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Moenghus = Mallahet? posted 02 May 2004, 10:05 by Maltaran, Commoner

This is a theory I'm shamelessly pinching from someone else on the ASOIAF board. It's mentioned when the Emperor meets Mallahet that his arms are scarred like a Scylvendi, and also that he isn't Kianene. The when Cnaiur tells Kellhus how Moenghus escaped the Utemot, he says that he cut his arms like a Scylvendi. view post

posted 02 May 2004, 19:05 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

Interesting. I'll have to re-read TDTCB and pay attention to that. view post

posted 02 May 2004, 19:05 by Atanvarno, Peralogue

I don't buy it. It's too obvious. I picked up on it the first time through and I'm sure a writer like Bakker wouldn't make a mistake that big... view post

posted 02 May 2004, 20:05 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

Unless it wasn't a mistake, and we're supposed to realize that they are the same, but no characters will? view post

posted 03 May 2004, 13:05 by Atanvarno, Peralogue

Perhaps... and it does have a sense to it. But I just don't like the idea, darn it. view post

posted 03 May 2004, 21:05 by LooseCannon, Peralogue

I never really gave much thought to it but leafing back through TDTCB on pg 153 (of the Canadian version at least) it says: [quote:2c8mb3gd]Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And only then because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!"[/quote:2c8mb3gd] I'd have to agree with this theory as it makes the most sense. Mallahet is also described as speaking "flawless Sheyic" which might be a dead giveaway that he is Dunyain. Another interesting tidbit in this passage is Skeaos being uncharacteristically shocked when it is revealed that the Holy War has made an alliance with the Scarlet Spires. I would assume that the Consult intended the Imperial Shiak to be used by the Holy War thus allowing the Nansur Empire to control it and in turn be controlled by the Consult. [/quote] view post

Re: Moenghus = Mallahet? posted 11 May 2004, 09:05 by Norsirai, Commoner

[quote="Maltaran":3egvgfif]This is a theory I'm shamelessly pinching from someone else on the ASOIAF board.[/quote:3egvgfif] But I forgive you Malt, seeing as how I might have initially been wrong. I've been thinking a lot about this of late, having done a reread to prep for The Warrior Prophet, and now I'm second guessing my original theory. It seemed just a little too simple, but then again, it seems too simple for Maithanet to be Moengus. How about [i:3egvgfif]both[/i:3egvgfif] then? It breaks down like this. The whys, we don't, but we [i:3egvgfif]do[/i:3egvgfif] know that Moengus left Ishuäl when Kellhus was very young, more or less during his infancy. Whether he was captured or not matters little, as being a Dûnyain there's not much doubt to me that Moengus chose to spend time amongst the Scylvendi as a slave-- why, I don't know. Why he had to purchase his 'freedom' by killing Skiotha I can't do much more than speculate on either, but I shall restrain myself as this theory is fletched as it is, the proverbial arrow knocked and let loose toward the sun. Most probably, a miss. Be that as it may, bearing on. We also learn that Moengus marked himself with swazond (did he earn them-- he left the Scylvendi just this side of a slave, I doubt the pride of the People could countenance a slave scarring himself with their ritual) he also dyed his hair black. Then he went south. What he did, where he went, we don't know... but here's what I was thinking. I'd posit that Moengus did meet the Cishaurim, and he became Mallahet. Did he do this with purpose, well, maybe not at first. Anyways, at first glance, when I saw Mallahet I thought right off, [i:3egvgfif]There's our man[/i:3egvgfif]. But a few things stuck in my craw as time wore on, most notably, how exactly [i:3egvgfif]did[/i:3egvgfif] Maithanet know about the war between the Cishaurim and the Scarlet Spires? Well, because he's Maithanet too. Not at the same time, of course. I believe the person who met with Xerius as envoy of the Cishaurim was someone who was made to resemble Mallahet. I think it was one of the Ikurei's muckety mucks who exclaimed, "[i:3egvgfif]You're[/i:3egvgfif] Mallahet?" I picked up on the quirk of the remark on the reread, the odd accentuation. It seemed like incredulity at his identity, rather than merely awe at who he was-- if that makes any sense. After all, why were Mallahet's eyes put out? Now, we know Maithanet came from the south. And in two years or so cleaned out and cleaned up the Thousand Temples, which had been ripe with inborn intrigues and heavy with foreign spies. The men we've met who've had contact with him remark at his preternatural ability to sway others, and there's no doubt how cunning he is. Take that with his blue eyes, most likely covered arms (concealing his swazond) and his ability to recognize the Few, and we have what would [i:3egvgfif]seem[/i:3egvgfif] like one of the Few, but is possibly just a red herring. I'd reckon once known what to look for, a Dûnyain could recognize the Few as well. Further, being not one of the Few, I'd suspect it would be easier to pick up the type of sorcery the Cishaurim employ, seeing as how being one of the Few denotes a certain natural affinity (which Kellhus himself might or might not possess). Now, I know I'm really reaching here, and not entirely coherent due to the extremity of the hour, but I'll try to be cohesive as I wrap this up. I believe Moengus left the Scylvendi and eventually made his way to the Cishaurim. During this time he learned of their war with the Scarlet Spires, and somehow of the Consult as well, those ancient enemies of his line. Thus he decided on a course of action. He set out to conquer the Thousand Temples, as only the Shriah could declare a Holy War. Judging by the Cishaurim's ability to send visions (evidenced by the fake-Mallahet's treat with Xerius) I believe Moengus then sent the visions to the Dûnyain and his son, to bring Kellhus forth, while he gathered, manipulated and bound most of the Three Seas to bring them to Shimeh. Why? I don't know with certainty, but why were the Consult in Sumna? Just to watch Achamian? I don't buy it. So, I think Moengus is bringing everyone together in what, I suspect, will be a diabolically engineered wedding of the Holy War to the Cishaurim, a desperate bid perhaps (or a cunning cast into the stream of probabilities) in order to fight and have a chance of defeating the Consult and their allies. How else to make the Three Seas believe in the Consult once more, than by manipulating them to slaughter each other for a while, make an exhausted yet simmering peace, and put forth an undeniable 'discovery' of the Consult's culpability to incite them to the Holy of Holy Wars? From the Thousand Thousand Halls of Ishuäl, to the Thousand Temples... it would seem that the Thousand Fold Thought would be Moengus's. It's quite possible the Architect had been out-designed. view post

posted 11 May 2004, 15:05 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

That was truly stunning! It all makes sense, too, except for one element I find odd. Why would Maithanet/Mallahet/Moenghus want to set the three seas against one another just prior to the war for survival. It will weaken them of manpower and materials, and seems like a poor move to me. Better to rally them around a holy war against the Consult from the very beginning, it seems to me. Very impressive theory. view post

posted 13 May 2004, 11:05 by Iceman, Candidate

Yes, but how to convince the different factions not only that the Consult exists, but that they ought to combine forces and fight him as well? view post

posted 13 May 2004, 14:05 by Atanvarno, Peralogue

Even for a Dûnyain a war holds to many variables. I'm sure there is a passage where Kellhus says as much. So why create a situation where you use war as a tool. While you can predict the general direction of such things, the details will generally be beyond you, and any of those details might be important. It all seems to chancey. view post

posted 13 May 2004, 17:05 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

That last post was from me, I just forgot to log in... view post

Well... posted 13 May 2004, 21:05 by Norsirai, Commoner

In Sumna, Achamian more or less says to Inrau and Esmenet that Psukhe, or Cishaurim 'sorcery,' has such a different set of metaphysics that all the Schools are frightened by its implications. It cannot be 'seen' as sorcery he says, (‘seen’ referenced as how the Few ‘see’ each other here, imo) and also states in that scene or a different one that the Cishaurim [i:1zh285ey]are[/i:1zh285ey] immune to the chorae. So there you go. What I don't recall however, TH, is where it states or implies that Kellhus can 'see' sorcery? Now, to clarify, I stated that I think Moengus is Maithanet and Mallahet, as two personas he has donned toward supremacy. However, you misunderstood me. I posited that the Mallahet that met with Xerius to open the dialogue between the Cishaurim and the Nansur was not Moengus/Mallahet, but rather someone made to resemble Mallahet… as Moengus was no longer with the Cishaurim but in Sumna, under his new identity as Shriah of the Thousand Temples (my theory in a nutshell). As to what he's up to, that's up in the air. At first thought, bearing in mind I'm judging motivation from behind the veneer of my theory, I figured he was gathering everyone. The Call to Battle, if you will. But I'll put aside my Moengus = Maithanet and Mallahet theory for the moment, as the motivations for the whole game are more important. I'll try to frame my thoughts more cogently than last time. The burning question that comes to mind then, is obviously 'why?' Let's assume that as Mallahet, Moengus has covert control of the Cishaurim. The Cishaurim, according to Achamian I believe, are the most powerful nation (culture? league?) in the Three Seas. So, why send Maithanet to subvert control of the Thousand Temples to bring them to Shimeh under the guise of a war of reconquest? I can think of none other than a Dunyain who could successfully coordinate the assassination of the head of the Scarlet Spires School. So I'm going to put forth the supposition here that Moengus put that together (while with the Cishaurim) in order to ensure that the most powerful enclave of Schoolmen [i:1zh285ey]would[/i:1zh285ey] be on board with Maithanet's Holy War. Again, why would Moengus engineer it this way? Why else attempt to control the Cishaurim [i:1zh285ey]and[/i:1zh285ey] the Holy War, other than to combine them at some point? It’s manipulation on a massive scale, and it smacks of [i:1zh285ey]more[/i:1zh285ey] than mere conquest. A lesson for Kellhus? For the Consult? Look, I failed and am in full on ramble more right now, so I’m just going to run with it and toss coherency to the wind. We don't know much about the Dunyain, but we know (I think) that deception is what they perceive as the greatest crime. Yet the Dunyain we've seen are neck deep in it. So, maybe the only way to teach the Three Seas the truth is to get them into a position where they can learn (whether of the great principles and truths of the Dunyain or of the Consult, I don't know, tho would hazard a guess at the latter). Recall, that Maithanet is derivative of Mai'tathana in Thoti-Eannorean, which means- Instruction. And I don't for a minute believe that Moengus would leave the 'lessons' to a student or agent of his own. But, if one of the two [i:1zh285ey]is[/i:1zh285ey] a student of Moengus, my money is on that being Mallahet, not Maithanet. But why would Mallahet have swazond on his arms, unless Moengus at one time [i:1zh285ey]was[/i:1zh285ey] Mallahet? So I fall back to my original theory. view post

posted 13 May 2004, 21:05 by Norsirai, Commoner

[quote="Iceman":28nug5m7]Yes, but how to convince the different factions not only that the Consult exists, but that they ought to combine forces and fight him as well?[/quote:28nug5m7] As to this, I previously addressed it too. Basically, I figure the only way is to have each side suffer somewhat grievous losses, manufacture a momentary peace, and then use some kind of evidence (or just manipulate both sides into believing) that the Consult was behind getting them to weaken each other... before bringing on their Apocalypse. It's dicey, I know. How else [i:28nug5m7]could[/i:28nug5m7] it be done? Even if Moengus could prove beyond a doubt that the Consult exist, by having one of their agents imprisoned at hand perhaps, by itself is not incentive enough to ally. There needs some kind of an inciting imperative for the remainder of the Three Seas and the Cishaurim to become allies against the Consult and their allies, various Nonmen (like the lovely fellow who tore of Geshrunni's face) and Sranc and who knows what else. Honestly, I think the Consult has a clue. Not only were they in Sumna, not to simply to spy on Achamian, but they've penetrated the Shrial Knight's as well. I doubt they'd be all over the Holy War unless they thought Moengus was all over them. view post

posted 13 May 2004, 21:05 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

I see now, Norsirai. You are saying Moenghus would frame the Consult and get everyone upset with them. Makes sense now. view post

posted 13 May 2004, 22:05 by Peter, Auditor

Norsiri, you say that Moenghus must be controlling the Crusade and that the Consult are only involved in it in order to counter him... Whilst I haven't made my mind up yet and whilst your theory has a number of strengths the presence of the Consult in the Crusade can prove nothing. If the Crusade were not the result of Moenghus, the Consult would still have a vested interest in it. This is because with him there is no reason for the Consult's treachery and manipulations to be discovered and so no reason for them to be incovered. In that case the Crusade benefits the Consult by damaging the fighting capacities of its enemies without really threatening them... Of course I could be totally wrong in this and as I said before your argument does seem to have other strengths. view post

posted 14 May 2004, 01:05 by Norsirai, Commoner

No, that's a good point. And hey, I readily admit I could be wrong. After all, the latter bit about the Consult knowing... I'd think they wouldn't suffer the scions of the Anasurimbor line out and about in Earwe once more, if they knew. To illustrate, the mutual examination of Kellhus and Skeos. Clearly, each were perplexed at the other. Just one of the many holes in the theory. It's a work in progress. view post

posted 14 May 2004, 08:05 by Harren, Commoner

There are some interesting theories here; but there was at least one false assumption I saw; the Cishaurim ARE not immune to chorea. Bakker himself mentioned this somewhere in the Q&A thread: "They're almost as fatal to the Cishaurim as well, though the mechanics differ. The Inrithi would be in a whole heap of trouble otherwise" view post

posted 14 May 2004, 21:05 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

The reason I thought Kellhus could see sorcery as well as sorcerers was the following passage on page 525, where he is trying to figure out Skeaos's deal: "How was this possible? Sorcery? If so, it possessed nothing of the strange torsion he'd experienced with the Nonman he'd battled so long ago. Sorcery, Kellhus had realized, was inexplicably grotesque - like the scribblings of a child across a work of art -though he did not know why. All he knew was that he could distinguish sorcery from the world and sorcerers from common men." The fact that he can see sorcery, not just read the fact of a person being a sorcerer in their face, is what made me think he was one of the Few. But as someone pointed out, he can't be one of the Few or Cishaurim because the Chorae that Cnaiur threw him didn't hurt him. Maybe I misread the passage... Or maybe there is some Dunyain potential for sorcery that their training gives them, but had never been tapped because they shun/disbelieve those things. This creates a compelling case for Moenghus being Mainthanet since the latter can distinguish sorcerers... Mainthanet is also pretty good at sniffing out spies. But here's my question - how could Sarcellus have escaped his notice? His rank is just below the Grandmaster of the Shrial knights, so he would have met the Shrial at some point. Kellhus noticed the weirdness of Skeaos immediately. Since we know that Sarcellus is the same kind of creature, wouldn't Moenghus have noticed it? Especially since he is looking at faces for spies? view post

posted 14 May 2004, 22:05 by Atanvarno, Peralogue

[quote="Tattooed Hand":z6wdtfn4]But as someone pointed out, he can't be one of the Few or Cishaurim because the Chorae that Cnaiur threw him didn't hurt him. Maybe I misread the passage... [/quote:z6wdtfn4]I thought a chorae only worked on those with the mark of sorcery, i.e. someone who has actually utilised it, rather than the Few in general? view post

posted 14 May 2004, 23:05 by Norsirai, Commoner

Point to Harren, about the chorae and the Cishaurim. Checked it out, it's true. Atanvarno as well-- Inrau wasn't a complete Mandate Schoolman, thus the chorae that brushed his skin didn't kill him immediately, which as we've been told so far is precisely what happens to Schoolmen. About Maithanet (if he's Moengus) not noticing Sarcellus, Tattooed, another good point. I don't know. Maybe Maithanet's only contact with the Shrial Knight's is through Grandmaster Gotian? Or maybe Maithanet [i:2dzt4ag6]has[/i:2dzt4ag6] noted it, and like Kellhus, did not act? Lots of questions. view post

posted 15 May 2004, 17:05 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

It would make sense for Maithanet to leave Sarcellus where he is, however, if he intends to use the Consult as an enemy. He could then point and say "look, they're everywhere!" view post

posted 15 May 2004, 17:05 by LooseCannon, Peralogue

I think Maithanet does indeed know about Sarcellus and whoever else is like him. We don't really know what Maithanet's motivations are right now but I would be very surprised to find him nothing more than a holy man. The way he manipulated the Thousand Temples into a cohesive mass in so short a time speaks volumes. Does anyone else think that there might be more than just Moenghus and Kellhus in the Three Seas who are of the Dunyain? The Chorae are interesting. Right now it appears the only ones not affected by them are the Consult. The Cishaurim are affected, but in a different fashion then the Scarlet Spires, Mandate Schoolmen, Imperial Shiak, etc. Since the Mandate draw their knowledge from the sorcery of the North I wonder if the Nonmen are affected by the Chorae as well? view post

Maithanet.. posted 18 May 2004, 14:05 by Attilles Pr'Diem, Commoner

I think Maithanet has to be either a creature of Moenghus, ie. trained by Moenghus, or a creature of the Consult. If Moenghus is allied with the Consult, then he could be both. It's possible that Maitanet [i:8ikwc0as]is[/i:8ikwc0as] Moenghus but I personally think that's unlikely. I think Maithanet is almost certainly a part of the Consult, simply because of Sarcellus. I just don't see Maithanet being Moenghus or trained by him and letting Sarcellus hold such a high position, unless he was also a part of the Consult. For me, it breaks down like this: Moenghus is either with the Consult or against them. If he's with them, then probably they are manipulating both sides of the holy war to weaken and demoralize as many people as possible before ..whatever they're planning to do..and then maybe he's calling kellhus to him in order to kill him, thus doing away with the propheciy that an Anasurimbor will come at the end of the world and all that...or maybe not, just an idea. If Moenghus is against the Consult, then probably the Cishaurim are as well, and that's why the Consult, in the form of Maithanet, has incited a holy war against them. So Moenghus called his son to help or to prepare him for his prophesied destiny errr..or something like that. If Moenghus is indifferent or ignorant of the Consult....well then I have no idea :) view post

posted 18 May 2004, 15:05 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

I don't think, correct me if I'm worng, that it says anywhere that an Anasurimbor will save the world. It just says he will come. So essentially, with the presence of Kellhus, or even Moenghus, actually, the nearing of the end of the world is announced. However, it is still unclear exactly [i:3bq0iw0l]how[/i:3bq0iw0l] it will end. view post

posted 10 Jun 2004, 08:06 by The Consult, Candidate

I believe that Maithanet is part of, or at least allied with the consult. My main reason for this are the deaths of the informers that Achamian was using to gather information. Those 2 deaths were Geshrunni (who was killed by the consult after telling Achamian of the war between the Scarlet spires and the Cishaurim) and Inrau (killed by the consult after spying on the Thousand Temples for Achamian). Now why would the consult want these 2 informers dead? So here's my theory... The consult have been tracking Achamian, (as seen by the skin changer in Momemn) and are trying to prevent him getting any info on the Scarlet Spires and the Thousand Temples...the 2 main factions of the holy war....lead by none other than Maithanet. The consult/Maithanet don't want Akka gettin to the heart of the matter because that very heart is the consult. Couple this with the fact that Maithanet can see the Few, though Akka cannot see him...and this leads to another mystery, maybe some form of Nonman sorcery? What comes to mind now though is why doesn't the consult just kill off Akka? Well perhaps Akka is actually too powerful. There is some evidence to this effect....on pg 490 Eleazaras is reflecting on his meeting with Akka and thinks that Akka would have been able to stop him had he tried to stop the riot with sorcery. He then goes on to think that he had been cowed by a mere Mandate field spy. Evidence that Akka has a bit more power at his disposal than it seems? view post

posted 10 Jun 2004, 12:06 by Harren, Commoner

Well, Simas and Nautzera, two members of the Quorum, the leading council of the Madate School, had a conversation after their talk with Achamian. It seems that the Mandate keeps losing their informers (like Geshrunni etc.) but no Mandate Schoolman is yet attacked; so it has not only happened with Achamian, but with every Mandate Schoolmen in the field. Like the 'thing' said, that assaulted Geshrunni: ' The Mandate has many eyes; we have many plucking to do' The consult wants the Mandate blind, and further, as the conversaton between Simas and Nautzera implied, the Consult knows how to find the informers, because there is a traitor in their midst:one of the Mandate is betraying them all. ----- About Maithanet: I believe that a sorceror can only be seen by another sorcerer, if he uses the sorcery often; Maithanet does not use it, so can not be seen; I'm not entirely sure about this, but I thought this was implied during a discussion between Inrau and Achamian, in which this subject was brought up. view post

posted 10 Jun 2004, 14:06 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

As far as I know there are two different groups of people killing off spies. One is Mainthanet, who is killing off everyone's spies in the Thousand Temples and his actions are legal because the penalty for spying there is death. The Mandate is not singled out here, the Emperor and the Scarlet Spires have no spies either. This is not particularly suspect since we know that Mainthanet's generally been cleaning house in the Thousand Temples and this could be part of cleaning out corruption. Then there is the Consult that is following Mandate operatives. That's different. Blinding the Mandate is an obvious tactic, since the Mandate are the only ones who believe in the Consult anymore. As for the whole business of ripping off people's faces, there seem to be two possibilities. One is for a nice addition to a Nonman's cloak. Another is that it provides some blueprint for a Consult skin spy. Although the Scarlet Spires knows the identity of Geshrunni so he can't work as a spy, but they don't know the id of the older corpse. I personally would be flabbergasted if Mainthanet was working for the Consult. Bakker gives us clues about people who are - their eyes are strangely dead, they are pathetic, gross, etc. We are not given these kinds of clues with him. But there is a possibility that he is the older corpse. Five years is the right amount of time. As for Mohengus, he must know the Mandate prophecy about an Anasurimbor coming at the end of the world and in asking for his son to come to Shimeh, he knew what he would be setting in motion... At this point I am dying for the TWP to give me some new info to toy with... view post

posted 11 Jun 2004, 17:06 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

Why does everyone keep focusing on Kellhus? Why couldn't Moenghus be the Anasurimbor at the end of the world? So far, unless I am missing something, Kellhus hasn't done anything that Moenghus hasn't. view post

posted 12 Jun 2004, 09:06 by Loof, Peralogue

[quote:3nbl7xke]Why does everyone keep focusing on Kellhus? Why couldn't Moenghus be the Anasurimbor at the end of the world?[/quote:3nbl7xke] Actualy i have been hopeing that he is... that way that asshole Khellus could get his anoying ass kicked badly without messing up all the foreshadowing =) view post

posted 14 Apr 2005, 00:04 by Scilvenas, Auditor

[quote="Sovin Nai":30mhrkyj]Unless it wasn't a mistake, and we're supposed to realize that they are the same, but no characters will?[/quote:30mhrkyj] The stock definition of "dramatic irony", IIRC. view post

posted 30 Oct 2007, 18:10 by Paxol, Commoner

[quote="Sovin Nai":1fgldigu]That was truly stunning! It all makes sense, too, except for one element I find odd. Why would Maithanet/Mallahet/Moenghus want to set the three seas against one another just prior to the war for survival. It will weaken them of manpower and materials, and seems like a poor move to me. Better to rally them around a holy war against the Consult from the very beginning, it seems to me. Very impressive theory.[/quote:1fgldigu] Maybe Maithanet/Moenghus does not care about the people of this world as much as he cares to see the Consult destroyed. To him these people may be nothing more than tools to do his bidding and serve as a means to an end. view post

posted 30 Oct 2007, 23:10 by Harrol, Moderator

That is exactly what people are to the Dunyain. A means to an end. view post

posted 01 Nov 2007, 00:11 by Shell, Peralogue

Harrol, I see that you still have that cynical streak... :wink: I bet you would feel better if you were a Packer fan. view post

posted 01 Nov 2007, 02:11 by Harrol, Moderator

If I was a Packer fan then life would truly have no meaning. On the bright side Shell there are hospitals that specialize in treating people who are Packer fans. I heard that in some instances they can lead semi-normal lives. view post

posted 02 Nov 2007, 00:11 by Shell, Peralogue

Ah Harrol, you always cheer me up so... :lol: view post


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