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Free will and Sorcery posted 02 Dec 2006, 19:12 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Through out the history of our dimension there have been mass murders and massive wars in the name of something holy. Even in this country, we have seen men and women tortured and killed for the fear of witchcraft. The realm of PoN presents us with the sames fears but a different scenario. The school men live among the population but they are damned. Of course being damned by something you dont believe is hardly threatening. I often find myself wondering what I would do in the case that I had the opportunity to become a mandate schoolman. Although I hold beliefs much like the Men of the Tusk, the powers of sorcery and philosophical sorcery at that, sound very tempting. So this choice puts to the test your very faith! Is there a rigth choice, a shortest path, or is Drusas Achamain right? Are the doubters the ones for which salvation will come? view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 18:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

Well, I see your dilemma. Personally, I think organized religion is a little...shall I say 'hokey'? If you look back in time to religion, it was a means to explain the unexplicable. The things we dont understand. This worked well for awhile. Then, philosophers started investigating and realizing that those reasons weren't always the answers. This is seen very big in Greek mythology. Religion has also been used to control the masses. Imagine what havoc the would be unleashed if we found absolute undeniable proof that all religion was bogus. The implication would cause absolute chaos. However, we know that not all believe in god. This would be a set of morals and innate good nature that i believe all humans possess. Of course all this could be argued and I don't believe a full discussion is warranted, at least not yet. On the aspect of sorcery...hmm. The prospect of power above what we have recognized ourselves to have has always been tempting. In the bible it speaks against sorcery and so forth. If you believe in the bible as absolute truth, does that mean that men are capable of such things? At least on some level. Is this prospect worth searching for real truth? view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 18:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

This may be a bit off the topic, but what would happen if organized religion and religion in general did not exist from the beginning, we would still war, murder, etc. but in what name would we do so? That will probably never happen though. It may seem outright insane but I personally believe that man is capable of sorcery or something of it, though it would be very difficult for most to comprehend let alone learn how. Magic is nature in the defiance of science. If sorcery was real, or is for that matter, imagine what would happen if the masses knew and believed it. I assume it would be just like medieval times again with the witch burnings. Off topic again, but I'm curious about this; In ancient times cultures combined their religion and religious rituals with magic or sorcery and it was accepted, ie. Ancient Egypt. Now magic/sorcery is frowned upon within most religions, then again most doubt it's existence. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 18:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

As Napoleon said "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Meaning without religion morals quite possibly would obsolete and we would certainly be warring and murdering, etc, Without even thinking it is wrong or right. Gods keep people in check. Most of the earliest laws created were religiously based, ex. Hammurabi's code was said to be instructions from a God to Hammurabi, Ten Commandments, the 5 Pillars. Religion is both a blessing and curse people fight over which one is correct but also gives them morals. As for sorcery. magic is in the eyes of the beholder early sorcery was likely just early forms of science or unexplainable events of nature, though im not saying sorcery couldnt have existed in this world anything is possible. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 19:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

Interesting- First: If no religion existed from the beginning. I don't think that we are or were ever wise enough to accept our own ignorance in the ways of the world. So, on that thought, we would seek some way of explaining. As for the wars, without conflicting religions I believe that less wars would have been fought, on a large scale. For sorcery: Magic, and religious persecution... You are right in the fact that many ancient religions used magic or sorcerous-like rituals in holy places and meetings all the time. I think that because humans have always feared what they do not understand it was extinguished as so. written into many religions as fear, but in there words 'unholy'. I find myself always wishing to live back in the dark ages when these questions were younger and more answerable. The further from the original acts and questions we get... the further from the answers. At least I believe this in the questions of religion and sorcery. I look forword to your input :!: view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 19:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

On the idea of whether less wars would have been fought without conflicting religions I agree religion did cause large scale problems, but what I was saying is that on a smaller scale morality comes into play which makes people think about their actions whether something they did was right or wrong. As for the magic aspect, people do fear what they themselves do not understand or do themselves, you would have to say jealously must have come into play. Who wouldnt be envious of such power and if you cant have that power then noone should, which eventually would use religion to kill off these old ideas and beliefs about sorecery using words like unholy, What better way to kill a powerful belief or magic than using something even more powerful to say it is wrong like a God if someone tells you it against a god a being with unlimited power your thinking will change pretty quickly. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 19:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

No, i dont believe that humans know whether something is right or wrong because of religion. I believe that religion just stabilized ideas that are natural in our head. Even animals understand suffering. When we suffer through something, we naturally dont wish that suffering to continue for others. So we understand that it is wrong. If you wish to cause suffering you know that it is wrong, but your wish is to cause the suffering is greater on some scale. other than that i totally agree with you. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 19:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator You should check out this topic there's a discussion on something similar there. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

It seems to me that humans cannot live with something which is unexplained. The unexplained seem to scare the mass. Did magic and sorcery ever really exist though? I find myself often wondering this. I believe it did in some way or another. All humans are capable of it I believe, though it would be very hard to learn how one would go about doing so and I'm sure many are unable to grasp the general concept of this. And of course, we being humans, when something unnatural does occur we become afraid and brand it as evil or unholy when it is not able to be explained, you are right about this. Will we ever be able to come to terms with that of which cannot be explained? view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

To answer your question no humans will never be satisfied not understanding something, the whole reason science was even brought about was to explain unexplainable things without using a God as an answer. Humans will strive to answer any question or explain any event until there is nothing to do anymore, and that my friends is when the universe will come to an end. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Slightly off topic, but do you read Douglas Adams? In one of his books he wrote that once the meaning of the universe or the meaning of life or something along those lines has been figured out by humans, it would end and be replaced by something even more bizarre. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Yes indeed I have read Douglas Adams, quite a guy, I enjoyed his books immensely. He most likely right. If there is a some higher presence in the universe he most likely wouldnt like humans knowing the meaning of the universe. Thats not offtopic at all. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

I enjoy his work, it's another author whom I read as a child. And what will happen when we do figure it out I wonder, will it simply cease to exist, will it end like the bible says... who really knows? About humans and how we do not like things we are not familiar with or things left unexplained. I want to try something here and see what you're reaction would be, some people are different from others, some are scared of what they do not know and others accepting or interested, those seem to be the ones who have the thirst to know more. My experiment I want to try is completely hypothetical, and is based on your reactions or what you say. Tell me your reactions, thoughts, etc. on what I write below; I feed off the emotions of others, manipulate their energy for my personal uses. Through meditation I have achieved things you could only wish you could achieve. Communicated with beings that some say are non-existent. If someone said these things to you, what would your initial reaction be, belief, doubt, would you think the person was clinically insane, would you search for answers, be afraid or want to know more? view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Before i answer your question I will say this many people hide their true intentions and reactions behind other ones. The average person would show fear or disdain torwards that statement but under that would secretly desire to know more about it, because human curiousity knows no bounds. My reaction would probably be that of disinterest some things are best left not understood. As for the clinically insane who knows if the clinically insane are actually insane, maybe they know something we dont. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

very interesting! I would be slightly sceptical. but would not rule it out as an impossibility. I would wish to know more as much as i could from you. i however would have an instantly doubtful view, just cautious on accepting it as truth from the start view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 21:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

And this my friends, is why I used the word "hypothetical". If I said it out right, or if anyone said it, they would be outcasts, frowned upon. People are skeptical, always have been, always will. We demand solid proof or physical evidence before we believe something. Not many people believe what they do not understand anymore, and those who do are branded gullible... such as Kellhus and his gullible companion Esmenet, when it came to what Achamian was saying. Good example: Achamian and the rest of the Mandate Schoolmen believe what they say, they are alike in that aspect, but when it comes to people outside the Mandate, they do not always necessarily believe what they say. In our world there are those who some refer to as "spiritually aware" most people doubt them or think they are not sane, but the other that are "spiritually aware" accept them, etc. It seems that fiction can always somehow be applied to life. view post

hmmm posted 03 Dec 2006, 21:12 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Wow! So many insights, sorry i have missed out on all the discussion. there are so many things in the above comments that i would like to speak to but the range of the topics have varied so greatly that it would be hard to do in one posting. First of all to the Hypothetical: I would want to believe, I would have a lot of questions. Depending on the person's overall look and sincerity, I would judge him much the way Khellus would. I would like to speak to the earlier religious comments. Religion is a complex and confusing endeavour. Faith is belief without reason. Eternity is existence with out time. God is being without limits. While none of these things exist naturally in the world, they are somehow present in our consciouness. Now i have read arguements that say that for that reason alone, God must exist. Like a statue in the desert, something must have created it. I have gotten a litle off topic here since i was trying to go more towards questions of faith and am now talking about God, but this path is naturally linked. HTe main point: If God is ultimately intellegent, would he be satisfied by a race of worshippers who disregard intellect for blind faith? Much the way Akka believes that doubters have found the true path to eternity. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 21:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Judge me the way Kellhus would. I see myself in some aspects like Kellhus. If only others did the same. They do not seem to judge fairly. I really like some of the things said in this topic, they describe religion and faith pretty well. Now do me a favour, what would you say if I told you what I said earlier was not hypothetical but true? view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 22:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

I would inquire more with enthusiasm view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 22:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I would ask for proof and go from there. view post

posted 03 Dec 2006, 22:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

*agrees with WP* view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

And I would say you're too much alike to be able to think for yourselves. Sense the sarcasm, I did not mean it seriously. What sort of proof though would you want or ask for? An explanation, or physical proof? view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Proof and then an explanation of it. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Again, what sort of proof? ex. Energy you cannot see, but you can feel. Would that be proof enough? If the person demonstrated it, etc. of course. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I suppose if you could convince me through feeling or me seeing something manipulated then that would be proof enough but then I would require an explanation. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Well, an explanation has been given. Let's see what is thought of it. The masses may think me not sane but the masses are unable to think for themselves, this irritates me. Perhaps magic has something to do with will? The mind has a part in it I would think. Assuming magic is at all possible or plausible. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

once again, i am forced to agree lol. Either seeing or feeling would be good enough for me given the right yes. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

*sigh* I'm starting to think a psychopath created two accounts and is talking to himself as SW and WP. It makes sense to me. But yes, and if they could prove it and explain it, then what? view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think at that point it would mean we believe you. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

indeed... and perhaps i already do...but not completly based on past experiences of my own. and if someone is schizo does that make them two or one(joking). i am just at work looking for intelligent conversations. at least for another hour view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Its going to be quite interesting when the other board members come back from there weekends. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Fair enough, I am skeptical of people until they can prove it to me. I had one person believe me, what I did was a complete accident though. I meant to take some energy from them but I gave them energy burn, one once explained to me what exactly it is, but I don't remember. All I know is that it caused her some pain and I kept apologizing after. Sort of like rug burn... except from energy and it didn't leave a mark. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Well lets say I believe you( not saying I do or do not, but leaving it as a possibility) what would be your limits with this type of energy ie distance, amount used, etc view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

what if one does not know the limits that it can go...the last time i did it it was about 2 feet...thats all...i dont know how much....just enough to feel it i suppose...not sure... view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Hmm, good question, I've never tested it. I just tried now, I tried my arms length, so about 4 or 5 feet, that's as far as I've tried. beyond that it begins to get harder for me to do, though if I take time to practice, and concentrate mroe often, I would probably be able to extend it. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

yes, I am feeling much more about digging into past experiences and trying to develop them view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 05:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

I want to try and develop my energy manipulation and meditation more but I seldom have time anymore. It's saddening. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 05:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[url:1lx7r74w][/url:1lx7r74w] You might find this quite interesting. Also you do realize this the way you two describe this it sounds like what some would call chakra. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 05:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

I took a look at it, seems interesting... but what are your thoughts on everything? Let's go back to the beginning, free will and sorcery. Or tell me again, what do you believe made you different from others as a child? What you were saying earlier made me curious. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 06:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

ok...hmm... i have not looked at the link yet. i intend to. anyway, yes much like chakra's but maybe just slightly different. as a child i have always felt different from other kids...not because of hobbies...or anything...i dont know. very hard to explain. however, i would like to know about your experiences. If you wish to tell? view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 16:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

I was speaking to WP in another thread and he was saying ho when he was a child he read material that otyher's his age did not... To some I would still be considered a child I bet, haha. Well what of my other experiences would you like to know? There is much to say but as well, much to explain. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 17:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

i would like to know view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 17:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Hmm... Well, I asked this before, do you know or ahev you heard the term "familiar"? view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 18:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

indeed, but in what form of the word do you speak of. give me your definition so i can see things more clearly view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 19:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Your question on the word "familiar" interests me. There are many definitions of such a word but the only one I could think of(though I suppose I could be wrong) would be something along the lines of a familar spirirt which could be defined as such, a supernatural spirit or demon supposed to attend on or serve a person, or could be something that aids you in your use of your power. Whether I am right or wrong would be up to you I suppose. And out of curiousity just how young are you Cordelia, and dont feel required to answer, im just curious. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 19:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

That is among one of my stronger feelings of what he spoke view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 20:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

And Cordelia I apologize in my earlier post I forgot to answer the question you asked about how was I different from other children. I suppose I was different in many ways, I was more knowledgeable in any topic you could possibly think of other compared to other kids, my maturity was beyond most high school students at the age of 9 and my creativity and ideas were pretty crazy: I thought about things normal kids normally would not know about, and if I ever had to say I had a "magical" gift it would be my intuition with nature and animals, I am very much a person of the mind I am more likely to achieve something like Kellhus' brain power rather than the gifts you seem to possess. view post

posted 04 Dec 2006, 23:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

Much appreciated, I enjoyed reading that. Others experiences interest me. view post

posted 05 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Well, WP, your definition of a familiar is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Now I ask you, do you think it possible that parallels do in fact exist? This is a crucial part if you wish for me to tell you more. Some believe that familiars can are merely animals in our realm who help to serve a person, though I've met others who say familiars can also be from other realms or perhaps parallels. So I am not merely asking about parallels, but other realms and dimensions in general. Referring to my question about your childhood Warrior-Poet, I don't see what I have as a "magical gift". It is simply something I learned to develop, probably with my mind. If you recall the discussion about tapping into potential that we as humans currently are unable to do. I believe that a portion are able to tap in to a very small amount of it, or something of it. As well as that, I think my greatest gift would be my mind as opposed to these "gifts" you speak of. I fail to see them as gifts, I've never really thought too much of it. I see my mind much like Kellhus' as well, though like I said before, as humans we seem to try and relate ourselves to fictional characters, I think it helps us to see who we are in a sense. Now, before I answer your question about age, how old do you think I am? Not just that, but consider what you know from conversing with me, as in how old I seem to be from my speaking, thoughts and so forth. view post

posted 05 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Sorry for making such a generalized statement when I used such words as "magical" and "gifts" what I was more implying was that while you seem to have developed that particular (I think I will use the word talent) talent that I am more of an analytical person rather than being capable of controlling energy and such not to say that I myself am not capable of developing this talent. As for the familiars and parallel worlds/dimensions I thought i had stated earlier that I found this to be a distinct possibility possibly I forgot to mention this, but yes I do believe it is a possibility. And where you seem to be leading this topic of "familiars" Sounds nearly identical to the Bronze Canticle series by Tracy Hickman where three worlds exist and one person from each world develop a partnership with a creature from one of the other worlds to use their "magic" so to speak. As for the age question I will answer an educated guess if you return the favor too me without using this board to find the answer. You could be anywhere from 14-100 with your apparent knowledge and wisdom but again I will narrow this because of fairly obvious reasons down to perhaps 14-40 and again I will narrow this once more because of your manner of speaking and your rather newer ideas to somewhere between 14-29 give or take a few years Im not really one for specifics. I could be completely off but this is would be a pretty safe bet view post

posted 05 Dec 2006, 04:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

I see myself as both talented and analytical. I've never read the Bronze Canticle Series, it sounds vaguely familiar though. I was sort of referring to His Dark material Series though. Pantalaimon was not form another realm, but he was still a different creature who to me fit the description of a familiar. Anyways, I have met people who claim to have them to state it simply. I genuinely believe that they telling the truth as well, it's just the things that had happened, it was one of these people who taught me to manipulate energy. Coincidently they are also a member of the SCA. If any of you are at all interested, I suggest you check it out. You can find amazing people in the organization. That's where I ended up meeting quite a few people who were unlike others I had met before. As to about age, I will send you a PM, it is disclosed information that I would rather keep away from the knowledge of others... at least for the time being seeing as I quite enjoy making people guess. view post

posted 05 Dec 2006, 23:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

They are quite possible, parrellels. I dont hold them as a rock solid belief of mine but they are possible. as for your guess is 14-20. just because i have a feeling that you are no older than this. please let me know in a PM view post

posted 05 Dec 2006, 23:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

and what may i ask is the SCA? view post

posted 05 Dec 2006, 23:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Society for Creative Anachronisms view post

posted 05 Dec 2006, 23:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

thank you! view post

posted 06 Dec 2006, 16:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

Think these parallels, if they do exist, are similar to our own realm/world/etc., or do you think they could be very different... even to the extent of having creatures completely different than our own... ie. the possibility of mythical creatures... or what are your thoughts on the idea of the actual existence of mythical creatures? view post

posted 06 Dec 2006, 16:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Im going to use this as an example of my belief in mythical creatures. Around the world on nearly every continent you can find statues, art, and stories of dragons, they may not be called dragons in each place but they are all relatively the same. With so many different places having claims like that, there must be some truth to the dragon myth and other myths for that matter. view post

posted 06 Dec 2006, 17:12 by Cordelia, Auditor

I've heard others make the same claim... I don't doubt it. Most also refer to how if you date all the statues, carvings, references, etc. you find that they were all created around the same time period so it would be physicslly impossible for one group of people to go around producing such statues, etc. themselves... so it would make more sense that such things did exist at one time. If you tihnk about it, unicorns don't seem so unreal either, if you subtract the idea of magic propoerties of course... It would be a horse with basically an antler or horn on their head or whatever. view post

posted 07 Dec 2006, 03:12 by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

i never really have thought of the whole dragons thing...very interesting though. i will do some research on it view post


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