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Super-Sorcery posted 04 Mar 2006, 03:03 by unJon, Auditor

So I proposed this theory in the Q&A section, but I thought that I should move it here as the discussion was getting off-topic. Psukhe is the sorcery of heart. The Cishaurim remember the "timbre" of God's voice while forgetting the meanings. Getting the Voice almost right is Kellhus's explanation of why the Few cannot see it. Gnosis is the sorcery of the mind. They remember the meanings of the God. My theory is that these two sorceries are like two different axes on a Cartesian plane. The mandate are strong on the Intellect scale and the Cish on the Passion scale. I speculate in AE that someone will learn to combine the best of both. The power of the Gnosis without the Mark!!! My guess is that it will not be Kellhus. He is probably weak on heart just like Moenghus. But maybe Kellhus could raise a child that is strong on intellect (like the Dunyain) and strong in passion. Intellectually, Kellhus might understand how to raise a child like that. So I'm guessing that his son (daughter?) will surpass him in magic by creating the super sorcery of Psukhe and Gnosis. Becoming the true Shaman and continuing the Dune parellels (Leto overtaking the strength of Mau'dib.) view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 09:03 by Peter, Auditor

I'd have to go with the impossibility of mixing the two schools of magic. Think about it, the power of the sorceries is not in [i:2reymjnq]being[/i:2reymjnq] passionate/intellectual in general, it is in using passion/intellect to remake the world. The essence of gnosis and anagogic magic is purity of meaning, it is a wholly intellectual exercise. To add in passion to the actual sorcery is to dilute the purity of that meaning, after all, how often do people really know what on earth they are saying (hell, even thinking) when they are in some heightened emotional state. Moreover, to add intellect to passion [i:2reymjnq]is[/i:2reymjnq] to cool it, because the use of intellect stands apart from the passions and to analyse things without weighting them according to our raging emotions. Basically the use of one sort of sorcery is, I would suggest, by definition (i.e. defining what it is to use sorcery and then what passion and intellect require/are) separate from the use of another. What might be possible is that the same one individual could use both types of magic, so at one point using rapture to pour fire down upon the enemy, and then later willfully tearing up the world with semantic purity, but only insofar as these two are separate. Well that's what I think at least. view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 10:03 by Diem Kaye, Candidate

You know, Unjon, this made me think of something interesting. Probably not at all possible with the metaphysics of Bakker's world, but it's just an interesting little tidbit to mull over. For some reason, ever since they were brought up, I've been really curious about the halos around Kellhus's hands. We know that he's not doing it on purpose, because for one, if he was using a regular type of sorcery to create them, Akka and all the other sorcerers would be able to spot it for the ruse it was right away. Secondly, Kellhus himself seems to be confused about their origin. Now we know that the Psukhe is a sorcery that can't be seen by the Few and is also tied with passion and emotion. We also know that when Kellhus was up on that circumfix he started weeping and experiencing some uncontrollable emotions at the same time. Now since Kellhus has always been one of the Few we can assume that he could've started using sorcery at any time. All he was lacking was the training. So perhaps Kellhus somehow dipped into the Psukhe without knowing and managed to bestow these haloes upon himself without concious thought. Didn't he first see the haloes around himself when he first got down from the tree? If that were true, perhaps somewhere along the twenty years he starts to learn a little bit more about the Psukhe, just enough to help him train one of his sons in the way you suggested. Like I said, it's probably not even possible within the rules of Earwa and I doubt Scott would have the origin of the haloes be something that flimsy, but it's just an entertaining thought. view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 12:03 by Dawnstorm, Candidate

I see no reason why a "Super Sorcery" as unJon describes it should not exist. It's highly unlikely that any of the Schools would come up with it, but look at Sorcery from a Dûnyain's perspective and all the ways it's done derive from different traditions. The very fact that there are so many different Schools shows that there are many different ways to approach Sorcery. I tend to see the mind-heart division as a function of the Sorceror's way to make sense of Sorcery, rather than as an aspect of "Magic" itself. Perhaps it [i:232f4kpc]is[/i:232f4kpc] impossible to "remember" both "God's mind and heart" at the same time; it's just that I saw no indication of that in the text. view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 17:03 by zarathustra, Peralogue

I kind of asked Scott a similar question here is his answer: The idea is that sorcery is primarily discursive, and as such, tied to the ability to see (there's a long tradition in continental philosophy critiquing the centrality of visual metaphors in Western philosophical discourse). The psukhe, on the other hand, is primarily emotive. So the idea would be that where sorcery captures fragments of the God's intellect, the psukhe expresses instants of the God's heart. Since the former is cognitive, which is to say, admits of being more or less true, it necessarily falls short. Since the latter is not cognitive, it is indistiguishable from the God's own world. [/quote] So I wouldn't have said its possible to combine the two from that. view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Diem Kaye, Im pretty sure Kellhus had the haloes around his hands before coming down from the tree. I think there is a passage somewhere in WP that Serwe talks about his hands being golden or haloed. However it might be quite possible that the more time he spent in Earwa he became more emotional(more human) and unknowingly tapped into the Psukhe, but it seems highly unlikely. view post

posted 04 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

It's an interesting idea. Personally though I think we'll only see part of this come true. I suspect there is a good chance ( though certainly nto a given) that Kellhus, in the twenty years time that he now has to dwell somewhat on these matters, will come up with some revelations. One of these migth well be finding a way to become invulnerable. This would not be unreal. We have learned from Achamian that Kellhus' mind was beyond anything he had witnessed. Kellhus even went sofar as to correct and re-write the thesis of Earwa greats like Ajencis, and the great mathematicians. The vulnerability by chorea, which can fall into the hands of anyone, must be a major downside that Kellhus must undountedly be considering and seek to remedy. view post

posted 06 Mar 2006, 20:03 by unJon, Auditor

Hmm...good question. I would say no, because they would still be grasping both imperfectly. view post

posted 07 Mar 2006, 16:03 by unJon, Auditor

I don't see it. I think that would be a very watered down definition of "godhead." view post

posted 08 Mar 2006, 03:03 by unJon, Auditor

Aside - Is Guest 2 your registered name? Back on topic - it begs your question not mine. Begging the question only applies when it makes circular one of MY assumptions. You are the one talking about godhead. Do you need to ascend to do either Psukhe or Gnosis? No. I'm not convinced that by combining you need anything more than to be of the Few, strong Intellect, and strong Passions. I think you are making the "godhead" threshold too low by saying you need to ascend to combine them. Conceded that we are all just speculating based on little or no evidence so anyone could be right. view post

posted 13 Mar 2006, 13:03 by Rooster, Commoner

There already is "Super-Sorcery", and Kellhus has obtained it. Remember that the Third Phrase is a legend even to the lately long-lived newly immortal Nonmen. Basically, we can deduce that a person who can use the Third Phrase emerges - on average - once per n millennia. I'd be hard-pressed to believe that someone else can top that. His children, while guaranteed to become significant, likely won't surpass their father, who was a prodigy even among the Dûnyain. Now if we could only know where Shauriatis stands on the scale... view post


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