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Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 29 March 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

The government dictates who can marry because the church is too irresponsible to make that decision.

I'll go back to an earlier analogy (and modify it slightly for my purpose):

What if a 60 year old man wanted to marry an 8 year old girl and he found a church that condoned that behaviour? Now, assume that the girl's parents belonged to that same church and 'allowed' that man to marry their daughter.

Organized religions pass laws based on mythological precedence. This is imperfect for a couple of reasons:
1) Mythos doesn't change or evolve. What was considered acceptable 2000 years ago might not be considered acceptable today.
2) Mythos is created in the mind. In the mind, anything can be considered 'true' or 'correct'. But that doesn't mean that these things translate correctly in the real world.

Government (when at its most perfect state) passes laws based on facts, protection, free-will, and morality. If given the choice, I'd rather sleep with a beast I know than a beast I only think I know. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 01 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Wil, Head Moderator

Quote: "Echoex":10mn4tax

Marriage laws are in place to protect more than just gender.

Opponents argue that -- once the current definition of marriage is changed -- it leaves room for the entire definition of marriage to erode to nothingness.[/quote:10mn4tax]

I know that you are playing devil's advocate, but the above argument is a "slippery slope" argument and is considered an illegitimate use of the "if-then" operator. I do not think it is fair to say that allowing homosexuals to marry will cause the meaning of marriage to erode into nothingness just like I do not think that letting women vote will erode the definition of voting. To take another's argument and taking it to the complete extreme is not fair and I think its dirty debating. Just my two cents. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 04 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

Oh, I agree with you (to a point). I certainly don't believe that allowing same-sex marriage will cause any significant snags in our moral fabric. I'm a 'worst-case scenerio' kind of guy and approach each situation as such.

You're from the United States. I'm amused that you're not a little more gun-shy on this topic, considering the United States' history of abuse of its own Bill of Rights. Perhaps if someone had played the devil's advocate on that fateful September 25th, 1789, there would have been a 13th Amendment that would have went something like:
"No man or woman, having spilled a hot beverage on him or herself by his or her own stupidity, shall place blame for that stupidity on the establishment where which that beverage was purchased..."

Or perhaps:
"No persons who have knowingly eaten too much fast food and grown obese as a result, may charge another human being for his or her own lack of restraint. Instead, that person must 'suck it up' and take responsibility for his or her inability to function in a logical society."

The moral of this story is that the most extreme and seemingly unbelievable results come from the slightest of decisions. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 05 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Wil, Head Moderator

To be fair, in the McDonalds case, the store in question was keeping the coffee at above regulation temperature so they did not have to make more. Not to mention their containers are for shit.

(I do not believe that it was appropriate for her to sue the company, she did put it between her legs after all)


I'm confused, what were you suprised I wasn't gun-shy of? view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 05 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

Sorry. I was a little vague. I'm surprised that you were so blatant in dressing me down for my earlier comments.

I would think that -- coming from a nation where the worst-case scenario is the norm -- you would have supported someone who examines all possible outcomes. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 11 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Wil, Head Moderator

I apologize if you thought I was being agressive, I in no way ment to.

This is a sensitive subject for me, as a Gay Male American. I can get a little defensive because I feel like it is my rights that are being denied. I also cannot stand the "slippery-slope" argument because it applies to almost all situations and you can use it in any way you want to get the resutls you want. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 21 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

No offence taken, I assure you. I appreciate healthy debate.

I'll find another context, and perhaps you can offer me your position on the subject.

The Miss America Pageant is designated for women between a certain age-range. We're talking women who were born women.

Assume, now, that a pre-op transgender male (who is absolutely certain he/she is supposed to be a woman) wants to enter the contest. Let's also assume that this transgender male has fulfilled all the prior requirements to entering the contest.

Is it a violation of his/her rights if they deny him/her that opportunity? view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 21 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Scilvenas, Auditor

Well, if said transgendered person had already won all the contests that would allow him to enter the Miss World pageant, he's obviously good. If he can compete, why not? Unless we all just admit that the only reason we really watch such things are for the hot chicks and ensuing carnal desires that arise. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 27 April 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

I watch it for the hot chicks. I wouldn't want to be the lucky fellow who unwraps that Lil' Debbie Snack Cake only to discover a wiener in my twinkie.

Assume that this transgender somehow slipped past all the pre-pageant qualifications some how. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 02 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by neongrey, Peralogue

So they look exactly like a woman. They act exactly like a woman. In six months or a year, they're going to -be- a woman.

I don't see a problem. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 02 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

Really? Okay. Let's change the context (yet again).

A straight male picks up a post-op transgender at a bar under the assumption that this transgender is, and always has been, a female. Is that transgender under any obligation to reveal his/her dark little secret? view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 03 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by neongrey, Peralogue

Obligation? No.

I think it would be -nice- of them, if any real relationship came of it, but I don't see that they should feel they have to. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 05 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

So if you found out somehow, would you stay with that person? And answer honestly. It's easy to take the moral high-road and say "love is love", but the desire for humans to codepend on like-sexually oriented humans is too strong. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 08 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by sciborg2, Candidate

A post-trans person *should* tell the person they are going out with. Now, if its just casual sex or less, its more grey in my mind. I'd like to know if the person I'm with was born a certain gender or not.

As for gay marriage, I have no problems with it. Now, I don't think anyone should get any marriage benefits for at least five years, unless they have children in that time. But anyone raising a child should get benefits.

What I hate is the idea that marriage is some magical solution to problems that are created through economic decisions. The end truth is that gay marriage is a smoke screen for the abuse of corporate/governmental power by both parties. But people are apparently dumb enough to believe you can feed your starving children homophobia. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 09 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by neongrey, Peralogue

Quote: "Echoex":3gew7iqj
So if you found out somehow, would you stay with that person? And answer honestly. It's easy to take the moral high-road and say "love is love", but the desire for humans to codepend on like-sexually oriented humans is too strong.[/quote:3gew7iqj]

Depends on the circumstances, on how it was kept from me, and on how the relationship was going, and so on and so forth.

In the end, if I did dump him, it would probably because such a majour, life-affecting event was kept from me, and not from something like 'he used to be a girl'. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 12 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by Echoex, Auditor

Well, kudos to everyone for successfully painting over their real feelings.

I'll be the lone dog who bites the baby.

If I found out that my girlfriend / wife / lover (whatever) used to be another gender, I would run. I would rinse my mouth out with cyanide and Javex, and I would scrub my flesh to pristine bloody shreds with sulphuric acid and an SOS pad.

When I was young and I learned that Muffy from "Today's Special" was actually a little boy mouse, I was upset because it fractured my own inherent understanding of gender-identification. view post


Gay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? posted 17 May 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionGay marriage: for or against its legalization in the US? by neongrey, Peralogue

My morals are clearly different than yours. Please do not state my feelings are not 'real' simply because you feel differently. view post


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