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Spoilerish question regarding Sorcery posted 27 Jan 2006, 21:01 by zarathustra, Peralogue

I was re-reading the passage where Kellhus describes how sorcery works to Achaimian. It takes a few readings to grasp. Anyway I was thinking that it must be an advantage to all sorcerors to become blind whether Cishaurim or not as they have the advantage of being able to comprehend the outside or many better. Is this the case or am I misunderstanding what you have written? The other question concerns the Mysunsai, I read their reference in the glossary are they now based in any one place and how do they recruit and train their members? Are there any other details that you can share with us on them? thanks view post

posted 28 Jan 2006, 16:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The idea is that sorcery is primarily discursive, and as such, tied to the ability to see (there's a long tradition in continental philosophy critiquing the centrality of visual metaphors in Western philosophical discourse). The psukhe, on the other hand, is primarily emotive. So the idea would be that where sorcery captures fragments of the God's intellect, the psukhe expresses instants of the God's heart. Since the former is cognitive, which is to say, admits of being more or less true, it necessarily falls short. Since the latter is not cognitive, it is indistiguishable from the God's own world. I'd have to go digging to find your answers regarding the Mysunsai, Zara. I want to say they're based in Invishi, but I'm not sure. They actually buy children. view post

posted 28 Jan 2006, 17:01 by Andrew, Peralogue

hence the fact that the Puskari do not bear the mark? On a different line, I recall from some discussion long ago on this board as to the nature of the Chorae, that they are essentially enscribed with Aporos cants which have the nature of undoing cants. Since the Phuske does not seem to involve cants, but in some way a pure outflowing of power, and since the Chorae were designed long before Fane, why is it that they affect the Cishaurim? view post

posted 28 Jan 2006, 19:01 by zarathustra, Peralogue

Thanks for the reply Scott its kind of what I should have guessed at. Any more information on the Mysunsai would be brilliant for some reason they really interest me. I don't think they will play a big part in things but the idea of mercenary sorcerors would be great for spin-off stories. view post

posted 05 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

Scott, to summarize from what I gathered when I read Kellhus's explanation about teh Cishaurim: Moenghus is limited because the Psukhe does not work on intellict but on passion, and a Cishaurim can only become as powerful as his own passions. This is basically the long and short of it, correct? But it is explained that the other Cishaurim look down upon Moenghus even as they respect his mind and powers, because he doesn't have access to "the water". They seem him as cursed by the Solitary God. What is meant by this? What does Moenghus lack that other Cishaurim don't? view post

posted 05 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Mithfânion":33b1xqis] What is meant by this? What does Moenghus lack that other Cishaurim don't?[/quote:33b1xqis] As a Dunyain he has no real passion, and so has been unable to progress past a certain level of Sorcery. He has been able to get to a certain level, but he is inherently crippled. He is respected because of his intellect, which hasn't helped him in Sorcery but he is still regarded highly as a philosopher type. view post

posted 05 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

Yes I understand that he is limited in terms of passion as a Dunyain, that's correct. But since we have come to know him as the most powerful member of the Cishaurim, and as one who is highly respected by the other Kishauri, what is it that he lacks? In what do the others surpass him, why do they think him cursed? The quote goes: [i:2iiarpgy]"Seokti and the others respect you, Kellhus continued. "Indeed as Mallahet you have a reputation that reaches across Kian and beyond. And you shine in the Third Sight. But secretly they all think you cursed by the Solitary God. Why else would the Water elude you?[/i:2iiarpgy] Also: [i:2iiarpgy]"Though your intellect could astound those about you and earn you access to their most priviliged counsels, the instance they found themselves beyond teh force of your presence, the undermining whispers rekindled. "He is weak'[/i:2iiarpgy] I wonder what is meant by shining in The Third Sight as well. view post

posted 06 Feb 2006, 00:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

Yes, Moenghus is recognized as a powerful Cishaurim, but there's more than one kind of power. As a Dûnyain, he would wield tremendous influence within the Cishaurim and gain knowledge rivaling that of Seökti himself. Due to his superior intellect, he would also be able to cast a large variety of spells, and perhaps even improve those few who depend on the intellect (i.e. Translating, which he used to arrange a meeting between Xerius and Skauras in TDTCB). When word of him reached, per example, the Imperial Court, the message would have lost its nuances and the knowledge and political power of Moenghus would be translated into power, period. That's why the Nansur called him so powerful that even the Cishaurim were afraid of him, that he would replace Seokti as Heresiarch if it wasn't of the Prophetic Law, etc. But the Psukhe is a metaphysic of the heart. You asked what is was the Moenghus lacked that the Cishaurim didn't; I'd say: sheer sorcerous power. As we've seen in TTT, a Cishaurim with a truly strong heart - and therefore bears large quantities of "Water" - can unleash power dwarfing even the Scarlet Spires'. But the Dûnyain? What little emotion they have, they enslave under the yoke of the intellect. Moenghus could likely cast any Psukari spell ever divised, but he could pass very little power into them. In other words, as wonderful and intimidating as he seemed in conversation, just about any high-ranking Cishaurim would be able to squash him in a sorcerous duel. Finally, you ask what shining in the Third Sight means. The Cishaurim call themselves the Possessors of the Third Sight (because of the way they blind themselves), so I think it refers to Moenghus' abilities with the intellectual Psukhe spells, as well as the superior understanding of the Psukhe he must've developed after becoming Cishaurim. view post

posted 07 Feb 2006, 19:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Couldn't have said it better myself, Twaleph. Man o' man, did I cook up a complicated little story or what? That's what happens when you scribble for 20 years without any real thought of publication. Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see [i:yuen3hbt]souls[/i:yuen3hbt] - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion... view post


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