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What is the Thousand-Fold Thought? posted 26 Aug 2004, 21:08 by Andrew, Peralogue

Here's what we know: 1. The "thought" is something Moenghus has discovered or thought up. - When Moenghus returned to Ishual, he was found to have been polluted by the world and was not allowed to return. - Moenghus is almost certainly a Cishaurim (so Kellus believes) The thousand-fold thought may be an extension of Dunyain philosophy, or it may be a realization that comes from living in the world. Personally, i favour the latter theory simply because if Moenghus discovered a powerful extension of Dunyain thought, he would not have been rejected. 2. Kellus recognized the thousand-fold thought when he came down from the tree. - when he came down, he was revered as a warrior prophet, however, the reverence alone cannot have anything to do with TTT because he had that reverence before. - when he came down, he seems to have accepted that he IS the WP, or the Harbinger - in which case TTT may be that what comes after can determine what comes before. - Hanging from the tree, 3 major things happened to Kellus: first, he was able to spot and communicate with Akka even though Akka was walking in sorcery - the Puske is a kind of thought/mental sorcery, as opposed to the Gnosis/anagogis which is spoken - potentially, Kellus is here delving into/awakening into rudimentaries of the Puskhe. Thus something related to the sorcery may have to do with TTT. Second, Kellus experienced the visions of the No-God - an ape with hands folded like a monk sitting under a tree - the words "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" etc. Significance of this? I think Kellus is realizing that what he is, what the Dunyain are, is basically the same as what the No-god is. IMO there is no real difference - each will use and destroy anything to achieve its goals. consider that the vision of the no-god took place while kellus hung under a tree, and the no-god was crouching under a tree. consider the no-god had a monk-aspect, Kellus is a dunyain monk etc. Third, Kellus lost control and sobbed for Serwe - 'his face beaten into a strangers face' - this indicates an ACTUAL experience of sorrow. The "secret of battle" cannot be TTT because Kellus knew about it long ago. I think TTT is related to actually becoming human - experiencing sorrow etc - realizing that the Dunyain as as 'enslaved' to mission as worldborn men are to their feelings - Darkness comes before everything, the question is what will you be ruled by? The emotion of men, or the indifferent mission of the Dunyain, an indifference which ultimately leaves the Dunyain morally as no different from the No-God. view post

posted 27 Oct 2004, 22:10 by Inner_visions, Candidate

Awsome thoughts man. I was thinking around the same thing but, I never conected the No-God to that much. I stilll don't but it is a well standing argument. view post

posted 02 Nov 2004, 05:11 by Andrew, Peralogue

Excellent. I've fooled them all. And it only took a mere 2 months for them to fall into my trap. view post

posted 04 Nov 2004, 23:11 by saintjon, Auditor

Blast this stupid thing! that was me. Sorry to go off the topic of the thread but all that about the consult jumped at me suddenly and I had to type it. view post

posted 31 Mar 2005, 01:03 by Cynadar, Candidate

Thread's been dead since november it seems, but I'll post my thoughts on the Thousandfold thought anyway. I think the thousandfold thought deals with Kellhus' ability to manipulate and even think with the thousands of minds that he is able to control. Does that sound like a real possibility? view post

posted 27 Apr 2005, 00:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

I think the thousandfold thought is the realization of the Logos, i.e. the knowledge one has reached the Logos. The object of the Dunyain is the discovery of the Logos, or, in other words, to become "self-moving souls", utterly free from the constraints of the world but also possessed of profound knowledge, and the fact that Kellhus, after coming down from that tree says (or thinks) among other things that he encompasses all the Three Seas, and that there are no obstacles or limits for him argues that he has actually discovered the Logos (along with Moenghus perhaps). Now one has also to think on the nature of the Logos itself, at least in the context of the world of Earwa, since I can find in Scott's writing so many echoes of real-life mythology and philosophy, but with a totally different, syncretic shape that makes predictions of any sort very tough. The concept of Logos exists in the metaphysics of the ancient Greek philosophers, it exists in the metaphysics of heretical Christians (the Gnostics), and the Logos (or Eternal Wisdom) is something that can be [i:11licutd]incarnated[/i:11licutd] into a human vessel. Since we know so little about the metaphysics of Earwa (and incidentally it's what TTT will mostly be about) we don't yet know whether you can attain the Logos through what the Dunyain have been doing (training mind and body) or if only a chosen person can get it through the intercession of some Deity from the Outside. As things stand, I'm of a mind to think that only Kellhus, as some sort of champion of the God actually has or can know the Logos, since it will be of great help in fighting the No-God . . . Then again I'm also close to thinking that Kellhus himself may be an avatar of the God (remember Serwe mentioning that in the days of the Tusk men knew the gods and the gods walked among men [i:11licutd]as [/i:11licutd]men). Ultimately, though, I think that this esoteric dimension of the story is much more important than the religious/ethical musings the protagonists make. We know so little on the Outside or better yet the ultimate rules and underpinnings of the whole reality of Earwa and the other dimension/s (such as the Outside). Once we know more we'll be able to explain not only if the Dunyain themselves are deluded in thinking they can attain the Logos but also the nature of Kellhus (Messiah/Prophet, son of God/god incarnated or whatever). Sorry for my incoherent ramblings (I'm half-asleep right now :)). Hope to hear what you think specifically on my idea on the thousandfold thought, and of course your take on where we might expect the storyline to go in relation to the metaphysics of Earwa. view post

posted 07 Jul 2005, 02:07 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Odin":3pwkmyso][quote="Cynadar":3pwkmyso]Thread's been dead since november it seems, but I'll post my thoughts on the Thousandfold thought anyway. I think the thousandfold thought deals with Kellhus' ability to manipulate and even think with the thousands of minds that he is able to control. Does that sound like a real possibility?[/quote:3pwkmyso] I couldn't be sure...but I think both this and the bit in the original post for this thread (the part about possibly the Dunyain being similar to the No-God) have a bit of truth in them. During the Seswathan dreams described, it mentioned that Mog-Pharau was speaking through the thousands of Sranc everywhere. It is also said in TWP that Kellhus actually spoke though the two women (can't remember exactly where, but it happened). Perhaps Kellhus is but at the beginning stages?[/quote:3pwkmyso] You're taking that description too literally. What Kellhus did was influence Esmenet and Serwe in such a way that they would unconsciously say the things he needed them to say to advance his cause, not that he had possession of them and was literally speaking through them. So you cannot link Kellhus to the No-God's ability to speak through Inchoroi creations. view post

posted 07 Jul 2005, 16:07 by saintjon, Auditor

I think there is a fundamental difference between Dunyain and No-God though. The definitive, empowering thing about the Dunyain is that they know EXACTLY what other people see. view post

A hundred parallel dreams of act and consequence? posted 05 Aug 2005, 11:08 by cabersau, Commoner

Kellhus blinked and, in that instant, plunged away from the slops, sky and wind, and dreamed a hundred parallel dreams of act and consequence, chasing threads of probability. Is this similar to the Thousand-Fold Thought? view post

posted 10 Aug 2005, 19:08 by sinclair, Commoner

If the Dunyain are as enlightend as the portend and they are above the trappings of a normal persons narrow paths. Then what paths do they follow? They either follow some Dunyain path, which no matter how narrow or wide clearly makes them vunerable, or they follow no path which leaves them with out reason. Therefore why would they have their secret society in the first place, which is bent on control. I als find the most curious charachter in the novel, cnaiur. He sees and understands the Dunyain, maybe not to any great depths his plans, but he does understand, and it strikes me his path is similar, but without the deciet. His driving factor is revenge, without that he would be nothing. Untill he found another reason. He is the example, khellus is the question. He wants power that much is clear. The training of his youth was bent to controlling others. But for what. Is what the Dunyain plan any better than what the consult plan. If they try to break te world free from their shackles and paths. Where will they be. If all men were Dunyain, the training of Dunyain would no longer have purpose. What reason would then be pusued. view post

posted 08 Sep 2005, 00:09 by Tobias Zhiegler, Commoner

After coming to a speculation, stemming from two seperate examples, I have reached the conclusion that it is quite possible that the Thousand-fold Thought in itself is a transformed means of thinking, a...sudden grasping or manipulation of multiple people. I personally believe the Thousand-fold Thought to be an extension of the elements that Anasurimbor Kellhus has been using throughout the entirety of his stay outside of his seclusion with his Dunyain brothers. Since he has been on the outside we have all been witnesses to his remarkably above average abilities of emotion manipulation (which has led to him literally enthralling those around him), emotion reading, (which at times has assisted him in reading the thoughts of those around him), he has also shown a considerable amount forethought. I think the Thousand-fold Thought to be a means of extending, amplifying, or even evolving the skills that he has used throughout the story. Constantly, we see the author giving descriptions, interestingly using "thousands" as a means of describing a puzzle that Khellus needs to think through, but cannot at that point in time due to the variety of variables and possibilities that he cannot possibly consider simultaneously. I believe the Thousand-Fold Thought to be a means of grasping, manipulating, and/or reading the surrounding masses, which is a feat, even for Khellus, when taking into consideration that in most general instances he does these things on a "one-at-a-time" basis. The first true sign of the Thousand-fold Thought that we get is unfortunately at the end of the Warrior-Prophet, but this in itself is enough to substantiate my guesses. When the people, all at once began to fall under his title, kneeling to him under the belief that he was a great lord, and truly the Warrior Prophet, though we know these titles to be a lie. And we also know that were it not for the fact that he could see through the skin-spies, there would be no real reasoning for them to keep him alive, or for them to believe him to be something more than he is. This is an example of mass manipulation. Before, he only did this in smaller numbers, (i.e the council with the surrounding leaders, or individual peoples, etc) same with Moengus, but perhaps, the Thousand-fold Thought is when they attain the ability to perform these feats on greater scale. The first time I believe he actually used the Thousand-fold Thought, or was able to taste the theoretical power it possess was in the war in Anwurat. I specifically remember after handling the assassins that Ikurei Conphas sent to get rid of Khellus, that Khellus began to fully read and grasp the situation on the battlefield, and came to the realization that, and I quote "war is conviction". The reason I believe the Thousand-fold Thought is being used in this situation is the example of the Thousand-fold Thought given later in the book, the ever mysterious haloed hands, which I believe to be a represenation of its almost divine power. If this is, indeed what the Thousand-fold Thought happens to be, I would think Khellus to definitely be a god of sorts, the haloed hand does little more than further my suspicions, seeing as how haloes are generally a sign of divinity. view post

posted 22 Sep 2005, 15:09 by Niwatam, Commoner

I think the haloed hands is just a way to show that the people around him think him to be divine. view post

posted 24 Sep 2005, 22:09 by RiderOnTheStorm, Candidate

I find similarities b/n TTT and Asimov's Pyschohistory as put forth in the Foundation series. There are times in the book where Kellhus is in a probability trance but is unable to parse all the variables and arrive at a likely conclusion. Pyschohistory or TTT would be a way of being able to break through his current limitations and have his mind take on the acuity of a demi-god. Allowing him, along w/his father, unprecedented ability to accurately predict teh actions of massive amounts of ppl as a whole and individuals in particular due to their already extensive training in reading the thoughts/emotions and thus minds of ppl. Given the scale of what the 2nd apocalypse will entail i think that this ability will be critical to Kellhus and Moe's chances of defeating the No-God and the consult. Just some random thoughts... view post

posted 11 Oct 2005, 08:10 by FAU5TU5, Commoner

Tobias' points sound most in line with my interpretation of the TTT. (its late so I will skip attepts at eloquence ) Dunyians charachteristics of thought seem to seperate them from MEN, (they are, what was the term, defectives?") much more like mmmm. NonMen might be in mind, and definitely like the Consult seem to be in some ways; without compassion or heart. Also the Dunyians had people with their faces removed to study, and there was a certain other group who remove faces for the lining of their cloaks etc. This can't be mere coincidence. Kellus did indeed seem to be showing the ability to speak telepathicly, as well as on occassion (at least in illusion) through others. If this were amplified say a thousand fold, then you do have something of a weapon/ power. Now my question is lies again with what one of the first posts brings up with the potential crossing of the cold inhuman Dunyian mind/no-soul of the LOGOS and the Real world of passion and people life and death. Is the thousand fold thought on the path of the LOGOS ?? or Away From it?? If it means that Kellus actually takes an interest in the outcome of things and affecting destiny, then isnt he in a way going agains his core training? Or am I just loopy without sleep??? view post

posted 12 Oct 2005, 21:10 by Tobias Zhiegler, Commoner

It is written: "Is the thousand fold thought on the path of the LOGOS ?? or Away From it?? If it means that Kellus actually takes an interest in the outcome of things and affecting destiny, then isnt he in a way going agains his core training?" To answer your first couple of questions, I am very, very close to positive that The Thousand-fold Thought in itself falls under the precepts set by the Logos which is, "the shortest path", if my theory as to what The Thousand-fold Thought is reigns true. It would give him the ability to grasp multiple scenarios and find the heart of the matter and react instantly and perfectly to it. But in the same thought, I must also believe that in order to find the true incarnation of the Logos (which, I would suspect to be The Thousand-fold Thought), you must subside to certain emotions, and feelings that are considered blasphemous to the Dunyain. I think throughout the entirety of the Dunyain's existence, they have only a slight grasping of the Logos, and what powers it may contain; and I believe the reason for this is because they have secluded themselves, and greatly limited not only their possible experiences and contacts, but they have almost entirely eliminated need for anything beyond what they have, because they truly believe themselves to be wholly enlightened when they, in all actuality aren't. When Anasurimbor Moengus, and Kellhus departed from the company, and seclusion that is inherent to being a member of the Dunyain, they opened themselves to a foray of puzzles, possibilities, and conflicts, but there are two very important things that they did when they left their order: they learned, and they refined. They learned of the existence of sorcery, they learned of certain discrepancies of the teachings of their order, they learned in what aspects their order was correct, and they learned the customs and ways of men, in order to better beguile them. But, also, they refined. They refined their abilities to read men, and identify emotion, and they even began to become more refined physically, and mentally. In the first 100-200 days of his journey when Khellus left the confines of the Dunyain order, it was stated that his senses grew, and that his mind and body became sharp. In essence, both he and his father were beasts that had long been caged, knowing that they had power, but never having an arena to use it, and never being wholly able to truly understand what the limits of their abilities were. I suspect the entirety of the Dunyain or as such. We saw in the Warrior-Prophet Khellus reaching obstacles that were beyond his training, beyond the small increments of the Logos he and his order grasped, and he saw need to go beyond...and thus, the birth of the Thousand-fold Thought, as I see it. It's not a willed action, I don't believe, it's something that is gained through a true test of the Logos, through a refined version of the techniques he has implored in a smaller manner, that I believe I explained to some extent on my previous post. When this is accomplished...that is the time I think it is received. Now as for your last question, I have doubts that Khellus has actually strayed from his order at all. Ever so often we get hints of the Khellus that Cnaiur fears, and we all should know by now not to trust Khellus' looks, or words, moving and emotional as they may be, they are no more than performances from an exceptionally good actor. And with the Thousand-fold Thought, he's not so much betraying his order, as he is using a new weapon in his arsenal to complete the mission given to him, which is, to assassinate his father, something I recall him specifically thinking (his thoughts being FAR more believable and true to his frame of mind than his words). I really don't think he cares for the destiny of the planet, I think the ONLY reason he is bothering with the skin-spies and other "outlander" matters is because they directly involve his life, and the Holy Wars conquest of Shimeh, and considering if either of these fail in some way, his mission is lost. That concludes my thoughts. view post


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