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Names and Pronunciation posted 11 Jun 2004, 12:06 by The Consult, Candidate

Hi all :) Just thought i'd remark on the rather complex names and pronunciation in TDTCB. I don't think all the hard names are really necessary, and they make the book slightly more difficult to read... Don't get me wrong, it takes nothing at all away from the story (which is incidentally one of the best i've read:D) but i just find it rather annoying sometimes...having to stop mid-sentence to try and work out the pronunciation. I think my main problem is not be able to understand all the symbols above the vowels.... What do you all think? Oh, and feel free to explain the pronunciation of some of the harder names if you will :D view post


posted 11 Jun 2004, 17:06 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

Personally, I like them, because it gives the names more of a historical and less fantastical context. If they are troubling you, there is a glossary in the back with pronunciations. view post


posted 12 Jun 2004, 10:06 by Loof, Peralogue

Yeah i found the names a bit irritating myself mostly because since they where so long and hard to pronounce it was hard to keep track of who was who for most of the book. But i guess once you get used to the names it will be easier to remember who's who even if I can't pronounce them :D view post


posted 12 Jun 2004, 18:06 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

What do you think about getting some recordings of Scott saying them which you can play in the World Info section? (worldinfo.three-seas.com) view post


posted 13 Jun 2004, 12:06 by The Consult, Candidate

That is a most excellent idea:D view post


posted 13 Jun 2004, 20:06 by Schrodinger's Cat, Commoner

I agree. view post


posted 13 Jun 2004, 23:06 by Loof, Peralogue

Hell yeah :D view post


posted 14 Jun 2004, 17:06 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

I'll mention it and see what he thinks. view post


posted 19 Jun 2004, 00:06 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

OK. Scott said he'll see what can be done about the audio. I'm not sure when, if ever, it may be happening, but I'll post it. view post


posted 07 Jul 2004, 08:07 by legatus, Auditor

I remember mentally pronouncing Cnaiur with an awkward soft c from start to finish on my first read through of TDTCB... then I got to the appendix. "Nay-yur? Who-and-the-what-now? Ohhhhhh... silent c." I felt rightly foolish ;) Even so, I really enjoyed the exotic sounding names, since I felt it helped create a tone of cultural richness, uniqueness and diversity that wouldn't have been as well served by more common sounding names. I'd certainly like to hear Scott's renditions of some of the names though, in any case. There's likely a good many I'm still pronouncing incorrectly in my head. view post


posted 12 Aug 2004, 01:08 by steve, Peralogue

I thought the names were cool, Anasurimbor is a kickass name. view post


posted 20 Aug 2004, 06:08 by Orion_metalhead, Auditor

i like the names. its better than your cliche fantasy names that really just sounds dumb. its adds an aura to the story which makes you feel as if it truly is a different world. Thats what fantasy is about, being immersed in a different world. view post


posted 06 Jul 2006, 09:07 by Danforth, Commoner

The names add a great depth to the novel and makes it more epic-fantasy like. But there should of been 'Cnaiur (Nay-ur)' like things for all names in the glossary as opposed to just a few. I have taken to prouncing 'c' as 'k' in the novel as in Tolkien's world btw. view post


posted 06 Jul 2006, 18:07 by gierra, Sorcerer-of-Rank

i really liked the names. it helped to show that this was not a story from our world, or our history. this is a completely differnt world and society. view post


posted 07 Jul 2006, 21:07 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

I LOVE the names and I never had a problem with any of them. Apparently I'm weird. I thought Cnaiur's name being pronounced with a silent "C" was obvious; but again I'm in the minority. I also liked Kascamanadri, Hermananu Eleazaras, Cememketri, Skalateas, Athjeari, Seokti, Anasurimbor (which I wish was Ananasurimbor; I prefer the names to be as long as possible) and the like. I also like the fact that Achamian is a derivative of Achaminaed (sp?); ancient King of Persia... if I remember correctly. I didn't like the Greek-ish names: Triamis, Xerius, Xinemus, Sarcellus. view post


posted 04 Oct 2007, 09:10 by Lies And Perfidy, Commoner

It's worth noting, for those who missed it in the glossary of TTT, that the names we get in the books are chiefly Ketyai interpretations; for instance, "Coithus" is actually "Koütha" in the original Galeoth, which definitely has more of a Norsirai (read: Anglo-Saxon) ring to it. It'd be interesting to see what some of the other equivalents are. Now, try and say "Koütha Athjeäri" three times fast. :mrgreen: view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 19 Feb 2008, 15:02 by carlsefni, Peralogue

Apologies for reviving a ancient thread that last had a post months ago, but I'm just a new member cruising through the forum topics looking for something that [i:1i5avavi]doesn't[/i:1i5avavi] appear to be a recently spammed advert for goods'n'services of an "adult nature" ... of which there seem to be a lot! Anyway .... [quote="The Consult":1i5avavi]I don't think all the hard names are really necessary, and they make the book slightly more difficult to read... Don't get me wrong, it takes nothing at all away from the story (which is incidentally one of the best i've read:D) but i just find it rather annoying sometimes...having to stop mid-sentence to try and work out the pronunciation. I think my main problem is not be able to understand all the symbols above the vowels.... What do you all think?[/quote:1i5avavi] Well, with all due respect for "diff'rnt strokes for diff'rnt folks", I couldn't agree less. :) In fact, one of the (several) things that made me carry the book away from the shelf and towards the cash register was that when I flipped through the pages I saw lots of crunchy looking names with diacritics over the letters. How many fantasy authors risk diacritics!? (At least, anything beyond some largely decorative Lovecraftian apostrophes scattered here and there?) One thing that often gets me down in fantasy is feeling like the was little invested in the linguistic background and that the characters and places have received some what arbitrary names that fit no real or imaginable patterns (as they would and do in the Real World). But here ... Ah, this guy meant [i:1i5avavi]business[/i:1i5avavi]! These names promised [i:1i5avavi]depth[/i:1i5avavi]. And I don't think they disappointed in that regard. :) view post


posted 26 Feb 2008, 07:02 by Curethan, Didact

Agreed. It certainly does add depth to me. Although I have no formal education in historical matters, I have read some classical texts by Thucydides, Arian, Tacitus etc. and I must say that the kind of consistent linguistic techniques used by author like Bakker and Tolkien are far more effective than say Jordan and Erikson, where I often find myself confused as to which character is which. The former naming patterns, although no more effective in building characterisation at least offer hints as to the character's background or origin, thus seperating them in my head. view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 14 Aug 2008, 20:08 by Cnaiür, Peralogue

It would be fantastic if Scott could produce some audio to properly pronounce the names and words used in his books. He does provide some basic examples we can work with, but its not good enough! I can only suspect Scott wants us to use our own methods of pronunciations, based on our own language backgrounds. If I had something of mine published and released, and fans came up to me pronouncing all the names and words wrong, I would get seriously annoyed! I would find myself wanting to correct them each and every time. A time-waster! Hide, Scott, hide! If I ever meet you I will maul you down Kellhus closed-fist style for proper pronunciations. :mrgreen: Anyways... Based on his examples and my language background these are some of the rules I use, and how I pronounce some of the names: û = long u sound. au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon) ai = long i sound ei = long a sound oi = oy (boy, toy) y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow) j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?) i = I mainly turn it into a long e sound, with some exceptions. Dûnyain = Dune-yen Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah Mog-Pharau = Mog Fah-ra-oo Paro Inrau = Pa-row In-ra-oo ('pa' as in ma and pa, the short a sound. The same with 'ra') (Imperial) Saik = Sike (although I sometimes wonder if its 'sake' - They are there for the Imperial's sake. :lol:) Mysunsai = Me-sun-sigh Isûphiryas = Ee-sue-fee-ree-us Scylvendi = skill-ven-dee Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy Cûnuroi = Koo-nuh-roy ('nuh' like mud, nothing/nuh-thing, the short u sound) Aujic = Ah-oo-jjj-ick Ainoni = Eye-non-nee Sheyic = Shay-yick Kyranean = Kee-ra-nee-en ('en' is like saying the letter 'n') Kyraneas = Kee-ra-nee-es ('es' is like saying the letter 's') Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee Ikurei = Ee-kur-ray Istriya = Ee-stree-yah Xerius = Zee-ree-us (like serious, as he always is :lol: ) Conphas = Conf-es ('es' is like saying the letter 's') Nansur = Nan-sir ('sir' like purr) Skeaös = Skay-yose Seökti = Say-yoke-tee Mallahet = pronounced as its spelled; Mal-la-het Conriya = Con-ree-yah Nersei Proyas = Nair-say Proy-es Krijates Ximenus = Kree-yaht-es Zee-men-us ('yaht' pronounced like the boat 'yacht') Tydonni = Tie Domi :mrgreen: Otherwise, Ti-don-nee ('ti' like tit) Now here are ones I'm really at a loss: Cironj = See-ron-nee? Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee Eärwa = If it wasn't for that umlaut ä I would pronounce it as Ah-yar-wah ('yar' like yard without the d) Eänna = If it wasn't for that umlaut ä I would pronounce it as Ah-yah-nah Thoti Eännorean = Thot-ee Ah-yah-nor-ree-en Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star) I think that Eä would sound as ay, the long a sound, or more like Eh! like Canadians say eh? Eh? Eh!-rrr-wah??? Eh!-nnn-nah??? Or, long e, then the eh! sound. Like Ee-eh! E. Eh! Sports. Ee-ehrr-wah? Ee-ehn-nah? Have any of you heard Scott pronounce Eärwa? I also would like to check out some of your pronunciations to these words. Perhaps we could build a pronunciation lexicon. Even move it over to that wiki (good idea) someone started up. Until Scott ever decides to do audio recordings. view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 14 Aug 2008, 22:08 by carlsefni, Peralogue

[quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]It would be fantastic if Scott could produce some audio to properly pronounce the names and words used in his books.[/quote:1dibx5on] Agreed 100%! [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]If I had something of mine published and released, and fans came up to me pronouncing all the names and words wrong, I would get seriously annoyed! I would find myself wanting to correct them each and every time. A time-waster! Hide, Scott, hide! If I ever meet you I will maul you down Kellhus closed-fist style for proper pronunciations. :mrgreen:[/quote:1dibx5on] :lol: It's funny this topic should spring back to life today, actually -- I was just (procrastinating from real work or writing) by musing over issues of orthography and pronunciation for names in my little fiction project (being an extremely slow, amateur, and unpublished but grimly determined would-be author). ;) I think, once upon a time, I would have been horrified were I an author and people pronounced my characters' names wrongly. Nowadays ... I think I'd just be happy they'd bought my book and were pronouncing the names at all! Still ... I do ponder how to write names in ways that will be more or less transparent to English-speakers unaccustomed to seeing diacritics or "funny" letters (not to mention publishers reluctant to print them!) and without doing too much violence to the "real" pronunciation. There are always a few vowels and consonants that I just can't decide what to do with! [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)[/quote:1dibx5on] Hmmm, why not a diphthong as with your interpretation for [i:1dibx5on]ai[/i:1dibx5on] ("ai = long i sound"), like /au/ (English "ow" as in "cow")? I'd be more naturally inclined to go with a diphthong unless there were something like a diaeresis (¨) over one of the vowels (e.g. aü), marking it as being in hiatus (as done in, say, Occitan). [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow)[/quote:1dibx5on] I do agonize over the use of "y". I really want something to represent the vowel /y/ as the u in French chute or the ü in German Blüte, but since this vowel doesn't even exist in English, I know that wouldn't be at all transparent to English-speaking readers. Up to this point, I've only dared deploy "y" as a consonant /j/ as in English "yes", though I am sure you are right that Scott is using it as both a consonant and vowel -- and, yeah, at a guess maybe kind of /i/ vowel, either long or short. [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?)[/quote:1dibx5on] Actually, though my background is in Germanic languages where "j" is /j/ and I live in a Spanish-speaking country where "j" is more like /h/ , I'm actually more inclined to see Scott's "j" as something more like the typical English "j" in "judge" (as a /dʒ/). After all, why use "j" for the /j/ sound of English "yes" when its seems he is already using "y" itself for that sound? Scott's use of final "j" as in "Cironj" actually makes me think of Turkish final -c, pronounced as a /dʒ/, just like English "j" in "judge". Though your "rev'd shhhh" sound is interesting; it makes me think of the Castilian Spanish /x/ for "j", or maybe even the earlier Spanish /ʃ/ (English "sh") pronunciation of "x" -- or even the elusive Swedish "sje" sound (/ɧ/). Egotistically, I still personally think like that j = /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge") is more [i:1dibx5on]likely[/i:1dibx5on], but I kind of like the idea for you "j" interpretation. :) I kind of like the idea of "j" as /i:/ (long i) as well, though I'm not sure its the case here. [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]Dûnyain = Dune-yen Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah[/quote:1dibx5on] Here, for example, I be tempted to interpret Scott's "y" as /j/ ("y" in "yes") in both of these names: /du:njain/ and /gilcu:ɲa/ (interpreting the "ny" combination in the latter as something like the Spanish "ñ"). [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]Mog-Pharau = Mog Fah-ra-oo Paro Inrau = Pa-row In-ra-oo ('pa' as in ma and pa, the short a sound. The same with 'ra')[/quote:1dibx5on] I'm seeing more that diphthong thing: /farau/ and /inrau/. Though even a disyllabic a-u sound can easily be slurred into a diphthong in rapid speech; I hear that in Spanish a lot. Oh, but what about that "ph"? Yeah, it's probably just an orthographic variant for "f" to look more cool :) but wouldn't it be fun if it were a aspirated /p/ like Ancient Greek letter [i:1dibx5on]phi[/i:1dibx5on]? :) [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy[/quote:1dibx5on] Now here I would have gone with "ch" as typical English "ch" as in "church". For you predicted pronunciation, I would have expected a spelling simply with "k". In my own project's spelling conventions, I've been using plain "c" to stand for typical English "ch" as in "church" (as in Italian). I realize "ch" would be more obvious to English-speakers, but ... I?ve just shied away from "ch" for some reason! Whenever I've tried it, I've been unhappy with the "look". Scott's "c" seems likely to just be an orthographic variation of "k", though. (Unless he's got something enormously funky going on in in names like "Cnaiür"!) :) [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee[/quote:1dibx5on] These spellings make me think Scott is using the diaeresis (¨) to mark hiatus, the separation of two vowels: /ku:.ni.ur/ and perhaps /ku:.ni.u.rik/. Though of course a disyllabic /i.u/ or similar construction with initial /i/ before another vowel in hiatus will easily change into /i.ju/, so we could (in a future version of the languge!) even end up with something like /ku:.ɲur/ ɲNow here are ones I'm really at a loss: Cironj = See-ron-nee? Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]Now here are ones I'm really at a loss: Cironj = See-ron-nee? Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee[/quote:1dibx5on] Yeah, here is where I think j = /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge") solve those problems neatly (if mundanely!). [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star)[/quote:1dibx5on] Why "zar" as "star" rather than "tsar"? [quote="Cnaiür":1dibx5on]I think that Eä would sound as ay, the long a sound, or more like Eh! like Canadians say eh? Eh? Eh!-rrr-wah??? Eh!-nnn-nah??? Or, long e, then the eh! sound. Like Ee-eh! E. Eh! Sports. Ee-ehrr-wah? Ee-ehn-nah? [...] Have any of you heard Scott pronounce Eärwa?[/quote:1dibx5on] I haven't, though my guess is still that the diaeresis (¨) marks hiatus, and we have three syllables: /e.ar.wa/ (or sort of "eh-ar-wah"). My guess is that stress there would fall on the second /ar/ syllable, but that's just a guess. I would really be delighted if there were more juicy details on the words, names and languages of Eärwa (however it, or they, are pronounced!). 8) Then again, I am one of those madmen who reads the appendices of [i:1dibx5on]Lord of the Rings[/i:1dibx5on] for fun. ;) If the publishers balk at putting in appendices, I'd love to see such info go on the Web site. And if Scott hasn't got a pile of notes on this stuff, if he has just "made it up", then he's done an excellent job at faking a very realistic looking multilingual milieu! :mrgreen: view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 14 Aug 2008, 22:08 by carlsefni, Peralogue

[quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]It would be fantastic if Scott could produce some audio to properly pronounce the names and words used in his books.[/quote:lajt3g8e] Agreed 100%! I remember there are some pronunciation guides in the appendicies, but I'm trapped between an intercontinental move last year and a new-house move in a couple of months from now, and all my books are in boxes in the basement! Ah well. Still, if publishers balk at putting [i:lajt3g8e]too[/i:lajt3g8e] much appendices, I'd love to see such info go on the Web site. And if Scott hasn't got a pile of notes on this stuff, if he has just "made it up", then he's done an excellent job at faking a very realistic looking multilingual milieu! :mrgreen: [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]If I had something of mine published and released, and fans came up to me pronouncing all the names and words wrong, I would get seriously annoyed! I would find myself wanting to correct them each and every time. A time-waster! Hide, Scott, hide! If I ever meet you I will maul you down Kellhus closed-fist style for proper pronunciations. :mrgreen:[/quote:lajt3g8e] :lol: It's funny this topic should spring back to life today, actually -- I was just (procrastinating from real work or writing) by musing over issues of orthography and pronunciation for names in my little fiction project (being an extremely slow, amateur, and unpublished but grimly determined would-be author). ;) I think, once upon a time, I would have been horrified were I an author and people pronounced my characters' names wrongly. Nowadays ... I think I'd just be happy they'd bought my book and were pronouncing the names at all! Still ... I do ponder how to write names in ways that will be more or less transparent to English-speakers unaccustomed to seeing diacritics or "funny" letters (not to mention publishers reluctant to print them!) and without doing too much violence to the "real" pronunciation. There are always a few vowels and consonants that I just can't decide what to do with! [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)[/quote:lajt3g8e] Hmmm, why not a diphthong as with your interpretation for [i:lajt3g8e]ai[/i:lajt3g8e] ("ai = long i sound"), like /au/ (English "ow" as in "cow")? I'd be more naturally inclined to go with a diphthong unless there were something like a diaeresis (¨) over one of the vowels (e.g. aü), marking it as being in hiatus (as done in, say, Occitan). [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow)[/quote:lajt3g8e] I do agonize over the use of "y". I really want something to represent the vowel /y/ as the u in French chute or the ü in German Blüte, but since this vowel doesn't even exist in English, I know that wouldn't be at all transparent to English-speaking readers. Up to this point, I've only dared deploy "y" as a consonant /j/ as in English "yes", though I am sure you are right that Scott is using it as both a consonant and vowel -- and, yeah, at a guess maybe kind of /i/ vowel, either long or short. [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?)[/quote:lajt3g8e] Actually, though my background is in Germanic languages where "j" is /j/ and I live in a Spanish-speaking country where "j" is more like /h/ , I'm actually more inclined to see Scott's "j" as something more like the typical English "j" in "judge" (as a /dʒ/). After all, why use "j" for the /j/ sound of English "yes" when its seems he is already using "y" itself for that sound? Scott's use of final "j" as in "Cironj" actually makes me think of Turkish final -c, pronounced as a /dʒ/, just like English "j" in "judge". Though your "rev'd shhhh" sound is interesting; it makes me think of the Castilian Spanish /x/ for "j", or maybe even the earlier Spanish /ʃ/ (English "sh") pronunciation of "x" -- or even the elusive Swedish "sje" sound (/ɧ/). Egotistically, I still personally think like that j = /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge") is more [i:lajt3g8e]likely[/i:lajt3g8e], but I kind of like the idea for you "j" interpretation. :) I kind of like the idea of "j" as /i:/ (long i) as well, though I'm not sure its the case here. [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]Dûnyain = Dune-yen Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah[/quote:lajt3g8e] Here, for example, I be tempted to interpret Scott's "y" as /j/ ("y" in "yes") in both of these names: /du:njain/ and /gilcu:ɲa/ (interpreting the "ny" combination in the latter as something like the Spanish "ñ"). [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]Mog-Pharau = Mog Fah-ra-oo Paro Inrau = Pa-row In-ra-oo ('pa' as in ma and pa, the short a sound. The same with 'ra')[/quote:lajt3g8e] I'm seeing more that diphthong thing: /farau/ and /inrau/. Though even a disyllabic a-u sound can easily be slurred into a diphthong in rapid speech; I hear that in Spanish a lot. Oh, but what about that "ph"? Yeah, it's probably just an orthographic variant for "f" to look more cool :) but wouldn't it be fun if it were a aspirated /p/ like Ancient Greek letter [i:lajt3g8e]phi[/i:lajt3g8e]? :) [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy[/quote:lajt3g8e] Now here I would have gone with "ch" as typical English "ch" as in "church". For you predicted pronunciation, I would have expected a spelling simply with "k". In my own project's spelling conventions, I've been using plain "c" to stand for typical English "ch" as in "church" (as in Italian). I realize "ch" would be more obvious to English-speakers, but ... I?ve just shied away from "ch" for some reason! Whenever I've tried it, I've been unhappy with the "look". Scott's "c" seems likely to just be an orthographic variation of "k", though -- and sometimes silent, no? (as for "Cnaiür", as mentioned earlier in this thread). [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee[/quote:lajt3g8e] These spellings make me think Scott is using the diaeresis (¨) to mark hiatus, the separation of two vowels: /ku:.ni.ur/ and perhaps /ku:.ni.u.rik/. Though of course a disyllabic /i.u/ or similar construction with initial /i/ before another vowel in hiatus will easily change into /i.ju/, so we could (in a future version of the languge!) even end up with something like /ku:.ɲur/ ɲNow here are ones I'm really at a loss: Cironj = See-ron-nee? Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]Now here are ones I'm really at a loss: Cironj = See-ron-nee? Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee[/quote:lajt3g8e] Yeah, here is where I think j = /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge") solve those problems neatly (if mundanely!). [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star)[/quote:lajt3g8e] Why "zar" as "star" rather than "tsar"? [quote="Cnaiür":lajt3g8e]I think that Eä would sound as ay, the long a sound, or more like Eh! like Canadians say eh? Eh? Eh!-rrr-wah??? Eh!-nnn-nah??? Or, long e, then the eh! sound. Like Ee-eh! E. Eh! Sports. Ee-ehrr-wah? Ee-ehn-nah? [...] Have any of you heard Scott pronounce Eärwa?[/quote:lajt3g8e] I haven't, though my guess is still that the diaeresis (¨) marks hiatus, and we have three syllables: /e.ar.wa/ (or sort of "eh-ar-wah"). My guess is that stress there would fall on the second /ar/ syllable, but that's just a guess. I would really be delighted if there were more juicy details on the words, names and languages of Eärwa (however it, or they, are pronounced!). 8) Then again, I am one of those madmen who reads the appendices of [i:lajt3g8e]Lord of the Rings[/i:lajt3g8e] for fun. ;) view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 15 Aug 2008, 01:08 by Cnaiür, Peralogue

[quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] :lol: It's funny this topic should spring back to life today, actually -- I was just (procrastinating from real work or writing) by musing over issues of orthography and pronunciation for names in my little fiction project (being an extremely slow, amateur, and unpublished but grimly determined would-be author). ;) [/quote:3itd6cbd] I've been writing a book for 18 years and I've yet to complete chapter 1. How's that for a handicapped snail's pace. :lol: I'm also determined to complete it, along with all the others I've scribbled up. But, really, when you come across a book like TDTCB, it becomes both discouraging and inspiring to write. It pissed me off so much I grow more determined! :mrgreen: [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] I think, once upon a time, I would have been horrified were I an author and people pronounced my characters' names wrongly. Nowadays ... I think I'd just be happy they'd bought my book and were pronouncing the names at all! Still ... I do ponder how to write names in ways that will be more or less transparent to English-speakers unaccustomed to seeing diacritics or "funny" letters (not to mention publishers reluctant to print them!) and without doing too much violence to the "real" pronunciation. There are always a few vowels and consonants that I just can't decide what to do with! [/quote:3itd6cbd] Stick them in there. A book to decipher and discover and continuously learn from is a great book indeed. I've read many times most publishers want easy readable 'write-for-the-market' type of material, for those people who enjoy an easy read, and familiar topics, and no strange characters. English only. (isn't the iq and attention span of many in the U.S. extremely lower nowadays? :lol: I have no pity). This is why we have troll trash like Stephen King and Chuck Palahniuk (Fight Club was 100 times better than the book, and that was his best book!!! Yet he sells sells sells. It boggles me and bothers me.) But, then there are the other kinds of people. The more intellectual who prefer intellectual reads. The ones who want a challenging read, in various aspects. The ones who want all these materials that appears advanced and unfamiliar to them, yet they would still enjoy. Then again, I'm no successful writer or publisher, so what do I know. :lol: I just know I like challenging and gripping reads, books I can savor and remember. Books that can resonate loud and long enough I research, study, and learn whatever it was I got out of it, so I can get more from it. And most importantly, perhaps the most important thing of all (for me), books with characters so real I can smell them off the pages, and character interaction so real its like I am present listening, watching. Without either, the book is a fucking bore. Like every story I've ever read by Arthur C. Clarke, save one. Anyhow, moving on.... [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd]au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)[/quote:3itd6cbd] Hmmm, why not a diphthong as with your interpretation for [i:3itd6cbd]ai[/i:3itd6cbd] ("ai = long i sound"), like /au/ (English "ow" as in "cow")? I'd be more naturally inclined to go with a diphthong unless there were something like a diaeresis (¨) over one of the vowels (e.g. aü), marking it as being in hiatus (as done in, say, Occitan). [/quote:3itd6cbd] My base for pronunciations is to step away from English as much as I can. In English, 'au' would be pronounced like a short o sound, like doll, hall, aura, awe, and so forth. I'll always remember an African man I once worked with that pronounced the 'au' as 2 separate syllables, ah-oo, That's ah-oo-ten-tik (authentic). Ah-oo-straw-lee-ah (Australia). I found it amusing then. And very fitting for Bakker's world. So I've stuck with it. [edited add] The only exception is Cishaurim = See-shar-rim (shar like tar, bar. In this case, the 'u' is not pronounced, it just adds a lengthier 'r' sound) [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd]y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow)[/quote:3itd6cbd] I do agonize over the use of "y". I really want something to represent the vowel /y/ as the u in French chute or the ü in German Blüte, but since this vowel doesn't even exist in English, I know that wouldn't be at all transparent to English-speaking readers. Up to this point, I've only dared deploy "y" as a consonant /j/ as in English "yes", though I am sure you are right that Scott is using it as both a consonant and vowel -- and, yeah, at a guess maybe kind of /i/ vowel, either long or short. [/quote:3itd6cbd] Always the tricky letter. One must hear it vocalized to know its proper sound in a word. [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd]j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?)[/quote:3itd6cbd] Actually, though my background is in Germanic languages where "j" is /j/ and I live in a Spanish-speaking country where "j" is more like /h/ , I'm actually more inclined to see Scott's "j" as something more like the typical English "j" in "judge" (as a /dʒ/). After all, why use "j" for the /j/ sound of English "yes" when its seems he is already using "y" itself for that sound? Scott's use of final "j" as in "Cironj" actually makes me think of Turkish final -c, pronounced as a /dʒ/, just like English "j" in "judge". Though your "rev'd shhhh" sound is interesting; it makes me think of the Castilian Spanish /x/ for "j", or maybe even the earlier Spanish /ʃ/ (English "sh") pronunciation of "x" -- or even the elusive Swedish "sje" sound (/ɧ/). Egotistically, I still personally think like that j = /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge") is more [i:3itd6cbd]likely[/i:3itd6cbd], but I kind of like the idea for you "j" interpretation. :) I kind of like the idea of "j" as /i:/ (long i) as well, though I'm not sure its the case here. [/quote:3itd6cbd] My Brasilian and Portuguese backgrounds rev that j up in every word I know. Ex. January = Janeiro. Janeiro is pronounced jjj-ah-nay-rrr-oo (the r is also revved up, very much like a loud cat's purr. ). Even the g gets revved up from time to time. Its a unique step away from English. Cironj was the only word I considered using the j sound, just like you stated. Like Judge. George. See-ron-ge. [edited add] What about jnan? I'm at a loss for that one, and just pronounce it as ye-nan. [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd]Dûnyain = Dune-yen Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah[/quote:3itd6cbd] Here, for example, I be tempted to interpret Scott's "y" as /j/ ("y" in "yes") in both of these names: /du:njain/ and /gilcu:ɲa/ (interpreting the "ny" combination in the latter as something like the Spanish "ñ"). [/quote:3itd6cbd] That's interesting. You just opened up a door for me. Tie that in with the long i sound for "ai" and Dûnyain would sound Doon-njine, with a hard inflection on the 'nj' sound Gilcûnya was tricky. I first pronounced it with a revved J (most Portuguese words that begin with 'gi' are pronounced with a revved j). Jjj-ill-coon-yah. I do believe you're onto something more precise with the 'ny' pairing being pronounced as you stated. It creates a great harsh inflection I can imagine being used in Bakker's world. Gill-coo-njah. Cironj = See-ron-nge. [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] Oh, but what about that "ph"? Yeah, it's probably just an orthographic variant for "f" to look more cool :) but wouldn't it be fun if it were a aspirated /p/ like Ancient Greek letter [i:3itd6cbd]phi[/i:3itd6cbd]? :)[/quote:3itd6cbd] Mog Pharau = P-ha-row? the p and h separated like in the word up-hill? Tres cool. How about P-ha-ra-oo. :lol: Scott probably just pronounces it as Pharoah. :mrgreen: [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd]Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy[/quote:3itd6cbd] Now here I would have gone with "ch" as typical English "ch" as in "church". For you predicted pronunciation, I would have expected a spelling simply with "k". In my own project's spelling conventions, I've been using plain "c" to stand for typical English "ch" as in "church" (as in Italian). I realize "ch" would be more obvious to English-speakers, but ... I?ve just shied away from "ch" for some reason! Whenever I've tried it, I've been unhappy with the "look". Scott's "c" seems likely to just be an orthographic variation of "k", though. (Unless he's got something enormously funky going on in in names like "Cnaiür"!) :)[/quote:3itd6cbd] No 'ch' sounds as in church. I personally want to stay away from it. Even if the 'ch' as in church is really Scott's intention. :P I will try to do a better job visualizing my pronunciation. Inchoroi = ink-hor-oy ('ink' like the english word, 'hor' like whore but with a really light stress on the h, 'oy' like boy and toy) [edited add] Chorae = Kor-rye-ee (the long e cut short) [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd]Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee[/quote:3itd6cbd] These spellings make me think Scott is using the diaeresis (¨) to mark hiatus, the separation of two vowels: /ku:.ni.ur/ and perhaps /ku:.ni.u.rik/. Though of course a disyllabic /i.u/ or similar construction with initial /i/ before another vowel in hiatus will easily change into /i.ju/, so we could (in a future version of the languge!) even end up with something like /ku:.ɲur/ [/quote:3itd6cbd] I think I got this one correct: Koo-nee-yur-rick and Koo-nee-yur-ee with very little emphasis on the -nee- as if its barely pronounced. I guess it would be like this: Kooni-yur-ick and Kooni-yur-ee Although, I do wonder if there is a y sound right after the K, like K-you-nee-yur-ick. Like literally saying the letter Q. Q-nee-yur-ick. [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd] Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee[/quote:3itd6cbd] Yeah, here is where I think j = /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge") solve those problems neatly (if mundanely!).[/quote:3itd6cbd] You could be right. But think it like this. How would the Scylvendi pronounce it and how would, say, the Ainoni pronounce it. The Scylvendi probably use the hard 'g' sound, while the Ainoni use the revved j, or just silence the j. Very much like how Portuguese use the hard g and the revved j for the letter "G" while the Spanish silence the "G". And both are so close together in land and language they're like big brother and little brother to each other in the Iberian peninsula. Which makes me think if that's the reason why Scott will not create pronunciation audio for us. One method of pronunciation for one race/group of people could be entirely different than the pronunciation of the next race/group of people, in the context of his world. [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] [quote="Cnaiür":3itd6cbd]Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star)[/quote:3itd6cbd] Why "zar" as "star" rather than "tsar"? [/quote:3itd6cbd] Like err and in error?? like how the French pronounce zero? like czar. Ell-ah-yah-czar-as That's actually very fitting! But I'm still at a loss for Eä. I personally like Ah-yaaaaah. Like Kung-fu. But from Scott's use of 'E' in Serwë, the 'e' could be the same, a long 'a' sound (hay, may, day) so eä would be ay-yaaaah Or like what I suggested earlier, the Canadian's use the word 'eh', which is very much like a long 'a' sound, but cut short. Scott [i:3itd6cbd]is[/i:3itd6cbd] Canadian! And he could very well be intentionally inserting the 'eh' sound in 'eä' for the sake of his Canadian heritage. Sooo.... Eärwa = eh-yaaaah-rrr-wah Eänna = eh-yaaaah-nnn-nah Eleäzaras = Ell-eh-yaaah-zerr-as [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] I am one of those madmen who reads the appendices of [i:3itd6cbd]Lord of the Rings[/i:3itd6cbd] for fun. ;) [/quote:3itd6cbd] You truly are a madman. :shock: [quote="carlsefni":3itd6cbd] If the publishers balk at putting in appendices, I'd love to see such info go on the Web site. And if Scott hasn't got a pile of notes on this stuff, if he has just "made it up", then he's done an excellent job at faking a very realistic looking multilingual milieu! :mrgreen:[/quote:3itd6cbd] I doubt he's faking it. He stated it took him 13 years to put together TDTCB. And his areas of education speak for themselves. This man is steeped! I'm glad you responded to this topic. Keep it coming. We'll do Scott's job for us. :lol: view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 15 Aug 2008, 01:08 by Cnaiür, Peralogue

Actually, it would really help to know Scott's background, and the languages he learned, so it can narrow down the realm of pronunciations for us all. How about one of you forum admins who is close to Scott ask about those things. :wink: Or else this rash Scylvendi bastard might have to unsheathe his sword and mark a couple of swazonds seconds afterwards. :mrgreen: view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 15 Aug 2008, 14:08 by carlsefni, Peralogue

[quote="Cnaiür":2ziwumdz]I've been writing a book for 18 years and I've yet to complete chapter 1. How's that for a handicapped snail's pace. :lol:[/quote:2ziwumdz] Sounds about right! I think I officially decided I would write a proper novel in 1995. :roll: I've made it through more than a chapter, but it's been a learning process, and I've often found myself what I thought was a long way in, but then deciding things were not right, and starting over again. I think the first few paragraphs of my most recent drafts are still largely the same as when I began -- but everything else has moved and shifted and usually changed utterly! :lol: [quote="Cnaiür":2ziwumdz]I'm also determined to complete it, along with all the others I've scribbled up. But, really, when you come across a book like TDTCB, it becomes both discouraging and inspiring to write. It pissed me off so much I grow more determined! :mrgreen: [/quote:2ziwumdz] We shall overcome! :) I've taken something of a break over the last year or so -- having been too occupied with other things -- but am thinking about how to shape things again. I've done lots of writing over the years, but never imposed much structure, so now I'm trying to think carefully about outlines and plans ... a skeleton over which to paint flesh, layer by layer .... Eh, it'll probably take me another 18 years! ;) [quote="Cnaiür":2ziwumdz]Stick them [diacritics and "funny" letters] in there.[/quote:2ziwumdz] Yes, after reading TDTCB, I decided I could at least get away with a few diaeresis and circumflex marks. :) I do know many readers find that sort of thing distracting, but I like to think it adds a little "seasoning". I do think I'll use the circumflex to sporadically mark long vowels where I think an English speaker might otherwise pronounce them short (e.g. to encourage something written [i:2ziwumdz]dûk[/i:2ziwumdz] to be pronounced more like French [i:2ziwumdz]duc[/i:2ziwumdz] than English "duck"), and likewise I think I'll use the diaeresis sporadically to mark out vowels as separate syllables where I think English speakers might otherwise pronounce them as a diphthong in combo with an adjacent vowel (as in French [i:2ziwumdz]Noël[/i:2ziwumdz], "no-ehl") or as silent (e.g. to distinguish something like [i:2ziwumdz]winë[/i:2ziwumdz], "wihn-eh" from English "wine"). Not flawless techniques, of course, but they will add occasionaly "visual interest", if nothing else, and will perhaps remind people that they are not looking at English-language environments. Still, I intend to try to stick reasonably closely to usages that will work for English-speakers. I think I must use "y" for /j/ (the "y" of English "yes"), and "j" for /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge"). I have flirted with using "dg" or "dj" for /dʒ/ ("dg" in "judge"!), but I wonder whether spelling a word pronounced like English "judge" as either [i:2ziwumdz]dgudg[/i:2ziwumdz] or [i:2ziwumdz]djudj[/i:2ziwumdz] would be too weird? Though, actually [i:2ziwumdz]djudj[/i:2ziwumdz] as a kind of pleasantly exotic look to it .... :) Still, I don't think I need the letter "j" for anything else, so I don't really [i:2ziwumdz]dj[/i:2ziwumdz] instead of just plain [i:2ziwumdz]j[/i:2ziwumdz] for the "j" in "judge". Being set on "y" for /j/ (the "y" of English "yes"), that makes it straightforward to use "ny" and "ly" for what Portuguese would write [i:2ziwumdz]nh[/i:2ziwumdz] and [i:2ziwumdz]lh[/i:2ziwumdz] or Spanish would write [i:2ziwumdz]ñ[/i:2ziwumdz] and [i:2ziwumdz]ll[/i:2ziwumdz]. My pain remains in whether to admit "y" to represent that elusive /y/ vowel as in French [i:2ziwumdz]chute[/i:2ziwumdz] or German [i:2ziwumdz]Blüte[/i:2ziwumdz]? So far, my decision has been "no", since I'm pretty sure English speakers would simply pronounce a "y" vowel as a /ai/ diphthong (as in English "why") or possibly a long i vowel (as in English place-names like "Shelby"), and I can't use a German-style "ü" either, since I'm pretty sure I want the diaeresis to distinguish syllabication in vowels. And since that /y/ vowel is not terribly Anglophone, I think I'll to abandon marking it distinctly, and simply write it as an "i" or a "u" ... probably just "i", since I'm actually not very happy with the [i:2ziwumdz]look[/i:2ziwumdz] of the letter "u" in names where I would like a /y/ vowel. [quote="Cnaiür":2ziwumdz]My Brasilian and Portuguese backgrounds rev that j up in every word I know. Ex. January = Janeiro. Janeiro is pronounced jjj-ah-nay-rrr-oo (the r is also revved up, very much like a loud cat's purr. ).[/quote:2ziwumdz] Ah, I think I'm with you now -- basically a /ʒ/, like the like the French "j" in joue or a bit like the sound of "si" in English "vision". Yeah, even though I'm thinking like an English "j" in "judge", I think I'd be happy with your Portuguese "j", too. :) Only a few steps away, in a sense! [quote="Cnaiür":2ziwumdz]That's interesting. You just opened up a door for me. Tie that in with the long i sound for "ai" and Dûnyain would sound Doon-njine, with a hard inflection on the 'nj' sound Gilcûnya was tricky. I first pronounced it with a revved J (most Portuguese words that begin with 'gi' are pronounced with a revved j). Jjj-ill-coon-yah. I do believe you're onto something more precise with the 'ny' pairing being pronounced as you stated. It creates a great harsh inflection I can imagine being used in Bakker's world. Gill-coo-njah. Cironj = See-ron-nge.[/quote:2ziwumdz] Yeah, in a way, I'm seeing that "ny" in Scott's "Gilcûnya" and "Dûnyain" as something like a Portuguese [i:2ziwumdz]nh[/i:2ziwumdz]. So, in Portuguese orthpgraphy .... like a "Guilcunha" and "Dunhain", perhaps! :) [quote="Cnaiür":2ziwumdz]Although, I do wonder if there is a y sound right after the K [in Kûniüric], like K-you-nee-yur-ick. Like literally saying the letter Q. Q-nee-yur-ick.[/quote:2ziwumdz] Ah, though that would be a very "Anglophone" style pronunciation, as that added /j/ before long /u:/ is a particularly English-language thing -- like the typical English-speaker's pronunciation of "Cuba" as /kju:bə/, whereas a Spanish speaker would say /ku:βa/. Thus, I think I lean away from that "K-you-" pronunciation, as I would expect to see that actually written "Kyûniüric". [quote="Cnaiür":2ziwumdz]But think it like this. How would the Scylvendi pronounce it and how would, say, the Ainoni pronounce it. The Scylvendi probably use the hard 'g' sound, while the Ainoni use the revved j, or just silence the j. Very much like how Portuguese use the hard g and the revved j for the letter "G" while the Spanish silence the "G". And both are so close together in land and language they're like big brother and little brother to each other in the Iberian peninsula. Which makes me think if that's the reason why Scott will not create pronunciation audio for us. One method of pronunciation for one race/group of people could be entirely different than the pronunciation of the next race/group of people, in the context of his world. [/quote:2ziwumdz] Though are we assuming that the Scylvendi and Ainoni are all encountering these names in a [i:2ziwumdz]literate[/i:2ziwumdz] context -- that is, they see the name written down and are trying to pronounce it in accordance with their "standard orthographies" -- or are they encountering these names in an [i:2ziwumdz]oral[/i:2ziwumdz] context -- that is, hearing a name spoken that we (as obligated readers in this situation) are seeing represented as Scott writes it on the page in some orthography or another? I would guess the latter, such that Scott is showing us the name written as someone in Eärwa would write it (or in transliteration or transcription from whatever script system they use :)) and characters from outside the speech community associated with that orthography simply do their best to reproduce the name as it is [i:2ziwumdz]spoken[/i:2ziwumdz] to them, rather than pronounce a name that they see [i:2ziwumdz]written[/i:2ziwumdz] .... Mmmm, more musings and ramblings! :) view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 16 Aug 2008, 17:08 by Cnaiür, Peralogue

[quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] Sounds about right! I think I officially decided I would write a proper novel in 1995. :roll: I've made it through more than a chapter, but it's been a learning process, and I've often found myself what I thought was a long way in, but then deciding things were not right, and starting over again. I think the first few paragraphs of my most recent drafts are still largely the same as when I began -- but everything else has moved and shifted and usually changed utterly! :lol: [/quote:1qxfotaw] Sounds like you're meticulous like me. I have chunks written, but from time to time I go back and change a word here, add a sentence there, its always like I'm never satisfied. I've realized this can be a deadly trap, so I've placed my main story in dormancy months ago (it'll always be my prime story until its complete :lol:), and moved on to scribbling up a couple of other ones. [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] I've done lots of writing over the years, but never imposed much structure, so now I'm trying to think carefully about outlines and plans ... a skeleton over which to paint flesh, layer by layer .... [/quote:1qxfotaw] imho, it's always best to create the skeleton of the story first. From the beginning to the very end. Draw it up like Achamian's map. The rest of the journey is to add everything else. [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] Yes, after reading TDTCB, I decided I could at least get away with a few diaeresis and circumflex marks. :) I do know many readers find that sort of thing distracting, but I like to think it adds a little "seasoning".[/quote:1qxfotaw] Do you eat your salad plain? Without the oil or vinegar or salt or dressing? :P [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] I do think I'll use the circumflex to sporadically mark long vowels where I think an English speaker might otherwise pronounce them short (e.g. to encourage something written [i:1qxfotaw]dûk[/i:1qxfotaw] to be pronounced more like French [i:1qxfotaw]duc[/i:1qxfotaw] than English "duck"), and likewise I think I'll use the diaeresis sporadically to mark out vowels as separate syllables where I think English speakers might otherwise pronounce them as a diphthong in combo with an adjacent vowel (as in French [i:1qxfotaw]Noël[/i:1qxfotaw], "no-ehl") or as silent (e.g. to distinguish something like [i:1qxfotaw]winë[/i:1qxfotaw], "wihn-eh" from English "wine"). Not flawless techniques, of course, but they will add occasionaly "visual interest", if nothing else, and will perhaps remind people that they are not looking at English-language environments. Still, I intend to try to stick reasonably closely to usages that will work for English-speakers. I think I must use "y" for /j/ (the "y" of English "yes"), and "j" for /dʒ/ ("j" in "judge"). I have flirted with using "dg" or "dj" for /dʒ/ ("dg" in "judge"!), but I wonder whether spelling a word pronounced like English "judge" as either [i:1qxfotaw]dgudg[/i:1qxfotaw] or [i:1qxfotaw]djudj[/i:1qxfotaw] would be too weird? Though, actually [i:1qxfotaw]djudj[/i:1qxfotaw] as a kind of pleasantly exotic look to it .... :) Still, I don't think I need the letter "j" for anything else, so I don't really [i:1qxfotaw]dj[/i:1qxfotaw] instead of just plain [i:1qxfotaw]j[/i:1qxfotaw] for the "j" in "judge". Being set on "y" for /j/ (the "y" of English "yes"), that makes it straightforward to use "ny" and "ly" for what Portuguese would write [i:1qxfotaw]nh[/i:1qxfotaw] and [i:1qxfotaw]lh[/i:1qxfotaw] or Spanish would write [i:1qxfotaw]ñ[/i:1qxfotaw] and [i:1qxfotaw]ll[/i:1qxfotaw]. My pain remains in whether to admit "y" to represent that elusive /y/ vowel as in French [i:1qxfotaw]chute[/i:1qxfotaw] or German [i:1qxfotaw]Blüte[/i:1qxfotaw]? So far, my decision has been "no", since I'm pretty sure English speakers would simply pronounce a "y" vowel as a /ai/ diphthong (as in English "why") or possibly a long i vowel (as in English place-names like "Shelby"), and I can't use a German-style "ü" either, since I'm pretty sure I want the diaeresis to distinguish syllabication in vowels. And since that /y/ vowel is not terribly Anglophone, I think I'll to abandon marking it distinctly, and simply write it as an "i" or a "u" ... probably just "i", since I'm actually not very happy with the [i:1qxfotaw]look[/i:1qxfotaw] of the letter "u" in names where I would like a /y/ vowel.[/quote:1qxfotaw] Balance is crucial. Imho, balance must be struck between writing for yourself and writing for an audience. Put in everything [i:1qxfotaw]you[/i:1qxfotaw] want, then balance it out -change it- with what you think would work best for the reader. In your scenario, it would probably help greatly to add an appendix for proper pronunciations (more thorough than Scott's. :D) Then again, mystery breeds faith and devotion. :wink: Just look at us here on this topic. [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] [quote="Cnaiür":1qxfotaw]My Brasilian and Portuguese backgrounds rev that j up in every word I know. Ex. January = Janeiro. Janeiro is pronounced jjj-ah-nay-rrr-oo (the r is also revved up, very much like a loud cat's purr. ).[/quote:1qxfotaw] Ah, I think I'm with you now -- basically a /ʒ/, like the like the French "j" in joue or a bit like the sound of "si" in English "vision". Yeah, even though I'm thinking like an English "j" in "judge", I think I'd be happy with your Portuguese "j", too. :) Only a few steps away, in a sense![/quote:1qxfotaw] You hit the nail on the head. That revved j I speak of is exactly like the English word 'vision', and 'fusion'. [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] Yeah, in a way, I'm seeing that "ny" in Scott's "Gilcûnya" and "Dûnyain" as something like a Portuguese [i:1qxfotaw]nh[/i:1qxfotaw]. So, in Portuguese orthpgraphy .... like a "Guilcunha" and "Dunhain", perhaps! :) [/quote:1qxfotaw] Another nail you hit. I use the Portuguese 'nha' manner of pronouncing the 'nya' in Gilcûnya: But that sound works best with the 'k' sound preceding it, like cunha, and picanha, etc.... But not in words like Dûnyain. Since writing in this topic I've decided to revert back to my original method of pronouncing Gilcûnya with the revved j. Jjj-ill-cunha. For me, it just seems more appropriate. :) [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] [quote="Cnaiür":1qxfotaw]Although, I do wonder if there is a y sound right after the K [in Kûniüric], like K-you-nee-yur-ick. Like literally saying the letter Q. Q-nee-yur-ick.[/quote:1qxfotaw] Ah, though that would be a very "Anglophone" style pronunciation, as that added /j/ before long /u:/ is a particularly English-language thing -- like the typical English-speaker's pronunciation of "Cuba" as /kju:bə/, whereas a Spanish speaker would say /ku:βa/. Thus, I think I lean away from that "K-you-" pronunciation, as I would expect to see that actually written "Kyûniüric". [/quote:1qxfotaw] True. The Q sound is too "anglophone" as you put it. :) It was just a curious thought. [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] [quote="Cnaiür":1qxfotaw]But think it like this. How would the Scylvendi pronounce it and how would, say, the Ainoni pronounce it. The Scylvendi probably use the hard 'g' sound, while the Ainoni use the revved j, or just silence the j. Very much like how Portuguese use the hard g and the revved j for the letter "G" while the Spanish silence the "G". And both are so close together in land and language they're like big brother and little brother to each other in the Iberian peninsula. Which makes me think if that's the reason why Scott will not create pronunciation audio for us. One method of pronunciation for one race/group of people could be entirely different than the pronunciation of the next race/group of people, in the context of his world. [/quote:1qxfotaw] Though are we assuming that the Scylvendi and Ainoni are all encountering these names in a [i:1qxfotaw]literate[/i:1qxfotaw] context -- that is, they see the name written down and are trying to pronounce it in accordance with their "standard orthographies" -- or are they encountering these names in an [i:1qxfotaw]oral[/i:1qxfotaw] context -- that is, hearing a name spoken that we (as obligated readers in this situation) are seeing represented as Scott writes it on the page in some orthography or another? I would guess the latter, such that Scott is showing us the name written as someone in Eärwa would write it (or in transliteration or transcription from whatever script system they use :)) and characters from outside the speech community associated with that orthography simply do their best to reproduce the name as it is [i:1qxfotaw]spoken[/i:1qxfotaw] to them, rather than pronounce a name that they see [i:1qxfotaw]written[/i:1qxfotaw] ....[/quote:1qxfotaw] Using the Scylvendi was a bad example. They don't read nor write. Its only tribal symbols and colours, and swazonds for them. One reason Cnaiür despises the world of men is because they put "breath on parchment". In terms of oral, I use the African person I worked with as this example. Even though people tried to correct him with his pronunciation of 'authentic', he would always say it in his African manner. Each race and group of people have their unique ways of pronunciation no matter what. Also, some group of people can't even do certain pronunciations no matter what. For example, their are many groups/races of people not able to do the "th" sound no matter how hard they try. Words like thick, three, through will always be pronounced as tick, tree, true. So.. once again, I elude to Scott not doing these pronunciation audio files because he doesn't want to cement the pronunciations, when the words could very well be pronounced differently to each reader with their language background, and to the characters themselves and their language backgrounds. It would probably be best if Scott could give us some cross-referencing info on real languages to the PoN languages. On real groups of people to the ones in PoN. Right now I can only assume the cross-referencing with my limited history and language knowledge. :( [quote="carlsefni":1qxfotaw] Mmmm, more musings and ramblings! :) [/quote:1qxfotaw] :D view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 19 Aug 2008, 01:08 by carlsefni, Peralogue

[quote="Cnaiür":jyrjg7b7]Sounds like you're meticulous like me. I have chunks written, but from time to time I go back and change a word here, add a sentence there, its always like I'm never satisfied. I've realized this can be a deadly trap, so I've placed my main story in dormancy months ago (it'll always be my prime story until its complete :lol:), and moved on to scribbling up a couple of other ones.[/quote:jyrjg7b7] Yeah, I've got a few other ideas kicking around -- actually, some that I think are better developed and might be faster to bring to fruition -- but I am determined not to leave my "primary concept" (not that the current primary concept looks a lot like it did all those years ago, but I still think of it as being the primary concept whatever it looks like! :wink:). [quote="carlsefni":jyrjg7b7]imho, it's always best to create the skeleton of the story first. From the beginning to the very end. Draw it up like Achamian's map. The rest of the journey is to add everything else. [/quote:jyrjg7b7] I think you're absolutely right -- and I wish I could say that much and been clear to me from the beginning, but .... :roll: It actually took a long stint of thesis writing in grad school to reveal this wisdom to me -- mostly as a result of not having developed a strong enough outline while writing the thesis! :P But the lessons finally sank in and have served me well since. Now I just need to apply them to my "primary concept" (and all the little conceptlets frolicking in its wake). [quote="Cnaiür":jyrjg7b7][quote="carlsefni":jyrjg7b7] Yes, after reading TDTCB, I decided I could at least get away with a few diaeresis and circumflex marks. :) I do know many readers find that sort of thing distracting, but I like to think it adds a little "seasoning".[/quote:jyrjg7b7] Do you eat your salad plain? Without the oil or vinegar or salt or dressing? :P[/quote:jyrjg7b7] Heh, the way season things, I could strain the limits of Unicode in words and names. :mrgreen: [quote="Cnaiür":jyrjg7b7]Balance is crucial. Imho, balance must be struck between writing for yourself and writing for an audience. Put in everything [i:jyrjg7b7]you[/i:jyrjg7b7] want, then balance it out -change it- with what you think would work best for the reader. In your scenario, it would probably help greatly to add an appendix for proper pronunciations (more thorough than Scott's. :D) Then again, mystery breeds faith and devotion. :wink: Just look at us here on this topic. [/quote:jyrjg7b7] ;) Yes, there's an argument that I should just draft everything with all the names and words in the orthography I like -- and then, should I ever get anyone interested in it, wait for an editor to say "Goldangit, what are all these dots and slashes and things? Get rid of that stuff!" :wink: On the other hand, my two guiding principles are 1) write names in an orthography that lends itself naturally to nudging English speakers towards the intended pronunciation, and 2) the letters and spellings "look good" to me on the page as written. To that end, I'm inclined to stick to the 26 Latin letters that are familiar to English speakers and deploy diacritics relatively sparingly, in cases where I think they help the cause. (It also leaves me with my /y/ vowel problem -- but that's a miniscule issue next to me not completing a draft! :lol:) [quote="Cnaiür":jyrjg7b7]For example, their are many groups/races of people not able to do the "th" sound no matter how hard they try. Words like thick, three, through will always be pronounced as tick, tree, true. [/quote:jyrjg7b7] Or (IMO, worse!), in southeast Britain: fick, free, frue! [quote="Cnaiür":jyrjg7b7]So.. once again, I elude to Scott not doing these pronunciation audio files because he doesn't want to cement the pronunciations, when the words could very well be pronounced differently to each reader with their language background, and to the characters themselves and their language backgrounds. [/quote:jyrjg7b7] Well, I would settle for knowing how native speakers of a particular speech community pronounced their own names. :) [quote="carlsefni":jyrjg7b7][quote="Cnaiür":jyrjg7b7]It would probably be best if Scott could give us some cross-referencing info on real languages to the PoN languages. On real groups of people to the ones in PoN. Right now I can only assume the cross-referencing with my limited history and language knowledge. :( [/quote:jyrjg7b7][/quote:jyrjg7b7] Well, I recall this quote from earlier in this same thread: [quote="Lies And Perfidy":jyrjg7b7]It's worth noting, for those who missed it in the glossary of TTT, that the names we get in the books are chiefly Ketyai interpretations; for instance, "Coithus" is actually "Koütha" in the original Galeoth, which definitely has more of a Norsirai (read: Anglo-Saxon) ring to it. It'd be interesting to see what some of the other equivalents are.[/quote:jyrjg7b7] Now unfortuntely, I haven't got TTT yet :cry: and so I haven't seen the glossary there! So perhaps that would answer more of my questions about pronunciations and even similarities or analogues between some of Eärwa's fictional languages and Real World languages. Time (and successful intercontinental delivery from Amazon) will tell. ;) Oh, and another quote from earlier in the thread: [quote="legatus":jyrjg7b7]I remember mentally pronouncing Cnaiur with an awkward soft c from start to finish on my first read through of TDTCB... then I got to the appendix. "Nay-yur? Who-and-the-what-now? Ohhhhhh... silent c."[/quote:jyrjg7b7] Now that's an interesting thing -- to me, it implies Scott is expressing a name [i:jyrjg7b7]transliterated[/i:jyrjg7b7] from a particular (probably alphabetic) writing system that (much like Modern English) is preserving traces of archaic pronunciation (whatever sound "cn" once represented) in its orthography even though its pronunciation has evolved. (Pretty much parallel to the "kn" in Modern English words like "know", once upon a time pronounced /kn/ but now simply /n/.) view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 20 Aug 2008, 03:08 by carlsefni, Peralogue

[quote="carlsefni":22totesf]My pain remains in whether to admit "y" to represent that elusive /y/ vowel as in French [i:22totesf]chute[/i:22totesf] or German [i:22totesf]Blüte[/i:22totesf]? So far, my decision has been "no", since I'm pretty sure English speakers would simply pronounce a "y" vowel as a /ai/ diphthong (as in English "why") or possibly a long i vowel (as in English place-names like "Shelby"), and I can't use a German-style "ü" either, since I'm pretty sure I want the diaeresis to distinguish syllabication in vowels. And since that /y/ vowel is not terribly Anglophone, I think I'll to abandon marking it distinctly, and simply write it as an "i" or a "u" ... probably just "i", since I'm actually not very happy with the [i:22totesf]look[/i:22totesf] of the letter "u" in names where I would like a /y/ vowel.[/quote:22totesf] Hah! A brainwave: In the narrative, I could simply write either "u" [i:22totesf]or[/i:22totesf] "i" for my /y/ vowel in names, depending on which I preferred. I could reveal the awful truth in the appendices, with rabidly precise pronunciation guides to names .... Not that this matters unless I finish a full draft -- for a start! ;) Back to work! Hmm, there's a thread somewhere on the forum for people writing things .... I should take this particular sub-topic there! view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 21 Aug 2008, 16:08 by Cnaiür, Peralogue

[quote="carlsefni":tn4vtmw1] [quote="Cnaiür":tn4vtmw1]It would probably be best if Scott could give us some cross-referencing info on real languages to the PoN languages. On real groups of people to the ones in PoN. Right now I can only assume the cross-referencing with my limited history and language knowledge. :( [/quote:tn4vtmw1] Well, I recall this quote from earlier in this same thread: [quote="Lies And Perfidy":tn4vtmw1]It's worth noting, for those who missed it in the glossary of TTT, that the names we get in the books are chiefly Ketyai interpretations; for instance, "Coithus" is actually "Koütha" in the original Galeoth, which definitely has more of a Norsirai (read: Anglo-Saxon) ring to it. It'd be interesting to see what some of the other equivalents are.[/quote:tn4vtmw1] Now unfortuntely, I haven't got TTT yet :cry: and so I haven't seen the glossary there! So perhaps that would answer more of my questions about pronunciations and even similarities or analogues between some of Eärwa's fictional languages and Real World languages. Time (and successful intercontinental delivery from Amazon) will tell. ;)[/quote:tn4vtmw1] I have TTT. I've browsed through the encyclopedic glossary but never read its intro. This is some of what it states: "Inrithi scholars commonly rendered names in their Sheyic form, opting for native forms only in the absence of antique Sheyic analogues. So, for instance, the surname Coithus is in fact a Sheyic version of the Gallish "Koütha", and so is rendered as such here. The surname Hoga, on the other hand, has no extant Sheyic form, as so is rendered in the original TyDonni" "The vast majority of the following proper names, then, are simply transliterated from their Sheyic (and in some instance Kûniüric) form." The last sentence in the intro to the TTT Encyclopedic Glossary: "These would be the names as Drusas Achamian knew them." In the TTT glossary, under "Sheyic": "The language of the Ceneian Empire, which still serves, in debased form, as the liturgical language of the Thousand Temples, and as the "common tongue" of the Three Seas" In TDTCB appendices: High Sheyic = Language of the Ceneian Empire Low Sheyic = Language of the Nansur Empire and [i:tn4vtmw1]lingua franca[/i:tn4vtmw1] of the Three Seas The Ceneian and Nansur Empires are north-western empires. The Ceneian was the greater of the 2 empires, and Nansur is the current empire, which morphed out of the Ceneian empire. Now, I'm taking a stab here.... to place it in today's history, the Ceneian Empire = British Empire in all its glory once upon a time, and the Nansur is the now debased British Empire today (or U.S.A). In the context of language, then, High Sheyic = Old English, Low Sheyic = modern English. So, most of the names and places are based on High Sheyic (Old English), which has been transliterated into Low Sheyic (modern English). With this hypothesis, most of the names are actually pronounced in the modern English way, with exceptions here and there. The most notable exceptions being the names that use a circumflex and/or an umlaut. Modern English pronunciation rules apply everywhere else. So.... if this is the case, I have some personal pronunciation corrections to make. What do you think? view post


Re: Names and Pronunciation posted 25 Aug 2008, 18:08 by carlsefni, Peralogue

[quote="Cnaiür":u1i768fh]The Ceneian and Nansur Empires are north-western empires. The Ceneian was the greater of the 2 empires, and Nansur is the current empire, which morphed out of the Ceneian empire. Now, I'm taking a stab here.... to place it in today's history, the Ceneian Empire = British Empire in all its glory once upon a time, and the Nansur is the now debased British Empire today (or U.S.A). In the context of language, then, High Sheyic = Old English, Low Sheyic = modern English.[/quote:u1i768fh] Well, except that Old English (technically speaking, in use from roughly the mid-5th century to the mid-12th century) was long gone when the British Empire was in existence. :) The language of the British Empire was simply Modern English -- perhaps subtlety different from American English at the same period (or from contemporary British and/or American English), but clearly the same language! I suppose the obvious example would be the Roman Empire and the later Romance-speaking kingdoms/nations, in which the modern Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Catalan, Romanian, etc. languages are descended from Latin, though Latin itself remained in use as a (largely) fossilized language of ritual and prestige long after its spoken form(s) evolved into a variety of separate descendant languages. But of course we can make similar comparisons with all modern languages, which of course are evolved forms of some ancestral language. We can also point to various situations where certain languages remained in use as administrative or liturgical languages long after they ceased to be spoken in a particular region or polity (like written Sumerian, which remain in use in the Babylonian empire though the most common spoken language, if not Akkadian itself, was perhaps some other East Semitic language). Or, again, Achaemenid Persian empire, whose rulers presumably spoke some kind of Old Persian but used a form of Aramaic as the official language of government. Well, anyway, I shall need to get [i:u1i768fh]TTT[/i:u1i768fh] and check out the glossary of "names as Drusas Achamian knew them" -- but it sounds to me like there's still relatively little information of the languages of Eärwa available! I'd definitely like to know more about the language families, their relationships and characteristics ... simply because I get a kick out of that stuff. :) view post


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