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Andrew Peralogue | joined 23 August 2004 | 76 posts

Are Kellus/the dunyain not as "enslaved" as anyone posted 23 August 2004 in Author Q & AAre Kellus/the dunyain not as "enslaved" as anyone by Andrew, Peralogue

Hi i'm new so i'm sorry if this has been asked before. My question is, from what darkness does the Dunyain's mission come? All that seems to count for the Dunyain is their mission - but why have they decided that their mission is more worthwhile than falling over dead? How can Kellus find motivation to act beyond what he has been instructed to do? His instructions/mission themselves seem to come from nothing more than the ritualized life the Dunyain have chosen. If Kellus were to succeed and kill his father, what would be left for him? What would he do? Why should he prefer to return to Ishual over falling down dead or taking over the world?

By the end of the Warrior Prophet, Kellus seems as interested in fulfilling his father's mysterious purpose as his original mandate.

This suggests to me that they aren't any more free than a world born person. The cause that prompts them to continue as before is more subtle than, for example lust, but there must be a cause nonetheless.

The way around this as far as Kellus is concerned, seems to be contained right at the end of the warrior prophet when they are under the tree (trying to write without spoilers), but for the rest of the Dunyain, surely they have considered "why do we bother?". Do they ignore the question, or do they have a reason? Is it curiosity? ambition? egoism?

A related question, is what is the point in mastering circumstance if once achieved you have no preference as to what to do with it? view post

What is your position on science vs philosophy? posted 23 August 2004 in Author Q & AWhat is your position on science vs philosophy? by Andrew, Peralogue

throwing in my two sense on science: Science may be to an extent self correcting, but one problem i see is that the correction may come 100, 200 years after - in the meantime, it's taken as Truth. Moreover science seems often to work backwards: you take theory and search for proof, instead of taking data and allowing theory to create itself. This is inherently flawed because the amount of data required to verify a theory is to a degree subjective, and the same data could equally point to many theories which have or have not been thought of, none of which may be correct. Take string theory - an idea created without the least bit of objective evidence, whose chief virtue is that it would simply things. The theory is created and scientists madly rush to find circumstantial evidence (all that's really possible) of its truth. How can they know when (if) they find some evidence, that some other theory or actual Truth, is actually explanatory of the observed phenomenon? you can't. But in the meantime, everyone else assumes because it is "scientific" that it is true. view post

Like father like son? posted 25 August 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by Andrew, Peralogue


I highly doubt Maithanet is Moenghus. Reason: Maithanet began the holy war against the Fanim. Even assuming Moenghus could predict that Kellus would come to find him and join the holy war on it's way to Shimeh, it seems like such an insane risk. What if Kellus could not dominate the war? what if he were killed before getting there? How could Moenghus be certain that Kellus wouldn't continue his original mission and use the holy war to slaughter all fanim in an effort to get at Moenghus? We KNOW Moenghus either is a cishaurim or is controlling a faction of them without being one. He would basically be putting his entire people on the chopping block if as 'maithanet' he ordered a Holy War.

Don't you think there would be an easier way to have Kellus emerge from Ishual? Kellus could potentially dominate a Mandate schoolman in other circumstances. Or Moenghus could teach him the Psukhe. I realize that the Dunyain can to a degree control the future, and no doubt Moenghus has all sorts of powers having come into the world - it just seems to absurdly risky - not to mention that if Moenghus/Maithanet's true design is to defeat the Consult, by starting the Holy War as a ruse (or whatever), he has caused the slaughter of several hundred thousand Inrithi, plus many many thousand Fanim - fighters which otherwise could have been directed against the Consult.

As to Maithanet's motivation for helping Achamian? WHO KNOWS! Except, if it had to do with teaching Kellus the Gnosis, what pray tell could Proyas do to help? Proyas could not convince Achamian of anything - certainly Proyas would be the WORST candidate to convince Akka to teach SORCERY to Kellus (recall Proyas thinks sorcery is evil!). Thus, i think the idea that Proyas was supposed to help Achamian because Maithanent wants kellus to learn the Gnosis because Maithanet is Moengus, Just Does Not Make Sense. view post

Like father like son? posted 26 August 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by Andrew, Peralogue

Q: you were ahead of me - i hadn't even considered that maithanet might be moenghus. Like you, i tend to just let the story unfold and not analyze anything. Only when someone suggests something do i bother thinking about it.

Anor227: I don't think Maithanet is consult - why declare against the Fanim you ask? why not? The Fanim have led many holy wars against the Inrithi and vice versa - i'm not sure any more motive is required other than the liberation of Shimeh.

Here's what i see as being evidence on the theory that Maithanet is with the Consult:
1) he declared the Holy War
2) he knew of the war between the Cishaurim and the Scarlet Spires
3) he can see the few - Skeos recognized Achamian as a Mandate Sorcerer. That suggests the skin spies can see the few. On the other hand, maybe the skin spies can only see Mandate Schoolmen? Maybe they can see Seswatha hanging as a shroud about them?
4) Maithanet's uncanny success at rooting out spies and his uncanny rise to power.
5) Maithanet took an interest Achamian, asking Proyas about him after Achamian came before Maithanet in TDTCB - Actually if i recall correctly, Maithanet knew Achamian was a mandate schoolman and that proyas knew him - if so, that would be the strongest thing in my mind to say Maithanet was a skin spy.

Here's what i see as being against the Maithanet as a skin spy theory:
- most skin spies we've seen have been close to the powerful without actually being on of the powerful. Skeos - counsellor to Ikurei; Sarcellus - close to Gotian, knight commander of the Shrial Knights; Chepheramunni - not sure, but wasn't around the 2nd/3rd in command level with Ainon/Scarlet Spires? - As one of the most powerful men in the world, a skin-spy Maithanet would be in extreme risk of assassination. Can you imagine how much sh*t would hit the fan if an attempt were sucessful and maithanet's face opens up?
- He instructed Proyas to aid Achamian (strongest point in my opinion)
- At the time of the letter from Maithanet, the Consult must have been aware Achamian was with the Holy War - no one in the world but a Mandate Schoolman would even think to look for the Consult amidst the Holy war - thus, a Mandate schoolman journeying with the Holy War would be the greatest threat to the enterprise being uncovered as a Consult scheme. In that context i can't believe Maithanet (if he were a skin spy) would instruct Proyas to aid Achamian.
- All 5 points listed above can be explained away and are not particularly convincing.

The swift rise to power is the most difficult in my mind to understand, but why can't that happen naturally for an exceptionally gifted individual? view post

What is the Thousand-Fold Thought? posted 26 August 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat is the Thousand-Fold Thought? by Andrew, Peralogue

Here's what we know:
1. The "thought" is something Moenghus has discovered or thought up.
- When Moenghus returned to Ishual, he was found to have been polluted by the world and was not allowed to return.
- Moenghus is almost certainly a Cishaurim (so Kellus believes)

The thousand-fold thought may be an extension of Dunyain philosophy, or it may be a realization that comes from living in the world. Personally, i favour the latter theory simply because if Moenghus discovered a powerful extension of Dunyain thought, he would not have been rejected.

2. Kellus recognized the thousand-fold thought when he came down from the tree.
- when he came down, he was revered as a warrior prophet, however, the reverence alone cannot have anything to do with TTT because he had that reverence before.
- when he came down, he seems to have accepted that he IS the WP, or the Harbinger - in which case TTT may be that what comes after can determine what comes before.
- Hanging from the tree, 3 major things happened to Kellus: first, he was able to spot and communicate with Akka even though Akka was walking in sorcery - the Puske is a kind of thought/mental sorcery, as opposed to the Gnosis/anagogis which is spoken - potentially, Kellus is here delving into/awakening into rudimentaries of the Puskhe. Thus something related to the sorcery may have to do with TTT. Second, Kellus experienced the visions of the No-God - an ape with hands folded like a monk sitting under a tree - the words "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" etc. Significance of this? I think Kellus is realizing that what he is, what the Dunyain are, is basically the same as what the No-god is. IMO there is no real difference - each will use and destroy anything to achieve its goals. consider that the vision of the no-god took place while kellus hung under a tree, and the no-god was crouching under a tree. consider the no-god had a monk-aspect, Kellus is a dunyain monk etc.
Third, Kellus lost control and sobbed for Serwe - 'his face beaten into a strangers face' - this indicates an ACTUAL experience of sorrow.

The "secret of battle" cannot be TTT because Kellus knew about it long ago.

I think TTT is related to actually becoming human - experiencing sorrow etc - realizing that the Dunyain as as 'enslaved' to mission as worldborn men are to their feelings - Darkness comes before everything, the question is what will you be ruled by? The emotion of men, or the indifferent mission of the Dunyain, an indifference which ultimately leaves the Dunyain morally as no different from the No-God. view post

What is your position on science vs philosophy? posted 27 August 2004 in Author Q & AWhat is your position on science vs philosophy? by Andrew, Peralogue

Alas my Quinean proclivities are somewhat virtue of not knowing what the word means - in any event, the other thing that's a problem in my mind with science, is that it's taken to prove things that are fundamentally not provable through science - the existence of God for example. all science really seems to do is describe. That description might be true, false, or partly true, but it can only actually describe based on data it receives. If things were fundamentally different at the other "side" of the universe, there is absolutely no way science can tell us anything about that - it destines us to partial truths, relative truths at best. Of course science is better at convincing people of those truths, but 99% of the time it is a convincing that is beyond the listener. Which is probably why so many people trust science absolutely - People are always impressed by a handful of tautology mixed with a liberal dose of What the Hell does that Mean? Not to say that that is all that science is - what i'm gettin at is, it is belief without understanding. We have to accept as faith that the conclusion we hear is accurate. Half of 'cutting edge' science seems as much one-upmanship as anything else. We lay-people have no way to disregard the good from the bad. Scientists are the new priests muttering in incoherent tongues. The nut-balls standing on their roofs searching for UFO's are as convinced in the infallibility of science as the Professors.

The thing is, scientific truth claims, as truth claims, fall short of what we're looking for. People want truth about the existence of God, the meaning of Life, the Meaning of Pain, the meaning of Freedom. 1+1 = 2 isn't ever going to stop a suicide. The statement :"pain is a chemical reaction in your brain" - is true and of absolutely no relevance (unless you're a pharmacist). i don't know what my point is anymore. A diversion is needed...

Why do you say no one takes absolute truth seriously anymore? Isn't it absurd that there should be no absolute truth? or do you mean no one expects to be able to prove what the absolute truth is, or that no one expects to absolutely prove X to be true? view post

Cnair posted 01 September 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnair by Andrew, Peralogue

I'm intrigued by your sympathy towards Cnaiur - i see him as being the most thoroughly evil human character in the book. Unlike the other characters, he acts the way he does without any reason but to affirm himself and his own choice. When he randomly murders and rapes to "get what compensation he could", he isn't doing so because he fundamentally believes anything the victims are evil, or are an abomination in the God's sight, or whatever. He acts as he does to affirm for himself that he is what he choses to be - the most violent of men. He has no reason to chose that however - he might as easily chosen to become the most "sucessful of horticulturalists". Unlike other men, and indeed, other scylvendi, Cnaiur choses the paths which he forces himself down, and it is quite the demonic twisted path indeed! I see Cnaiur as the ultimate psychopath.

In terms of a sense of honour and justice - i don't know where you see that. This is the man who sympathized with the sentiments of the Fanim traitors who opened the gates of their city over their hatred of the governor (incidentally, i think that was a Consult move, not a fanim move). That is, he understood a hatred so large, it would sacrifice an entire city of innocents to accomplish its ends. This man abandoned his entire family, including the wife he loved to the Steppe with all the inevitable consequences that would entail. He measures himself by his slaughter. He murders and abuses simply to distinguish himself from those around him. If the man had any sense of honour or justice in the way we recognize, he would have cut his throat long ago.

You may i think, be confusing purity of purpose, or purity in action, in the sense of acting entirely for one purpose and with one end, with purity of character. Even that purity of purpose is lost by the end of the Warrior Prophet, when Cnaiur trades War for Serwe. In terms of his character ... my goodness. Even in our politically correct, give em a second chance, they're victims too, Capital of the Universe (Canada) you'd find near unanimity on reinstating the death sentence for the guy. view post

Terry Goodkind engages in rape fantasy? posted 01 September 2004 in Literature DiscussionTerry Goodkind engages in rape fantasy? by Andrew, Peralogue

"anarchy wears the robes of tolerance and understanding"

Actually i can buy that comment. I've been in a university for the last 6 years. Anyone who doesn't believe that mantra's of "tolerance" can lead to the utmost intolerant and oppressive atmosphere should take a close look at their local university. Or just read recent news from Concordia university.

In terms of Goodkind's comments on history, i think he is generally correct in the sense that historically one can very often see a tipping point in the lifecycle of a nation or empire or whatever, which point often revolves around a rejection of the system, moral or philosophical, that enabled the initial sucesses of the nation. Don't believe our society may be at that tipping point? then what do you think the election in the U.S. is all about? I doubt there has been a point in American history when the electorate was so fundamentally divided. Even during the Civil War I would suggest the two sides were fundamentally far more similar than the two sides of the Bush/Kerry camp.

I do agree about the quality of his writing, and his story though. I can't stand Goodkinds' writing since the third book in the series. view post

On the subject of Chorae posted 01 September 2004 in Author Q & AOn the subject of Chorae by Andrew, Peralogue

So then how did the Quya defectors manage to inscribe them? view post

On the subject of Chorae posted 02 September 2004 in Author Q & AOn the subject of Chorae by Andrew, Peralogue

Quote: "Cu'jara Cinmoi":2071u98w
I'm afraid you've touched world-building bottom with that one, Andrew![/quote:2071u98w]

What? .. you..mean ..its not real?!?!?! another soft delusion crumples... view post

Cnair posted 02 September 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnair by Andrew, Peralogue

Aiturahim: I have to agree about Kellus - i've always been torn about whether Kellus or Cnaiur was more "evil" (i'll use quotes so as to avoid ruffling Tellner's feathers). Kellus would definitely qualify as a psycho-path. How can anyone read the abandonment of Leweth and not be appalled? The only consolation the reader can find, is in the otherness of Kellus psychology - we can understand his actions, because who among us hasn't swatted a fly that interefered with our supper? The difference, and the key to identifying with Kellus, is that for him all men are flies.

Tellner: I don't think anyone does things "Just because he's evil" - people don't sit around like "ok, i'm evil, what wicked thing should i do now?" - rather we call them wicked/evil, or they prove they are evil AFTER the person has decided to act in whatever way they want. IE. Cnaiur doesn't murder and rape because he's evil - rather the fact that he murders and rapes makes him evil.
I would point out that no one has suggested getting into the head space of a Sranc, or a Skin-Spy and trying to identify with why they want to fuck severed heads. The Inchoroi are litterally aliens, who seem to lust after destruction and pain in the same way people look for peace and sex. I'm not interested in seeing the world from their point of view - No one wants to make the No-God a hero - "but maybe the no-god wants to make every womb barren because he was abused as a child - oh i feel bad for him! maybe if i were abused in the same way, i would want to destroy the earth! I'm not evil, ergo the No-god is not evil!" Or, we could take the evolutionary tack "the inchoroi clearly evolved in an atmosphere where rape, torture, and abomination enabled them to become evolutionarily superior - since the only objective measure of the good is evolutionary success, for the Inchoroi rape, murder etc. is a moral good, therefore in trying to destroy the world they are not evil." view post

Cnair posted 03 September 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnair by Andrew, Peralogue

Scarred: In terms of the Nietzschien element - i've always considered both Cnaiur and kellus to be reflections of two Nietzschien ideals. Cnaiur on the one hand seems to be a perfect example of the Master Morality ideal. Strength, dominance, power etc. affirming itself through action. Nietzche i think would approve of Cnaiur. Kellus seems to be a perfect example of the Uber-Mensch. An individual that has transcended humanity - is in complete control of his actions and of all men, most perfectly able to choose. Nietzshe (N) would also approve of Kellus. From that perspective, what either character does is right and good regardless of its consequences on other people. N viewed things like compassion, forgiveness, mercy, humility etc., in, shall we say, a less than favourable light. The weak and pitiful value mercy etc. and set such values up to be desired in order to subvert the natural order and value system of dominance, strength etc. N derided Christianity because it says, "blessed are the meek, poor, merciful etc.; turn the other cheek - if a man asks you to go one mile, go two miles." Having said this, i don't believe that Bakker is setting up these two characters as ideals or saying their actions are actually good. Just because N would tell you they are good, right, above reproach whatever, doesn't mean they actually ARE good.

I think that if anything Bakker has set out to destroy those 2 ideals because scarred, you are perfectly right when you say that in a universe goverened by Nietzschean ideals, the Consult is exactly the same as Kellus. - actually it might be better to say that the Consult is the same as Cnaiur. In a typical book, the characters from whose point of view the book is told, or who the action follows most closely, are intended to be the sympathetic character - the 'good guy'. I don't think that is the objective in the PON - i think what we have in the PON are the extraordinary characters. The characters, good or evil, upon which the fate of the world rest. I don't think we can say from this that Bakker is sold on N. It doesn't follow that the actions of the principal characters are good.

It certainly doesn't follow that I am going to say "oh, it's a nietzschean universe, i guess i'll have to applaud Cnaiur's raping and murder" - hang that! i'm solidly against N and the moral system he espoused.

In terms of resolving the Kellus v. Consult issue - i think we got a huge hint of that at the end of the WP. I've spoken of this in other threads, but consider:
- mercy towards Cnaiur - Kellus even lied to himself to spare Cnaiur
- sorrow for Serwe
Recall: when Moenghus returned to the Dunyain from his time in the world, he was sent away having been deemed to be polluted by the world.

I'm not sure why you think Cnaiur is a Dostoyevskian character?

Joel: Cnaiur is easy to manipulate? Even when Kellus finally suceeded, Cnaiur was aware that he was being manipulated...who else can claim that? Kellus knew that Cnaiur was his biggest threat - he believed Cnaiur's usefulness to be at an end, and yet he could not bring himself to kill him. Something's going on. view post

Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 02 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Andrew, Peralogue

In respect of the last post re: kellus learning the Gnosis from Akka - Consider: every book title thus far is related to the development of Kellus - from Dunyain to a prince of nothing; from prince of nothing to warrior prophet. The original title for book 3 was "when sorcerors sing" - the Pskuhe (whatever) is a mental sorcery whereas the Anagogis and the Gnosis are spoken (and frequently referred to as 'song') - thus Kellus will certainly learn either the Anagogis, or the Gnosis if he is to be transformed into a 'singing sorcerer' (realllly tough!). I would bet heavily on him learning the Gnosis from Achamian.

My only other comment is that I think Conphas and his intended betrayal of the Holy WAr has become completely irrelevant. The Warrior Prophet has absolute command of the Holy war (recall final battle of TWP - recall throat slitting emissary scene prior to final battle). Kellus realizes that something far greater than he expected to find is before him. It's not just about using the Holy War to kill his daddy anymore. I don't think he will allow the Holy War to destroy Shimeh. Frankly, I don't think anyone who is a part of the Holy War will be able to prevent Kellus from exercising absolute control, the question is what will he do with that control? view post

What is the Thousand-Fold Thought? posted 02 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat is the Thousand-Fold Thought? by Andrew, Peralogue

Excellent. I've fooled them all. And it only took a mere 2 months for them to fall into my trap. view post

Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Andrew, Peralogue

What's all this about "Aspect Emporer"?

I don't think the "Thousandfold Thought" has to do with sorcery either. I was talking about the original title for the book which was "when sorcerors sing".

In terms of Kellus being able to turn the holy war from Shimeh, I don't think it would take any effort at all. I think that by the end of Warrior Prophet the Men of the Tusk have come to believe en masse as sincerely as Serwe believed. Whatever Conphas' sway when he was denouncing Akka, that came BEFORE thousands saw Kellus first defended by Cnaiur AGAINST a skin spy, then, cut from the tree he had hung from upside down for days only to rise up and stand before them with strength, almost as a God - then Kellus led them, starving and near death into battle against a well fed numerically superior enemy - and they won! Do not discount the portion at the end of Warrior Prophet right before we are introduced to Aengelas... "The Holy War had been absolved" ... "And to anyone who listened, they would whisper a revelation...The secret of battle. Indomitable conviction. Unconquerable belief." - That is referring to the conviction and belief of the Men of the Tusk IN KELLUS. Whatever Kellus tells them to do, they will regard as the very will of the God. Kellus could probably have them turn on Maithanet himself and they would. view post

Scott, tell me this won't be your excuse for delaying TTT ;) posted 09 November 2004 in Author Q & AScott, tell me this won't be your excuse for delaying TTT ;) by Andrew, Peralogue

Jumping back to the original topic, Martin has a new post commenting on all the feedback he's received. Interestingly, he wrote this:

"I have also received some thoughtful and considered missives from Bush voters, expressing their disagreement with the views I expressed in my last update. I wish I had time to answer those, since I do believe that the only way America is ever going to heal is if people of good will on both sides talk to one another and find some common ground."

What did he call the Bush victory? a victory of racism and bigotry or something like that? I'd be interested to know just where his common ground lies. view post

This time I got a question... posted 22 November 2004 in Author Q & AThis time I got a question... by Andrew, Peralogue

This is a half-baked theory coming straight out of my A@@, but, maybe politically and culturally this ain't the best time for your type of book in the U.S.. Things seem pretty starch-collar right now in terms of the public's reaction to the mass media and offensive content. I'm think'n things like Janet's breast, and this new row involving the "desperate housewives" NFL commercial slot - Like, people seem to have realized that the public is sick of having flith forced on them and their little kiddies, so maybe the book publishing goons are second-guessing stuff that's a bit on the edge content wise. Not that I'm comparing your books to desperate housewives ads - i just mean, that the moral backlash might be catching some really worthy material as well as the stupid racey t.v. stuff. I dunno.

It's unfortunate that for so many Canadian authors, the Rainbow's end is south of the border - but if you keep writing such fantastic stuff, I have no doubt that eventually someone down there will get it.

Off topic now - i have to take a shot at Erthaelion for that Brooks/Jordan/Goodkind comment - there's such a Canadian elitism vis-a-vis the U.S. - and it's completely unjustified. Go down to any bookstore in Canada and the shelves are full of aforementioned crappy authors - and the canadian public are lapping it up. We're not brilliantly smart just because we're into Bakker, and U.S. publishers, which are in the business of making the most money with the least risk, aren't thoroughly stupid for not taking a chance on an unknown. The Sole reason I picked up Prince of Nothing was because it had Erikson's stamp of approval. I suspect there are many of us on this board in that same camp. The only reason I picked up Erikson was because some Chapters employee had it as their pick - and i was intriqued by the cover art of Chain of Dogs. It don't get no more smrt than that. view post

Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 24 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Andrew, Peralogue

Jaw Doc - I think you are thinking of Mallahet - most powerful Cishaurim. If you have the trade paper back of TDTCB look at p. 152-4. If you don't have that version check out ch. 5. Mallahet is described as being extraordinarily powerful among the cishaurim, he is not native to Kian, his arms are scarred like Scylvendi and he speaks flawless Sheyic. So most people think Mallahet is Moengus - view post

Nicholas Eames Chapter Five posted 14 December 2004 in Member Written WorksNicholas Eames Chapter Five by Andrew, Peralogue

Very good! I have to say, it caught my interest. The only critique - your first 2 sentences. The first sentence is exceedingly verbose. After reading that first sentence, I nearly stopped reading entirely. But i'm glad i didn't! Second sentence also, i would suggest, is a bit too long. But maybe I only thought that given how long the first sentence was.
Besides all that, i have to say the chapter was a heck of a lot better reading than I expected! Oh, one other thing - Obviously i don't know how the story starts, but for a 5th chapter, this felt an awful lot like a first or second chapter... view post

Moenghus as Harbinger posted 15 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Andrew, Peralogue

i agree that it is important that only Kellus is currently known as an Anasurimbor. Kellus made the point to Akkamian when he was first told the Celmomanian prophecy, that there has always been an anasurimbor - living in Ishual. For that matter, given 2000 years since the apocolypse, probably every dunyain has a little anasurimbor in him/her. So the prophecy clearly cannot relate to the mere existence of an anasurimbor, nor to someone who knows they are an anasurimbor, b.c clearly the Dunyain have retained their names over the last 2000 years (or kellus wouldn't have known his own true name). If Moengus were known as an anasurimbor, i doubt that Kellus would have taken the consult by surprise. Clearly Moengus is some kind of dangerous mystery to the Consult, which is why the consult wants to wipe out the Cishaurim.

I don't agree with the point about Kellus' son being of great importance with respect to the prophecy or the victory over the consult - kellus is only 40 something. I'm sure that genetically he is a superior individual so he can reasonably remain vigorous and powerful well into his 60's or 70's - recall that the Pragma's who trained Kellus were old.
I think you'd need someone at the height of their powers to take on the No-God/Consult/whoever else - not some 20 yr old pup who lacked the benefit of a Dunyain upbringing. In 20 years Kellus will have mastered the Gnosis plus who knows what other magic and he'll have an empire to lead into war and he'll have his regular dunyain skills. What will his son have? view post

Cnair posted 15 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnair by Andrew, Peralogue

i would generally agree w. revcasy's last comment - except with the proviso that a person may be very evil, and yet not manifest such in a way detrimental to those around him. I am referring to a person who might be too afraid of punishment or failure to carry out his evil desires and so is completely innocuous to those around him.

in respect of the evilness of babies, i'm not really sold on that - selfishness is not per se bad or wrong. it depends on the context - the 'selfishness' of a baby flows (at first anyway) from its obliviousness to what is going on around it and its lack of comprehension that something other than itself really exists. In a world with no other people, selfishness wouldn't be good or bad, it would be neutral... I certainly wouldn't agree that "the only good is innocence", but innocence is certainly one way of goodness.

in terms of "desire" i think Ilana was referring to base desires...

Interesting tie-in to this discussion: In the bible, Adam and Eve were forbidden from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because to gain that knowledge would be to enable sin with its consequent separation from God and death. view post

Moenghus as Harbinger posted 21 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Andrew, Peralogue

ya make some good points. However, here follows the decisive counter to any and all arguments which might be raised: NO 3rd generation child ever did better than the preceding generations. I think it's a law of nature. Young Anasurimbor will inherit 3 empires and blow them all before s/he turns 30 on cheap liquor and Nonwomen Harlots. view post

The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 16 April 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by Andrew, Peralogue

safe to say that a single schoolman whether gnostic, anagogic etc., could wipe out the Dunyain. Their only hope would be if they've held onto trinkets, not knowing what they are, but rather, considering them heirlooms or something. That is possible considering that the Dunyain who first came to Ishual probably had some kind of protection in order to escape destruction. Question i have is, will Kellus return to Ishual prior to the Consult discovering it, or not? Eventually he's going to conclude that the only way to effectively deal with skin-spy infiltration is to have more of his brethren around. Although there are of course certain risks involved in bringing more Dunyain into the picture - most notably, the risk of Kellus' power & methods being revealed. view post

The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 16 April 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by Andrew, Peralogue

In respect of WL's comment about searching everywhere for the dunyain, i would think that the consult would not quickly consider that their enemy is sitting on their very doorstep. Ishual is deep within what the consult would probably consider their home turf. Recall that Kellus traveled south for many days before coming across Leweth who was himself quite isolated from men. It is not just that Ishual is in an unlikely place, but that there are supposed to be NO humans around there. The current search methodology of the consult assumes that the Dunyain are some obscure tribe or people who have actual contact with the world and live near other people. So to get to the point, i think the Dunyain are safe for a while. Just a question of time! view post

livin n dyin in TTT posted 16 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Andrew, Peralogue

Random predictions:

DEAD after end of TTT:
1) Kellus - at hands of Cnaiur OR Moenghus
2) Xinemus - at hands of Fanim OR disease
3) Emporer of Nansur - at hands of Imperial Saik
4) Cnaiur - at hands of Consult OR Moenghus
5) Esmenet - at hands of skin spy
6) Maithanet - at hands of scarlet spires OR consult
7) Eleazaras - at hands of Akkamian
<!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> The Scarlet Spires (as a school) - broken by the Cishaurim or by betrayal

ALIVE after TTT:
1) Akka
2) Conphas
3) Proyas
4) Moenghus
5) Children of Kellus
6) Iyokus

Other Random Predictions
- Iyokus will commit a horrible betrayal and then join forces with the consult
- Akka will retreat with Kellus' children to Ishual where he will break faith with the mandate and reveal the Gnosis to the Dunyain
- School of Mandate will become most powerful and will receive endorsement of Maithanet or his successor (ie. will be absolved of status as evil sorcerors)
- Kellus will reveal all about the Dunyain to Akka in exchange for the Gnosis view post

The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 20 April 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by Andrew, Peralogue

When the Dunyain scrubbed the walls of ishual and burned the magic books, they had just barely escaped from the wars and destruction unleashed by the consult - they were haggard and diminished survivors. I've always taken their actions as a symbolic rejection of the world they had left behind. The Dunyain seem to value isolation and a pure search for the Logos as the only thing worthwhile. They reject gods and magic as superstition, so i don't think that they were intentionally making themselves findable by those acts. Also consider that they did that stuff 2000 yrs before the setting of PoN.
In respect of the manipulation of faces which the dunyain engage in, from what I recall they have simply discovered that direct manipulation of the brain via needles causes physical manifestations of certain emotions. That is not on the same order, or even of a like nature, with the Tekne, through which the consult is able to construct NEW beings with specific determinable attributes.

I think i have to revise my random prediction about the Dunyain collectively being taught the Gnosis. Seems to me that all the Dunyain who received the Dream from Moenghus went and killed themselves (except for Kellus of course). The only other example of dream communication we have is when Akka contacted his Mandate brothers (ie. dream communication between the Few). If dream communication can only occur between the Few (or alternatively, if only the Few are easily findable by a sorceror who must search out persons from a distance), then all the Dunyain who received the dreams and killed themselves, would be all the Dunyain who could learn sorcery. view post

livin n dyin in TTT posted 23 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Andrew, Peralogue

I'm sure he's not dead. He slipped away once achamian started battling the demon. I remember thinking he would have some significant part to play in the future. view post

The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 23 April 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by Andrew, Peralogue

yeah i agree grantaire. but there is a difference between someone randomly and accidentally stumbling across something in a place you never expected it would be, and someone actively searching for something in a place you don't expect it to be. I don't know how many times i've searched in vain for something in all the likely places where i think it should be, only to find that thing a week later in a completely unlikely place when i'm not searching for it anymore. view post

Feelings for our protaganist posted 23 April 2005 in Author Q &amp; AFeelings for our protaganist by Andrew, Peralogue

Referenced to all of my objective standards, he strikes me as exceedingly evil. In our world, we would call him a psychopath. But he's an evil character that you can admire for his greatness.

It is easier to forgive someone who acts out of a base and distorted notion of the good. Example - Sarcellus - he has essentially been programmed to have a base and disgusting notion of what is good. For him as for us, sexual expression is a good - except in Sarcellus the manifestation of that expression is base and evil. The consult represents a twisting and deformity of what is good. They take creativity, which is good - and twist it and construct evil creatures. They take physical pleasure, which is good and twist and distort it into an all encompassing need. Another example would be Cnaiur - he takes honour which is a good, and twists it into something awful by murdering, raping, beating etc. in order to satisfy his craving to be honoured.

All these things we can understand because in our own lives we all engaging in a certain twisting of things which are good into that which is objectivly evil. For example, the drive to succeed and be excellent will often be twisted into an excess which justifies lieing to get ahead, stabbing competitor's in the back etc. The desire to be esteemed, or safe or prosperous can lead to excessive greed etc. All people walk a certain line between the things which are good in and of themselves, and the way we manifest these goods in our lives. Some people fall so far away from the ideal that it is easy to view them as being completely other than us. One can take as an example a pedophile - as i said a moment ago, the sexual urge and sexual satisfaction is a good thing. From the perspective of the pedophile, he is satisfying an urge which is good. Objectively speaking however, his urge is such a distortion and mutilation from what objectively is a Good manifestation of sexuality that people consider the pedophile to be almost outside the human race, inhuman, sub-human etc. In reality, he has really just fallen far farther than the rest of us. His view of sexuality is far more twisted from the ideal than ours. However it is a matter of degree only. We can perhaps find some pity for the man because we know that in our own lives we too twist what is good into what is not.

Kellus however has no notion of the good (that i can see). He perpetrates acts which objectively must be considered evil and we cannot understand why. (we know his reasons but not why considers his reasons worth doing the act in question). view post

Now Reading... posted 23 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by Andrew, Peralogue

currently reading: "the House of the Dead" - Dostoeyevsky; "The 911 Commission Report" - 911 commission; "Anarchy, State, Utopia" - Nozick; "When she's gone" - steve lundin (steven erikson); "Knowing the Face of God" - tim stafford; collected letters of C.S. Lewis (vol 1.)

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