a hell, which must have confounded them at first. The Inchoroi were bound for the latter destination if they didn't do something drastic. That something included them learning sorcery - at least the 2 remaining Inchoroi are adepts - and also to disrupt "the great cycle of souls". view post

Re: The Holy War and the Consult posted 15 Apr 2007, 23:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Holy War and the Consult by anor277, Didact

[quote="Moigle90":3tp5veap]this might be a stupid question but what was the connection betwween the holy war and the consult?[/quote:3tp5veap] Just to repeat what others have said earlier, the Consult conspired to effect the destruction of the Cishaurim. It was not that Cishaurim sorcery posed any threat to them (Gnostic sorcery, as Achamian had related, was superior to the Psukhe, even if the latter was mysterious). The Consult would not tolerate a group that could detect and eliminate their skin-spies, and was impervious to infiltration. Of course Cishaurim impenetrability was due to Moenghus, yet he was not in full control of the Cishaurim. The susbsequent Cishaurim attack on the Scarlet Spires (from the Consult's viewpoint) may have been seen as a further indirect attack on the Consult; the Scarlet Spires was the effectual school of the Three seas and a Consult paw. The Holy War was thus arguably conceived by the Consult, even though Maithanet and Moenghus were willing to go along with the war for reasons of their own. view post

posted 16 Apr 2007, 01:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Holy War and the Consult by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jamara":3u8gbg1g]I thought it was Moenghus who conspired to attack the Scarlet Spires so as to align the Scarlet Spires with the upcoming Holy War. He knew that the Holy War would need a School to enable it to reach Shimeh. And Maithanet knew about this secret war the whole time because Moenghus plotted it with him/informed him of it. That is how Maithanet knew to solicit their aide. [/quote:3u8gbg1g] As I recall it was Moenghus who advised against the attack on the Scarlet Spires - he was convinced (as per Kellhus a/c in TTT) that the skin-spies were agents of the Consult, whereas his colleagues immediately assumed the Scarlet Spires. Moenghus, an indifferent practitioner of the Psukhe, only led a faction of the Cishaurim; he did not control the school. Against Moenghus' advice, a punitive mission was launched against the Spires. Of course, later, Moenghus and Maithanet were able to manipulate the Scarlet Spires unlikely recruitment to the Holy War, an easy task given their special knowledge and relationship, but by this time Moenghus' aim and the Consult's aim had similar imperatives. The Consult needed an army (+ school) to march to Shimeh, and Moenghus needed Kellhus in that army to make that same journey. [quote:3u8gbg1g]The Consult saw the Scarlet Spires hate of the Cishaurim as a possible tool to destroy the Cishaurim. That is why the Synthese was always pushing that the Holy War must succeed. The Holy War would destroy their enemies for them. They just had to prod it along.[/quote:3u8gbg1g] I don't disagree with you there. I recall Conphas in the latter novels suddenly realizing that he, as Emperor designate, was not the main player, and that Nansur politics was not the centre of the world. The Consult must have come to a similar realization, when they discovered that it was not the Cishaurim that had detected their skin-spies but agents from an unknown faction, the Dunyain. view post

Three Seas society posted 20 Apr 2007, 01:04 in General DiscusssionThree Seas society by anor277, Didact

Don't know whether to put this in [i:3j8tw69f]The Great Ordeal[/i:3j8tw69f] section but I'll choose this virgin field and let the moderators decide otherwise. The present society of the Three Seas, as we know, is fairly disfunctional. It is a quasi-feudal system, which operates under (i) gross social stratification, (ii) slavery (perhaps listable under (i)), (iii) the subjection of women, and (iv) a rigid, intolerant patriarchy (again, perhaps listable under (iii)). It is reasonable to anticipate that Kellhus will change this society over the next 20 years, if not by reason of justice or morality then of utility. A society that acts to address (i) and (ii) and (iii), would surely provide a more efficient war machine than the present one (TTT time). As regards (iv), well Kellhus is part of the patriarchy; his elevation of Esmenet points to a more enlightened patriarchy. So what aspects of society are liable to change under Kellhus direction? Comments, discussion? ([i]edited for grammar[i/]) view post

posted 24 Apr 2007, 07:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Achamian the No God? (TWP, pg 12)... by anor277, Didact

Just on this interpretation of the Mog as a soul-stealer or a soul-trapper above. Was it in [i:1nunpuku]The Warrior Prophet[/i:1nunpuku], when Achamian surveys the carnage after the (latest) battle of Mengedda, and relates something like "the soul that encounters him (i.e. Mog) passes no farther". view post

posted 01 May 2007, 23:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by anor277, Didact

This certainly is the thread that will not die. And for a question that is blindingly, obviously yes. When reading this I always keep thinking of an article in [i:2cj9zupn]The Onion[/i:2cj9zupn], [url:2cj9zupn][/url:2cj9zupn]. I suspect that Cnaiür would fully identify with the man in the article: [i:2cj9zupn]"A few months back, I started wearing an intimidating-looking black leather thong with menacing metal studs in the hopes that it would frighten those faggots off, but it didn't work. In fact, it only seemed to encourage them."[/i:2cj9zupn] view post

Re: Questions about Xerius posted 03 May 2007, 21:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions about Xerius by anor277, Didact

[quote="Gravity Gun":2ml67w24]First, why did the Consult choose to kill him?[/quote:2ml67w24] i) Because he was superfluous ii) Because the Consult [i:2ml67w24]knew[/i:2ml67w24] that he planned to betray the march on Shimeh. iii) Because he provoked the desire of a skin spy (whom he had also unmasked) into a killing rage. [quote:2ml67w24] Second, how did he think he could get away with destroying the Holy War in front of Shimeh, even if he succeeds? This is war, involving hundreds of thousands of people -- there's no way he could keep this a secret. How can he possibly escape the greatest outrage (the Shrial Censure would be the least of his problems) among the Inrithi?[/quote:2ml67w24] Perhaps he hoped to present his populace with a [i:2ml67w24]fait accompli[/i:2ml67w24]. Evidently he trusted the Fanim more than his Inrithi brothers. It is also true that Xerius was probably not a very deep thinker. view post

posted 08 May 2007, 00:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions about Xerius by anor277, Didact

Just a thought on why (maybe) the Consult stayed their hand with respect to Xerius when they knew, well in advance, that he had conspired with the Fanim to betray the holy war. Had the heir to the throne, Conphas, been committed to the Holy War, then the Consult would have turned off the treacherous Xerius very early on. Conphas of course was just as duplicitous as Xerius (and much more capable) so any move against Xerius would not have been complete until Conpahs had also been nobbled. (This is probably a failure in the Consult's long term plans - after they knew Xerius has been eliminated, they should have taken steps to neutralize Conphas - but for Kellhus and Achamian, Conphas would have succeeded in the Holy War's destruction before Shimeh.) view post

posted 08 May 2007, 01:05 in Philosophy DiscussionSpoiler! Kellhus by anor277, Didact

@Jamara, I have never seen a baby wild turkey (searching internet rapidly!). Cygnets and goslings are cute little things too. Baby snakes/crocodiles/sharks???? yuck. And regarding the mammalian propensity to nuture I do take your point that we seem to be hard-wired to find certain things appealing (when otherwise they are dirty, smelly, and very demanding). Mind you the young of non-placental mammals (when just born) are definitely not cute - give them a few months though. view post

posted 09 May 2007, 23:05 in The Thousandfold Thoughtart work by anor277, Didact

Is it a figure, or a face? If a face, the 4 outstretched "arms" for mine suggest a skin spy. view post

Re: Miscellaneous Stuff posted 12 May 2007, 03:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMiscellaneous Stuff by anor277, Didact

[quote="Gravity Gun":td4pwkt3]Just to be sure: Kellhus is immune to Chorae now, right? But why?[/quote:td4pwkt3] I don't know where you got that idea. Kellhus is demonstrably not immune to chorae. When he fought the ranking Cishaurim, he conjured a vortex of debris to protect himself from chorae projectiles; his preternatural reflexes enabled him to grasp a chorae bolt (i.e. the pointy end not but not the trinket end) but he (and Moenghus) are clearly susceptible to them. I grant that in 20 years Kellhus may unravel the Aporos but that remains to be seen. [quote:td4pwkt3] Also, on the number of Srancs: how can there be that many? The book speaks of numbers stretching across the horizon, even in the days of the Apocalypse. Yet I have the impression that: 1. they need food no less than human; 2. they are hunter-gatherers. Human populations began to explode only when we adopted agriculture. As hunter-gatherers there simply isn't enough food to feed a big population.[/quote:td4pwkt3] I think the Srancs were described as able to eat anything organic. We know they infest the north; there probably remains enough resources to sustain a large population, certainly enough to prevent human resettlement. [quote:td4pwkt3] Bashrags: what do they look like? Due to my infatuation with Warcraft back in the days, I can't seem to shake the image of [url=]Ogres[/url:td4pwkt3] of various sorts whenever I read about Bashrags. Except Bashrags probably don't have two heads. Maybe three?[/quote:td4pwkt3] Trolls, ogres? Your guess is as good as mine. Didn't Seswatha describe the fused bones of a Bashrag somewhere? [quote:td4pwkt3] Mama Anasurimbor: where is she? And more importantly, is she hot? :D Alternative theory on why Kellhus so desperately wants Gnosis: Mother's Day is coming up, and he has give Ishual a "call." If he knows what's good for him. [/quote:td4pwkt3] Presumably, she's back at Ishual. If she has sorcerous ability, she probably didn't survive the culling after Moenghus sending. [quote:td4pwkt3] Zeum: By all indication a large and prosperous nation. How can they be just left out of the story of the second Apocalypse? Judging by map, they have a much better route to Golgoterath by sea -- just hug the coast and head north. [/quote:td4pwkt3] They probably won't be left out. Bakker said somewhere that the 2nd apocalypse will involve the whole world. [quote:td4pwkt3] Eanna: So the gates were broken. Were they re-sealed? If not, how come there is no more contact with the original homeland?[/quote:td4pwkt3] Again, no data. Maybe Earwa was a much richer land than Eanna, and all humans migrated. Maybe the relict human population of Eanna is kept beyond the Pale by Sranc or boundary riders. We don't know at this point view post

posted 13 May 2007, 05:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMiscellaneous Stuff by anor277, Didact

Just regarding the chorae arrows, it is fairly clear that if there is no contact (between sorceror and trinket) there is no effect. I had the idea that chorae were fixed to existing arrows, bolts etc; it is probably as likely that the chorae arrows have not points or heads but the chorae at the business end of the shaft. The chorae is fixed to the end of the arrow, which does not have a pointy, sharp head (shades of Fiddler's crossbow here). Anyway, a long thread ago I had the idea that Kellhus would have been safer if he had not learned the Gnosis in that it gave an assassin the one opportunity to mark him with a trinket (cf Moenghus again), whereas a regular assassin, no matter how skilled, would have stood no chance mano a mano. As you say he is probably just as safe as a (chorae vulnerable) sorceror. We will see what he makes of the Gnosis. No doubt he has now got access to a chorae hoard after Shimeh; great opportunities for experiment. view post

posted 15 May 2007, 07:05 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":3fb07yag] The question of Kellhus's prophetic status is, perhaps, the single most important debate pertaining to Eärwaen future. I have two friends whom I'm fortunate enough to discuss these novels with in person every so often. I can think of no more heated debate even amongst the three of us, let alone these forums. I do [b:3fb07yag]not[/b:3fb07yag] believe Anasûrimbor Kellhus to be a prophet. Delusional or emotionally deluged but not a prophet. [/quote:3fb07yag] As regards Kellhus status as prophet, whether he is shamming or not, I believe he is every bit as entitled to that status as Fane or Inrithi Sejenus. What were these two individuals but charismatic leaders, who (probably) felt that they were on a mission from God. Did these earlier prophets themselves believe the lies they told? Probably. If they didn’t, does that disqualify them as prophets; it certainly doesn’t make any difference to their faithful, whose belief is still devout. As you say, Kellhus is now the heir to Seswatha, and Celmomas, [i:3fb07yag]and[/i:3fb07yag] Inrithi Sejenus. The laity's belief in him (especially if he has modified some of the oppressive aspects of Three Seas culture) must be absolute. I don’t think Kellhus (yet) believes the lies he has told, but, as he himself contemplated, what would be the faithful’s reaction if he tried to tell them the truth. [quote:3fb07yag] To believe in Anasûrimbor Kellhus is an Inrithi prophet then you must believe all that implies about the philosophy of Eärwa. To believe in the Warrior-Prophet is to accept the Inrithi religion and it's world philosophies as true, regarding the innumerable aspects of the God and the Outside. As is in our own world, I do not believe that the Men of Eänna nor Eärwa have uncovered the truth concerning the metaphysics of their reality. [/quote:3fb07yag] Again as above, I find it hard to agree with this. To "believe" Kellhus is a prophet is to recognize that Kellhus is another salesman; a rather better one than Fane or I. Sejenus. (PS "Sejenus", that's an unfortunate choice of name, wasn't Sejenus the head of the Praetorian Guard under Caligula?) [quote:3fb07yag] In light of this, I cannot count the amount of false speculation here on the forums that accepts the Outside as fact. To myself, the only proof we have of the Outside we owe to Iyokus and the Daimos. [/quote:3fb07yag] Again, the Outside in Kellhus' world is a given. I don't think we have misinterpreted the novels if we accept the outside as facts, and the Gods as greater and lesser demons. The scepticism we have in our own world of prophets and gods and metaphysical beings (whatever theses things are) is reserved in a fantasy novel, where there is manifest proof of the same. [quote:3fb07yag] I have spent long hours pondering Kellhus's own Great Ordeal. Like his ancestor, Celmomas II, before him, Kellhus's Ordeal is facing a likely still hypothetical threat. Though the skin-spies have been uncovered, as the Dûnyain Kellhus and Moënghus are/were the only two whom can recognize them for what they are, I'm sure that the Consult can sufficiently implement them into the Three Seas again. Likely then, the Consult will know that Anasûrimbor Kellhus has called a holy war against them. [/quote:3fb07yag] Well Maithanet also could make a good stab at recognizing the oversexed buggers and neutralizing them. Esmenet, with much less resources, also seemed to do a good job in the lead up to Shimeh. Kellhus (and Moenghus) could not do everything, and part of their success was their delegation to others tasks that ordinary human resources could accomplish. I don't doubt that the Consult will still have intelligence in the next 20 years. [quote:3fb07yag] A final two points pertaining to the march of the Great Ordeal, two speculations of my own which I assert as truths. The Great Ordeal called by Anasûrimbor Kellhus will ultimately meet defeat, another Ordeal broken and dashed against the twin horns of Min-Uroikas. Anasûrimbor Kellhus will die. For a moment, I'm going to pause here to iterate something that I feel many, if not all, posters need to realize about the Celmomian Prophecy. A harbinger is not a saviour, it is a signal or a sign. The Anasûrimbor Kellhus is the harbinger of the Second Apocalypse. [/quote:3fb07yag] Just on this subject, it is not too unreasonable to suppose that Kellhus will make a swift exit (probably by misadventure) very early on in the next series of novels. This is perhaps good for the storyline, on the basis that no adversary could realistically present Kellhus a worthy challenge. It’s all very well being a Dark Lord or arch villain or malefic demon, but let’s face it should any one of Lord Voldemort, the No God, Mrs Coulter, or Morgoth, take on Kellhus not only would Kellhus be four steps ahead of their every evil machination, but Kellhus could offer to sort out their personality problems and even toss in a very credible chance of eternal salvation. Kellhus is simply omnicompetent, too capable, and in the next 20 years he is likely to become the paramount sorceror, as well as the paramount thinker, and soldier. On the other hand, maybe the plans of the Consult have been too well-laid, over too long a period, for even Kellhus' stupendous abilities to overcome. Simply for the sake of the story, it must be hard to have a character such as Kellhus; he is so good at everything he does. I look forward to see how Scott will resolve this problem. view post

posted 15 May 2007, 07:05 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

[quote="Aerek urs Sjaarda":pl3zibmn]The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that disorder in a closed system increases with time (And the earth is essentially a closed system), forces us to conclude that the earth was once more organized and integrated than it is now. What modern science is saying about evolution increasing the organizational cell and DNA structures is contrary to this Law. Also, EE, you said, "But Evolution is one of the strongest and most robust theories in all of science and has weathered the test of time quite well so far" Keep in mind that evolution is just that, a theory. There is no possible way to test it or observe it in action in any proper sense, neither has it been proved. Belief in evolution then is a form of faith, so what you believe isn't really different from most religions.[/quote:pl3zibmn] I don't want to become involved with a debate with a devout believer, but you are plain wrong on your thermodynamics and your conception of theory. The Earth is not a closed system; the sun is a large source of negative entropy, and all of us see it for 10-12 hours each day. Of course evolution is a theory, a large scale generalization that [i:pl3zibmn]accounts[/i:pl3zibmn] for all the evidence in its totality and [i:pl3zibmn]predicts[/i:pl3zibmn] what we are likely to see in the fossil record and experiments. What evolution is has twice been articulated in this thread; it is eminently testable; in no wise can it considered to be a belief or object of faith. You are entitled to your belief but those old canards are not worth repeating. [i:pl3zibmn]ETA: Sorry Randal, I did not even see your post, when I read that last post I was literally foaming at the mouth. And to think that the theory of evolution does not even really compromise belief in a creator.[/i:pl3zibmn] view post

posted 28 May 2007, 02:05 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

Just to add a another tired, commonly quoted mistruth about evolution: [i:3ocj76m6]"Evolution teaches that man came from the apes"[/i:3ocj76m6], a canard that's been with us since at least the time of the Scopes Monkey trial. Of course, evolution teaches no such thing, it suggests that humanity and the great apes had a common, recent ancestor. There was this joke going round that if mankind shares 98% of its DNA with chimpanzees (and I don't know if that figure is right), then why aren't the police checking ape alibis for all of the crimes they committed? view post

posted 28 May 2007, 04:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMiscellaneous Stuff by anor277, Didact

[quote="Cohen":hxg7w3to]Can you elaborate on the Khellus killing Maithanet's Father, granted I only read TTT once and am rereading TDTCB for the third time, but could you reference it for me so I can find that part?[/quote:hxg7w3to] As per WP's reference. Note that Kellhus despatched his father purely by mundane means - he stuck a knife into him - maybe also he (K) did not how to voice a cant capable of killing his father. Because Moenghus did not die immediately, the assumption is that Kellhus mortally wounded him. Even in such a condition, and blind to boot, Moenghus the Dunyain was far too dangerous to approach lightly. It was left to Cnaiur to deliver the coup de grace; of course Cnauir could handle a chorae. PS Kudos to WP and the other moderators for removing a heap of spam. view post

posted 30 May 2007, 04:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by anor277, Didact

[quote="amodman":284445nt] What this not explain, however, is why, when the Inchoroi came to the Three Seas, did they war with Non-Men? If Men themselves were nothing but roaming animals at the time, what threat did the Non-Men pose that the Humans did not then warrant? And of course, the Non-Men's existence evenutally no longer seems a threat to the Inchoroi (see - the Non-Men on the opposite side of the Apocalypse). Perplexing indeed, which begs the further (among many) questions, [b:284445nt]what the f*** are the Non-Men?[/b:284445nt] Are they perhaps the supposed God's original favored children, corrupted by never-ending life like the fall immortal man in the Garden of Eden in the Bible? Was this favor then passed to Men, whose existence seems somehow related to the Non-Men, which became the next threat to the Inchoroi, but who were too weak to do anything about it until Men's own Sorcereries were able to revive their strength?[/quote:284445nt] I can address this question at least. Achamian specifically describes the war between the newly arrived Inchoroi and the Non-Men - detailing it as far antiquity. The glossaries in TTT go a bit further - the Inchoroi arrived, a catastrophic event, they warred with the Non-Men, they made peace with the Non-Men (and caused their destruction as a living culture), and lastly an apocalyptic war that destroyed all but 2 of the Inchoroi. As to the Non-Mens' identity, they are the original inhabitants of Earwa, Elves in Tolkien speak, possessed both of sorcerous and martial power. view post

posted 30 May 2007, 07:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by anor277, Didact

[quote="amodman":1zmfqtcx][quote="anor277":1zmfqtcx]As to the Non-Mens' identity, they are the original inhabitants of Earwa, Elves in Tolkien speak, possessed both of sorcerous and martial power.[/quote:1zmfqtcx] No offense, but I don't care how the Non-Men relate to Tolkien, I care how they relate to Bakker's world, and why the Inchoroi felt the need to war with them, and later not (but are hell bent of wiping out the humans). There's a lot about the Non-Men, and motivations of their conflict, which we do not know, but holds great weight.[/quote:1zmfqtcx] No offense taken, but we've only met one Non-man in Bakker's world; we've seen a tantalizing glimpse of their civilization in Kyudea(?). From the TTT glossary we know that the contemporary Non-men are near physically immortal, thanks to a terrible curse wrought by the Inchoroi when they acted as their physicians. The burden of their great age sends a lot of them mad, i.e. "erratic". The Non-men (there are no Non-women now thanks to above) have a moribund culture; arguably they do not now form a part of the great cycle of souls because they cannot reproduce (and hence no danger to the Consult). The Consult probably now regard them as superfluous, a problem that the Inchoroi cunningly dealt with ages ago. The Non-men of Ishterebinth (spelling?, I always get it wrong) are still dangerous to approach because of their prodigious sorcery but they are all relics of a bygone age. view post

posted 03 Jun 2007, 06:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":33np80th] No, the man tormenting Seswatha on the wall is in fact the same man Kellhus confronted in TDTCB.[/quote:33np80th] Spoiler alert obviously broken. There is no indication in the novels as to that individual's identity. view post

posted 03 Jun 2007, 23:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":994g4d0b]Yes Bakker slipped up and revealed his identity on the board. He later expressed regret for so doing.[/quote:994g4d0b] That was my point. Some of us don't like spoilers and would prefer to read the novels on a fresh, unspoiled basis as they become available. I don't like knowing what I am getting for Xmas either, likewise when my first baby was born I didn't want to know her sex beforehand (since she was born in Germany we always to remind the doctor to use "es" not "er" or "sie"). view post

posted 12 Jun 2007, 04:06 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Achamian by anor277, Didact

[quote="kaboos":19t5f31d]Hey all my first post :D I'm basically thinking that because akka renounced hi involvement with the mandate his powers might grow somewhat?(that would be cool) Because at the end of TfT he basically kicks tonnes of ass all by himself. But it seems most likely that he'll wander off into the north and not only find out stuff about he dunyain but also the consult. Either way akka is still the most bad ass sorcerer of all time ....( other than seswatha of course.)...and will most likely do some more killing before he dies. go achamian :twisted:[/quote:19t5f31d] Unfortunately, there is not too much evidence regarding Achamian's ability as a sorceror. He was a sorceror of rank (whatever that means) of the Mandate, which makes him formidable. He was also used by that School as a field agent (the Scarlet Spires top dog, whose name I forget, at one stage ruefully makes this point, but is still unwilling to test his ability solely on the superiority of the Gnosis). The quorum especially, there must be other members of the Mandate who are quite superior to Achamian in the practice of sorcery. view post

Re: the prohibition on teaching the gnosis and hypnosis posted 15 Jun 2007, 05:06 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Akka and Kelhus will be the Greatest Ordeal by anor277, Didact

[quote="shiva":130pmey6]The inability to share the gnosis with someone not Seswatha approved, even when subjected to cants of compulsion, tells me the ritual with Ses' heart is no trick of hypnosis. I think that somehow part of Ses' mind is bound to the heart and passed into members of the Mandate. Akka remembered speaking to Kellhus in his hypnotrance but not what he said, i think Kellhus convinced Seswatha-within to let Akka teach him. Shiva[/quote:130pmey6] On the other hand, the fact that Kellhus, with (then!) purely mundane methods at his disposal, could subvert Mandate strictures, points to the fact that a Mandati's inability to betray the Gnosis was somehow due to a conditioning process - conditioning in which Seswatha somehow featured very strongly. We don't know so many things. view post

posted 18 Jun 2007, 06:06 in Literature DiscussionParadise Lost by anor277, Didact

Just to add that one of the best prose homages to [i:1z0xo12d]Paradise Lost[/i:1z0xo12d] is Philip Pullman's [i:1z0xo12d]His Dark Materials[/i:1z0xo12d] trilogy (and Pullman acknowledges his debt to Milton). The novels have characterized as works but they are wonderfully inventive, gripping, and a cracking story. view post

posted 21 Jun 2007, 23:06 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Achamian by anor277, Didact

[quote="Hellscythe":3b84r3sr]Might Kellhus try and kill the other Dunyain?[/quote:3b84r3sr] He might, that is if the other Dunyain are still around, and have not been found and turned off by the Consult, who have been actively looking for them. It would also not be too surprising if (after 20 years) the Dunyain is actually in league with the Consult, and are directing Consult breeding programmes, foreign policy, research into sorcery and the Tekne etc - then again maybe that would make the Consult too formidable. view post

posted 22 Jun 2007, 03:06 in Author Q &amp; AHalos about Kellhus' hands? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":3fxiwluc]........................ I'm not sure what to make of the no-god speaking to Kellhus. We know that Tsuramah is a construct of the Tekne, and it follows that he would be similar to the skin-spies in that he exists only within the circle of the world as they do - this would be consistent with his powers and purpose. The fact that he is dead kind of precludes him talking to anyone, except maybe as an echo - perhaps he exists in a nascent state as the Consult works to resurrect him, but I very much doubt that he is an active participant in the events that occur - you would exepct that he would be in contact with Aurax and Aurang before he went checking out Kellhus.[/quote:3fxiwluc] Just to chime in on this point, we do not [i:3fxiwluc]know[/i:3fxiwluc] that Tsurumah was solely a product of the Tekne. He was raised by the Consult, which then included the Inchoroi brothers, Mekeritrig, Shauriatis, and other unknown individuals (probably both men and non-men versed in Gnostic and aporetic? sorcery). The point is that there may be a sorcerous component to his being, even if Mog bore aporetic artefacts and was defeated by a technological (as far as we know) device. At the moment we simply don't know; if Kellhus has communicated with him somehow, he must surely have a reality beyond technology - certainly the phrase "the soul that encounters him passes no further", which Achamian related, does not describe a technological device. I wonder how he is going to be introduced? Wnen Achamian mused with Kellhus about the No-God's nature (in WP?) he (A) could not describe him (Mog) in any meaningful way. I think we are likely to see many rabbits out of hats in the Aspect emporer. Just regarding Kellhus' status as a prophet, I feel that all our reservations about him should also be extended to Sejenus and Fane. Both of these latter may have been the artful hucksters that we suspect Kellhus is. view post

posted 23 Jun 2007, 10:06 in Author Q &amp; AHalos about Kellhus' hands? by anor277, Didact

[quote="professor plum":27yeg68k]That's definitely the impression I formed, Harrol. Sticking with my oversoul theory for now...[/quote:27yeg68k] I think you shoould probably repeat that theory, too many threads in the dim, distant past to which to trawl. We don't know of course that Scott B's own ideas on the No-God's are yet mature. view post

posted 26 Jun 2007, 01:06 in Author Q &amp; AHalos about Kellhus' hands? by anor277, Didact

@PP, thank you for finding that old thread. If I am reading you right, the idea of the No-God as a continental soul vacuum cleaner is not a bad one - only inference and not evidence there to support it though. I am more inclined to believe that the No-God's effect on the newly born is more of a technological effect, an epidemic virus for instance, than a metaphysical one. All speculation of course and you are just as likely to have described the No-God's nature. I do note that Achamian said that agents of the Consult recovered the No-God's "accursed" remains after Mengedda - on this basis it is reasonable to believe that Mog has a technological component. view post

posted 26 Jun 2007, 01:06 in Off-Topic DiscussionIs Bakker a huge fan of Frank Herbert? by anor277, Didact

Just on this topic, I think Scott has said somewhere that the Skinspies were an obvious homage to Herbert's Facedancers. As regards Bakker's ability as a writer and storyteller versus Herbert, I think most of us could agree that the pupil has far excelled the teacher. view post

posted 26 Jun 2007, 06:06 in Author Q &amp; AHalos about Kellhus' hands? by anor277, Didact

[quote="professor plum":3sv5rw8g]But why would such a virus be tied to the No-God? Why would people be able to feel his dreadful presence beyond the horizon if he was just a monster-controlling death factory? [/quote:3sv5rw8g] Buggered if I know; it's just that the Inchoroi probably (almost certainly) used mundane means to break the soul cycle of the Non-Men (when they acted as Non-Men physicians). The Consult may have followed their lead. And I don't don't doubt that sorcery of some form was part of the No-God's makeup. Again, I didn't say you were wrong, I was more inclined to consider an alternative explanation. [quote:3sv5rw8g] A mundane cause of universal stillbirths would require a pretty damn effective transmission mechanism. It wasn't [i:3sv5rw8g]some[/i:3sv5rw8g] or [i:3sv5rw8g]many[/i:3sv5rw8g] or [i:3sv5rw8g]most[/i:3sv5rw8g] babies that were stillborn while the No-God was around, it was [i:3sv5rw8g]every single one[/i:3sv5rw8g]. And that stopped after he was heronspeared, right? (Or am I speculating?) So, in Eärwa, I think the metaphysical explanation for this is more plausible. [/quote:3sv5rw8g] Again, we have no data. The No-God had mortal worshippers; the still birth epidemic [i:3sv5rw8g]may[/i:3sv5rw8g] have been selective. It's hard to believe that the Scylvendi, an "ignorant" steppe people who must have prized fertility, continued to worship a god whose being denied that fertility; they are hard but could they be that hard? As I read the snippets that we had so far, the plague of still-births did end after the No-God's passing. [quote:3sv5rw8g].................. As for Mog's accursed remains, well, Achamian doesn't know what the No-God is. For all we know the Consult may have merely collected the remnants of the Carapace.[/quote:3sv5rw8g] I just mentioned the No-God's remains because I wanted to use the term "accursed". I don't know about you but I don't get much chance to use that word in normal conversation: "This morning, the [i:3sv5rw8g]accursed[/i:3sv5rw8g] remains of last night's dinner were collected". view post

posted 26 Jun 2007, 23:06 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat is going on in Iraq? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jamara":2arifkod]Also, the Crusades were based on financial reasons, not religious. Religion was just the propaganda tool used on the people. Just like slavery was the propaganda used on the North during the American Civil War.[/quote:2arifkod] I would strongly disagree with this statement. While no doubt they were victims of propaganda (religious and otherwise), what possible financial motivation had the children's crusades of the early 13th century; it was surely a manifestation of faith. Granted, there were financial winners from any particular crusade, but to mount a expedition to invade a foreign land must have been enormously costly and an argument against financial motives. Certainly, one of the things that we, as educated, secular modern citizens, can learn from the study of ancient and medieval histroy is the centrality of faith in the ancient world, and how decisive it was in shaping world views. It's something that is worth relearning now in the West's relations with the Middle East. view post

posted 27 Jun 2007, 00:06 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat is going on in Iraq? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Randal":27ssh2wf]I'd argue with placing the Reconquista as part of the Crusades. I mean, sure, the label was used, but it was a very different beast. The crusades to the holy land were fought for mainly religious reasons and were strategically and tactically rather unsound due to the vast distances involved and lack of long-term commitment. (from a western p.o.v.) The reconquista was very simply a part of the ongoing struggle between the Muslim invaders and the remnants of the prior visigothic occupiers. It was a plain old normal war, where religion was used by the christian kingdoms to give their troops' morale a good boost. (far more relevant than the reconquest itself, in my opinion, was the later religiously inspired intolerance shown... spanish inquisition, anyone? Still, I don't think that can be blamed on the crusades either. There were plenty of christian crackdowns.)[/quote:27ssh2wf] Just as an aside regarding the Reconquista, one of the sites to visit in Spain in Santiago de Compostela, which has the reputation of the 3rd most holy city in christendom, based the fact that is was here that Moors were finally stopped (Saint James "Iago" appeared to repel the invaders). view post

posted 27 Jun 2007, 02:06 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Akka and Kelhus will be the Greatest Ordeal by anor277, Didact

[quote="shiva":36k4lnd7]In 20 years time Kellhus will had not only learned every Gnostic cant known to the Mandate, but have had the time to add a 2nd inutteral to the lot of them. Akka's my favorite character but he would have NO chance and he is smart enough to know this. Not only that but he'd not chance the world over his broken heart, if he was going to it would have happened at the end of TTT.[/quote:36k4lnd7] This makes good sense; Achamian vs Kellhus sometime in the distant future is a non-starter. Besides, it would not only be Achamian vs Kellhus, it would be Achamian vs Kellhus + the rest of the Mandate. Achamian will probably rely (and continue to rely) on Kellhus' forbearance in the next 20 years; as a renegade sorceror he is damned twice over by his school and his prophet. In other words, unless Kellhus orders high level protection for Achamian, he (A) is likely to be assassinated. view post

posted 28 Jun 2007, 05:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWho was Kellus talking to? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":t1levp2s]I think outside of the strict hierarchy of Ishuäl, the Dûnyain are natural enemies. I think it's like the Kellhus/Comphas clash that came to be because both were so similar. Kellhus and Comphas are both ambitious and charismatic manipulators of other people, and while Kellhus is plain better in every respect, Conphas is good enough not to be taken in by Kellhus's deceptions and to mount some plausible opposition. I think the Dûnyain sent Kellhus fully knowing that Kellhus and Moënghus would never cooperate. One would kill the other. Either that, or one would manipulate the other from the shadows in order to gain a greater control over the world, since there are few tools more effective than a Dûnyain who thinks he is making his own choices...[/quote:t1levp2s] The Dûnyain ostensibly sent Kellhus from Ishual to assassinate Moenghus. The Dûnyain left behind arguably had no way of knowing of whether Kellhus would succeed or not, or even reach an accommodation with his father. As far as we know, this uncertainty was not too troubling; Moenghus demanded that he be sent his son and would threaten Ishual's isolation otherwise; the Dûnyain obliged him but sent Kellhus as an assassin. For the Dûnyain Kellhus departure from Ishual was a sort of zero sum game; whatever the result they would neutralize Moenghus - possibly they are aware of the potential of Kellhus. view post

Re: Nothing against female Fantasy authors but... posted 02 Jul 2007, 07:07 in Literature DiscussionNothing against female Fantasy authors but... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Chyndonax":2uws00lf]Am I the only one who has trouble getting into their works. It seems like every time I try and get into a book by a female fantasy or sf author I can't. It just isn't interesting at all to me. Anyone else feel the same? And Diane Duane is the exception here. She's a fun read.[/quote:2uws00lf] Isn't Robin Hodd a woman? She writes excellent fantasy novels. And I forgot Ursula Le Guin, a very accomplished writer of SF (I don't think her fantasy novels compete); and there is Caroyln Cherryh, whose fantasy novels (the Tristan series in particular) are very readable. view post

posted 03 Jul 2007, 02:07 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tar.Aldarion":39yb3qwd]This definitely does not seem to be Serwe's heart that he pulled out, I am confused by this, it all points to him pulling out his own heart, yet he does not seem to have the power of illusion.[/quote:39yb3qwd] It is fairly clear that it was Serwe's heart; how could it be otherwise? view post

posted 03 Jul 2007, 03:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAre there female skin spies? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":3it4bjix]Yeh - the height, build etc. But we are never told specificly how they get the face right - even a trained artist requires a model when painting a likeness - it doesn't seem too unlikely that copying the specifics of a face (which is ever the prime subject of scrutiny) would require some study/preperation. There are no examples of a skinspy copying one straight of the bat.[/quote:3it4bjix] There is lots we don't know. But the mutilation of Geshrunni's face served a mundane purpose: that of security. Suppose a skin spy wanted to impersonate Geshrunni, he does so, and then Geshrunni's mortal remains are discovered the next day; cover broken. For the skin spy to function he must dispose of his model's remains - taking their faces concealed the impersonation. view post

posted 03 Jul 2007, 08:07 in The Warrior ProphetKellhus the God by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tar.Aldarion":1cdyo2m5]You have to remember that the girls only like the consult in bed because of their insidious sorceries. ;)[/quote:1cdyo2m5] As I recall, the "race of lovers" were simply good in bed. Somewhere in WP it was mentioned that the Inchoroi had over 100 terms for different types of ejaculation. view post

posted 04 Jul 2007, 03:07 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tar.Aldarion":3kzvlstc]Why is it clear? It is clearly said later that the Grandmaster of the Scarlet spires saw Kellhus pull out his own heart. He did not mention Serwe. It also says he reached into 'his' chest doesn't it? Unless he is calling her his heart. However this is still not reason for The Grandmaster to definitely bthink that Kellhus is a prophet, which he does after seeing him pull out 'his own fucking heart'.[/quote:3kzvlstc] Eleazaras also said something to the effect of "that had to be a trick", which it surely was. Serwe's remains were mutilated by the Tusk faithful, which included Sarcellus, a dog on heat; I suspect they did a very thorough job. How could Kellhus, a man of sublime but [i:3kzvlstc]mundane[/i:3kzvlstc] abilities, reach into his own chest and pull out his heart, even with the "glittering abstractions of the Gnosis" (which was not available to Kellhus at the time)? Maybe Kellhus utilized sleight of hand, which the psychic surgeons of our world do, to make it appear he was holding his [i:3kzvlstc]own[/i:3kzvlstc] heart, as another trick for the rubes - Eleazaras could not quite believe it. And even if he did have the abillity, why should he do it after he had been almost scourged to death and crucified; would it have done anything for his circulation? view post

posted 04 Jul 2007, 04:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAre there female skin spies? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tar.Aldarion":jphqc291]It didn't really, as, Geshrunni was still easily recognised by the Scarlet Spires without his face and they never seem to take faces after that.[/quote:jphqc291] And they recognized him by other means. Nevertheless, mutilation would have always been a good idea if a skin spy wanted to succeed in its imposture. Questions would be asked if the original's remains were recognized as I pointed out. [quote:jphqc291] We have seen the skin spies copy a lot of faces where it does not look like much study was put in, they are probably good at what they do and just need to see the persons face. Kellhus mentions imperceptable changes in height and build but never that the face was any different.[/quote:jphqc291] Kellhus did just that for Skaeos(?), the Nansur vizier; of course Kellhus had never met Skaeos [i:jphqc291]de jure[/i:jphqc291] before. Kellhus was able to detect the lack of facial musculature. The skin spies evidently do a very good job but they are not impenetrable to even a blind Dunyain. view post

posted 04 Jul 2007, 04:07 in Literature DiscussionNothing against female Fantasy authors but... by anor277, Didact

@TA, thanks, I must have her confused with Robin Hood - but he had external genital organs. view post

posted 04 Jul 2007, 23:07 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by anor277, Didact

@TA, I think we are flogging a dead horse. I maintain that Kellhus could not pull his own heart of his body; you maintain otherwise and you are perfectly free to do so; let's leave it there. view post

posted 05 Jul 2007, 05:07 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":3t0k2txz]"He looked into their wasted faces, answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwe's burning heart." p598 TWP[/quote:3t0k2txz] Thanks Curethan. I seem to remember, earlier on the Q & A thread, that Scott addressed this very issue; he said that some mistakes slipped through the final editing - the ambiguity over the organ Kellhus flourished was one of them. (And why her heart, not her lungs, liver, lights?) The quotation you cite makes the matter very clear. You might be interested that there is a youtube video somewhere (whose site I should dig out sometime) of an accomplished magician performing surgery with his [i:3t0k2txz]bare[/i:3t0k2txz] hands - of course he is not trying to convince anyone that he's doing it for real. view post

posted 08 Jul 2007, 23:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus + the Daimos by anor277, Didact

[quote="avatar_of_existence":2jtk2rae]wasn't the whole idea that the Gnosis was vastly superior to the Agnosis or whatever it was called? Plus he's probably not stupid enough to bind his soul to a demon.[/quote:2jtk2rae] I think somewhere Scott talked about the summoning of [i:2jtk2rae]agencies[/i:2jtk2rae] by Gnostic sorcerors. But as you say, Kellhus is likely to be far more powerful than an agency or demon. He is the only individual that understands the principles; and he already has a powerful school to teach him the arcana that he cannot deduce himself. Just to add that I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the the Scarlet Spires was an historical curiosity in 20 years time. The school did not manage to defeat the Cishaurim, and their efforts in trying to do so involved the death of all their effective sorcerors bar one, a blind man. Granted, they may have reserves, but their power must surely be greatly diminished. view post

Re: I'm a deist and a taoist, and I still believe in evoluti posted 10 Jul 2007, 03:07 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

[quote="thegreenman":1mle9g8c]I'm a deist and a taoist, and I also believe in evolution (and aliens too!).[/quote:1mle9g8c] To me it has always been puzzling that so many people who do not accept evolution believe that evolution denies a divine being. Darwin called his work (in which he presented abundant, almost overwhelming evidence for evolution), [i:1mle9g8c]The Origin of Species[/i:1mle9g8c], not the [i:1mle9g8c]Origin of Life[/i:1mle9g8c]. And anyway, a science cannot properly suppose a divine being, because in doing so it would no longer be a science. view post

posted 11 Jul 2007, 03:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Dave-grota Sranchammer":2gqi64ki]Good point. The skin-spies may not have souls, but that is not necessarily true of the Inchoroi themselves. I've only read the series once (and probably shouldn't even be making entries in this thread until I've gone through it again), and I know that I have missed many details. Is it ever verified that the Inchoroi do have souls? Is damnation one of their concerns? These are fairly basic questions that I should really know the answers to before I go about spewing theories... [/quote:2gqi64ki] Your guess is as good as anyone's. My understanding is that the remaining Inchoroi do have souls (they might not be able to practise sorcery otherwise); further the other members of the Consult, the Non-Men, and Shauriatas and others(?) have souls as well. Apparently their souls are all bound for perdition unless they do something drastic. Their ambition to close the world was explained by Seswatha to Nau-Cauyuti in one of Achamian's dream sequences. [quote:2gqi64ki] However, they may simply want to close off the world from the Outside for a reason more... alien... than the salvation of their souls (should they have any). I remember the bird-thing (Aurang?) speaking with the Sarcellus skin-spy and telling it to imagine a world where everything was dead, or something equally... appealing. This is the only aim of the Inchoroi that I am able to recall: destroying everything but themselves and their creations. This does not seem to address the issue of souls at all. [/quote:2gqi64ki] Again, if there is no life cycle, if all intelligence is dead, there is no passage of souls. [quote:2gqi64ki] Though, even if they do NOT have souls, they DID flee from the Outside into the world, and death may very well send them back Outside, which is precisely what to do not want to have happen. Either way, souled or not-souled, closing the world from the Outside would be to their benefit. [/quote:2gqi64ki] The Outside, the realm of gods, demons, and spirits, is apparently local; it is confined (arguably) to the planet of Earwa (and understandably a bit of a shock for an ancient starfaring race). It is something different than the void between stars, which the Inchoroi crossed to get to their present world. view post

Re: OK Creation - but why? posted 13 Jul 2007, 00:07 in Philosophy DiscussionOK Creation - but why? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":iod065w0]I was thinking. If Creationism (in any form) is taken to be true - i.e. and some kind of entity created the earth and all us germs, according to some kind of plan, doesn't it follow that the great philosophical question would be: why? - on a level above 'why am I here?', more like, 'why is everything here'?. I mean, does God just make a universe and pop it in the gallery and leave it to the art dealers to try and sell, or was it just to piss me off?[/quote:iod065w0] For mine, I don't doubt that an infinitely powerful artist with an infinite canvas would want to create. And if a creator is responsible for all existence (something that I do not accept), the next obvious question is "Who created Her?". Of course, it might well all be a conspiracy between God and Harrol to really get up Curethan's nostrils. view post

posted 13 Jul 2007, 01:07 in Author Q &amp; AHow about a movie about Prince of Nothing? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":36az4h1f][quote="slh_2000":36az4h1f]heh, which i'd still go see... :P[/quote:36az4h1f] Most of us would, unfortunately no studio is going to pony up the money to do a movie that they know in advance will be NC-17 because then it isn't going to be picked up by the major theatre chains. I think even to get it down to an R rating done in a similar fashion to say 300 would require cutting a rather lot of the movie. I disagree on doing it completely CGI btw, CGI as an effect in otherwise live-action movies is getting so good now that a live action is possible for just about anything. I think you would end up having to compromise a lot to get a movie with major distribution out of the series unfortunately. Of course I would absolutely love to see it done right on the big screen in all its dark and majestic glory.[/quote:36az4h1f] While I too probably would go and see a film adaptation, we'd all go with the expectation that it would be bad; it would be and we would seethe. I don't even think that the inclusion of good CGI would save it; CGI can't save a bad story. While the story was good to begin with, the script writers would inevitably balls it up beyond recognition (a la [i:36az4h1f]Lord of the Rings[/i:36az4h1f]. In the past few years I have seen two good film adaptations of favourite novels, (i) [i:36az4h1f]The English Patient[/i:36az4h1f] upon whose adaptation to the screen the author collaborated, and (ii), surprisingly, [i:36az4h1f]The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe[/i:36az4h1f], which I thought was an excellent movie, which did remain true to the original novel. I gather that there is going to be a film adaptation of one of Steve Erikson's novels, [i:36az4h1f]Deadhouse Gates[/i:36az4h1f]; I'm waiting to be underwhelmed. On the other hand, regarding performances of novels, the best that have been done in my opinion, were BBC Radio 4 radio plays. The two that spring to mind are [i:36az4h1f]The Lord of the Rings[/i:36az4h1f], over 13 hours long(!), and [i:36az4h1f]His Dark Materials[/i:36az4h1f]; and both are available as CD's. These truly are good examples of novels turned into performance pieces. They are meticulously researched, well produced, and brilliantly performed (Gandalf -actor's name? Ian Macekellen?- from the screen version was also in the BBC version). A would be film producer could do worse than hiring Radio 4 staff - at least they would read the novels before they started cutting. view post

Re: Why did the consult kill xerius? posted 15 Jul 2007, 04:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhy did the consult kill xerius? by anor277, Didact

[quote="cloust":31vhz3wt]I don't understand the Consults thinking there. The only think i can come up with is that they wanted a stronger leader (his nephew Conphas) in place so that the Holy War would lose? The idea being it would mean the end of the Dunyain. But as I remember the Consult already chose not to kill the warrior prophet once, when they went after the the consort instead of him in TTT. Also in TTT it was revealed the Consult WANTED the Fanim to lose, because somehow the Cishaurim had spotted the skin spies and kicked them out of Shimeh, which the Consult wouldn't stand for. So... I don't know? Any ideas? What plot line did i miss?[/quote:31vhz3wt] Try this thread for tentative answers: [url:31vhz3wt][/url:31vhz3wt] As regard the dowager empress, we have no way of knowing when the Consult replaced her. Probably some short time after Skaeos was revealed. Istriya [i:31vhz3wt]de jure[/i:31vhz3wt] would have been quite vulnerable to a skin spies; she took young lovers and chose the wrong one. view post

Re: Dissertation posted 15 Jul 2007, 07:07 in Philosophy DiscussionDissertation by anor277, Didact

[quote="rogue":22w401lb]Is there some place where we can get ahold of Mr. Bakker's dissertation? Has anyone read it?[/quote:22w401lb] If you are a local, you would surely be able to get it from McMaster (or the library in the university wherever Scott went). North American universities are also probably geared up to share theses. I am not at work now so cannot check for sure, but it is also likely that Scott has published in the scholarly journals. view post

posted 15 Jul 2007, 07:07 in Philosophy DiscussionOK Creation - but why? by anor277, Didact

@Curethan; No tengo no idea. What sort of artist was God? Was She a piss-artist or a bull shit artist? Probably the latter because She left so many accounts of Her work. I am sure you appreciate the problems of Her creating Herself. view post

posted 15 Jul 2007, 11:07 in Literature DiscussionNothing against female Fantasy authors but... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tar.Aldarion":3qk6n2v2]Yes, but also, there wouldn't be too many like her, and I don't like her anyway. I wonder how many pen authors(that were women pretending to be men) there would be back then.[/quote:3qk6n2v2] The Bronte sisters? It's a male world. view post

posted 18 Jul 2007, 03:07 in Literature Discussiongreat reads in fantasy? by anor277, Didact

The discussion of the [i:1pn933gq]Stormbringer[/i:1pn933gq] series takes me back quite a bit. It is news to me that a film is being made of them. As another blast from the past, I'm surprised that no-one yet has mentioned Philip Jose Farmer's [i:1pn933gq]Riverworld[/i:1pn933gq] series. Sure, now they may be a bit old-fashioned but they were well-written and inventive, and had a great Victorian figure, Richard Burton, as one of the main characters (among other historical figures). [i:1pn933gq]Riverworld[/i:1pn933gq] spawned a lot of fan fiction; the best was Elvis in Riverworld, who (between groupies and pills and deep fried peanut butter sandwiches) despised the English rock and rollers, who thought they invented rock and roll. view post

posted 19 Jul 2007, 06:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by anor277, Didact

[quote="xatantius":3f1klms6]It doesn't really matter ............ Cnaiur's pretty normal wen you compare him to the Inchoroi. they're just...ew :shock:[/quote:3f1klms6] Cnaiur's homosexuality was not an issue; but his knowingly shagging a skin-spy really turns the stomach. He really was quite phucked up - I hope Moenghus was proud. view post

posted 20 Jul 2007, 11:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tar.Aldarion":5t7p3bs8]Anal sex and ignore that it has a penis is the way forward.[/quote:5t7p3bs8] And also ignoring that the thing might rip your face off as soon as look at you is also advised. view post

posted 25 Jul 2007, 00:07 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by anor277, Didact

[quote="RennQu":uijslo23]I also am highly curious about the Nonmen. From the description in the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in the Encyclopedic Glossary found at the end of TTT, there is mentioned a "criminal" recruited for the Second-Watch. Sirwitta (a Halaroi aka Man) had not only seduced the wife of a Nonman Ishroi, but had also fathered a daughter by her named Cimoira............I do not understand why the Nonmen are "doomed" to extinction. It is evident from several passages that cross breeding in fact occured. Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I is said to have lived for 178 years due to reputed Nonman blood in his veins. Also the instance of Cimoira points to genetic compatibility between Man and Nonman. [/quote:uijslo23] So we know that men are sexually compatible with "NonMan" women, but not with certainty the converse - i.e. women may not necessarily be sexually compatible with Non-men. (I agree that the converse is likely; but they may be limits to the Nonmen's ageless health, they may all simply be past it now, or maybe the Inchoroi physicians rendered them sterile as well.) As you say, it may simply be pride that prevents the Nonmen from mingling with men. At the moment we don't know. . [quote:uijslo23] Another thing that I had discovered in this section is that the Nonmen were not always Immortal- they aged (exact lifespan I cannot guess) in a similar manner to men, that is they grey, wrinkle, lose eyesight, weaken etc. Then Cujara-Cinmoi, fearing death, pardoned the Inchoroi on the condition that they "...banish death from the halls of my people". This is how the Cunuroi became, for lack of a better description, physically ageless. This is also when the "Womb-Plague" struck, possibly a byproduct of the physicians treatments. It effectively eliminates the female gender from the Nonmen, unless I am mistaken. I haven't truly decided the intent of the Inchoroi; was this intended? If so, wouldnt they have realized that the retribution for such treachery would be great? I digress... [/quote:uijslo23] As far as I can tell, the womb-plague was almost certainly visited upon the Non-men by design. This was a terrible vengeance wrought by the Inchoroi, but maybe it also served another purpose: it removed the Nonmen from the great cycle of souls, and this served the Inchoroi purpose in closing the world to the passage of souls by ending the cycle of birth and death. No doubt the Inchoroi did anticipate the Non-men reaction. I don't have the glossaries with me now, but in the first encounter didn't the Inchoroi (now with dragons and chorae) prevail? Of course, the Nonmen defeated the Inchoroi eventually, exterminating all but 2 of them, but the damage had already been done. view post

posted 25 Jul 2007, 01:07 in General DiscusssionWhat if Kellhus was one of us? by anor277, Didact

I can see that this forum is full of a lot of heretics who would deny Paris Hilton's manifest divinity. view post

posted 25 Jul 2007, 23:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoënghus won by losing, fooled everybody by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":1ji1eq5x] You know, I think the Moënghus Kellhus is talking to isn't really Moënghus. I think he's possing someone his height and relying on illusion for the rest. I think he arranged the meeting with Kellhus fully intending to get "killed" so that Kellhus would think himself forevermore free from his father's manipulation, thus making him controllable. And I think he probably used possession to make Kellhus stab him at exactly the right moment, so that Kellhus thought it was his idea. I do think Moënghus was the big winner of the trilogy. He controls the Shriah and..................... [/quote:1ji1eq5x] Or maybe Moenghus simply broke a skin-spy, subverted its conditioning and won it to [i:1ji1eq5x]his[/i:1ji1eq5x] cause, and got it to impersonate him in the fatal encounter with Kellhus. It's not impossible, but I don't think it happened - sometimes we err in extending our doubt too far and not making the most likely judgement. Kellhus was convinced he was speaking to his father; Cnaiur was likewise convinced; so were the skin-spies that accompanied him. All of them would probably see thru any attempted deception on Moenghus' part. For mine the indivicual who died in Kyudea must have been Moenghus. view post

posted 26 Jul 2007, 01:07 in Literature DiscussionHarry Potter (don't hurt me) by anor277, Didact

I don't know why anyone should be ashamed of reading [i:12v61uuj]Harry Potter[/i:12v61uuj]; in my opinion the series is deservedly a classic, and it's certainly the type of novel I would have liked to read when I was younger (and even now when I'm a 30+ geezer). I haven't got the [i:12v61uuj]Deathly Hallows[/i:12v61uuj] yet, though I hear good things. So far I thought all the novels were strong except for [i:12v61uuj]Order of the Pheonix[/i:12v61uuj] (no. 5?), as it didn't have any of the humour of the other 6 (I know Harry was a troubled adolescent). Anyway, come the weekend I will but it and give you a rating. view post

posted 31 Jul 2007, 01:07 in Literature DiscussionHarry Potter (don't hurt me) by anor277, Didact

I managed to read the novel in the weekend small hours. It is superb, a thrilling read, and a worthy conclusion to a modern classic. I did not think it was going to be that good, 9+. @Jamara, you are entitled to opinion on the [i:34q5nb42]Order of the Phoenix[/i:34q5nb42], I simply did not enjoy that novel as much as the others. view post

posted 31 Jul 2007, 09:07 in General DiscusssionWhat if Kellhus was one of us? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":33bknack]............... We have no Cnaiur to reveal the Dûnyain to us.[/quote:33bknack] Or if we do, thankfully they are all locked up in maximum security wards. I agree that we'd all be putty in Kellhus' hand; a few home truths, a few subtle insights, and we'd all be marching to Jerusalem or Istanbul or Salt Lake City or wherever Kellhus wanted to go. view post

posted 02 Aug 2007, 07:08 in General DiscusssionHoly War/Crusades similarities by anor277, Didact

You can add the Mongols as Scylvendi-analogues. Obviously there are historical parallels (that I think have been noted before), but I would baulk at designating the Ainoni as Italian or the Conriyans as the English. view post

posted 05 Aug 2007, 10:08 in General DiscusssionHoly War/Crusades similarities by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":3fkiqwzi]Scott has stated before that the Scylendi are based off of the Scythians/Sarmatians more so that the Mongols.[/quote:3fkiqwzi] No doubt, Scott based Scylvendi folkways on the Scythians, but as an all-conquering people of war who were only defeated in battle once or twice, the Scylvendi clearly mirror the Mongols - a people of war with an advanced military machine whose campaigns had devastating effects on Christian kingdoms and Islamic sultanates at the time of the Crusades. view post

posted 17 Aug 2007, 04:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoënghus won by losing, fooled everybody by anor277, Didact

[quote="Gravity Gun":3tcpex81]The point about smell is a good one, but I don't buy that Mo can fool Kelhuss if he used any sorcery at all. Remember, the Psuke (sp?) is already inferior to the Gnosis, and Kelhuss is better at Gnosis than anybody.[/quote:3tcpex81] While the Psukhe is inferior to the Gnosis (in our school boy rankings of various sorceries), had Moenghus used sorcery in Kellhus presence, he (K) would not have been able to detect it. This was the signal difference between Cishaurim sorcery and Gnostic and Anagnostic sorcery (I recall that during one encounter Achamian was amazed by the silence of Cishaurim sorcery - just before he blasted them of course). Anyway, as you don't, I don't buy it either. Moenghus has been turned off. view post

posted 30 Aug 2007, 02:08 in The Judging EyeMaithanet by anor277, Didact

[quote="Cohen":318n3yn5]I feel foolish for not suspecting Maithenet to be Dunyain in the first place, his mannerism and the way he could incite with his voice and all seems so clear in hindsight.[/quote:318n3yn5] That has occurred to me before as well. But I think we are being a little hard on ourselves. Maithenet was an extraordinary individual. From nowhere he had assumed control of the 1000 temples, and it was also known that he was arguably one of the few (or a skin spy) by his recognition of Achamian. But nothing was given away in regards to Maithenet's identity: no clues; no hints; he could simply have been a natural talent. Contrast this with Moenghus/Mallahet, were the clues were pretty much overt, so overt thqt I was inclined to dismiss them. [quote:318n3yn5] But to the topic at hand, in my opinion Maithenet will be only one of Kellhus's counsellors in the new cabinet, perhaps the spiritual leader as he is now and of course completely in league with the shortest path to save the world from being closed. But again I must say how disappointed I am that we will miss 20 years of progress, unless the majority of the first book will be recapping those lost years. The ending of TTT sure left me with allot of questions.[/quote:318n3yn5] Quite possibly there will be a lot of passages quoted from other "works" (maybe authored by Achamian) in each of the chapter headings, that will serve to fill us in on the interregnum. But then again at the end of TTT Kellhus "owned" the world - he held the allegiance (and possibly worship) of if not all the Three Seas rulers, then their heirs. By the beginning of the next novels, Conphas, Saubon, etc would now be rulers of their nations. Maithanet's role is ambivalent; I feel sure he will support Kellhus (though for other reasons than worship). view post

posted 17 Sep 2007, 02:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":2tjg9gif]Thanks Harrol! Whew, thought I was the only one... If I am going over old ground, forgive me, I just finished the trilogy yesterday, and couldn't sleep last night. I think what threw me is that Cnauir seemed utterly surprised that his tribe thought he was a "faggot weeper". Maybe in hindsight, he was surprised that the tribe even suspected, as I am sure he thought his liason completely private and hidden. That said, I don't think he is gay, or rather he would not define himself as gay. We are placing that label on him. He clealy likes/lusts for women as shown in his descriptions of Anissi and Serwe. You don't hear him noticing Conphas' "muscular thighs" for example. Let me expalin further. I am a student at the University of Minnesota and am taking an HIV/AIDS class, and rather than talk about gay men, the instructor kept speaking of "men who have sex with men" or MSM as being high-risk for HIV, blah, blah. I couldn't get my head around this. If you are a man, and having sex with a man, you are either gay, or bisexual. So I asked. Here is my instructor's example. Say you have a male prostitute and he is has majority male clientele, we say "He is gay" - yet you ask said prostitute, and he will say " I love women. I date them when I am not working. I turn tricks with men to put food on the table and pay the rent. I am not gay." This person is MSM, but not gay. Gay is pretty much a self-defined term. So...Cnauir would not define himself as gay. We define him as gay. I compare Moe and Cnauir parallelling sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests. That, and as Scylenvendi culture was short on expressions of love and acceptance, why wouldn't he turn to Moe as a caring, accepting father figure (however false).[/quote:2tjg9gif] Interesting.....Yet Cnaiur was also a murderer, a rapist, and a wife beater - he would probably only accept the first label. Not for a moment do I suggest that a gay individual is morally comparable to a murderer, and I do take the point that an individual is not defined by his sexuality, but are we not free to apply a label if we think (with reason) it fits. view post

posted 17 Sep 2007, 02:09 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":14m1ynci]To Magewind, Ah-nold is too bulky, too slow. I see Cnaiur as leaner and therefore quicker, but still a large man.[/quote:14m1ynci] I always had the idea of Yul Brynner (maybe a bit bigger). I remember years ago that after Brynner's death he had paid to have himself appear on advertising commercials entreating people not to smoke. The funny thing was that Yul Brynner still looked magnificent in these commercials - even despite the fact that he was 70+ and stricken with lung cancer. ([i:14m1ynci] eta: I just learnt that Brynner was only 65 when he died - he still looked like a million dollars in his last days[/i:14m1ynci]) view post

posted 17 Sep 2007, 04:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":1spz9ugc]We can apply labels where ever we like but the only thing that does is draws a box around our own perceptions. I like that, we are really defining ourselves when we label something.[/quote:1spz9ugc] Well, my perceptions definitely have a box around them. view post

posted 17 Sep 2007, 04:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":2wt6qdho]The entire army of the Tusk murdered and raped - one man's soldier is another's...raper and murderer. Cnaiur would not think of himself as a wife-beater either, that is his culture, and when you are inside your culture, you don't see the wierdness of it as an outsider would. [/quote:2wt6qdho] Shell, you should get back to your paper.....On the other hand, Cnauir definitely did appreciate the eccentricity of Scylvendi culture. He (alone of his people?) was intelligent enough to see its ubiquity and strangeness, and Moenghus exploited it. Anyway, whatever his perception of himself, the fact was he was a murderer and rapist and thoroughly despicable individual - and his crimes were as black as those committed by some of the men of the Tusk. view post

posted 28 Sep 2007, 03:09 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":3ro8sy2i]................. Speaking of Conphas, I wondered why he never denounced Cnauir after the rape...[/quote:3ro8sy2i] Conphas' circle of generals [i:3ro8sy2i]did[/i:3ro8sy2i] know what Cnaiur had done. Conphas had either told them, or (more likely) they had found a prone Conphas beaten and buggered half to death. Of course it would have severely tarnished Conphas' lustre to become known as Cnaiur's bitch. view post

posted 10 Oct 2007, 17:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThere are 'no gods' by anor277, Didact

My impression from the novels was that the afterlife and pantheon were fairly well developed and appreciated on Earwa. That demons (lesser gods) and gods (greater demons) existed was a given, and that they would punish and reward certain behaviour seemed to be widely known. The No-God's activity, during his(?) brief existence, was just about the most frightening evil of which I've ever heard - the denial of fertility - he was aptly named, and all to the end of breaking the cycle of souls. view post

posted 13 Nov 2007, 07:11 in Author Q &amp; AKellhus' Other Children and Other Ramblings by anor277, Didact

Just [i:37blisju]apropos[/i:37blisju] of topic, Ishual might even have a sperm bank. No doubt Kellhus had made a few deposits. view post

posted 22 Nov 2007, 03:11 in Author Q &amp; AKellhus' Other Children and Other Ramblings by anor277, Didact

[quote="Kessriga":3g8t3tku]The one other thing that made me wonder was the number of the Few among the Dunyain. I'm not sure what the percentage is that a particular child would be born a sorceror or whether lineage plays a vital role. I don't remember any mention of Celmomas being one of the Few or how many of his ancestors were, if that even matters. It would be a great shock, both to Akka and the Dunyain themselves, if a large percentage of them could perform that supposedly non-existent magic. Perhaps this will create a schism among the Dunyain, those who come to believe the existence of magic and can perform it and those who don't.[/quote:3g8t3tku] I think this question was specifically addressed in the firt novel. Those Dunyain capable of sorcery were (reasonably) also the ones capable of communication with Moenghus. With the exception of Kellhus, all these individuals committed suicide to prevent contamination of Ishual by outside influence. The current Dunyain, therefore, have no potential sorcerors. view post

posted 14 Jan 2008, 02:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mandati Wannabe":1mppdtpi][quote="Khan":1mppdtpi] Answer: No Khellus is a very gifted cold reader and orator, but not a prophet.[/quote:1mppdtpi] Ok, so what is your opinion on the strange things that happen to him? i.e. The Haloes, the "Fortuitous Correspondence of Cause" with Saubon at Mengedda, the No-God visions, the heart ripping out, not the least his own conviction that he IS in fact an agent of a true Creator/God, etc.[/quote:1mppdtpi] A minor point but one that still needs making. It was Serwe's heart that Kellhus brandished after his ordeal not his own; how could he have possibly ripped out his own heart? view post

posted 14 Jan 2008, 09:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mandati Wannabe":28p0zwg6][quote="Harrol":28p0zwg6]anor is right it was Serwe's heart Kellhus was doing some trickery. Scott even said that section was worded in a confusing manner.[/quote:28p0zwg6] Precisely why it can seem like a divine act? It certainly astounded me.... How exactly did he get hers?[/quote:28p0zwg6] It would have astounded both of us had we been there; we would have thought that the sun shone out of K's arse. But Kellhus was practising sleight of hand not sorcery, as do the "psychic" surgeons of the non-fantasy world. As to how Kellhus got her heart, recall that Kellhus punishment included the mutilation of his wife; evidently the Men of the Tusk (and Sarcellus) did a very thorough job. view post

posted 24 Jan 2008, 02:01 in The Judging EyeThe Judging Eye by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":242e2wyu]I think Kellhus is showing every indication of becoming a Dark Lord in the vein of Sauron. ................[/quote:242e2wyu] Well, the Three-Seas certainly deserves a Dark Lord. I hope its rulers and potentates will be crying bloody tears soon. view post

posted 04 Feb 2008, 06:02 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

Just to add that the signal difference between a scientific theory and a religious belief is the former's falsifiability. Falsifiability being a set of facts or an experiment that would persuade you that the theory was invalid and should be abandoned. A religious belief is not falsifiable; it is a matter of faith. All current major (and minor) scientific theories are falsifiable. The theory of evolution certainly is falsifiable (the famous test of evolution's falsifiability is rabbits in the Cambrian - i.e. the appearance of one mammals millions of years before the others). view post

posted 04 Feb 2008, 20:02 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":masqlzum]Anor Please help me understand the rabbit example :? . Thanks[/quote:masqlzum] I actually got it wrong. J B S Haldane, a very famous and erudite biologist, once opined that if he found a fossil rabbit in the [i:masqlzum]Precambrian[/i:masqlzum] he would be persuaded that evolution was wrong. The reason he would do so is that the rabbit, a [i:masqlzum]de jure[/i:masqlzum] mammal, should not have appeared in the fossil record 100 million years before its actual (or at least arguable) fossil ancestors (shades of "what comes before determines what comes after"). This illustrates the idea that one can [i:masqlzum]conceive[/i:masqlzum] of (but not necessarily find) evidence that would tend to falsify evolution. There is other (unfound) evidence and (unperformed) experimental outcomes that would work to the same end, and cast doubt on (or seriously modify) evolutionary theory. All modern scientific theories are falsifiable and evolution is no exception. "Falsifiability" is according to some the most important quality of a theory. Without that quality, the theory may be true or untrue, but it's not testable by any means, and while it may be interesting as a whimsical, philosophical notion, it cannot be clasified as scientific as there is no way to test its accuracy. view post

posted 25 Feb 2008, 03:02 in Philosophy DiscussionThe Reaction of a New Religion by anor277, Didact

[quote="xatantius":eq0fcgs6]If a new religion started tomorrow, and everyone who criticised it spontaneously combusted, I would join it and give it ALL my money, because at the end of the day, you can debate and argue all you want, but you hafta worship the God who can set you on fire.[/quote:eq0fcgs6] And what was the Old testament story, [i:eq0fcgs6]"Elijah and the prophets of Baal"[/i:eq0fcgs6]? I haven't read the OT for a long time, but it's not mentioned whether Elijah got a few converts after arranging for a very convincing demonstration of his God's pyromania. Personally, I like the idea that local car-driving licence authorities should revoke the driving licences of all Christians, in order to prevent the traffic chaos that would ensue (i.e. driverless vehicles) should God call on Christians to ascend during a rush hour. view post

posted 26 Feb 2008, 01:02 in Philosophy DiscussionDo you believe a God exists? by anor277, Didact

[quote="rogue":k2eg116n]Any person that believes in any type of god really needs to read the information on the following website. It may be long, but well worth the time.[/quote:k2eg116n] Thanks for posting that; an interesting read. I think that as well as having it in for amputees, God similarly dislikes Type 1 diabetics. view post

posted 29 Feb 2008, 00:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKelhus vs ... by anor277, Didact

[quote="xatantius":3c1usn20]Kellhus vs. the 300 Spartans :P I think Kellhus hands down. All he'd have to do is reveal their deep-seated sexual insecurities and closeted homosexuality and they'd be too busy crying to own, bwahaha ......................[/quote:3c1usn20] It's a new one to me that the 300 Spartans kept their homosexuality in the closet. A straight Spartan soldier would have been the exception rather than the rule, and because of this Spartan women (from Helen onwards) were criticized by the citizens of other states who decried their sexual freedom. Of course in Sparta, women did not have to be immured away behind doors because most of the men were not interested. view post

posted 02 Mar 2008, 23:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKelhus vs ... by anor277, Didact

@Curethan; I haven't yet succumbed to watching the movie, even on video. What I'd really like to see is a film adaptation of the battle of Salamis; this would have everything, scheming politicians and potentates, cryptic oracles, colliding triremes, and human sacrifice. Of course it would still be a pig's ear but at least it would be spectacular. view post

posted 03 Mar 2008, 04:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKelhus vs ... by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":3vhytqwm]Heh, heh, the best way to watch 300 is turn the sound down and enjoy the view...but that is from a female perspective :wink:[/quote:3vhytqwm] Given their sexual proclivities, actual [i:3vhytqwm]Spartans[/i:3vhytqwm] would probably enjoy it too! view post

posted 05 Mar 2008, 03:03 in Philosophy DiscussionDo you believe a God exists? by anor277, Didact

[quote="jub":1wjndnlk]:roll: ............... And I still haven't seen any 'concrete evidence' that backs up your belief in the non-exsistence of a higher being. Also the link you gave us disputes the importance of Religion, not God. ................[/quote:1wjndnlk] Just wanted to add that I tend to doubt that any such evidence that "proves" the non-existence of a higher being [i:1wjndnlk]could[/i:1wjndnlk] exist. It's a bit of a [i:1wjndnlk]non-sequitir[/i:1wjndnlk]; belief in God or a higher-being is subject to neither proof nor disproof. As regards the link Rogue supplied, it does give us ample evidence that the higher being (however we define him) is not much interested in healing amputees (He isn't interested at all in fact). I think that is sufficient grounds to with-hold our worship. view post

posted 08 Mar 2008, 22:03 in Philosophy DiscussionDo you believe a God exists? by anor277, Didact

[quote="jub":126cl13p]On what basis can you justify the claim that this divinity-in-question is not interested in us? And I am quite certain if you look - try thinking first - you will find dozens of logical arguments as to why a God would choose not to heal amputees. This argument alone accounts to nothing.[/quote:126cl13p] Name one such argument; if God intercedes on behalf of cancer victims and those threaened by bush fires, I doubt it will be logical and sound. view post

posted 09 Mar 2008, 23:03 in Philosophy DiscussionDo you believe a God exists? by anor277, Didact

[quote="jub":3qdbiej9][quote="anor277":3qdbiej9] Name one such argument; if God intercedes on behalf of cancer victims and those threaened by bush fires.[/quote:3qdbiej9] Who said God interceds at all? And what's to say this life is just a test? It would be rather silly if the examiner helped you with your final exam don't you think?[/quote:3qdbiej9] I did, for the sake of argument. Earlier, however, you made a claim that dozens of "logical" arguments could be proposed for God's [i:3qdbiej9]pathological[/i:3qdbiej9] dislike of amputees and his stubborn intransigence with regards to answering their prayers. I asked you to voice one of them. view post

posted 10 Mar 2008, 04:03 in Philosophy DiscussionDo you believe a God exists? by anor277, Didact

[quote="jub":2d6nfk5q].......... However I did say there are dozens of logical arguments that could explain why a God would choose not to heal amputees, or in broader terms, why a God would choose not to intercede in our lives. 1.) It would destroy all the current belief systems as well as social order. 2.) If this God rewarded he would also have to punish in order to keep balance. The link provided before is as useless attempt to hurt current religions and beliefs in a biblical God. ................[/quote:2d6nfk5q] I don't think the link is all that useless in its attempt to discredit current religious belief. Granted, a God that heals amputees might seem to provide evidence that God intercedes in our lives, but since God also allows starfish and crabs to regenerate lost limbs, the occasional stump of an amputee growing back an arm or a leg might not excite such comment if He or She had been doing it throughout human history. This might not have the effect of destroying the social order as you suggest, and the amputee might well be of the opinion, "Bugger the social order, give me my lost limb back". After all, as the link demonstrates, many attribute the remission of a cancer patient to God's intercession in actual human life, and this has had no palpable influence on human behaviour and society. At any rate we are attributing to an entity, for which no evidence exists and for whom no evidence can be adduced, potential motives and rationalizations for his imagined behaviour. And if you don't want to use biblical sources, which sources do you want to substitute in their place? view post

posted 22 Apr 2008, 06:04 in Literature Discussionabercrombie by anor277, Didact

Just wanted to reopen this thread because the last novel in the trilogy, [i:2gxvk3ga]Last Argument of Kings[/i:2gxvk3ga] (this was apparently engraved on Louis' XIV cannons), has been available for a couple of months. I would like to canvas opinions. I liked the series generally, but was less than impressed by the final instalment. Without making too many spoilers, I thought that the identity of the "evil genius" behind the Union was all too predictable, and this individual was all too vulnerable to have exerted the control that he did (Glotka or the King or Ferro or Tolomei could and should have turned him off at the first opportunity). Still a very good series, readable, concise, and (happily!) its publication was not spread over ten years. view post

posted 22 Apr 2008, 23:04 in Literature Discussionabercrombie by anor277, Didact

[quote="noodles0585":13w5idg3]haven't read the last one yet but the other two were pretty impressive not as good as GRRM or Bakker but still worth the read. i plan on reading last argument of kings soon so i will post what i think when i read it.[/quote:13w5idg3] I'll think I'll wait until you finish the series. I apologize for the spoilers above. view post

posted 04 May 2008, 23:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAchamian and the Ciphrang by anor277, Didact

[quote="skinspysexbot":351k6472]surely the ciphrang carrying achamian meant that it had gotten the upper hand on him though?[/quote:351k6472] Just saw this question, and I don't have the books available. I recall that Achamian cast a "skin ward" (whatever that is - presumably it's something to prevent further damage) as the last thing he did to save his skin. It was apparently effective, and further damage inflicted by the demon did not occur. view post

posted 19 May 2008, 05:05 in Philosophy DiscussionIs God Flawed??? by anor277, Didact

[quote="jub":2jjtgrvy]You're right, it is John Milton who did the whole fallen angel thing. Although William Blake does have some tasty proverbs from hell.[/quote:2jjtgrvy] I liked the line in [i:2jjtgrvy]Paradise Lost[/i:2jjtgrvy] where Lucifer says, "Evil be thou my God". view post

posted 20 May 2008, 02:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAchamian and the Ciphrang by anor277, Didact

[quote="Israfel":3iki8cpi]anor277 has it right, I believe. Possibly the wounds Achamian inflicted got the demon eventually, or it broke free of the orders it'd been given and ran off elsewhere, dropping Akka in the sea.[/quote:3iki8cpi] Again my memory is at fault (I think). I had the idea that the demon popped out [i:3iki8cpi]one[/i:3iki8cpi] of Achamian's eyes (i.e. Iyokus literally sent out the Ciphrang on an "eye for an eye" mission). I may be wrong; I'll have to consult the books again. Of course, both Iyokus and Achamian targeted the wrong individual for vengeance. The man who gave the order for Achamian's abduction and Xin's horrible death was not Iyokus but Eleazaras (and of course it was Eleazaras that was responsible for the eyeless predicament of the his spymaster, who had in fact tried to dissuade him (E) from this course of action), and there is an excellently written scene in TTT where Esmenet (as the prophet's consort) spells out the new order's realities to that old bugger Eleazaras - no doubt her own desire to punish Eleazaras for Achamian's and Xin's treatment was thwarted by the necessity to use the School against the Cishaurim. I don't think the Scarlet Spires will wield much influence in the post conquest Three-Seas. The conquest of Shimeh meant the end of both the Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim; it did not (so far) encompass the end of the Mandate, and of any new School Kellhus developes. view post

Re: Erikson Neophyte posted 26 Jun 2008, 01:06 in Literature DiscussionErikson Neophyte by anor277, Didact

Just wanted to add that [i:32dqhfe6]Return of the Crimson Guard[/i:32dqhfe6] by Ian Cameron Esslemont has now been published and will be shortly available from Amazon. (The current hardback edition by a small UK publisher is riddled with proofing errors and a bit pricey.) Both Esslemont and Erikson share (and co-conceived) the world that is depicted in the Malazan novels, and the new novel details events in Quon Tali after Erikson's [i:32dqhfe6]Reaper's Gale[/i:32dqhfe6], and covers the return (duh!) of that infamous mercenary company that opposed Kellanved 100 years previously to their homeland. Further novels by ICE will include places that Erikson has so far ignored (i.e. Assail). One thing I liked about Esslemont's novel was that it explained straight off (or at least attempted to explain) things that Erikson should have explained 25,000 words ago (warrens, decks of dragons, we're still ignorant of ascendancy). view post

Re: Whatever happened to Mallahet? posted 16 Jul 2008, 04:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Whatever happened to Mallahet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":35jif9ct]I think it's clear that Mallahet = Moënghus. The identificating marks are just too specific for me to think otherwise. I think Kellhus, not having heard of Mallahet, could not connect the dots and ended up dangerously underestimating his daddy. He guessed that Moënghus was a weak Cishaurim both magically and politically, when the only reason Moënghus wasn't the Heresiarch was that he had been born a foreigner. We have accustomed to Kellhus always being right about people but his past record doesn't mean he's incapable of being wrong.[/quote:35jif9ct] While I agree that Mallahet's identity certainly was that of Moënghus, most of what you write is directly addressed in the book. As a foreigner, Mallahet did not serve as heresiarch; a more vital factor preventing his leadership of the Cishaurim was his inability to plumb his emotion (or at least his lack of emotion) that prevented him from summoning the "water" that was integral to the practice of Cishaurim sorcery. Moënghus was good at the aspects of sorcery that did not require "passion" or "emotion". [quote:35jif9ct]Also, Moënghus was careful to keep his face disguised beyond darkness and falling water as much as possible, which would have made things difficult for Kellhus. On the other hand, snakes may have bad vision, but their sense of smell is formidable - something Kellhus didn't know or didn't think of. Kellhus's scent could presumably tell Moënghus a lot of what he thought he was hiding. I think Moënghus also recognized skin-spies by their distinctive smell and not by their voices like Kellhus guessed.[/quote:35jif9ct] I don't think we have enough data to speculate. Reptile vision is reportedly inferior to that of birds and mammals, however it extends into the infra-red (to which birds and mammals are insensitive). And of course we are supposing that the Cishaurim sees what his snake familiars see. [quote:35jif9ct]As for how easily Moënghus died, I think that strongly implies that he didn't and instead faked his death. Someone as strong as Mallahet should have been able to put in more of a fight. I think the explanation is that Moënghus was possessing someone else from afar and also keeping up a constant illusion that the person was himself. Kellhus wouldn't have sensed a thing because Moënghus used Cishaurim magic to do it. Moënghus could also have been inserting thoughts into Kellhus's head, something that Kellhus wouldn't have been able to sense either. It really is quite convenient that Kellhus teleported away without staying to look at the face of the corpse and before his daddy actually died. That could be mindcontrol or just arrogance. Either way, it's important to remember that Moënghus invited Kellhus in and obviously gave a lot of thought for planning the meeting.[/quote:35jif9ct] Again this is all speculation. For a start Moënghus did not die very easily. He turned off several skin spies (after?) Kellhus had delivered what was arguably a mortal blow. Moënghus while blind (or at least with his vision impaired by what the snakes see) was evidently a very formidable opponent, as we would expect for someone Dunyain-trained. It made sense for Kellhus to deliver the blow and scarper. As Curethan says Cnaiur certainly recognized Moënghus; he might have been a better eye-witness than Kellhus, whose last memories of his father was that of a boy prior to Moënghus' maiming. [quote:35jif9ct]There is also a quote somewhere that suggests that Moënghus might be able to teleport. Namely, I think it was he who made the unprovoked attack on the Scarlet Spires in order to draw them to the Holy War Maithanet would later incite.[/quote:35jif9ct]If Moënghus had been able to teleport, he would have had no need of his son to take over the 1000 temples; Moënghus could have flitted in and out between churches. In fact, in the next novel I think Kellhus' ability to teleport, to transcend distance, will have to be treated very carefully. Again, Kellhus in the novel clearly describes how the attack on the Scarlet Spires was inspired by a Cishaurim faction that was not in Moënghus' control. Of course (i) Moënghus later exploited the feud between the Spires and the Cishaurim, and of course (ii) Kellhus may be wrong, but it would certainly be an (unacceptable!) [i:35jif9ct]deux ex machina[/i:35jif9ct] if Moënghus appears in the next novels. There would then be too many players, (i) Kellhus, (ii) the Consult, (iii) the Dunyain(?), and (iv) Moënghus. I don't buy it. view post

Re: White vs High ? posted 16 Jul 2008, 04:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhite vs High ? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Arkarrus":1vbqlot0]........................................... In the Dialects table, the High Norsirai speak Aumri-Saugla and descendants languages, while White Norsirai speak Nirsodic and descendants languages. (It would seem that the Dunyain are then mainly High Norsirai, but their origin, as far as I know, remains unclear)[/quote:1vbqlot0] So now we know? This reminds me of an English comic describing the origins of the English civil war. He said that the Roundheads were grim, glowering people who looked like Ross Kemp, and who did not get with the Cavaliers, who were people who looked like Lawrence Llewellyn-Bowen, who were interested in interior design and painting. When the Roundheads and Cavaliers had a fight, naturally the Roundheads won. This is quite funny if one has ever seen much British TV; it's probably meaningless to those who have never lived in Britain and to them I apologize. view post

Re: The No-God posted 16 Jul 2008, 04:07 in The Warrior ProphetThe No-God by anor277, Didact

[quote="Almighty Tallest":1x2g0u0i]......................... So when the No-God arrives, you also have to see this as the Scylvendi would see it. You have to understand that Mog-Pharau is not a divine being that controls destruction and war. He is the divine physical manifestation of [i:1x2g0u0i]nothing[/i:1x2g0u0i]. So where the Sea-God would manifest as ocean waves and dolphins, the No-God manifests as just that: nothing. Remember, for eleven years after his arrival every child was stillborn. That wasn't because of Mog-Pharau being in Earwa. That [i:1x2g0u0i]was[/i:1x2g0u0i] Mog-Pharau. How could a people like the Scylvendi, a people who worship War as a divine thing, not see Mog-Pharau as the perfect manifestation of their own beliefs?[/quote:1x2g0u0i] But can you imagine the reaction of Cnaiur's equivalent at the time upon being presented with his 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th,..dead baby from his wife/slave/rape victim? If the Scylvendi actually suffered the still-birth plague along with the rest of the Three-Seas, it should have provoked a major religious rethink. view post

Re: Whatever happened to Mallahet? posted 16 Jul 2008, 11:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Whatever happened to Mallahet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="lfex":28dm7r3u][quote="anor277":28dm7r3u] If Moënghus had been able to teleport, he would have had no need of his son to take over the 1000 temples; Moënghus could have flitted in and out between churches. In fact, in the next novel I think Kellhus' ability to teleport, to transcend distance, will have to be treated very carefully. [/quote:28dm7r3u] Do we know how long is the reach of Kellhus's teleportation ability? Could he teleport from Shimeh to Ishual and back, or is it restricted to far shorter distances? I agree that the former possibility would create many difficulties with the plot, since if Kellhus could appear anytime at any place, he could become truly unstoppable.[/quote:28dm7r3u] We know nothing of Kellhus' ability to teleport, only that he developed it [i:28dm7r3u]de novo[/i:28dm7r3u] and that it involved the use of a second inutteral (whatever this is). Obviously there are going to be limits to its use, and again this is going to require careful handling if its existence is going to be "realistic". [quote="Curethan":28dm7r3u]Back on topic, my original question was related to the fact that Mallahet was described as being both a notorious and powerful Cishaurim, second only to the heresiarch, which is the only thing that runs contrary to him being easily identified as Moenghus. Also, what the heck was he doing running messages if it was Mo? [quote="anor277":28dm7r3u]Again, Kellhus in the novel clearly describes how the attack on the Scarlet Spires was inspired by a Cishaurim faction that was not in Moënghus' control.[/quote:28dm7r3u] I don't remember this, can you please eloborate? I think that the assasination is what is prompting speculation that Mo could also teleport (which I think would be highly unlikely because I believe it requires knowledge of the Gnosis). Speaking of which I don't think it would mean Mo would've been able to infiltrate the 1000 temples himself because he still wouldn't have enough time to do so - being able to move instantly doesn't add any hours to your day [/quote:28dm7r3u] Being able to move instantly would in fact add many hours to my day; anyway, as you say, it is highly unlikely that Mo had any such ability; it was Kellhus' gnostic [i:28dm7r3u]tour de force[/i:28dm7r3u] while he was still a novice. Mo, as far as we know, had to initiate contact with Kellhus. From the earliest part of TDtCB we were aware that Mo [i:28dm7r3u]had[/i:28dm7r3u] summoned K to Shimeh and he went to extraordinary lengths to do so, the meeting was the conclusion. No doubt Moënghus recognized that a meeting with his son would be extraordinarily dangerous (the Dunyain had sent Kellhus as an assassin and Mo could have anticipated this); there remained the possibility that Kellhus could have committed himself to Mo's plans or even that Mo might have assassinated Kellhus and assumed control of the Tusk crusaders. As to the attack on the Scarlet Spires, from memory it was discussed in that very meeting between Kellhus and Moënghus. Moënghus personality, while formidable, did not operate at a distance. His colleagues among the Cishaurim reagarded his indifferent power as a water bearer as a curse from God and a weakness. view post

Re: Whatever happened to Mallahet? posted 16 Jul 2008, 22:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Whatever happened to Mallahet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":h1s4hlt6][quote="TDTCB":h1s4hlt6]Xerius sensed the Grandmaster stiffen next to him. "Emperor," the sorcerer murmured, "you must leave at once. If this is truly Mallahet, then you're in grave danger. We all are!" Mallahet... He had heard that name before, in one of Skeaös' briefings. The one whose arms were scarred like a Scylvendi. "So three [Imperial Saik sorcerers] are not enough," Xerius replied, inexplicably heartened by his Grandmaster's fear. "Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And only then because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of the Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!"[/quote:h1s4hlt6] My point is, [b:h1s4hlt6]Moënghus is actually extremely strong in the Water.[/b:h1s4hlt6] As traditional enemies the Nansur and the Kianene have a lot of reason to keep themselves up-to-date on each other. Achamian was an outsider to their conflict, and while he was good at general knowledge he had had no reason to concentrate on learning about the internal politics of the Cishaurim. As Kellhus learned from Achamian, not Cememketri, he might not have heard about the power of Mallahet and what Mallahet looked like. But he didn't, and so his guesses about Moënghus at their final confrontation were that much less accurate. About teleportation, that is something Kellhus figured out after brief study. Moënghus has had decades to make up new spells. There is nothing that says that teleportation is a Gnosis-only thing. Indeed, Kellhus developed his teleportation based on the Cants of Calling, and all three branches of magic have some form of long-distance communication.[/quote:h1s4hlt6] Moënghus was strong in those aspects of Cishaurim sorcery that required reason and intellect (and therefore had a formidable reputation amongst his peers and enemies); in those that required passion and emotion he was indifferent and his political base suffered because of it. This is [i:h1s4hlt6]explicitly[/i:h1s4hlt6] stated in the colloquy between Moënghus and Kellhus late in TTT. Moënghus would have undoubtedly been more powerful as an anagnostic or gnostic sorceror in which practice reason was (apparently) an asset. If you think that this is wrong, fine, but please read that passage again. I don't have the books to read so you'll have to find it yourself. There remains no evidence to support the fact that Moënghus had developed teleportation. Why go to the trouble of summoning Kellhus across the world, with all its attendant risks, if he could transcend distance? ([i:h1s4hlt6]Edited to add[/i:h1s4hlt6]): In this last conversation between Kellhus and Moënghus it is revealed that the effort required by Moënghus to contact Ishual "almost broke him", so at least here there was a limit to the extent of sorcerous power. Earlier Achamian and Kellhus had speculated on the primacy of emotion, of passion in the practice of Cishaurim sorcery. Moënghus, as a Dunyain, had repressed his emotions and passion to the point of non-existence and so was an indifferent practitioner of the Pskuhe. view post

Re: Whatever happened to Mallahet? posted 17 Jul 2008, 00:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Whatever happened to Mallahet? by anor277, Didact

There is further discussion on the nature of Cishaurim sorcery in the [i:ooacmkme]Ax the author[/i:ooacmkme] section, [url:ooacmkme][/url:ooacmkme]. Mind you, Scott did not contribute to this discussion. view post

Re: Whatever happened to Mallahet? posted 17 Jul 2008, 23:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Whatever happened to Mallahet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":24pd5h2w]Kellhus is not omniscient. In his discussion with his father he [b:24pd5h2w]guessed[/b:24pd5h2w] a lot of things and Moënghus didn't say if he was correct or not. Kellhus's estimations of Moënghus's strength could have been entirely wrong while Moënghus smiled inwardly about how he had managed to mislead his enemy into underestimating him. Kellhus thought that the Dûnyain had bred themselves free from most passion, but it could also be that they had simply became masters at repressing themselves, while their passions remained bottled up inside of them. For all his insight, Kellhus isn't good at questioning himself and his assumptions. He is even proud of having been Conditioned![/quote:24pd5h2w] Everything you say [i:24pd5h2w]could[/i:24pd5h2w] be true. Kellhus, arch-manipulator and exquisite student of humanity, [i:24pd5h2w]might[/i:24pd5h2w] have been mistaken. Moënghus [i:24pd5h2w]might[/i:24pd5h2w] have been manipulating Kellhus and had developed the Psukhe to such an extent that teleport was possible and he simply flitted out of the cave he was in to seek (heroic!) first aid elsewhere. For all we know Moënghus or Kellhus [i:24pd5h2w]might[/i:24pd5h2w] have been replaced by an ensoulled skin spy. The only thing wrong with all these scenarios is that there is precisely no evidence to support them. We must accept what the novels present in reasonably good faith. [quote:24pd5h2w]By the way, can someone please point me to the scene where Eleäzaras thinks about the Cishaurim attack on the Scarlet Spires that killed the formed Grandmaster? I can't remember where it was.[/quote:24pd5h2w] Again, I don't have the books to hand, but try the aftermath to the battle of Mengedda in WP. Eleäzaras and Iyokus survey the battleground and almost cackle with glee that 10-20 Cishaurim effectives had been turned off by mundane means, i.e. without the (risky) intervention of any Spires men. I think that they (or one of them) reminisce about the initial attack by the Cishaurim and again wonder at the silence of Cishaurim sorcery. (Let me know if I'm wrong.) view post

Re: Whatever happened to Mallahet? posted 17 Jul 2008, 23:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Whatever happened to Mallahet? by anor277, Didact

Just [i:2ceuvuck]apropos[/i:2ceuvuck] of the discussion and the difference between Anagnostic/Gnostic and Cishaurim sorcery (why the latter is silent in practice), I find this interesting remark by Scott on the ask the author threads, [url:2ceuvuck][/url:2ceuvuck]. I won't quote the passage here because some regard authors' remarks as spoilers, but it differentiates the "Passion of God" from the "Thought of God", which Gnostic and Cishaurim sorcery respectively recall. view post

Re: Whatever happened to Mallahet? posted 18 Jul 2008, 02:07 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Whatever happened to Mallahet? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":1j4wkosf]The scene with Eleäzaras after Mengedda isn't the one... I've noticed that Bakker is one of the harder authors to find specific quotes from. I think it's the frequent POV changes and opaque chapter titles along with the amount of internal action that is not particularly dependent on plot or location and therefore doesn't develop memory connections to such in my mind.[/quote:1j4wkosf] Ah well, it must be somewhere. And from memory it did seem that the Cishaurim assassins had "simply" teleported into the Scarlet Spires premises. But I still maintain that Kellhus' use of teleportation was absolutely original. view post

Re: Erikson Neophyte posted 05 Aug 2008, 02:08 in Literature DiscussionErikson Neophyte by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":2vh01r1f]There are many things about these books that annoy me. Too many characters, that run the gamut from being ridiculously overpowered, amazingly prescient and unbelievably, smugly clever to incredibly similar, boring and dim. Themes almost reach critical mass. Too many divergent plotlines. Nevertheless, I enjoy the books, and every one of the things that pisses me off about them is also one of the things I enjoy. :D A guilty pleasure.[/quote:2vh01r1f] Just rebumped this thread because Erikson's latest, [i:2vh01r1f]Toll the Hounds[/i:2vh01r1f], has been recently released. While it is undoubtedly exciting (in places) and enjoyable it epitomizes the criticisms that Curethan makes above. There are just so many plotlines in an (approx.) 1000 page novel; it's a case of too many hats and not enough rabbits. And the multiple plotlines are resolved by omission: many of the interesting developments are ignored and are just not resolved in the novel. As far as we know the conclusions will not be supplied by Erikson. Curiously, the consensus of opinion on the Malazan boards is that TtH is excellent. For mine, the earlier novels, [i:2vh01r1f]Deadhouse Gates[/i:2vh01r1f], [i:2vh01r1f]Memories of Ice[/i:2vh01r1f] were quite superior. And note that we don't know much more about the Malazan world re sorcery and warrens and ascendants and timelines now after 8 novels than we did after 2 or 3. The revelations have been a long time coming and I don't think they'll ever come now. view post

Re: Re: posted 11 Aug 2008, 00:08 in Literature Discussionabercrombie by anor277, Didact

[quote="Chirios":dsnryjpp] I disagree. Ferro was obsessed with her own vengeance, Glokta was a pawn the whole time, being pushed around by two uncaring masters, only managing to get the better on the second because the first gave him the opportunity, Tolomei was a slave and as such rarely made her own decisions; and the King was suffering from old age and could barely remember where he was half the time.[/quote:dsnryjpp] You are entitled to disagree. The individual of whom we are talking was uniquely vulnerable and he was not omnipotent (he spent part of the 2nd novel comatose in a wagon surrounded by enemies). Glotka had also speculated on loosening his control, and the king (Jezal, not the dodderer from whom he inherited the throne) could have acted against him - the arch manipulator certainly deserved a knife in the back. view post

Re: Why was Khellus.... posted 11 Aug 2008, 00:08 in Author Q &amp; AWhy was Khellus.... by anor277, Didact

As to the Non Men practice of sorcery, it appears to be moribund - developed up to a point and then advances were abandoned. The Non Men were also under a terrible curse; their insularity would not have encouraged research into sorcery. In the modern Three Seas, sorcery itself also does not seem to be amenable to research and investigation. While it is true that the Scarlet Spires "researched" diabolism, the Scarlet Spires, the Saik, etc. were unable to rival or reproduce Gnostic sorcery that was over 5000 years old. The only sorcerous advance in that time was due to the Cishaurim, and again their sorcery was not understood but simply practised. PS Scott does not frequent these boards anymore. view post

Re: abercrombie posted 12 Aug 2008, 11:08 in Literature Discussionabercrombie by anor277, Didact

@PP, I thought the first and second novels were the strongest, and the third a bit lightweight. But there is no accounting for taste (and I don't claim to have good taste!). view post

Re: The metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts posted 10 Nov 2008, 23:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts by anor277, Didact

[quote="Thorsten":22a7wo1m] This is actually a good point. It's true that the No-God is in some places described as being 'summoned'. I also remember a reference where it is said that he first 'drew breath'. The question is - should we take these literally? It is made abundantly clear that no one (except the Consult, and they don't tell) really knows what the No-God is or how he appeared. Thus, I took these references as figures of speech - the sorcerers don't really know how the No-God appeared, thus they imagine he was summoned. They don't know what event marked his coming first, so they say he drew breath.[/quote:22a7wo1m] Thorsten, what you have written is well-argued and makes a lot of sense, and it took me some time to digest it (apart from the analogies to quantum mechanics; one can make better analogies than drawing them from abstruse forms of wave and matrix equations that are only approachable with a more symbolic language than English). I agree with you regarding the ignorance of the No-God on the part of the Three-Seas sorcerors and churchmen. They simply have no conception of what it is - Kellhus had a conversation with Achamian in TWP or earlier precisely on the No-God's identity, and all Achamian could do was to relate the horror of His presence. [quote:22a7wo1m]As for the Daimos, the reason I did not include it in the list is that the list is of different principles underlying sorcery, whereas the Daimos seems to be a description of a result. Thus, the way I understood it, you could use the Anagogis or the Gnosis to summon, it's just a particular application of a metaphysics, not a metaphysics in itself. Of course, I may be wrong here, and I have to look into this in a bit more detail to make sure.[/quote:22a7wo1m]Agreed on your take here as well. Scott mentioned somewhere that the Gnosis could summon [i:22a7wo1m]agencies[/i:22a7wo1m] (whatever these are); but clearly Iyokus' summonings derived from the Anagostic sorcery. The risk to the summoner is all too apparent. view post

Re: The Judging Eye posted 21 Jan 2009, 01:01 in The Judging EyeThe Judging Eye by anor277, Didact

Just saw [i:g6glein8]The Judging Eye[/i:g6glein8] in a local Sydney bookshop for the bargain price of 29-80 AUD. Since the price is about 18 lbs with postage this is one time that I shouldn't have ordered from Amazon - my copy should arrive sometime next week. view post

Re: The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 26 Jan 2009, 23:01 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by anor277, Didact

[quote="Chirios":2hgm91q2].................But then comes the Judging Eye. The Judging Eye apparently proves that ALL of these beliefs are true.............sorcerers ARE damned. So, apparently, in the universe of PON, regardless of who you are, if you practice magic, you're evil. This is fact. ............[/quote:2hgm91q2] This is not yet an established fact. Mimara focused the Judging Eye (whatever this is!) on Achamian, a jealous old recluse; Achamian might indeed be damned. She did not focus the Judging Eye on Incariol, or her step-father, or her siblings. While Achamian might indeed be damned, it does not follow that other sorcerors are damned too. view post

Re: *Spoilers* Traveller's identity posted 27 Jan 2009, 01:01 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Traveller's identity by anor277, Didact

Just my 2 cents regarding traveller's idea. Achamian came to the conclusion that Kellhus [i:2zb3uh2w]had[/i:2zb3uh2w] sent Mimara. Alternatively, we know that the murderous Celmomas had managed to precipitate Mimara's flight from Momenn in order to isolate Esmenet (i.e. Kellhus didn't send Mimara, Celmomas did). As to why Kellhus should want Achamian go on a wild and dangerous goosechase is also beyond me. It appears likely that Achamian is again a stalking horse for the Consult, some member of the Skin Eaters (perhaps Kosoter himself - he may have been replaced fairly recently) is a Consult agent, and Incariol is quite possibly Mekeritrig. Both the Consult and Achamian want to know about Kellhus' origins, and Achamian's hiring of the scalpers is the means to this ends. Just on the topic of the scalpers. I wonder how much of the idea stems from Wild West tales of Indian scalp hunters (those who hunted native Indians to collect a bounty paid by the US or Mexican govts; those who collected Apache scalps must have been brutal men indeed)? Is there an echo of Cormac McCarthy's [i:2zb3uh2w]Blood Meridian[/i:2zb3uh2w] in the Scalpoi. We know that Scott was definitely impressed by McCarthy's novels. view post

SPOILERS: Translocation posted 27 Jan 2009, 02:01 in The Judging EyeSPOILERS: Translocation by anor277, Didact

One of Kellhus' most impressive [i:3qgq8myp]tour de force[/i:3qgq8myp] in [i:3qgq8myp]The Thousandfold Thought[/i:3qgq8myp] was his use of the Gnosis to translocate himself, to transcend distance. In [i:3qgq8myp]The Judging Eye[/i:3qgq8myp] we finally learn the limits of translocation when Kellhus flits back to Mommen to confront Sharacinth (spelling?, Yatwer's mother superior). Apparently Kellhus ability to translocate is limited to (i) horizon to horizon distance, (ii) Kellhus may only translocate to places with which he is familiar. As regards horizon to horizon distance, I don't know how literally to take what is meant. Say Kellhus stands 2m tall, this gives him a horizon to horizon distance of about 10 km at sea level. The horizon to horizon distance would be considerably greater if Kellhus were standing on top of a mountain or the walls of Sakarpus (maybe up to 100 km?). In any case it is clear that Kellhus ability to translocate is severely restricted (he had to make the jump from the Istyuli plain to Momenn by multiple horizon to horizon jumps). Also significant was the fact that after he made the jump(s), Kellhus was exhausted. (Esemenet had to help him to bed; practise of translocation over so long a distance must be extremely arduous). It is probably also significant (this was implied but not stated outright) that only Kellhus has the ability to translocate. Evidently the ability is beyond his natural daughter, as well as the other mages of the Three Seas (of course maybe Kellhus has not deigned to teach anyone the trick). In any event, while Kellhus ability to translocate is certainly god-like, his ability does not make him omnipotent. view post

Re: The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 28 Jan 2009, 22:01 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by anor277, Didact

[quote="professor plum":2vm79od6]I seem to recall her seeing the same damnation in Cleric. Will try to dig up a quote later.[/quote:2vm79od6] See page 335 and following (Orbit, TPB, 2009) in which Mimara first uses the judging eye. She detects some wrongness about Incariol, just as she does about Achamian. Of course, we really need to see the Judging Eye used on Kellhus, or a Cishaurim, or another ranking sorceror. view post

Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- posted 31 Jan 2009, 04:01 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- by anor277, Didact

It was my impression that the demon heads Kellhus sports on his belt were those of skin spies. Certainly the skin spies are absolutely terrifying (Kellhus no doubt animates them) but they are not demonic. view post

Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- posted 03 Feb 2009, 22:02 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":2t2aixbx][quote="Cynical Cat":2t2aixbx]Having Demon heads on his belt doesn't mean Kelhus has been Outside.[/quote:2t2aixbx] Which was my point. I should go back and look at the end of TTT to see if we saw what happened to a Demon after it was killed in Earwa.[/quote:2t2aixbx] As I recall, at the end of [i:2t2aixbx]TTT[/i:2t2aixbx] a demon that had been turned off by a chorae (for instance by the Cishaurim) simply ceased to exist. Of course, Achamian only managed to drive off the demons that attacked him in Iotiath and Shimeh. I think that somewhere in the present novel, it is mentioned that the [i:2t2aixbx]physical body[/i:2t2aixbx] of a demon (whatever this is) when struck by a chorae would be destroyed but I don't have the page number. view post

Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- posted 05 Feb 2009, 19:02 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- by anor277, Didact

I was trying to look for the Ciphrang reference as well. As you say, if the reference was made by say Sorweel, an ignorant shit herder who'd seen neither demon nor skin spy, then we can't put too much credence in the reference. regarding the effect that chorae has on actual demons, i.e. [i:g12192vf]de jure[/i:g12192vf] Ciphrang, see p 413 [i:g12192vf]The Judging Eye[/i:g12192vf] Orbit TPB 2009, where Achamian says that chorae destroys the [i:g12192vf]corporeal form[/i:g12192vf] of the Ciphrang, whatever this means. Of course, at least Achamian is a bit of an authority on Ciphrang and matters arcane. view post

Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- posted 06 Feb 2009, 23:02 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- by anor277, Didact

@Curethan; settle down dude. If you can't disagree without rancour then perhaps we should not discuss this; it's a minor point. view post

Re: Would you... posted 16 Feb 2009, 01:02 in The Judging EyeWould you... by anor277, Didact

[quote="professor plum":35qwgbth]I'd join the Consult. I want bat wings![/quote:35qwgbth] Never mind bat wings, I think I'd join the Consult just for the sex. Of course the Consult was always composed of sorcerors who wanted to avoid damnation view post

Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- posted 23 Feb 2009, 04:02 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -&lt;SPOILERS&gt;- by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mithfânion":3l0bx17o]...................... Will be interesting to see that play out in book 2. The only thing that makes me unsure it is Sorweel is what went before, the vague sections about a White Luck Warrior being born somewhere, the strange ritual with Psatma etc. I didn't get what that was all about, and Sorweel just seems like a far more plausible set-up as the White Luck. We already know him now, he has been establised as a character, and at the end we find out he is Yatwer's.[/quote:3l0bx17o] Sorweel has certainly been blessed by Yatwer, however, he seems so far to be a free agent, free enough to decide on whether the Ordeal succeeds or fails (and as Sakarpus is on the supply line, Sorweel's influence may be decisive). As far as the White Luck warrior is concerned it seems that this individual will plague Esmenet and not Kellhus, i.e. the White Luck warrior is an insurgent of the Three-Seas. I couldn't fathom the granny-banging passage with Psatma either. view post

Re: Spoiler: Kelmonas' Voice posted 23 Feb 2009, 04:02 in The Judging EyeSpoiler: Kelmonas' Voice by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mithfânion":n6715pcq]............................................................................................................................................... 3) Kelmomas is a skin spy. Yes, a construct actually born of Esmenet, but still a skin spy. In corroboartion of this I made a link between Kelmomas killing Sharacinth and Maithanet consequently saying this might well have been the work of a skin spy. Maithanet never says things lightly, and usually he is correct. This is not proof of course that Kelmomas is a new sort of skin spy, but he might be. .......................[/quote:n6715pcq] The mechanics of the Consult getting Kellhus and Esmenet to conceive and deliver skin spy reminds me of John Varley's classic [i:n6715pcq]Titan[/i:n6715pcq] series of novels, which I read a long time ago. In [i:n6715pcq]Titan[/i:n6715pcq] a heavenly body (i.e. a large, animate satellite, which may also have been a god, and on which lived several genetically engineered races) managed to conceal a spy [i:n6715pcq]in[/i:n6715pcq] the actual body of the female protagonist (she was an astronaut who was leading a bloody rebellion against the heavenly body; the pint size spy was also male, which gave the female rebel some concern). Anyway, the idea of Kelmomas as a skin spy or Consult artefact is a bit far-fetched. Kelmomas is clearly a sociopath (even given the standards of the Three Seas), and it is quite arguable that the voice he hears is part of his disorder. view post

Re: *Spoilers* Traveller's identity posted 26 Feb 2009, 02:02 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Traveller's identity by anor277, Didact

Just regarding the last point, Non-men physiognomy (is that how you spell it?) is apparently indecipherable to mortals. Achamian and Mimara themselves observe this when Cleric "taunts" the statue of Cujara Cinmoi (Achamian only knew it was his likeness because of a helpful inscription). The point is while Seswatha (and Achamian) might indeed be acquainted with Mekeritrig, unless the Non-man declares himself no-one (save maybe for another Non-man) is going to now for sure who he is. And maybe even Mekeritrig himself has forgotten his identity. view post

Re: *Spoilers* Traveller's identity posted 02 Mar 2009, 06:03 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Traveller's identity by anor277, Didact

@Razorsmile; Cleric as Judge Holden? But can the Non-man dance? The novel by McCarthy was truly as grim and as absorbing as any fantasy novel, including the one I should be discussing. I anticipated that the Scarlet Spires would be relegated to the position of a minor school in the Empire. The Cishaurim had wiped out [i:3k0rrcu4]all[/i:3k0rrcu4] their effectives at Shimeh (save Iyokus) and it was reasonable to assume the School was broken; not so, evidently they left an organisation behind that managed to rebuild. No doubt after 20 years there were just too many details to cover in a 500 page novel, i.e. the conquest of the Three Seas, Kellhus heirs, the new religion with Kellhus as its god, the Ordeal itself. One thing I would like to see mentioned soon is the present size of the Mandate; it was 50-60 sorcerors of rank pre-Kellhus according to the glossary; now as the preeminent school and divinely-favoured school it might recruit more widely. Like you I also suspect one of the Skin Eaters to be a Skin-spy: Soma, the one who courted Mimara is a prime suspect view post

Re: Dunyain machinations posted 03 Mar 2009, 03:03 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

It's hard to predict of course. It's entirely conceivable that the Dunyain play no further part in the novels. As you say, the Dunyain no doubt considered the risk inherent in despatching Kellhus to the outside world. But Kellhus mission as an assassin was a sort of zero-sum game as regards the Dunyain. That is Moenghus had threatened Ishual's isolation (by sending the dreams that affected more than one Dunyain); Moenghus "demanded" that the Dunyain send his son. The Dunyain (apparently anxious to preserve their isolation) did indeed comply and sent Moenghus his son, but Kellhus was apparently sent as an assassin. Problem solved for the Dunyain? Perhaps, of course the Dunyain subsequently turned off all of the other individuals within Ishual capable of receiving Moenghus' dreams (i.e. all of them potential sorcerors). This may leave them uniquely vulnerable to the Consult or Kellhus or even dotardly Achamian, should any of these parties reach Ishual. There are plots within plots within plots here, and I certainly can't untangle them. I do think, however, that the one over-riding concern of the Dunyain is to preserve their isolation and to keep the outside world at a far remove. On the other hand, maybe Kellhus himself wants to keep away from Ishual (and from nearby Atrithau) in order to keep the story he told about himself straight. view post

Re: *Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 03 Mar 2009, 05:03 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by anor277, Didact

[quote="Will":1anw4p59]............................Psatma's knows Yatwer exists because she's met her. There's nothing religious about that. She obeys her deity as any rational being would. The Gods of this world are terrifyingly powerful, Yatwer's manifestations are extremely frightening. She also blesses and assists her worshippers. Psatma's actions have nothing of religion about them. Her boss gives her a gig, she gets paid, she does it. .............[/quote:1anw4p59] That's the problem when a [i:1anw4p59]deus ex machina[/i:1anw4p59] actually comes out of the machine. Psatma's actions are indeed rational and holy with respect to her deity; but is her deity moral and rational in opposing Kellhus? I see the same sort of moral problems in Erikson's novels, where Gods are actually manifest and actively intervene on the mortal plane. The problem is with such a god (of chance or luck or of disease etc.) is what happens when a worshipper loses say a child to misadventure or a horrible disease. The worshipper would (and should) take steps to [i:1anw4p59]punish[/i:1anw4p59] their god, to call them to account. Maybe later we'll see Kellhus (or someone) grab Yatwer by the balls and squeeze hard (yes I know Yatwer's a female principle). view post

Re: Dunyain machinations posted 05 Mar 2009, 05:03 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":3g3a0wmv]........................... PS I'm sure Baker talked about more dunyain, including a female dunyain too? I can't recall clearly.[/quote:3g3a0wmv] Normally, I go out of my way to avoid spoilers, but I remember this too. A female Dunyain was supposed to accompany Achamian(?) Maybe the story was not mature at that point, but we'll see soon enough. view post

Re: Dunyain machinations posted 05 Mar 2009, 05:03 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mithfânion":2hytf7ns]Anor [quote:2hytf7ns]It's entirely conceivable that the Dunyain play no further part in the novels[/quote:2hytf7ns] I don't think that's likely at all, given the current plotlines. Before we might just have speculated that Aspect Emperor and the books afterward would perhaps reveal to us in full, the Dunyain. Now that we have seen TJE, we know that we will most likley meet them.[/quote:2hytf7ns] And what if Achamian finally gets to Ishual and finds that the Consult has preceded him? Achamian would find Ishual a smoking ruin; despite Dunyain martial prowess they would be bewildered by and helpless against sorcery. In that case of course maybe the Consult would keep a few Dunyain slaves to direct their research programmes. view post

Re: Dunyain machinations posted 06 Mar 2009, 04:03 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

@Will, I don't recall that Ishual was built on anarcane ground. Atrithau ceertainly was, but there is another good reason for Kellhus to avoid the place (he is ostensibly its prince). Regarding the defence of Ishual, while I have no doubt that the remaining Dunyain could account for a Sranc horde, they would be helpless against any sorceror. The notion of a Dunyain as a slave has in fact been visited in the novel before. Moenghus was a "slave" of both the Sranc and the Scylvendi. Moenghus certainly managed to subvert that Scylvendi tribe. view post

Re: Complaint to author posted 13 Mar 2009, 04:03 in General DiscusssionComplaint to author by anor277, Didact

As I recall that part of Kellhus' training, the Pragma was waiting with a knife to turn Kellhus off if he failed to apprehend the principle of the logos (the Pragma might have killed quite a few indifferent students this way). The opening poster was lucky that no Dunyain was there to witness his/her failure; he or she might have met an untimely end otherwise. view post

Re: Dunyain machinations posted 16 Mar 2009, 03:03 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

[quote="srancchieftan":2fnij96u]........................@Anor277 You're forgetting that Kellhus has already been revealed as a prince of nothing in TWP. It is well known to anyone who was at Caraskand, when Kellhus was ordered to die on the circumference. The "official" reason he was ordered to be executed was because he posed as a prophet and because he posed as a cast noble. This is well known throughout the three seas. No one cared about this after he survived because then they beleived he was a prophet, leading the holy war to victory also didnt hurt. This is not a problem for Kellhus anymore. Kellhus doesnt have to worry about Attrithau. However he certainly has to worry about Ishual, if other people find out about the Dunyain then they'll find out that Kellhus is not a god, like he claims.[/quote:2fnij96u] We'll have to agree to differ here. The men of the Tusk convicted Kellhus on "trumped-up" charges at Caraskarand. That Kellhus came down from the circumfix and led the now penitent men of the Tusk to victory after victory was a refutation of those charges. I suspect that a few of Kellhus' circle even now might entertain doubts if the Ordeal passed through Atrithau and that city refused to acknowledge Kellhus' pretend lineage. It's one problem that Kellhus can ignore simply by avoiding Atrithau. Ishual is also another potential problem he can ignore, simply for the reason that as far as we know the Dunyain want nothing to do with the rest of the world. view post

Re: *Spoilers* Traveller's identity posted 01 Apr 2009, 00:04 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Traveller's identity by anor277, Didact

[quote="kidten":n7wcasd4]If Kellhus sleeps then he too has Seswatha's dreams. Most likely the same dreams Achamian is having. He would know Achamian's obsession and use it to his advantage. Maybe Kellhus sent an agent, a caste-noble from Nilnamesh named Somandutta, to use Achamian in helping him find The Heron Spear(?). The weapon that initially took out the No-God in the First Apocalypse. Or maybe that's what Mimara is for. It could be hidden in the coffers along with the map to Ishual. This way Kellhus can focus on The Great Ordeal.[/quote:n7wcasd4]I grant that there may be agents of Kellhus or the Consult in Achamian's party, but as far as we know, Kellhus is not an initiate of the Mandate. He practises the Gnosis, and probably has the Mandate quorum wound round his little finger, and he has also probably learnt all the Mandate arcana (and of course expanded it); but as the apparent fulfillment of Celmomas' prophecy he has not undergone Mandate initiation the way that Achamian or Eskeles or Inrau or whomever has. His sleep, therefore, would remain free of dreams. I also think that the point of Achamian's new series of dreams were to show that he was transcending Seswatha's vision (witness his (A's) shock when he viewed the destruction of Sauglish in the [i:n7wcasd4]absence[/i:n7wcasd4] of Seswatha). Mimara (?) I think shrewdly described Achamian as a prophet of the past. Achamian's jealous obsession has now steered his vision to that part of history that can explain Kellhus' origin. His vision of the past is now greater than Seswatha's experience, and consequently greater than any of his ex-Mandate colleagues. How to explain this, I don't know. As regards the Heron Spear, one of the glossaries in TTT related that it was taken by the Scylvendi in the sack of Cenei in near antiquity. It is probably irretrievably lost. Besides that the Heron Spear is a technological device. How long could it function without maitenance or repair? A year, maybe; 1000 years, almost certainly not. view post

The Doomed Ordeal? posted 01 Apr 2009, 22:04 in The Judging EyeThe Doomed Ordeal? by anor277, Didact

When Zsoronga befriends Sorweel on the march, he relates the first contact between Zeüm and the Aspect Emperor. The Emperor's men refortify Auvengishei (spelling?), the traditional fortress between Zeüm and the Three Seas, and Kellhus sends three suicides as emissaries to the Zeüm potentate (Zsoronga's father). Zsoronga shrewdly opines that Kellhus [i:2bb569oe]wanted[/i:2bb569oe] Zeüm to declare war; the which would have ended in total ruin for the Zeümi (against the Mandate and Kellhus' fanatical, veteran armies). So maybe Zeüm did figure in Kellhus plans, but the Zeüm were careful to give no cause for invasion. As regards the timeline of the Great Ordeal, Kellhus and his successors do not have generations to deal with Golgotterath. The No-God may be reactivated in the next few years (5-10?). While the Ordeal will no doubt suffer terrible privations and catastrophe, I think the plan is to invest Golgotterath [i:2bb569oe]before[/i:2bb569oe] the start of winter. The idea that the North will be repopulated in the meantime is a good one. PS I wonder how differently Zeüm and Zeum are pronounced, and if I'd notice any difference? view post

Re: *Spoilers* Traveller's identity posted 02 Apr 2009, 00:04 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Traveller's identity by anor277, Didact

[quote="kidten":2phnsbar]I thought that the dreams came with Gnosis. ............[/quote:2phnsbar]Just on this point, initiation into the Mandate involves "touching" Seswatha's heart (yuck) and then you are doomed with his visions of the past. (Evidently, Seswatha's mortal remains are venerated and put to a practical use.) Besides, as far as we know, Consult sorcerors (the successors to the Maengecca School oultawed by the Kunuiri high kings) practise Gnostic sorcery, so do the Non-Men. [quote:2phnsbar] ........................As for the Heron Spear, why would Scott spend so much time with those dreams of searching for it in TTT? I never really saw it as filler and feel like it is of importance for the Second Apocolypse (if it ever happens).[/quote:2phnsbar]We'll see if the Heron Spear makes an appearance. If it is discovered I'll bet that the thing needs a recharge, and new cables and switches. view post

Re: The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 03 Apr 2009, 08:04 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by anor277, Didact

[quote="Nonman or Astro Man?":3soz4xrb]I don't know if this has been covered before, I'm new to the forums, but I am wondering about Mandate sorcerers damnation, in that whose damnation is Mimara seeing, Akka's(or any other Mandate sorcerer) or Seswatha's? I find it interesting that all sorcerers are damned, but that places (Slave Pits) and whole peoples like the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas can seen with the Judging Eye as damned as well. Also, is Mimara seeing Akka's sorcerous damnation, or damnation for something else entirely? Thanks in advance.[/quote:3soz4xrb] As far as we know, sorcerous damnation is not unique to the Mandati; the Spires, the Saik etc all bore the sorcerous mark that betokened damnation (but is a Cishaurim damned?). Mimara's Judging eye did not focus on the Seswatha within Achamian but on Achamian himself (note that in the earlier novels Consult sorcerors and skin spies could sense the Seswatha within Mandati initiates). As regards whether Achamian is damned for something else, that's another matter entirely. Incariol (whom Mimara also perceived as damned) was a pretty sorry son of a bitch as well (like all the other Nonmen). view post

Re: Swayal Sisterhood posted 04 Apr 2009, 22:04 in The Judging EyeSwayal Sisterhood by anor277, Didact

Are we sure that the Swayal Compact is Anagogic? The only glimpse we had of a Swayal witch (apart from Serwa) was the spy who had infiltrated Yatwer's matriarchs (p 114 [i:2ylm9ba0]TJE[/i:2ylm9ba0] Orbit TPB, and she did not summon analogies, she was swiftly turned off by a chorae in fact). Maybe Kellhus used Mandate instructors to give the school a kick start. It has already been mentioned in the novels that the Mandate were obliged to share their knowledge in the event of a 2nd apocalypse. And just regarding sorcerors' sexuality, we already know that there were a lot of wicked old buggers in all the schools. view post

Re: The Doomed Ordeal? posted 06 Apr 2009, 05:04 in The Judging EyeThe Doomed Ordeal? by anor277, Didact

I must agree that Kellhus really wants to destroy Golgotterath. His Ordeal has (i) hamstrung the Three Seas economy for decades, (ii) risked serious disaffection at home (riots and insurrection in the absence of effective control by imperial troops and the Schools), and (iii) has the apparent support of his brother Maithanet, the only other individual who might see through Kellhus' agenda. It would be a serious eye-opener if the Ordeal has any other motive than the ostensible one. view post

Re: Something odd about Gin'yursis posted 29 Apr 2009, 08:04 in The Judging EyeSomething odd about Gin'yursis by anor277, Didact

I seem to recall that the ghostly non-man king did not actually verbalize; he "possessed" the vocal chords of the semi-conscious members of the party. If so, maybe the unwitting speakers provided the translation. view post

Re: Maithanet posted 29 Apr 2009, 20:04 in The Judging EyeMaithanet by anor277, Didact

[quote="Boblin":249xzqfa]What, if anything, is known about Maithanent's mother? I can't recall her being mentioned anywhere, either in the books or here.[/quote:249xzqfa]As I recall, pretty much nothing is known of Maithanet's mother. I [i:249xzqfa]assume[/i:249xzqfa] that she was a Kianene women whom Moenghus had met shortly after he'd reached Kian. Given what happened to Cnaiür's mother (beaten to death after she bore Maithanent's bastard) she probably was superfluous after she bore the future Shriah. Of course, given what we know of Dunyain genetics (mentally acute and physically adept but drawn from a very small gene pool) it is a surprise that either Moenghus or Kellhus could father viable offspring. The physically malformed sons and daughters of Kellhus are arguably more likely the result of the many deleterious recessives in [i:249xzqfa]Kellhus'[/i:249xzqfa] heritage than a failing in Esmenet or her chosen concubines. view post

Re: The Doomed Ordeal? posted 29 Apr 2009, 20:04 in The Judging EyeThe Doomed Ordeal? by anor277, Didact

[quote="Boblin":158d8vxb]Even if Kellhus wants to destroy Golgotterath, I don't see if, or how, this is possible. My impression is that even the nonmen Quya couldn't destroy it when they had an obvious opportunity, since they just cast a glamour around it.[/quote:158d8vxb]In fact the Nonmen did a pretty complete job on the Inchoroi: they (i) turned off every Inchoroi save Aurax and Aurang; and (ii) concealed the Inchoroi base of operations for millenia(?). The idea is not to destroy Golgotterath physically but to destroy the individual Consult members and (maybe) the extant remains of the No-God. How many ranking Consult are left? Good question. Aurax and Aurang certainly, Shaeonnara, Mekeritrig (maybe when he's taking his lithium salts), a dozen other Nonmen sorcerors (maybe), a few of Shaeonnara's acolytes from the Mangaecca School who also have cheated death and perdition? Of course the Consult has the remaining resources of Golgotterath (with good enough technologies to produce the Skin spies) and maybe thousands of suitably motivated Sranc and Bashrag, but I never got the impression that the Consult (of generals) was quite numerous (perhaps 20 or so ranking members?). Kellhus' Ordeal against the Consult does have an achievable aim. view post

Re: Sarl posted 25 May 2009, 06:05 in The Judging EyeSarl by anor277, Didact

[quote="Firestorm896":145hl1r2]It was the . . . Magi Nonmen who fought the Inchori, right? Banned their "magic"? And aren't skin spies .. . a magic of the Inchori? So one would think that Cleric would be able to determine if Sarl was a skin spy .. .[/quote:145hl1r2] As far as we know, all of the Non-Men fought the Inchoroi (save the renegade practitioners of "Aporetic" sorcery - who might have taught a few Inchoroi how to conjure). The skin spies are specifically [i:145hl1r2]non[/i:145hl1r2]-magical artefacts, produced by Inchoroi technology; a Non-Man thus has no special ability to detect them. Somewhere in [i:145hl1r2]TTT[/i:145hl1r2] Aurang mentioned that they had placed agents (i.e. skinspies) in Ishterebinth, the last inhabited Non-Man mansion. ETA: On topic, I don't see any reason to suppose that Sarl is a skin-spy. view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 07 Aug 2009, 06:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAbout the Dunyain... by anor277, Didact

I think we've dealt with this question before, and it has been specifically addressed in the earliest novel. Granted there were individual Dunyain with the potential to be sorcerors, however, those individuals were all turned off (i.e. the ones whom Moenghus managed to contact by sorcerous dreams were manifestly "sorcerors"); the Pragma or someone insisted that they all commit suicide - I don't recall the details - as they were a threat to Ishual's isolation. The only exception was Kellhus, and he was despatched as an assassin of Moenghus, who had originally threatened the isolation of Ishual. view post

Re: Incariol, what does it mean? posted 30 Aug 2009, 09:08 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by anor277, Didact

[quote="ThePrinceofNothing":3ulr43ra]Why wouldn't Akka pick up on the etymology of Cleric's name? You'd think that it would at least give him cause for consideration. EDIT: Didn't see Curethan's post, second from the top, which I'm in agreement with. I find it hard to believe that, if Incariol is indeed Mekeritrig (or something other member of the Inchoroi), Achamian would allow such a fact to go unnoticed. The etymology and Seswatha's memories should provide him with enough information to deduct who Incariol is.[/quote:3ulr43ra] I think that's the point. Achamian's internal monologue insists that he [i:3ulr43ra]should[/i:3ulr43ra] know Incariol's identity. Incariol is a relic, and his martial and sorcerous prowess bespeak a famous "Name". I guess A. will find out soon enough. view post

Re: Incariol, what does it mean? posted 29 Sep 2009, 23:09 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by anor277, Didact

The Consult agents in Ishterebinth could also be skin spies posing as human slaves. Mind you, the idea that a skin spy could pose as a non-man is not inconceivable; no doubt it would be much more difficult for a skin spy to waylay a non-man, turn him off, and then assume a millenia-old identity, than to do the same with a human. Skin spies were able to replace humans with contemptuous ease (witness Cnaiűr when freed by skin spies from the Nansur, "Is it always this easy?"). view post

Re: This is a bit off topic... posted 12 Oct 2009, 03:10 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by anor277, Didact

I think it's from [i:1oje2n1c]The Prince of Nothing[/i:1oje2n1c], and Achamian goes on to praise the value of doubt (dubiety?, which is the right noun?); can't oblige with a page number sorry. As regards the paperback version of [i:1oje2n1c]TJE[/i:1oje2n1c], I assume this is distinct from the trade paperback (whatever that is); I saw one (TPB) in our local bookstore this morning. view post

Re: This is a bit off topic... posted 12 Oct 2009, 22:10 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by anor277, Didact

Sorry, A. I must be going loopy. The scene is from the first novel, [i:3bmb56c1]TDTCB[/i:3bmb56c1], that's what I meant to say yesterday. DUUUUH. The trade paperback was in a university bookstore in Sydney, and I think it's been there for a long time. ETA: I just had a quick glance thru [i:3bmb56c1]The Darkness that Comes Before[/i:3bmb56c1] (Orbit, 2007 paperback), and I couldn't find the passage for which you're looking. The closest I could find was Chapter 15 (entitled Momenn, p 477 in above edition) where Proyas summons Achamian to his court for advice regarding Kellhus and Cnaiűr. If I'm mistaken then maybe the passage is in [i:3bmb56c1]The Warrior Prophet[/i:3bmb56c1] when Achamian begins to entertain doubts as to Kellhus' identity. I'm sorry I haven't been much help. Hopefully, someone here will know precisely where the passage is. view post

Re: This is a bit off topic... posted 14 Oct 2009, 05:10 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by anor277, Didact

@Athjeari, it seems I was mistaken. I think the passage you want is in Chapter 17 of [i:3l8m8z9g]The Warrior Prophet[/i:3l8m8z9g] (Orbit paperback, 2008, chapter begins p 445, relevant passage is p 457,........"Are you saying the Tusk lies?"................). It was [i:3l8m8z9g]Proyas'[/i:3l8m8z9g] reminiscence and not Achamian's. At the time Achamian was in the hands of the Scarlet Schoolmen, and Proyas has just received a message from Maithanet advising him to assist Drusas Achamian. @PON I'm still trying to write something in response to your Cormac McCarthy thread, everything I write is naive or self-evident or both! view post

Re: R. Scott Bakker and Cormac McCarthy posted 14 Oct 2009, 06:10 in The Judging EyeR. Scott Bakker and Cormac McCarthy by anor277, Didact

I think Bakker was obviously impressed with the McCarthy novel, and the description of Achamian’s expedition is for mine the most absorbing part of [i:1nh8e3xm]The Judging Eye[/i:1nh8e3xm]. The idea that a group of men would band together and hunt a (very dangerous!!!) prey, Apaches or Sranc, is almost beyond belief, and of course in the Apaches' case it was true; a few American and Mexican states paid a bounty on Apache scalps. And remember that scene in [i:1nh8e3xm]Blood Meridian[/i:1nh8e3xm] in the Mexican town where the scalp-hunters have a drunken revel of alcohol and rapine, and there's a sign on the wall when they leave, "Mejor los Indios". That there would exist a type of man who would willingly take those appalling risks in an appalling activity points to a very brutal age. That the British authorities in North America in the 18th century paid a bounty of some £100 per Indian scalp (a fortune!) goes someway to explain why there were some scalpers. I don't know if you've read any of George Macdonald Fraser’s Flashman series of novels (which were comic but quite historical) in which Flashy, notorious bully and poltroon of [i:1nh8e3xm]Tom Brown's Schooldays[/i:1nh8e3xm], joins the army after expulsion from Rugby, and becomes undeservedly a great military hero of the Victorian age (all the while behaving as a coward, lecher, and toad-eater), and was a part-time scalper in [i:1nh8e3xm]Flashman and the Redskins[/i:1nh8e3xm]. Flashy was part of Tom Gallantin’s gang (probably the same as Glanton’s in [i:1nh8e3xm]Blood Meridian[/i:1nh8e3xm]). Glanton’s gang were especially notorious as well in that they drew no distinction between the scalps of braves or those of women or children, or those of unfortunate Mexicans who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (of course neither did the bounty authorities, how do you classify scalps?). view post


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