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posts by amodman Commoner | joined 29 May 2007 | 6

posted 29 May 2007, 12:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by amodman, Commoner

(New Poster Disclaimer, no idea why I haven't registered here before considering how fanatically obsessed I am, etc. etc.) WHAT ARE THE INCHOROI? As early as [i:2v0kh0bl]The Darkness That Comes Before[/i:2v0kh0bl] we have Achamian explain facts of the Universe that he shouldn't possible\y know (stars, planets, etc.) by explaining that the Inchoroi had traveled from another planet or somesuch (I just recently read the trilogy again, I'd have to dig up the exact quote). In any case, we know that they are Extra-Terrestials, as early as the first book. We just don't know what this [i:2v0kh0bl]means[/i:2v0kh0bl] or why the Incoroi wish to destroy humanity so. However, as the trilogy unfolds, the passions and personalities of the Inchoroi are revealed and confirmed through the actions of their children and observations by Kellhus. The traits of the master were given to the spawn. The Inchoroi literally embody everything the Inrithi and supposedly Fanim view as sin - lust, violence, murder, rape, AND we learn their motivations, to destroy mankind to [i:2v0kh0bl]shut[/i:2v0kh0bl] the link to the "Outside" to save their souls, or whatever it is they posess, from damnation. Apparently, the Inchoroi's very nature makes them so disgusting and horrible that this is their singular fate upon death (somehow losing their grip on this world, which they obviously haven't done yet) if they fail. [b:2v0kh0bl]What is clear[/b:2v0kh0bl] is the The Inchoroi are refugees from...something. The Synthese spoke to Kellhus of once having massive amounts of power, blotting out planets and life with his fingertips. This could either mean shaping the Universe with their highly advanced technologies [i:2v0kh0bl]or[/i:2v0kh0bl] literally being imbued with a level or Arcane or Supernatural power that allowed them to do these things. Now the statement of "This isn't Tolkien's fantasy," has already been stated. Indeed, steeped only in Tolkienesque fantasy, [i:2v0kh0bl]Prince of Nothing[/i:2v0kh0bl] is as incomprehendable foreign as a true alien might be to us. However, for us, this is not so, because throughout the series literally [i:2v0kh0bl]everything[/i:2v0kh0bl] mirrors and shadows our real, actual world, subtly reminding us of actual predominant myths, legends, and peoples in the here, and now, and have been. This is Bakker's literal take on fantasy, as we know from interviews, that it is the mythical breeding ground our minds desire, which has been made manifest in histories' mythos, and he has stated that removing any and all reference to the real world from [i:2v0kh0bl]The Bible[/i:2v0kh0bl] makes it almost a fantasy world, and we know how much Inrithism and Fanimry have echoed things like Christianity and Islam, oddly, both by turns. So the religioins, at least, have taken their cues from real world religions, among other things, as well as striking their own, unique paths in Bakker's world. Why did I even touch upon this at all? Because if Bakker has done his homework as much as I think it's obvious he has, he'd know all about [i:2v0kh0bl]real world[/i:2v0kh0bl] myths about aliens, demons, and the like, especially how they relate to religions. Based on this assumption, my theory on the question, Demons or Aliens, is that in a uniquely Bakker way, the Inchoroi will probably be both. What you may not be aware is that there are several real world theologies about the existence of "Aliens" being, in actuality, the trapped spirits of demons haunting our world. In a world where nature is shaped by the Supernatural, obviously formerly Supernatural beings would have extensive knowledge about science as well as their own innate abilities. I speak as much to the real world theologies (many and intricate, I intend nothing more than to touch upon for speculation on fiction) as to the Inchoroi of Bakker's world. Unfortunately, we know next to nothing of the Metaphysics of Bakker's actual Supernatural "Outside" other than what we know Kellhus at least thought he knew, that it definitely existed, affected the real world, and held damnation for the likes of the Inchoroi. I'm thinking, almost definitely, that the Inchoroi were related to the "Outside" at one time or another, but were cut off (or cut themselves off), most likely due to desiring or having the very natures they possess. Was there a war in the Outside? Are there more Inchoroi in the Universe? I may be wrong, but as per the latter I think not. I think the ones we see are it, and are at the end (or beginning) or their own long and arduous journey, how they arrived in a spaceship (Golden Ark through the stars, what have you) to the Three Seas which was somehow their last grab at survival, which led to trying to wipe out this world' connection to the Outside. Humans are definitely the protagonists, whose existence seems to hold this connection. The Outside favors man as long as he remains faithful, clean or sin, or some undefined pre-requisite to avoiding damnation (the religions disagree), nothing different than an all-powerful Deity granting redemption and free will to only man as in real wolrd monotheistic theology. What this not explain, however, is why, when the Inchoroi came to the Three Seas, did they war with Non-Men? If Men themselves were nothing but roaming animals at the time, what threat did the Non-Men pose that the Humans did not then warrant? And of course, the Non-Men's existence evenutally no longer seems a threat to the Inchoroi (see - the Non-Men on the opposite side of the Apocalypse). Perplexing indeed, which begs the further (among many) questions, [b:2v0kh0bl]what the f*** are the Non-Men?[/b:2v0kh0bl] Are they perhaps the supposed God's original favored children, corrupted by never-ending life like the fall immortal man in the Garden of Eden in the Bible? Was this favor then passed to Men, whose existence seems somehow related to the Non-Men, which became the next threat to the Inchoroi, but who were too weak to do anything about it until Men's own Sorcereries were able to revive their strength? So many question, all pending on so many other questions, but back to my basic answer, that the Incoroi's very existence is going to be directly related to what exists as evil, or, sin (which leads to damnation in death for man), as well as being wholly existent and seperated from that damnation, existing only in the physical world with man, but somehow threatened to be pulled into punishment for their nature as long as the gates to damnation (men's souls) still remain. Their No-God's, whatever he may be, effect of cutting off men's ability to even produce children (and trapping men's souls here in torment, according to Achamian), definitely supports this as well in speaking of the Inchoroi's ability to manipulate the boundaries of the Supernatural, more than what should be possible with natural technology.[/i] view post

posted 29 May 2007, 12:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtJust finished a re-read... by amodman, Commoner

No, I'm sure Iyokus definitely wanted Achamian dead, or blinded. I was pretty certain that, whatever happened, it was just a climactic Sorcerous battle with the beast, and Achamian somehow came out successful. He was probably consumed with the spirit of Seswatha at the time, besides blacking out and picked up by local Fanim. view post

posted 29 May 2007, 12:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions that haunt me after just reading TTT. by amodman, Commoner

Wow, so many people confused about what happened with Cnaiur and Moenghus? I thought it was pretty damn clear. What happens when a sorceror is touched with a Chorae? [b:3mmweiz0]They f***ing die.[/b:3mmweiz0] Their bodies turned to salt, to various degrees according to Achamian (based on sorceries worked, it seems, old Non-Men start falling apart fast). We even have that one description in the battle of Sumna of a Spire Sorcerer still appearing to be standing there, but falling apart since it's just a pile of salt that's retained his form. IN ANY CASE, Cnaiur found Moenghus intending to kill him, but was immediately begun to be worked again by the man who literally broke his mind, but [i:3mmweiz0]he still accomplished his goal[/i:3mmweiz0] when he touched the Chorae to Moenghus's cheek and it says [i:3mmweiz0]Moenghus' turned to salt[/i:3mmweiz0]. He is dead. He's gone. Kellhus's father is no more. That is the end of it. view post

posted 29 May 2007, 12:05 in Interviews and ReviewsR.A. Salvatore mentions Scott in passing by amodman, Commoner

[quote="xhaldur":3rkvissi]Heh, I enjoy both authors work. I would say that Salvatore's early work is crap, but each book is better and better. I enjoy the Drizzt books. I'm not ashamed to admit it, they're very entertaining. I do however enjoy Scott's work more.[/quote:3rkvissi] Actually, in his entire body of Drizzt work, Salvatore's best is [i:3rkvissi]The DarkElf Trilogy[/i:3rkvissi]. You may not agree with that, but the majority of his fans will. Also, his [i:3rkvissi]Demon Wars[/i:3rkvissi] saga is leagues and bounds over his Forgotten Realms stuff. At the level of Bakker? No, but fun books with some interesting characters and storyline. [i:3rkvissi]The Highwayman[/i:3rkvissi] is probably my favorite Salvatore novel. Last I saw he was popping out some garbage "dungeon crawl" FR novel every few months in some series or other. view post

posted 30 May 2007, 05:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by amodman, Commoner

[quote="anor277":vl343438]As to the Non-Mens' identity, they are the original inhabitants of Earwa, Elves in Tolkien speak, possessed both of sorcerous and martial power.[/quote:vl343438] No offense, but I don't care how the Non-Men relate to Tolkien, I care how they relate to Bakker's world, and why the Inchoroi felt the need to war with them, and later not (but are hell bent of wiping out the humans). There's a lot about the Non-Men, and motivations of their conflict, which we do not know, but holds great weight. view post

posted 01 Jun 2007, 19:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi: Aliens or Demons? by amodman, Commoner

Very good answers, actually, as far as we know. Though we did, in fact, see one other Non-Man...just not in the "current" time period of the books. The one that had "turned" to the Consult in Seswatha's dream (when he was being tormented on the wall). Seswatha (as Nautzera or Akka, I can't remember) tried to remind the Non-Man how "great" he once was, his benevolence, etc...I believe the scene was either in or before the chapter that opened with the poignant quote of Non-Men's only constant from their long lives being insanity, or something like that... I'm interested in how the cycle of Non-Men to humans actually came about, though, and how/why only these two creatures seemed to be (or were?) connected to the "Outside." Things I'm sure we won't find out anytime soon anyway, though :(. view post


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