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About the Dunyain... posted 23 Jul 2009, 05:07 by sneroplex, Commoner

Okay, does anybody else really buy that the Dunyain are completely ignorant of sorcery and the first apocalypse and all these other things that Khellus claimed they don't believe in? For such an intelligent society it seems almost impossible to me that they wouldn't know about the existence of these things, I mean they must have known about them before they went into exile why would they all the sudden forget or just believe that sorcery doesn't exist? Perhaps the Dunyain are using their own members, ie Moenghus and Khellus as pawns when they send them into the world with these beliefs. Perhaps they've manipulated them and know what they're going to do and have plans for them later... view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 23 Jul 2009, 17:07 by Jerako, Candidate

You know that's a very interesting thought. I think it's certainly feasible. It seems, from that Prologue POV with Kellhus I think, that he knew the Dunyain [i:3mw6mmib]insisted[/i:3mw6mmib] it didn't work. Why would a society that thinks of "history" as anathema, continue to indoctrinate something they don't believe? I mean, if the early Dunyain did, that makes sense, but after a few generations none of the Dunyain would believe it to exist. So why continue to enforce the fact that it does not, in a society that already does not believe it exists? It's kind of illogical, I think, and the Dunyain are nothing if not illogical. I remember entertaining the idea that the quality the Dunyain are breeding for is being one of the few. What if the Defectives are merely those who can't work Sorcery, because the same thing that makes one sensitive to sorcery is the same that allows them to handle the training. We know that it has at least something to do with family traits, and the Dunyain have been interbreeding for thousands of years. view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 02 Aug 2009, 04:08 by Curethan, Didact

I agree - they carefully removed all traces when they moved in. I think that knowledge of sorcery is merely "reserved" until one has mastered the logos and moved into the upper echelons of the dunyain. view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 04 Aug 2009, 13:08 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I think even the highest ranks of the Dûnyain are truly ignorant of sorcery. Otherwise Kellhus would have been able to sense the Mark on them and would have later made the connection. Of course it's possible he did and it just wasn't told to the reader, but I doubt it. This erasing of information raises questions on just who was behind the thought processes that lead to the deliberate forgetting about the Outside and why. Honest search for the truth does not explain it. My theory is that the Dûnyain were a covert Consult organization so secret that even most of the Consult didn't know about it, even though its acts of assassination and sabotage had a massive effect on the war. I think Mekeritrig was likely the one responsible, but with his memory problems he doesn't remember it. He keeps notes though, and his meeting with Kellhus was no accident but part of his complex plan to bring about the triumph of the No-God and also to kill the last surviving Inchoroi. (The No-God is fine with the last part because of how incompetent the Consult has been. Kellhus didn't lie to Aurang about that.) Mekeritrig carefully constructed the Dûnyain society to resist change and guided the Dûnyain though magic wardings to Ishual, knowing that after a few thousand years his tools would have become refined and powerful indeed through the power of selective breeding while still remaining his tools. Mekeritrig made the darkness that came before the Dûnyain in order to predict their reactions and thus control them, and by extension, control the world. I like theories. :) view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 05 Aug 2009, 07:08 by Curethan, Didact

[quote="Nerdanel":2oridayu]I think even the highest ranks of the Dûnyain are truly ignorant of sorcery. Otherwise Kellhus would have been able to sense the Mark on them and would have later made the connection. Of course it's possible he did and it just wasn't told to the reader, but I doubt it. [/quote:2oridayu] That's assuming they (a) are practitioners and (b) visible at all to the lower echelons. As for your theory... awesome! I like theories too ;) view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 07 Aug 2009, 02:08 by sneroplex, Commoner

I think I recall reading somewhere that members of Dunyain society don't even come into contact with most of the pragmas, thus making it perfectly possible they would never see the mark on them. But then that begs the question that if Khellus has the mark, are there other Dunyain the same level as he who also have the mark? Do they even know what the mark is? Maybe they all have it, as Jerako suggested they might be breeding for it. Oh well, it's time to re-read The Thousandfold Thought! view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 07 Aug 2009, 06:08 by anor277, Didact

I think we've dealt with this question before, and it has been specifically addressed in the earliest novel. Granted there were individual Dunyain with the potential to be sorcerors, however, those individuals were all turned off (i.e. the ones whom Moenghus managed to contact by sorcerous dreams were manifestly "sorcerors"); the Pragma or someone insisted that they all commit suicide - I don't recall the details - as they were a threat to Ishual's isolation. The only exception was Kellhus, and he was despatched as an assassin of Moenghus, who had originally threatened the isolation of Ishual. view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 04 Dec 2009, 09:12 by Athjeari, Peralogue

But we have to assume that the Dunyain would know that similar experiences would bombard Kellhus as soon as he left Ishual. If Moenghus left and learned sorcery, why wouldn't Kellhus? The Pragma would have realized this too. By sending Kellhus they would be moving away from their goal of the Absolute because they wouldn't be self moving souls. Moenghus would be acting upon them. By sending Kellhus, the Pragma must have ulterior motives. I believe the Dunyain know and have more control over what is going on than we know. Kellhus is merely an instrument of the Dunyain in order for the Dunyain to become closer to obtaining the absolute. It also becomes nearly impossible to speculate, accurately, without knowing more of the Dunyain way of life, especially their power structure or organization. view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 06 Dec 2009, 06:12 by Jerako, Candidate

Agreed, Athjeari. We already know that Achamian is on his way to Ishual, I can't wait to see what he finds there. I would not be surprised if the Dunyain that Kellhus thought committed suicide after his departure because of "contamination," did not in fact do so. Some similar things have been nagging at me for a long time too. For example, for Mo to have sent the dreams to the Dunyain, and for the Dunyain [i:2ud9bk46]to have acted on them accordingly[/i:2ud9bk46], they must have accepted the existence of sorcery as the origin of their dreams. This is total speculation, but I believe that there are "sects," if you will, within the Dunyain. What I mean is that high-ranking Dunyain (perhaps not even all of them) withhold information from the trainees for various reasons, as in conditioning different Dunyain in different ways). I would not be surprised if they [i:2ud9bk46]intentionally[/i:2ud9bk46] taught Kellhus (Mo?) that sorcery didn't exist, knowing that it in fact did. (At least their own version of it, since they evidently destroyed the previous sorcerous texts upon arrival to Ishual. Kellhus practices creative sorcery, why couldn't the rest of them?) Only a Dunyain can decieve a Dunyain effectively. As I stated in a previous thread, I believe the Dunyain are breeding for the trait that grants sorcerous ability, because only the Few can survive the training (whether they do so for actual sorcerous practice or no). Why they would do this, however, I lack the information to guess. Like I said, just speculation. We can only wait until Scott finishes the rest of the series to know for sure. I think he's going to miss his deadline of finishing the Second Apocalypse before the real apocalypse :(. view post


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