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Those wacky Dunyain, sorcery and other ramblings posted 06 Apr 2007, 03:04 by Curethan, Didact

I think the Dunyain and speculation thereof deserves its own thread, seeing as it keeps taking over other threads. Some things about the Dunyain just don't add up, and this is not the case with the world that Scott has built, which is why they nag at me so. Many seem satisfied with what they know, and seem happy to accept them as they are portrayed by Kellhus. However consider this, the Dunyain are [i:3cgwdqf2]conditioned[/i:3cgwdqf2], they walk conditioned ground - up to a point... Someone is preparing their conditioning, accumulating knowledge over the centuries to improve and advance their treining. Compare modern teaching, your lecturing restricts what u are taught - primarily to the subject he has mastered - parcelling out tidbits at a time, growing your knowledge until you are ready to master deeper mysterys. Beyond that however, he is aware of many other things pursuant and otherwise to your education that you are ignorant of and will not learn in his class if at all - teaching methodologies, current research, changes in established hypothoses etc. Assuming that Kellhus' information on the Dunyain (and thus what we know) is complete is very unlikely. Just because Kellhus and Mo knew nothing of sorcery means nothing. The Dunyain's goal does not require it - in fact its elimination from their training is axiomatic. They seek enlightenment through reason - the logos, mastering the darkness that comes before - defeating the bonds the heart. Their teachers are obviously failures, yet they advance the knowledge of their sudents. At a certain point, obviously, a dunyain student can be considered to have completed his training - yet has not become a self moving soul, and is not executed as a failure, becoming a teacher to the next generation. At this point, knowledge of the outside, history, sorcery etc would no longer be required to be forbidden, would in fact be beneficial to preserving the Dunyain. Anyway, here's a couple of the points I've been considering recently. Add more. 1. Dunyain means 'truth' in ancient kunuric, the ascetic order was well founded, and had probably established their primary goals by the time they came to Ishual, a non-men mansion in the shadow of Golgotteroth, (a strange direction for refugees to head in..) and co-incidentaly the refuge of the Anasurimbor Dynasty. I think its safe to assume that it is well hidden, and not just by its location - but by sourcerous non-men wards as well. Why Isual? No-one else has just 'stumbled' across it... 2. Why send Mo (a star pupil) out scouting? From what I've said above one of the teachers or the Pragma himself would be far more logical. Comtamination of a student would usually lead to death - but Moenghus is instead allowed to leave - potentialy exposing the Dunyain and Ishual, a far greater risk than some wandering Sranc. Mebe Mo was sent just in case there might have been something to those ancient prophecies etc - at least they could keep Kelhus that way... it occures to me that breeding would have been ordered amongst the Dunyain, and that Kellhus have only just been born when Mo was sent on his little 'mission'. view post

posted 27 Apr 2007, 15:04 by poeg, Commoner

What if all the Dunyain have to train/learn is perception and sequence of events. Two lessons which open up all things and after 2000 years of refinement... The success of a school is not in handing its students specific knowledge but in opening up each students ability to learn and the greatest part of which is problem solving. Knowing all the parts of a thing does not mean you can fix it or even make best use of it, knowing how to solve a problem does. Whomever best sees the use of "if-then-else" always wins. Why send Mo? The proper tool is always the one best suited to solving the problem at hand. view post

posted 24 Jun 2007, 04:06 by non-Ajencis, Commoner

One thing that fascinated me about Kellhus, and the Dunyain is their complete naivete. They work on their mission in total oblivion. In a vacuum. Once Kellhus leaves the "monastery" he is at the mercy of strangers, and also depends on the kindness of strangers. I cannot call Kellhus a protagonist, he has no human, or humane qualities. He is the main character, I believe, but he is not the hero, or villain. This is what makes this story so compelling, frustrating, maddening, and ultimately original. You want to like this guy (this thing?) but he is not human. He has no morals, except the ones he learns to use for his own purposes. A sociopath of the highest order. God...I see myself sometimes in his lack of compassion, of his humanity, and it scares me that I can be callous. By the end of TTT, I came to some kind of equilibrium with his character, and came to understand him as a device, not a character. I don't hate him, nor do I love him. He just IS. Like the weather. A force of nature. The Dunyain , I think, seem to be a malformed , and mal-evolved entity. Knowledge sought at the expense of anything human to view it through. Pure knowledge, un-filtered. No right, no wrong. I think Kellhus, and the Dunyain are an abomination that I can only liken to something from Dune. Kellhus is the Quisatz Hadderach. God Emperor. Anyone see a similarity? Shit...I have not read Dune in many a moon. I think I'll read it again for the umpteenth time. That was a seminal book. view post

posted 24 Jun 2007, 04:06 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:18x8bdyq]I think Kellhus, and the Dunyain are an abomination that I can only liken to something from Dune. Kellhus is the Quisatz Hadderach. God Emperor. Anyone see a similarity? Shit...I have not read Dune in many a moon. I think I'll read it again for the umpteenth time. That was a seminal book.[/quote:18x8bdyq] The Kwisatz Haderach was different because he was human and possessed feelings, hence why he could not continue the Golden Path as his son later did. The point is that both the God Emperor and the Kwisatz Haderach were forced to sacrifice emotions, for the Golden Path, whereas Kellhus does share these. Though not to say I dont see the other many similarities between Dune and PoN, such as the Dunyain and Bene Gesserit. view post

posted 24 Jun 2007, 21:06 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

What strikes me most about the Dûnyain is how they in their pursuit of total freedom have been forming themselves into perfect tools. The ideal Dûnyain is like a highly capable machine unswayable by love or pity or passing whims. They are like the skin-spies, but more effective and harder to detect. They are devoted into manipulating others, but they are blind to see how their own preconceptions chain them far tighter than any mundane religion or habit. It is telling that the word "Dûnyain" means "Truth", and I don't think that's any more objective or closer to the fundamental truths than the similarly manipulatively named "Objectivism". A Dûnyain will strive to control everyone and everything around him, turning them into extensions of his will, and in turn extensions of the mold implied by the Dûnyain philosophy, making the whole shebang far easier to predict and control behind the scenes for someone who knows what's makes a Dûnyain tick. I think it may not be a coincidence that the words "Logos" and "Lokung" are so close to each other. Yes, I'm saying that like the Scylvendi, the Dûnyain follow on a path set by the No-God. Despite the superficial differences between the two, both are fine examples of the D&D term Lawful Evil. Kellhus also observed that the warlike Scylvendi culture was stable to a curious degree. The Dûnyain culture has also been essentially changeless for two thousand years. I think they are both results of skillful memetic engineering. Of course this raises the question of why the Consult has been ignorant of the Dûnyain. My answer is that during the Apocalypse the Consult was just that, a mere [i:tzfhgsiv]consultative[/i:tzfhgsiv] (and even that may have been the Consult being as self-aggrandizing as they possibly could without offending their master) agency to the No-God who called the shots. Since I think the No-God has been sorely underestimated by this board, I don't think beyond the reach of possibility that most of the Consult has been out of the loop for certain intrigues during the Apocalypse. (I think Mekeritrig knew, however, based on his showing in the Prologue, although he may have forgotten since.) During the Apocalypse the generals of the good guys had a hard time avoiding getting murdered, and there was also that mysterious burning of ships that was never solved. That suggests an undercover group of bad guys, and I think those were the Dûnyain, posing as harmless monks, which I suppose they were once upon a time before they were converted to their "Truth". I think the Dûnyain were directed by the No-God to Ishuäl. I think their purpose was to take in the heir of the Anasûrimbor line in order to co-opt the prophecy and make the destined return to be a sign of doom rather than hope. The fulfilling of the prophecy then got delayed far more than anyone had anticipated, but the Dûnyain kept to their purpose. view post


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