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Explanation for Achamian's survival?? posted 27 Jan 2006, 03:01 by Andrew, Peralogue

I mentioned this in the other thread in this forum but the question is buried in all sort of other thoughts. My thinking is that Iyokus must have died and the Ciphrang freed to return to its home. On the other hand, i have trouble believing a character like Iyokus would be killed off without any description of circumstances of death. view post

posted 27 Jan 2006, 16:01 by Twayleph, Auditor

That confused me too, but then I realized that perhaps Iyokus [i:159glstn]intended[/i:159glstn] Achamian to survive. As the demon itself said, "An eye for an eye" ; just like Achamian avenged Xinemus by taking out Iyokyus' eyes (or so Iyokus must've perceived it), Iyokus, who had been overmatched and left crippled by Achamian, delivered the same fate to Achamian. Or perhaps Iyokus feared the reprisals if he ever killed the Warrior-Prophet's Vizier... view post

posted 27 Jan 2006, 23:01 by Nauticus, Auditor

I agree completely. He really gains nothing by killing Achamian. So instead, he wanted to prove his power was considerably equal to Achamian's Gnosis. I expect that will be played off in the Aspect-Emperor. view post

posted 28 Jan 2006, 01:01 by rycanada, Peralogue

I'm ... just not sure. The Ciphrang was bleeding just before Achamian fell... I just don't know if Iyokus "let him go" or if the Ciphrang was too wounded, or just got hit by some third party unseen. I wouldn't be surprised if this had to do with "Do you want to hear a secret?" said by the Old Name to the child picking up the remains of a shattered sorcerer on the battlefield. view post

posted 28 Jan 2006, 04:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, I'm entirely perplexed by Achamian's survival, but it is a good perplexed. It makes me want to know. Iyokus is definitly alive and the head of what remains of the Scarlet Spires it would appear. As to the Old Name, not sure what the secret is but perhaps the child is one of the Few and the Old Name is going to raise a new Consult Sorceror. :) view post

posted 28 Jan 2006, 04:01 by rycanada, Peralogue

One thing: I'd be highly upset if the shattered salted sorcerer being picked up by the child was Achamian, and the other was somehow a Consult spy with a soul. That would just suck (and I don't think it would be fair play, since Achamian is still tormented by dreams). view post

posted 05 Feb 2006, 21:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

I was also baffled by his survival. The reason is simply because of Scott's narrative. We learn that Achamian eventually loses the fight with the Ciphrang demon. It drags him away into the skies. Why does Achamian survive? Does the "trailing downward" mean that the Ciphrang perished before he could kill Achamian? It certainly seemed very intent on killing him. Cerrtainly there was mentioned made of it only being "an eye for an eye" but as we have seen, Achamian didn't lose his eye in exchange for what he did to Iyokus, so that can't have been it either. So how does he live? view post

posted 06 Feb 2006, 01:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

I wonder what it was in my explanation that you didn't find satisfying. I think Iyokus had very good reasons to let Achamian live, not the least of which the fear of retribution if he died. Achamian was the Warrior-Prophet's Vizier, and the Consort herself witnessed that it was a Ciphrang that attacked Achamian, so Iyokus probably thought he'd be in a world of trouble if Achamian died. As for the "Eye for an Eye", I don't think it should be taken litterally, as the will to take out an eye. Achamian and Iyokus have a history of vengeance : first Iyokus and the Scarlet mission torture Achamian, then Achamian destroys the compound and nearly kills Iyokus. Iyokus takes out Xinemus' eyes, Achamian does the same to him. I think the only "unsettled score" that Iyokus still saw was the humiliation of being so easily overmatched by Achamian, so he proved in spectacular fashion that he, too, possessed immense power. That doesn't mean that Iyokus wanted to kill Achamian - no more than Achamian truly wished to kill Iyokus. In that perspective, the "trailing downward" simply means that the Cihprang let Achamian down, crippled and far from Shimeh (and the help he would find there), to ponder his defeat. view post

posted 08 Feb 2006, 19:02 by Andrew, Peralogue

oops - got logged out. Last post was mine. view post

posted 08 Feb 2006, 23:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

[quote:15mokjed] we never hear him wonder how he survived[/quote:15mokjed] Very true, but also from that point on we never hear him wonder at all. I think most of Achamian's previous cares were knocked out by the recent events. Especially since the state he woke up in can't have made him particularly happy to be alive, what with the Fevers and the new, "improved" version of the Dreams. All he cared about at that moment was to find Esmenet, not dwell in the events of the past few days. view post

posted 10 Feb 2006, 12:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

I'm really not sure I understand your reply, Highman. You ask what is a Ciphrang; if you did read the PoN trilogy through I think it should be obvious that it's a demon. There are plenty of mentions of it before the battle - during the battle of the Iothiah compound, before the siege of Shimeh, in Iyokus' dialogues...Daimotic sorcerers like Iyokus summon them from the Outside. [quote:5s77xqqj]or is it just something you are supposed to accept, like any of the sorcerous cants.[/quote:5s77xqqj] Supposed to accept? How are you "supposed to accept" sorcerous cants or Ciphrang? Please state what you mean more extensively. view post

posted 10 Feb 2006, 19:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think he means when someone names a Cant but it's one you haven't explicitly seen, which is pretty rare really. We've seen examples of almost all of the Cants mentioned barring a few, at the very least many are sort of self-explanatory from the name whether we see it used or not. As for what they physically look like well... of it is Gnostic is is pretty much always going to be composed of abstract light and dazzling geometries :) lol. view post

posted 10 Feb 2006, 19:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

Ah, I understand better. Well in TWP they're named Daimotic Cants; I'm not sure they have a more precise name - perhaps the only difference between the summoning of different Demons would be the strenght of the incantations and the name of the Ciphrang included in the incantation. That, and the symbols inscribed unto the floor. As for they being Gnostic Cants, I'm pretty sure that Scott said that, though there were Gnostic Cants for the summoning of Agencies, the Anagogis has its own (presumably inferior) version of these cants. Since even Anagogic Cants seem able to summon the mightiest of the Ciphrang (Potents), I wonder in what way the Gnostic Cants would be superior... As for what they would look like...the arrival of the Ciphrang is described as a tempest, and it says light spills from Iyokus', not a very exhaustive decription, but it is consistent with Scott's style regarding physical descriptions - which I wouldn't want him to change. view post

posted 10 Feb 2006, 23:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, when I was talking about Cants I was talking about Cants in general, not in relation to the Daimos. :) The Daimos is a particular sub-branch of the Anagnosis, but yea the Gnosis can summon Agencies of the Outside as well. view post

posted 21 Feb 2006, 06:02 by Inner_visions, Candidate

The Gnosis is Abstraction in essence; I find it hard to believe they could bring something so concrete from the void... but you guys keep talking about 'summoning of Agencies'. Where might I find more specific imformation about this process? view post

posted 21 Feb 2006, 16:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Gnosis is based on abstraction, which is why Gnostic Cants are refered to as the Abstractions. As opposed to the Anagogic sorceries which rely on Analogy to work Sorcery. The same effects can basically be accomplished by both, but the Gnosis is much, much more powerful. (And there are things achievable by the Gnosis that are not achievable by the Anagogic Cantas I am sure.) The Daimos is a sub-school of Anagogic Sorcery but Scott has mentioned on the Q&A board I believe that it is possible to achieve the same results with the Gnosis. Agencies of the Outside refers to all inhabitants of the Outside, be they gods, demons, etc. I see no reason why the Gnosis could not summon such an entity just as the anagnosis can. TWP and TTT are the big sources for info on Agencies and the Outside, the glossary for TTT is pretty good as well. view post

posted 01 Mar 2006, 18:03 by Abyss, Commoner

Couple of thoughts.... Achamian lived because the Ciphang was not sent to kill him. Humble him, maybe. 'Possess' him in some subtle way, also maybe, but not kill him. Who knows, maybe Achy has this supposedly powerful demon riding shotgun in his body as of the end of the book. I have no trouble with the notion that Iyokus, as a sorceror who controls other beings, would enjoy the notion of having his own creature possess/control a Mandateman. Also, Achy could have easily killed Iyokus when he demanded his eyes instead. - Abyss, enjoyed the limited use of the demons in the story. view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 02:03 by Diem Kaye, Candidate

Was I the only one a bit surprised to see Iyokus alive at the end of the trilogy? I mean, here's a character who seems like he should've died plenty of times, but, just like the Energizer Bunny, he keeps going and going. And to be fair, if Akka had wanted to get revenge on Iyokus, he should've used the Cants of Compulsion rather than just take out Iyokus's eyes. 'Cause those cants seemed to be what really messed Zin up. view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 03:03 by Twayleph, Auditor

Abyss : although at first, I too believed that Iyokus had intentionally spared Achamian, from what Scott says here : it seems that Achamian really did survive the attack on his own. Also, I have a very hard time believing that one of Iyokus' demons could possess him. First off the Ciphrang seem very far off from the archetype of the "bad angel" possessing you and driving you to evil. Besides, I'm sure Seswatha wouldn't stand for another intruder inside Achamian's mind. Diem Kaye : I think there are very many reasons why Achamian took out Iyokus' eyes instead of using the Cants of Compulsion. First off I don't see putting out his eyes as being an act of vengeance on Achamian's part, but rather on Xinemus'. And like Achamian said, the compelled soul in no way feels compelled ; Xinemus kept blaming the loss of his eyes, and never even seemed to consider it was the Compulsions that drove him to his pathetic state, so for him the blinding seemed a far more satisfactory vengeance. Also, a passage in TTT seemed to indicate that the Cants of Compulsion weren't Achamian's specialty. Perhaps the Mandate deliberatly scorns them, seeing as how it was the Maengecca's specialty and they keep Dreaming of Seswatha being tortured with them. Finally, I don't think just casting the Cants of Compulsion is sufficient to break someone's mind; it's [i:2nbchjl3]using [/i:2nbchjl3]these Cants to drive the victim to acts contrary to his/her nature that can eventually break down his/her mind. Even though Eleäzaras gave him for death to Achamian's hand, I don't think the Scarlet Spires would just stand seeing Iyokus walking around and doing Achamian's bidding, or that Achamian would relish this sort of manipulation. view post

posted 02 Mar 2006, 04:03 by Diem Kaye, Candidate

Oh, I agree it would be completely against Achamian's character to use the Cants on Iyokus. I was just saying, that being blinded wasn't what drove Zin crazy. I mean, maybe it's just because we don't really get too many viewpoints from Iyokus, but throughout the story, he hardly seemed bothered by his blindness at all. (Compared to poor Zin, who holds Iyokus's eyes in front of his sockets while pretending to look at himself in the mirror.) I was just saying from the selfish viewpoint of a reader, it would've been nice to see Achamian torture the crap out of Iyokus. view post


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