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Mekeritrig posted 23 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

It is after quite the weekend that I return to the board and find your post, Ulyaoth, and your support post of Mr. Dalamar's.

I started writing a reply to your above post friday, Ulyaoth, and, completely contrary to my character, I stopped midsentence and closed the window because I just couldn't continue writing. I'd like to express my complete aggravation at having to respond to a post that, instead of being written, is just a collection of small rebuttals to disagreeable points. Since I refuse to take your posts apart quote by quote in order to disprove your theories I am once again going to try a response without a repeat of friday.

Unfortunately, to begin this post I feel the need to respond to the allegations towards my character.

I think you need to understand a few things about myself. As I've reiterated several times in the past posts on this board, my aim, however impossible it may be, is to try and discern the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor through fact and intelligent reasoning.

Now, once again however impossible that may be, if you know another way to achieve my aim besides disproving implausible theories through the introduction of contrary evidence or by supporting plausible theories by providing evidence then, please, enlighten me. I am not trying to state I am right; merely trying to disprove a theory I in no way indulge due to lack of evidence or intelligent reasoning and offer an alternative. Of course I am trying to prove you wrong. I'm sorry if you take offense to the tone of my writing.

Furthermore, I do not believe that it's logical for a series or book to lead to a happy conclusion. You are discussing a series of books with a man, myself, who was entirely resigned to the misconception that the PoN was the story; until the conclusion of my second full round of reading. It's a major reason why I believe Cû'jara Cinmoi left no loose threads in the PoN itself just many possible futures. I loved the series even then, ignorant of it's future. At the time, I thought it was beautiful that Mr. Bakker could capture a moment of an existence without, per say, a beginning or end as there is none in life.

Though I entirely dislike the use of quotes as something to pick at, I may be forced to as I'll reiterate again the aggravation of having to reply to a person who writes so. I only mention this as I have to, for sake of sheer disbelief, quote you.

The "logic" with which I view the series in its progression is not on the basis of what would be more logical to the reader, or for the story, but what would be logical to the character . . . all of the decisions, story archs, "twists," and modes of progression in the entirety of the Prince of Nothing have completely coincided with established traits of the characters morales, feelings, past, and knowledge, as opposed to what would be more logical to us at that moment.

What posts are you responding to? I believe, quite correctly, that I have done absolutly nothing but support the same. Have I not stressed that in a world as complete and real as Cû'jara Cinmoi's that the characters actions become more their own and less the writer's initial plan and ideas.

I guess this leads into what will begin my actual response to you.

As well, I guess I cannot reiterate enough the aggravation of wanting to respond to this post. I'm sorry that I've angered you to the point that you can't write an entire articulate and intelligent post.

Anyhow, why are you so convinced that Achamian fears the Consult? I mean you've, again obviously, thoroughly read the series. Have you remained completely ignorant of the changes throughout the books? This is why I continuely refer to your arguments as ignorant. It's not that you are personally ignorant; that is to say unlearned. Just that you are continually repeating arguments with basis ignorant of fact. I'd, as well, like to stress at this point that when I say fact I mean precisely that. Something that has either been stated by Cû'jara Cinmoi or that can be found in the books.

I will concede that the Drusas Achamian that we've come to know throughout the PoN was a fearful man. I'll refer to the overwhelming anxiety we experience through Achamian when he's presented with proof auguring the apocalypse at the end of The Darkness That Comes Before. I might add that any person might be prone to that same fearfulness when presented with an apocalypse.

I am in complete awe when it comes to the diligence and meticulous ingenious of Mr. Bakker's writing. As I've said before, the small sliver of Cû'jara Cinmoi's world that he's allowed us to experience is more than enough to become engulfed in. However, even more inspiring to myself, is the fact that Mr. Bakker wrote the PoN series to serve as a revelent and indepth history for his true story; the Second Apocalypse.

To that end, the characters we've experienced throughout the First Holy War have been whittled and hewed by events in order to slowly fill the space Cû'jara Cinmoi has prepared for them. Hense why I am constantly refering to the end of TTT as it's the closest point of reference to the characters future selves.

In light of the above, at the end of TTT I don't believe Achamian fears the Consult as he once did. However, I'm starting to understand that Achamian's attitude towards the Consult is mute point. I believe that our difference of opinion lies once again in your ignorance of fact.

Fact: At the end of TTT, Achamian has renounced everything and everyone important to him except Seswatha.

If you'd like proof and references I can provide, however, as I believe you know them anyways I'll just continue on.

My proposition of Achamian journeying to Ishterebinth depends on the basis that he will utilize his time and energy bent solely towards Consult defeat.

In fact, just to quash your allegation of my speaking in absolutes, I've always maintained that my reasons and theories were based on Achamian's inclination. If he were inclined to go to Ishterebinth.

If Achamian is bent solely towards Consult defeat, which I believe he is in light of no more intelligent reasoning or contrary evidence, what better place, again I reiterate, for allies and power towards that end than Ishterebinth?

As well, you mistook my suggestion of Cil-Aujas. I only presented the idea of Achamian going there, not to learn from Nonmen, but as a place where he could be assured refuge within proximity to the Three Seas if my Ishterebinth speculations indeed prove false; which they very well could.

Interestingly enough, I think it more likely that the Consult will use Cil-Aujas as a base within the Three Seas than Achamian. Doubtful that Kellhus would have learnt of the Mansion's existence.

I know this is, I think, the fourth time I've said this but I cannot stand the way you've written this post. It makes it extremely - though no doubt you care not - aggravating to try and respond in my usual manner of writing.

I'm trying to find all references to Achamian so I can move on to some of your alternative rebuttals, however, it's proving difficult.

I understand that Achamian refers to fear of heresy and subsequent summary execution based on what he writes in his compendium. I also see the reasoning behind your argument against the Schools hunting Achamian in Kellhus's new world order, whether I disagree with it or not. However, I'll reiterate again my belief that the Three Seas is not a safe place for Achamian to be.

Following all Achamian's renunciations isn't it likely, that in years to come, all of Kellhus's subjects will know the stories surrounding Kellhus's ascension to power and perhaps, though I disbelieve the reality of it, prophecy? Furthermore, isn't it likely that despite whatever grand proclaimation Kellhus may make against Achamian's death that some bloodthirsty fanatic, even many bloodthirsty fanatics, knowing the facts of set stories would try and kill Achamian believing that they'd eliminated a blight against their beloved Warrior-Prophet?

The quote from the end scene of TTT goes as follows:

The Men of the Tusk stared at him dumbstruck, their outrage as bright as sparks in their eyes.

I interpreted the above quote and surrounding passage as amazement from Achamian that he isn't torn to pieces there and then.

I don't really know if I've caught all your references to Achamian, however, I feel my argument slowing down here so I'm going to just move on to tidbits of anything as I read 'em. Actually, though I hate to do this, it's the only quick way to respond to the rest of your post so I'm going to resort to quoting you.

Knowing of Nonmen and knowing something of their culture doesn't suddenly develop adoration or favoritism.

Quite true. On the flipside we know Achamian. He is a student of logic and sorcery. He definitely respects opposition towards the Consult. As well, he is a student of history and therefore, unlike the rest of humankind in Eärwa, knows that the Nonmen nations were old and vast long before the Breaking of the Gates. Furthermore, he knows the invaluable aid that Nonmen Siqu and Quya provided Men in the building of the Norsirai's own nations. In specific, the tutelage of the Gnosis. Once again I'll reiterate, I'll bet that Achamian could relate much better to Nonmen than he can to humankind, aside from the Mandate.

The quote you give does in no manner say that some Non-Men aren't sorcerers, it merely says that the techniques that they're attempting aren't solely utilizing sorcery

I wasn't trying to state that the Nonmen aren't sorcerers; likely the majority of them are practicing sorcerers. I was trying to, and did, state that all Nonmen aren't sorcerers. Which elminated any of your speculation on how the Consult would have to fashion another skin-spy anomoly in order to infiltrate Ishterebinth, as you tried stating here:

I'd like to point out that there's a high probability of some Skin-Spy variant in Ishterebinth as alluded to by Aurang in the Warrior-Prophet. A fact that moves me to curiosity . . . How else could Aurang have spies in a place presumably populated only by sorcery practicing Non-Men? The lack of the mark should be able to snuff out most spies in their presence...unless they actually did find a way to reproduce Skin Spies with souls or at least convincingly reproduce the mark of the Onta.

On the same line of thought, the spy in Ishterebinth is likely a Nonmen Erratic occupying a position of, at least, some power. It would be impossible to introduce a skin-spy into Ishterebinth due to the fact that all living Nonmen are likely known to each other. I mean, they are a relatively small population of species who've survived, in a fashion, a couple millennia together. I think a Nonman who just showed up in Ishterebinth one day would raise some highly damaging questions.

Whether he's amoral or not, and whether he lied before or not, I think it stands to reason that Kellhus is authentically a prophet. He did, afterall have a vision about Serwe's death and the events that transpired towards the end 200-300 pages before it actually occurred.

Wrong. As The Warrior-Prophet is all about Kellhus's trial in the domination of Holy War, the novel in which he experiences the most difficulties in dominating his circumstances, as Dûnyain he walks a very thin line; in his own words:

Some destinations couldn't be grasped in advance. Some paths had to be walked to be known. Risked.

The "vision" your speaking of is no vision at all. Kellhus is merely meditating on the overwhelming circumstances presented to him; the corresponding revelation, I guess I have to say I believe, was just the nearly impossible path he sets for himself knowing that the possibility of success outweighed and would subsequently eliminate any possible negatives.

I'll refer to our experience through Cnaiür's eyes near the finale of The Warrior-Prophet. After Kellhus's cryptic words on the ruined heights of Citadel, Cnaiür finds himself understanding the Dûnyain's plan.

Everything, Cnaiür realized had transpired according to the Dûnyain's mad gambit . . . knowing that if he survived... The secret of battle!

The secret of battle being, as we learn at the battle of Anwurat under the Scylvendi's tutelage of war, conviction. As Achamian describes to Nautzera at the beginning of TTT:

After he was freed, even the most embittered of the Orthodox fell to their knees before him . . . He came upon them like a fever after that. Suddenly the Holy War found itself unified as never before . . . And then they marched. Such a sight, Nautzera! As great and terrible as anything in our Dreams. Starved. Sick. They shambled from the gates - dead men moved to war . . . The impossible. They won the field. They couldn't be stopped!

Just reading through the rest of your post here, though there are things I'd like to respond to, there's nothing that incites me enough to continue writing right now. I hope anyone reading enjoyed this post though I'm not entirely happy with it. As I try to aspire to intriguing writing which flows and follows a somewhat linear movement of thought, I can't really condone what I've written here.

As well, Ulyaoth, despite whatever attitude you think I adopt in my writing or towards you, I'd like you to know at least that I enjoy writing opposite someone as engaged as yourself. view post


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