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Holy war goals - Consult and Kellhus posted 30 May 2006, 09:05 by kalbear, Candidate

Something I've been very confused about after reading TTT is the overall goal of the Consult with respect to the Holy War. From Skeaos being a skinspy (and encouraging the war to some degree) to the Synthese discussions with Sarcellus, I had thought that the goal of the Consult was to wipe out the Cishaurim - and thanks to TTT, presumably because of Moe's probing and discovering the skinspies in Fanim/Cish hands. What's weird about this is that this seems to be Kellhus' ultimate goal as well - or it might as well be given the ending. It's not like he seemed to care if the Cishaurim were alive or dead, or whether the Scarlet Spires survived - or really, if any of the sorcerous entities survived. As far as I can tell Kellhus wiped out the last of the Cishaurim after he did his trinary utterance/inutterance. So, first question: why exactly was the Consult's goal to wipe out the Cishaurim? Second question: why did Kellhus do the Consult's job for them? Third question: if the Mandate was such a mortal enemy of the Consult's, why were they not doing more against the Mandate from the onset? I seem to recall that Sarcellus had both a Chorae in his possession and was happily hanging around Akka/Esme at many times, yet never bothered to kill him - why let Akka hang around at all but do things like kill Inrau? view post

posted 30 May 2006, 13:05 by Murrin, Peralogue

1) Their spies started disappearing in Shimeh. This was because of Moenghus, of course, but they didn't know it. They decided the Cishaurim had discovered a way to find the skin-spies, and that because of this the Cishaurim had to be wiped out. 2) Kellhus had to kill the Cishaurim, to finish the Holy War. He'd united the Inrithi under him through the mechanism of a war to destroy the Cishaurim; not to follow through with it wouldn't particularly compromise the position he had set up for himself, but it would seem odd to the Men of the Tusk. In the end it doesn't matter much - Kellhus has the Gnosis, and the Psukhe just isn't useful for his purposes. And since Kellhus can find skin-spies as well, the Consult's reason for wiping the Cishaurim out no longer applies. 3) I think the Consult knows how the Mandate are viewed in the Three Seas. While the Mandate view themselves as the enemy of the Consult, the Consult don't consider them worth dealing with in any drastic way - for one thing, they don't have any influence among the Inrithi. For another, killing off Mandate might draw too much attention: They're a laughing stock, so why would anyone want to kill them? view post

posted 30 May 2006, 15:05 by mr nobuddy, Candidate

Murrin already answered most of it, but an addition: who says that the Cishaurim are completely destroyed? If I were the supreme commander of the Cishaurim, I'd send a few of my teachers and scholars who are good at educating their pupils somewhere remote, where they can train new members and keep their knowledge intact. Or did I miss something while reading? view post

posted 30 May 2006, 16:05 by kalbear, Candidate

No, it could have happened that way, Mr. Nobuddy - though the implication to me was that the Cishaurim - who were always remarked to be weaker as a whole than the Scarlet Spires - were almost at the brink of destroying all the SS folks. Until Kellhus popped by and snapped all their necks. If the Cishaurim are around, I think they're such a small threat that they're not important. Furthermore, because they're not able to detect skinspies by themselves they're probably inconsequential to the Consult at this point, especially given the threat that Kellhus implies. [quote:w5g8rjgq]He'd united the Inrithi under him through the mechanism of a war to destroy the Cishaurim; not to follow through with it wouldn't particularly compromise the position he had set up for himself, but it would seem odd to the Men of the Tusk. [/quote:w5g8rjgq]This is completely false. Most of the Men of the Tusk didn't care about the Cishaurim other than that they were an obstacle. The only reason that the Cishaurim were at all consequential was that their involvement made the Scarlet Spires want to join the fight. Remember - the holy war (and Maithanet's pronouncement) was to take Holy Shimeh. And in the end, they had done this and united both Fanim and Inrithi; at that point, the Cishaurim were inconsequential and the Men of the Tusk no longer cared about their original purpose, anyway; all were united under the power of Kellhus and Maithanet. The only reason I can see that Kellhus had to destroy the Cishaurim was that they would oppose him because of Moe - but that seems odd to me, given both how Moe died and Kellhus' power over others. view post

posted 30 May 2006, 18:05 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:27bzc4l4]This is completely false. Most of the Men of the Tusk didn't care about the Cishaurim other than that they were an obstacle.[/quote:27bzc4l4] I disagree i would say that the Men of the Tusk did care about the Cishuarim considering the fact that they are the priests of Fanimry. I mean if your gonna take out a religion your gonna take out the guys at the top. view post

posted 30 May 2006, 18:05 by kalbear, Candidate

But the goal wasn't to take out a religion. The war was to retake Shimeh, and as stated later on it's clear that Kellhus unites the entire Inri/Fanim group together under one religion and one view - with the Men of the Tusk's blessing. If he can unite the Inri with the Fanim, surely he can allow the religious leaders to live as long as they go along with him, right? All I'm saying is that the Cishaurim were not the primary goal of the Holy War, and utterly obliterating them was not the primary point of the Holy War. Most Men of the Tusk didn't care about the leaders of a religion or anything like that; repeated throughout the book, they wanted to retake Holy Shimeh from the infidels. view post

posted 30 May 2006, 18:05 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

They were trying to destroy Fanimry and retake Shimeh. If you think forcing people to convert to Inrithism and killing those who resisted is not destroying a religion I dont know what you would call it. He didnt unify the religions he converted them all to Inrithism(well his own personal form of it). view post

posted 30 May 2006, 19:05 by kalbear, Candidate

Wow. I guess I totally missed the absolute forcing of anyone to convert or die. Must check that out. Still, what's to stop the Cishaurim from converting? after all, isn't that what Moe did? view post

posted 30 May 2006, 19:05 by mr nobuddy, Candidate

I doubt the Inrithi would allow it. Being of an opposing religion is one thing, if you actually hate the opposing religion, you wish to give a face to that religion. Otherwise it's just a concept 'out there'. The Inrithy gave face to it by linking the population of Shimeh to it, but more importantly, the people in charge in Chimeh. Who were they: the Chishaurim. Link this to the idea that sorcery is blasphemy, and you get the perfect potion for pure hate. Unless Kellhus manipulates his legions into accepting Cishaurim, I doubt that they'll even allow any blind men to convert. I could be wrong of course. You never know what will happen in 20 years time.... view post

posted 31 May 2006, 18:05 by FanManSC, Candidate

I think that Kellhus needed them dead in order to unite the religions under himself. The Inrithi are fine with various forms of the God, but the Fanim are not, and the Cishaurim, as the priests of Fanimry, would oppose him more than anyone. view post

posted 12 Nov 2006, 02:11 by DELETED, Subdidact

DELETED view post

posted 13 Nov 2006, 08:11 by vercint, Peralogue

Well, I don't think you can really speak of any one person or faction's goals as a determinant in the context of the thousandfold thought; since everyone is simply acting out their interests as the TT predicts their goals are not significant. Although it is never explicitly stated, the implication all along is that the TT covers every mutation from the point where Maithanet declares the Holy War. Consequently, every participant faction has some reason for joining -- the Nansur want to regain their empire, the Scarlet Spires want vengeance on the Cishaurim, the Inrithi want the Holy Land, etc etc. The Consult are no different; they want to destroy the Cishaurim because they fear them since Moenghus has discovered the skin-spies. Some of these goals are even accomplished, although not in the fashion any faction desired: "If all human events possess purpose, then all human deeds possess purpose. And yet when men vie with men, the purpose of no man comes to fruition: the result always falls somewhere in between. The purpose of deeds, then, cannot derive from the purposes of men, because all men vie with all men. This means the deeds of men must be willed by something else than men. From this it follows that we are all slaves. Who then is our Master?" In this case, the Thousandfold Thought is the unseen master that governs all events, and hence the only goal that is relevant is that of the TT -- to unify all the Three Seas under the ideology and rule of one man: Kellhus. But even his goals are simply part of the TT. view post

posted 14 Nov 2006, 06:11 by Harrol, Moderator

Wow great explanation I really liked that Vercint. view post


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