Is Kellus insane or not

[Landrew]

I had decided that Moenghus was wrong in concluding that Kellus was insane and that Kellus was the chosen Anasurimbor who would save the world. Several reasons: his 'haloed' hands, which everyone seemed to see, his ability to survive the circumfixion (not only survive but stand strong), the fact that he had seen farther than the Dunyain and become more human in a sense (weeping for Serwe), the prophecy of the Anasurimbor who would return, that he was able to learn the Gnosis (requiring him to somehow overcome Seswatha - I don't buy the possibility that simply hypnotizing Akka is enough to get around Seswatha). Yet the 'what has come before' section of JE says as a fact that Kellus went mad - Moenghus' assessment was correct. What do you think? Is Scott messing with us or is Kellus crazy (in the sense of delusional)?

[Curethan]

I think that he may be crazy as all 'mere men' are crazy - only in comparison to Dunyain. By this I mean that he now allows things other than logic, nessecity and expedience to inform his descisions, at least from Moenghus' perspective.

I am quite sure that I am the sanest guy I know, everyone else thinks I'm nuts.

[Cripdamind]

i'm pretty sure that moenghus was right in concluding that kellhus is a nutter. the narration of the entire series is colored by the subjective opinions and judgments of the characters. which to me, means that you can't take anything the characters believe as 100% fact. but the 'what has come before' section of each book seems to be the thing we can use to gauge the 'authenticity' of each narrations beliefs. and TJE's what has come before section clearly states that kellhus has gone mad. however, if these parts of the books are equally subjective in their analysis as the rest of the narration, then i'd recant my statement and probably agree with curethan that kellhus is crazy because he simply possesses goals that don't revolve around becoming the prime mover or whatever it was the dunyain sought sequestering themselves in ishual. which i would find as odd, because moenghus truly seemed to possess the same goal as kellhus currently does--saving the people of earwa from the machinations of the consult.

[Will]

I think the point that Kellhus made to Moenghus at the end of TTT was that eventually logic and reason would see anyone switch sides and work with the Consult. Thus, no Dunyain can be trusted (by foes of the Consult) as ultimately reason will cause them to betray.

I think the question of Kellhus's sanity or lack thereof, however, is merely one piece of a larger question. To wit, what does Kellhus strive towards, ultimately? I take it as read that he's sane in the sense that he takes pragmatic steps to accomplish his ends. What those ends are, however, will ultimately determine whether we regard him as sane or insane.

[Curethan]

I guess a dunyain of Moenghus' level has as their motivation the need to preserve the self and dominate circumstance.

This could well be the reason that sorcery is banned from Ishual. Damnation is something that even a sorcery-using dunyain cannot avoid. (Unless you join the consult)

[Mithfânion]

WIll has the right of it I think, insofar as one can be right, one can only theorize for now.

Kellhus clearly has had loads of time to ponder. That's an eternity to a mind such as his. I think his ultimate goal is exactly as he says it is, the defeat of the Consult, prevention of the Sec. Apocalypse. But he may have more goals we don't know about.

I don't think he's mad. But then I read the What ccame before secition and did read that part about him going mad. He doesn't come across mad in the slightest to me, rather extremely rational and in control. I like Will's explanation for what "he went mad" actually means.

[Landrew]

I'm not so sure that merely what the 'ends' are has much to say about whether he is sane. For example, his ends may be preservation of humanity by defeating the consult. So one would conclude (based on Will's reasoning) that he is sane. But if concurrently he believes that he is both divine and divinely appointed to save the world, when he is not (making an assumption here), then he is probably insane at least to a degree, regardless of his ends, regardless of his steps towards those ends. For example, if he believes he can see haloes around his hands and takes that as proof of divinity when in fact they aren't there, he is at least somewhat insane regardless of whether his plan is to save the world.

[Mochi]

If concurrently he believes that he is both divine and divinely appointed to save the world, when he is not (making an assumption here), then he is probably insane at least to a degree

That's my take on it, also. It has been a while since I read TTT, but I recall getting the impression that Kellus came to belive in his own divinity, which previously he had seen as false. That belief is what I think of as his madness. We can gather from Mimara seeing sorcery as damned that Kellhus is a false prophet on some level, so his deviation from knowing truth, which I would think he ought to pride as part of the Logos, is a sort of madness.

the 'what has come before' section of each book seems to be the thing we can use to gauge the 'authenticity' of each narrations beliefs.

While it does present itself that way, I take it to be of a part with the other errata, such as the map, glossary, and Achamian's chart from the first book: glimpses of Eärwa that give insight, but don't neccessarily represent "truth". For example, the glossary in TJE defines Moënghus as the son of Kellhus and Serwë, when we know that he is truly the son of Cnaiür and Serwë; the glossary cannot be trusted as fact, so I won't presume to take the "What has come before" section as fact, rather as a reminder of what seems to have happened.

[Curethan]

If concurrently he believes that he is both divine and divinely appointed to save the world, when he is not (making an assumption here), then he is probably insane at least to a degree

That's my take on it, also. It has been a while since I read TTT, but I recall getting the impression that Kellus came to belive in his own divinity, which previously he had seen as false. That belief is what I think of as his madness. We can gather from Mimara seeing sorcery as damned that Kellhus is a false prophet on some level, so his deviation from knowing truth, which I would think he ought to pride as part of the Logos, is a sort of madness.

Yeh, he could see his hand halos. Which only believers see.

the 'what has come before' section of each book seems to be the thing we can use to gauge the 'authenticity' of each narrations beliefs.

While it does present itself that way, I take it to be of a part with the other errata, such as the map, glossary, and Achamian's chart from the first book: glimpses of Eärwa that give insight, but don't neccessarily represent "truth". For example, the glossary in TJE defines Moënghus as the son of Kellhus and Serwë, when we know that he is truly the son of Cnaiür and Serwë; the glossary cannot be trusted as fact, so I won't presume to take the "What has come before" section as fact, rather as a reminder of what seems to have happened.

Well, Moenghus is certainly more Kellhus' son than Cnaiur's in a world where reality is anchored via perception. The truth is only a lie made real in Earwa.
Alternatively, perhaps we can take the unspoken "adopted" as understood - the true sitution is heavily implied during TJE and, for some reason, the "what has come before" bit is appended to the main narrative - so new readers may enjoy guessing at his heritage if they read this series first.
If one can't trust even the prequel sysnopsis from the author we are not likely to ever make confident predictions, espescially if the author is being deliberatly ambiguous. Hmmmmmmmm.... I agree with you!

[avatar_of_existence]

This begs the question: is it insane to 'shut the world off from the outside' if you are damned, or is it insane not to? Kellhus seems to have chosen to save mankind over his own soul, but why? Is it love? Is that what his father meant when he tells Kellhus that he's been broken by the wilderness? Isn't Kellhus literally hearing the voice of god in his head? Perhaps going beyond the logos, beyond the thousandfold thought, can only result in insanity. What I don't get is his motivation, I can't see exactly what lead him to decide to save the world (other than belief that he is the prophet). . .and then again maybe he is really trying to destroy it, you can never tell with that guy.

More importantly the Celmomian prophecy states that an Anasaurimbor will return at the end of the world. That doesn't seem to be the case with Earwa as the consult hasn't been seen in forever and there is relative peace. Again, maybe Kellhus is really leading a giant sacrifice to the Incu-Holoinas to seal the world from the outside.

[Madness]

I can't help but poke in here and throw down some thoughts. Specifically to Will's question though I think some of my points will bend towards Thorsten's explanation of Bakker's reality. If I have time one day, I think I may come back and rebuttal Thorsten.

Anyhow, what are Kellhus' goals? I think the debate here is missing some key thought evolution.

Firstly, I believe first and foremost that Kellhus remains Dunyain. I often wished that he would become more human and use his actions for good but my hope from Bakker is that the broken spiteful Wizard gets to save the day.

What can we assume from this? Well, I think Thorsten and Bakker have laid out some spectacular ground work for a war over the World Soul or the God, etc, between the Consult and divided humanity. Perhaps, however, in between humanity and reality's Omega Point there lies the realms of individual's with possessing power like Kellhus', entities who exact measures of belief from the World, i.e. the Gods. I think this might imply some things about the White-Luck Warrior, a being who perceived reality bends to, based on the belief Yatwer holds. So then, plainly spoke, I think Kellhus' seeks to understand the Tekne, his last real remaining unknown in Earwa and become a God. This would be in line with the epic prose and Dunyain mechanisms.

Consequently, this fits into some of my other theories that the Judging Eye has raised for me culminating the Prince of Nothing. Though, I fully believe that Bakker will surprise me, I just like guessing. Trying to out think an author who inspired me most.

I believe Achamian will somehow become Seswatha during the events of the First Apocalypse. Through his dreams or perhaps even Kellhus' hypnotism Achamian will make this jump. I think this is most alluded to in Achamian's Choice to be or not to be Seswatha above Sauglish (I think it's Sauglish? He keeps asking This isn't how it happens, where is Seswatha?, as well as comments on the fact that Seswatha was mysteriously absent in his perspective) and little Nau-Cayuti's question, who is Mimira? I think the events in the Judging Eye culminate in Kellhus betraying the Great Ordeal after he joins the Consult and becomes the No-God in the First Apocalypse.

And then presto, third trilogy or duology, what have you, is the FIRST APOCALYPSE! A nice bow-tied time-paradox lol.

[coobek]

... I think Kellhus' seeks to understand the Tekne, his last real remaining unknown in Earwa and become a God. This would be in line with the epic prose and Dunyain mechanisms...

.... I think the events in the Judging Eye culminate in Kellhus betraying the Great Ordeal after he joins the Consult and becomes the No-God in the First Apocalypse.

And then presto, third trilogy or duology, what have you, is the FIRST APOCALYPSE! A nice bow-tied time-paradox lol.

I also have a thought of Tekne as a goal for Kelhus, since this is the only unknown.



But the last idea is shocking and briliant as well. Would never thought of such a twist. Great idea.

[Jerako]

The haloes are proof that he's delusional, not that he is in fact a prophet. Recall when Serwe was getting raped by the skin-spy posing as Kellhus. She still saw the haloed hands.

This series is largely based on the subjectivity of mass opinions though. The question of whether Kellhus is in fact insane, or not, is determined largely by mass belief. Not only in that insanity is largely defined as a deviation from the "normal" state of mind, but that in this series, belief, especially mass belief, truly affects reality.