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posts by Ikiru Candidate | joined 08 Nov 2005 | 18

Source of Powers posted 08 Nov 2005, 18:11 in The Warrior ProphetSource of Powers by Ikiru, Candidate

One thing I find intriguing, but also very confusing, is the source of various powers in this series. In TWP, we see many different kinds of sorcery - Anagogic and Gnosis, of course, but also Iyokus's Daimos, and the Cishaurim's Pshuke. What is the source of these powers? The Daimos seems to suggest that some sort of Christian-Islamic type cosmology exists in this universe, with a Hell filled with demons awaiting damned souls. Do the other sorceries then flow from the God - are they really his words, like the Tusk says? If so, what's the difference between the Pshuke and the other sorceries that leave a Mark? Tying into this question is the nature of Kellhus's abilities. When he's described as having "haloed hands," is this metaphorical, or is he literally starting to glow? Is he actually, despite his deceptions, becoming some sort of Prophet? And when he lifts "the heart from his ribs" at the end of TWP, it's metaphorical of course, but what is the implication? In short, is Bakker writing a story where the people's religion is real and the God is the font of both sorcery and Kellhus's growing powers? Or is it a simple critique of religion, and the source of these powers something else? view post

posted 28 Feb 2006, 03:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Ikiru, Candidate

Moenghus does believe in the divine - he explicitly rejects the Dunyain belief that the world is "closed." Moenghus just believes in a God who "sleeps," as he puts it, who can only be awakened through striving for the Absolute. Kellhus seems to believe in a God who is both immanent and transcendent - within the world, through the "one Here" he describes to Akka, AS WELL AS Outside. Kellhus is convinced that when Moenghus realizes Kellhus's view is right, and damnation awaits him for the monstrous things he's done (think of the woman and child he was feeding to the skin-spies), he will join with the Inchoroi. This is why he kills him. view post

posted 28 Feb 2006, 16:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Ikiru, Candidate

Darlan, I thought the same thing. If Moenghus is a damned sinner, isn't Kellhus? But I guess that's where the concept of rememption comes in. Moenghus is still Dunyain - rather than repent, he'll try to master circumstance. But since Kellhus has explicitly repudiated the Dunyain and embraced the God's will, he's been "saved," so to speak. But the fact that the No-God speaks to him as well as the God suggests that he may not be quite as holy as he thinks. Maybe he WILL turn out to be a villian, if the No-God's voices win out. He envisioned Moenghus joining with the Consult to sacrifice the Three-Seas; it's possible this actually be his own destiny. But I hope not. It's really hard to say, because Scott's writing is so ambiguous. view post

Characters in Aspect-Emperor posted 28 Feb 2006, 16:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCharacters in Aspect-Emperor by Ikiru, Candidate

Like many of you, I'm already thinking about Aspect Emperor. I find myself wondering which characters will be back, and who the book will focus on. Will we see a mostly unfamiliar cast of characters, or mostly people returning from the Prince of Nothing, just a little older? Obviously, Kellhus is the again titular character, and I imagine Esmenet, as his empress, will still be a big part of the storyline. But what about everyone else? In the Q+A forum, Scott said Akka and Esmenet's story is "far from over," so we can assume that Akka will still be around, but in what capacity? Over 20 years, will Kellhus somehow win his forgiveness? I find it hard to believe that Akka would accept that, or that Kellhus would even care - in fact, it's amazing that he didn't just have Akka assassinated. But anyway, what of Proyas, Maithanet, Saubon, Nautzera, and other important characters from this series? I imagine most will still be around, but I wonder if they will be focal points with their own point of view sections again. There's also Kellhus and Cnaiur's sons to consider. They will both be around 20 at this time, and if I remember correctly, everyone believes Cnaiur's son is Kellhus's (although when he likely grows black hair, people may question that.) Kellhus may have had other children by the time of AE. Will these children be major characters? Will Kellhus's children be of the Few? Finally, I was a little confused about Cnaiur at the end. Does he die with Serwe in the darkness, or does "Absolute darkness" just refer to the lack of light? If Cnaiur is alive, I can't imagine him not being part of the next story. Well, I'd love to see what some other people think! view post

posted 28 Feb 2006, 20:02 in Author Q & ACnaiur (spoilers for TTT) by Ikiru, Candidate

Plus, immediately upon Killing Moenghus, Cnaiur wails something like, "No, don't leave me again!" What could be more contradictory than killing someone, only to curse them for leaving you? It seems pretty clear that the kiss had multiple intentions in Cnaiur's world of contradictory emotions. view post

One Possibility... posted 28 Feb 2006, 20:02 in Author Q & AInchoroi, Souls, the Outside [TTT Spoilers] by Ikiru, Candidate

I thought of this same thing while reading. While only Scott knows for sure, my take was that the moral laws that govern damnation and salvation are a feature of Earwa, not the entire universe. The power of Earwa's God or Gods does not extend through the "Void" of space; it is intrinsic to the planet. So the Inchoroi are damned because of what they've done ON EARWA, and will go to Earwa's hell if they die there. By this rationale, if they could repair the Ark and leave, they'd be safe from damnation, but since they've lost their technology, they are stuck in this world where intelligent, "souled" creatures are subject to supernatural moral judgment. That's how I saw it. But it could be just the opposite - the Gods could hold sway throughout the whole universe, meaning the Inchoroi would have to annhilate all intelligent life. Still, since they seem to think killing men and nonmen would be enough, I think the Earwa-specific situation makes more sense. Of course, it's still not clear what convinced them of the existence of the Gods in the first place. view post

Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 28 Feb 2006, 20:02 in Author Q & AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Ikiru, Candidate

Scott (am I allowed to call you that?), I'm wondering why Kellhus and Moenghus are both of the Few. At first, this seemed a little contrived to me, but after finishing TTT I sense that you did it for a very specific reason. Moenghus, when describing his theory of God, suggests that God "sleeps" and can only awakened by striving for the Absolute in the Dunyain manner. Is there something about the Dunyain training that has awakened this power in them - have all Dunyain "awakened" the God, and thus the ability to work sorcery, inside themselves, even though they deny the very existence of the supernatural? Or is it something about the Anasurimbor line? I initially thought that perhaps Kellhus has the power because he is a Prophet, and thus a sort of portal to the Outside, but that wouldn't explain Moenghus. It seems very convenient that these two men of an ancient, noble bloodline are also among the Few. There's also Kellhus's idea that the Few are those who recollect the unity of souls and universal "Here," but I'm not sure if that really explains Moenghus and Kellhus being among their number... Anyway, I doubt I'll get an answer to this, but maybe you can throw a tantalizing cryptic statement or two my way? :lol: view post

posted 28 Feb 2006, 23:02 in Author Q & AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Ikiru, Candidate

Well, that makes sense, but still, it seems like there might be a deeper explanation, given the metaphysical implications of sorcery as described by Kellhus (ie, being of the Few is recollecting the one-ness of the soul, which is synonymous with God). If Kellhus is right, how could any Prophet NOT be of the Few? It also makes sense when you think of the fact that Prophet Fane, according to the glossary of TTT, was the first of the Cishaurim, and thus of the Few. view post

posted 01 Mar 2006, 01:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Ikiru, Candidate

That's possible, but it's also possible the dream is just reflective of Akka's despair. Or, because the No-God is awakening, it's screwing up the dreams. The one problem with Anaxophus = Kellhus is that by this time, Achamian has already learned of Kellhus's true nature and doesn't see him as Seswatha sees Anaxophus. But still, what you say is highly possible, and it crossed my mind too while reading that final scene. view post

posted 01 Mar 2006, 01:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Ikiru, Candidate

Doesn't it also seem like Scott included the skin-spy with a soul for a REASON? Everything that's included has a purpose in these books. I think he was trying to give us some clue about the nature of souls, and sorcery. What it is, though, I can't say. Maybe that souls can be DEVELOPED by intelligent life? view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 02:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by Ikiru, Candidate

I couldn't disagree with you guys more. Kellhus is completing his father's work of preparing the Three Seas to face the No-God. Sure, he did some terrible things, but they were all part of the Thousandfold Thought's plan to unify Earwa before the return of the Consult to battle. Put it this way - the Holy War was horrible, but the Second Apocalypse will be worse. Anything that helps humanity survive the No-God's coming is ultimately good. Including the death and upheaval caused by Kellhus, which transformed the world into one ready for the No-God, at least according to the Thousandfold Thought. I also can't see why you guys think that things must be selfless to be morally right - that seems a very simplistic, traditional conception of morality to me. Besides, is Kellhus really "selfish"? He's not out for personal gratification. Everything he does it out of duty - first to the Dunyain, then to the Gods, in preparing the Three Seas to fight the No-God. It's not pretty, but sometimes you have to go with the lesser of two evils. Kellhus is interesting because he's a savior with a twist - he's not a stereotypical good guy. As for there being no real challenge for him anymore - I think the Second Apocalypse will pose plenty of problems, even for someone as godlike as Kellhus. The No-God is immune to the Gnosis and all sorcery, remember? view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 16:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by Ikiru, Candidate

EE has it right - a character can be on the side of good without being a "good guy," per se. In the same way, Cnaiur spends most of TTT allied with the evil skin-spies, but he's certainly not a "bad guy." Scott doesn't really do good guys, anyway. Most authors paint in shades of black and white; Erikson and Martin paint in shades of gray; Scott paints in shades of gray AND black. It's either semi-good or pure evil in this series. view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 21:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by Ikiru, Candidate

Cnaiur is certainly insane, perhaps criminally so, but we never see him as "evil," as we do the Consult. Cnaiur is as a victim of manipulation and mental illness. He's not making the sort of conscious decisions to wipe out entire races that the Inchoroi are. I agree that he's scary and I wouldn't want to meet him, but I still always sympathize with him, whereas I love to hate the Inchoroi and Consult. Interestingly, I think the Skin-Spies come off as somewhat sympathetic in their conversations with Cnaiur. They seem to have no real understanding of what they are or anything they do, and to have a strange resentment toward their creators. You sort of have to pity them. They're almost like programmed robots with only the barest flicker of consciousness, and absolutely no volition. view post

Battlestar Galactica on SciFi posted 02 Mar 2006, 21:03 in Off-Topic DiscussionBattlestar Galactica on SciFi by Ikiru, Candidate

Does anyone watch SciFi channel's updated Battlestar Galactica series? Not only it is a great, complex show that warrants discussion, there are a few similarities to PoN. In particular, the Cylons remind me quite a bit of the Consult in their use of skin-spy like infiltration, their religiously-inspired desire to destroy all of humanity, and their use of sexuality as a weapon. Anyway, just curious if anyone else likes the show. view post

posted 03 Mar 2006, 02:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by Ikiru, Candidate

Well, Kellhus has already worked some huge societal changes to the end of preparing the Three Seas for Tsuramah's return ... I think he'll do whatever he thinks is necessary. But whether that means ending slavery and such is definitely dubious. I think the question of the Inchoroi's ethical status is interesting. We excuse Cnaiur because he'd mad, and thus not really in control of his moral choices. But if the Inchoroi are really incapable of being anything other than savage rapists and butchers, does that mean they get the same sort of moral exemption? Doesn't moral judgement only apply to volitional acts? Definitely an interesting ethical question. view post

posted 03 Mar 2006, 02:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by Ikiru, Candidate

I think Kellhus will be pretty closely allied with the Mandate. Nautzera already seemed to be sycophantic toward him by the end of TTT. Does anyone think Kellhus's son by Esmi (assmuming it is a son) will become a gnostic sorcerer as well? I'm very curious as to whether Kellhus's son, as well as little moenghus, will be important in AE. view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 06:03 in Off-Topic DiscussionBattlestar Galactica on SciFi by Ikiru, Candidate

Definitely ... and firefly is great too! view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 06:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCharacters in Aspect-Emperor by Ikiru, Candidate

I think Cnaiur is done .. his story arc ended, if he's still alive, I don't think he'll be a major character. It won't surprise me a bit if he's completely absent. view post


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