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Cnaiur's sexuality-why is the topic so damn popular?? posted 21 Dec 2007, 10:12 by xatantius, Candidate

Most people on this forum will know the thread 'Topic:is Cnaiur gay?'. The thread currently stands at 9 pages long, which interests me immensely as to WHY we've spent so much time discussing a fictional character's sexual preference (me included), considering the following points: 1. He's had sex with men, women, alien-made soulless constructs...and the ground. As in, the stuff you're standing on. Mother Nature got fucked over-LITERALLY-by this guy. 2. Does it matter? While it does add to the story, it's not integral to it and it's a relatively minor part of the series. 3. Of all the men in PoN, why Cnaiur? Find me 3 male characters in the books who HAVEN'T exhibited homoerotic tendencies at some point-it's either explicitly stated, or insinuated in the same fashion that Cnaiur's sexuality is. 4. Despite the traumatising facts in Point 1, Cnaiur's sexual tendencies are fucking TAME compared to the kinky, sick, and just plain weird stuff some of the others get up to-look at Xerius, for instance. What a way to find out your mum has a big surprise for you, honestly. The Sranc will go for anything that bleeds and is rapable in a sickeningly violent way. And the INCHIROI. They screw just about anything, and somehow make the poor things LIKE it. ... ANYWAY! ... anyway. Your thoughts? I've got my own opinions as to why, but I'll let some comments build up before I throw in my two cents. Post away. Please no homophobia, heterophobia, flaming, whatever, you know. Srancophobia I will tolerate. Srancosexual-free zone! :twisted: view post

posted 21 Dec 2007, 10:12 by xatantius, Candidate

I just realised...the Cnaiur gay thread, thanks to me, now has a spinoff. ... w00t. 8) view post

posted 21 Dec 2007, 17:12 by Writer, Candidate

Well, I think it's partially because Cnauir is one of the most prominent characters. view post

posted 22 Dec 2007, 01:12 by Harrol, Moderator

I feel his insanity and inner turmoil leads him to do many weird acts as all lines blur i.e. what he did to the ground and later an emotionless or should I say an uncaring and cold skin spy. view post

posted 22 Dec 2007, 21:12 by Shell, Peralogue

Xatantius, I also have been facinated by this topic. Nobody discusses Moengus' sexuality, and he obviously had sex with men/boy (Cnaiur) and women. And I know there were references to Esmi, Serwe and Kellhus all in the same bed, but no "Are Esmi and Serwe lovers?" thread. Maybe its like when you go to your 20th high school class reunion, and you aren't surprised that the skinny guy who played the flute is gay, but you are surprised to hear that the captain of the football team is gay, or the guy who became the navy seal is gay. view post

posted 31 Dec 2007, 23:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

It's an interesting topic because this character's inner turmoil is one of the highlights of the series. As such, if you read the other thread on the topic, all of the questions that you asked would be answered. However, to add to the above comment, I think you're right. Bakker made this person gay, but he is not the typical, stereotypical homosexual. view post

posted 01 Jan 2008, 18:01 by Harrol, Moderator

True! If Cnaiur was the stereo typical gay guy there would be a lot of dead people in our world. view post

posted 10 Jan 2008, 07:01 by Uroborian Circles, Candidate

I think it's safe to say that Cnaiur's sexuality is, in part, what makes him so interesting and tragic. I don't think it has as much to do with his desires but his conflict. Imagine being what he is... I wouldn't think that war-worshiping plainsmen are to accepting of homosexuality and, being one of them, neither would he. Not to mention the nature of his first lover. Ever had a girlfriend that played mind games? He came-out to a Dunyain... It's sad. I mean the guy's not exactly afraid of getting his ass kicked. Or death. Or suffering. He's the Breaker-of-Horses-and-Men. Those are small things to him and he justifiably emanates a [i:gebf5ooz]sincere[/i:gebf5ooz] feeling of superiority over the wine drinking, word writing, self-righteous, effeminate bitch-men who would label themselves his peers. And yet... that automatic and inbred feeling of weakness at the notion that he's [i:gebf5ooz]just a faggot[/i:gebf5ooz]. view post

posted 10 Jan 2008, 16:01 by Shell, Peralogue

Interesting last post, but I can't agree that he is entirely homosexual - I'll give you bisexual at best. After all, he does have sex with women. He clearly lusts after Serwe, and doesn't seem to express disgust at sexual relations with females. Mind games with a Dunyain? Yikes! But then that begs the age-old debate of whether one is born gay, or made gay. We don't have any indication that Cnaiur was attracted to men before his encounter with Moehgus, so how can he really "come out" in the true sense? view post

posted 11 Jan 2008, 01:01 by Uroborian Circles, Candidate

Eh... Semantics. I suppose you could argue that nobody is entirely homosexual or heterosexual. Born or Bred... Attraction versus Repression... In the end Serwe was primarily illustrated as his [i:3n7lv37f]proof[/i:3n7lv37f] more than his passion. Moenghus was drawn as the one he gave his heart to, the one he really loved. In violent opposition to his more customary brides. Let's leave the brain chemistry of homosexuality out of this regardless, as no one knows enough about it anyway (I'll stick with Alfred Kinsey on the subject). Not to mention, to the horror of all, we might inadvertently draw the attention of some [i:3n7lv37f]idealist[/i:3n7lv37f]. Like sharks tasting blood anytime they have the prospect of spouting they're conveniently unverifiable and self-righteous anti-truths. Just another black road to Nihilism. "Lets destroy everything!!! Because it's not [i:3n7lv37f]good enough[/i:3n7lv37f]." view post

posted 11 Jan 2008, 08:01 by Curethan, Didact

I think peeps is mainly interested in Snorri himself, partly because he's such a well drawn character and also because the question of sexuality is a common interest among open minded folk. What makes a hero a hero? What makes one gay or straight? Cnaiur's story brings us internaly closer to these issues as we read. Is the homophobic footballer really a repressed gay man? etc etc I think he runs the gamut between engaging and repulsive, which are, for me, the ends of the spectrum of personality one percieves within themself. Sexuality is also a central issue within our lives, both our own and others - it seems natural that in such a conflicted character this would be the area where almost everyone finds something to discuss. Well, thats my thoughts on the original question. oh yeh, I just remembered - I once heard of a tribe (african, i think or maybe south american?) where the menfolk would ritualisticly hump the ground at the outset of spring to ensure the land's fertility. Its the same guys as wear those groovy penis-sheaths. Does that make them (and Cnaiur) gaia? hahahahahaha - choke on my awful pseudo pun view post

posted 11 Jan 2008, 17:01 by Shell, Peralogue

Maybe he was attracted to Moehgus because there was no violence attached to the relationship initially (actually, if I remember correctly, the violence was directed towards the baby and Cnair's mother) - he was a teenager at the time and that may have left more of an impression then the actual sex. If we say that his violence towards females may indicate repressed homosexuality, then the entire Scylevendi culture would be repressed as wife beating/raping seems to be the norm. Odd behavior seems to be gentleness in his relationship with Anissi (sp?) Yikes, have we attracted the attention of any idealist? I'd be more worried about the fundamentalists. view post

posted 15 Jan 2008, 16:01 by Uroborian Circles, Candidate

[quote="Shell":2ml812gs]If we say that his violence towards females may indicate repressed homosexuality, then the entire Scylevendi culture would be repressed as wife beating/raping seems to be the norm.[/quote:2ml812gs] Faulty logic. Repression for one could be convention for another. Or both. Or neither. Also... for clarification purposes maybe we should dump homosexual, bisexual, homo-erotic tendencies and all the rest in a basket called "gay." view post

posted 16 Jan 2008, 01:01 by Shell, Peralogue

Also faulty. It does not clarify anything to dump them into one basket and call it "gay". Ask anyone who is actually gay, or bisexual. or transgender, or whatever. view post

posted 16 Jan 2008, 09:01 by Uroborian Circles, Candidate

Sorry. That was just meant to be sarcastic. view post

posted 16 Jan 2008, 19:01 by Angainawen, Candidate

Jeez! This discussion is getting kinda rough here... Shell, I love you, doll, but I think you need to take a breather. And Uroborian, I think you should take five breathers, lol. This thread is about why people care about his sexuality and not whether he is or not, right? Granted this exchange surely shows how we all are adament about Cnaiur's sexuality, whatever side of the fence we are on, but it pulls away from the topic. Obviously we all see a personal connection to this debate in some way, probably because Cnaiur's sexuality is more prominently displayed and is an important element of his character. And no doubt, to some people (not me I will say that now), his sexuality helps to define whether we like or dislike the character. Like as was said before, the conflict within him makes him stick in our minds unlike Serwe and Esmi, which is obvious experimentation if you ask me, and the possibility of a relationship between Akka and his students (and you all should beat me to death for forgetting a certain student's name but I don't actually own the books still, sadly, so I cannot look it up right now). I also don't think any of us haven't had a moment at somepoint where we were unsure of our sexuality even for the briefest of moments, and those who refute that are probably in denial. Now, I know I am straight and prefer men but I have had moments of finding another woman attractive. It's normal to think and debate about what category we fit in because we categorize everything. Cnaiur's ambiguity messes with our personal schemas and so we feel like we need to categorize him, in whatever label we think fits. That is why "is cnaiur gay?" is nine pages long. Because we connect to the question since Bakker puts ambiguity in the foreground, like he has with Kellhus' amorality and with the unholiness of the Holy War. The whole book is about ripping apart establishments our societies have created and making us rethink them. Cnaiur's sexual ambiguity strikes against a heavily primal establishment of our species. And that confuses and in some ways frightens our fragile psyches. (can "psyche" be plural???) view post

posted 16 Jan 2008, 19:01 by Shell, Peralogue

Angainawen, Are you truly under 20? Because you have the insight of someone much older! I admit I do get an little annoyed over the whole "gay" thing as I have some very good friends who are gay, and lesbian (and if I know anyone who is trangendered or transexual they are doing a darn good job because I don't know who they are!). Being "40-ish" I had a class reunion recently and some of those who were teased without mercy for being perceived gay (you know, the skinny guy who played clarinet in the HS band) showed up and the same crap happened all over again. *Sigh* So, breather taken... view post

posted 16 Jan 2008, 21:01 by Uroborian Circles, Candidate

Yes... Well said Angainawen. I'm in a bi-sexual love-triangle myself and have a general interest in libido. The Inchoroi captivate me much the same although in a somewhat less... empathetic way. [quote="Angainawen":14shkvd1]can "psyche" be plural???[/quote:14shkvd1] Not if your Carl Jung... :wink: view post

posted 18 Jan 2008, 07:01 by Curethan, Didact

Nice post, Angainawen :D (It was Inrau, btw) view post

posted 25 Jan 2008, 19:01 by Angainawen, Candidate

Thanx all. ANd yes, I'm still nineteen. But I'm the mother figure for my old posse from High School, which is also has a mix of hetero-, homo-, bi-, and experimental sexual people, so I am used to mediating. [quote:13a061ke] Not if your Carl Jung... [/quote:13a061ke] Yeah Uroborian, I remember him from Psych class so that was a cute laugh. Thanx. :D view post

Re: Cnaiur's sexuality-why is the topic so damn popular?? posted 09 Jul 2008, 05:07 by Athjeari, Peralogue

Nice discussion/argument so far. I think it's quite simple why people are so interested in Cnaiur's sexuality. The man is the stereotypical alpha male! He is a warrior. According to our social norms warriors are usually not thought of to be gay. However, Cnaiur seems to be gay or at least bisexual. This conflicts with what is generally viewed as acceptable male behavior. Another reason why I think the topic is so talked about is because Cnaiur doesn't show emotion throughout most of the series. He does say that he loves one of his wives, but he still has no trouble leaving her and soon forgets about her. Suddenly in TTT Cnaiur runs into Moenghus and we finally see Cnaiur's fragile, emotional side come out. You can tell that Cnaiur really does/did love Moenghus. We even find out that Mo had a cute nickname for Cnaiur, Naiu. This is interesting because a man was able to make this other alpha male man become human and express emotion. These are two reasons why I feel that Cnaiur's sexuality is so discussed. It is controversial to say the least. At the end of TTT I almost felt sorry for Cnaiur because he was so angry with himself at falling in love with another man. Throughout the series I never felt sorry for Cnaiur up until that moment when he sees Moenghus again. It made me feel weird, feeling sorry for Cnaiur, because he is such a strong character. view post

Re: Cnaiur's sexuality-why is the topic so damn popular?? posted 09 Jul 2008, 15:07 by Almighty Tallest, Candidate

Cnaiur is not gay. However, the environment that he lives in, and the entire Three Seas, looks on male-on-male sexual relationships a lot differently than today's Western world. Achamian, remember, mentions one of his fellow Mandati who he loved, and they were lovers, for a time (mentioned once, about 2/3 of the way through WP, I think). Nobody questions Achamian's sexuality after that. The Nansur Columnaries rape Scylvendi prisoners before Kiyuth, and nobody questions that. I think the main concern is that Cnaiur is unused to expressing emotion, and deep, penetrating feelings are largley foreign to him. He feels the connection to Moenghus, and it is a strong one. But when it was forged Cnaiur was not wise enough to differentiate that connection from love. As he ages, if he thought about it long enough, he would realise that it wasn't truly love, but something else. So when he finally sees Moenghus after so long, after decades of thinking about the [i:1gre1sk4]actions[/i:1gre1sk4], and not the feelings that went into them, he is immediately thrown back to that state from thirty years prior. It is tempered with three decades of hatred and war, which confuses him. We don't really see what is happening from his perspective beyond the confusion in his thoughts, there is no meta-description here, letting us know why he is thinking such thoughts, or why he behaves the way he does. Moenghus' domination of Cnaiur was so complete that the Scylvendi cannot penetrate his own thoughts when they finally meet again. Where Cnaiur is usually very precise in his thought process, such acuity is impossible at this moment. view post


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