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Twayleph Auditor | joined 03 July 2004 | 114 posts

The Title posted 03 July 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Title by Twayleph, Auditor

Hey everyone <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Like other people I voted for the Thousandfold Thought, I think it really sounds mysterious, original and profound, like The Prince of Nothing is.

I just finished The Warrior Prophet today and I can't wait for TTT... this series is some incredible work Scott, I can't thank you enough for bringing these books to our shelves! view post

Mindless Amusement: Type your Username with your elbows posted 04 October 2004 in Off-Topic DiscussionMindless Amusement: Type your Username with your elbows by Twayleph, Auditor


Ha...thought it would be worse <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post

Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 15 October 2004 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Twayleph, Auditor

I noticed there were a lot of speculation about the identity of little-known characters such as Moënghus, Mallahet and Maithanet. Although both the "Moënghus = Mallahet = Maithanet" theory and the "Mainthanet belonging to the Consult" theory, were both very well-developped and plausible, I have a different explanation.

We know very little about Maithanet, save that he is a lone man that, for some reason, travelled all the way from Nilnamesh and then set out to conquer the Thousand Temples like a storm, and then declared a Holy War to reconquer Shimeh. The big question is, why declare this Holy War?

Maybe Maithanet is simply a Consult tool used to destroy the Cishaurim. But there are hints that in TWP that make it very hard to believe Maithanet is entirely evil (one being the part where he asks Proyas to aid Achamian).

I'd like to draw a parallel to Cnaiür here; before he crossed the path of Moënghus, he was simply the son of a chieftain. But after his disastrous encounter with Moënghus, he was utterly transformed into the murderous and deranged warrior we know.

What if something similar happened to Maithanet? Moënghus, for some reason, crosses Nilnamesh and decides to use a young Inirith adept, Maithanet, for his own purpose. After Moënghus leaves, Maithanet, like Cnaiür, sees past the Dûnyain deception and sets out to avenge himself. He quickly realizes, however, that Moënghus is heavily defended by the heaten Fanim.

Yet Maithanet has his own strenght. Like Cnaiür, he grows powerful because of hatred of Moënghus; only instead of gaining furious strenght and talent in combat, he affinates his skill at inspiring devotion and obedience in other men (probably inspired by the Dûnyain manipulation techniques displayed by Moënghus).

So what better way for him to avenge himself than by paying a visit to his Inirith brothers, using his newfound talent to become Shriah and asking them to destroy the heathen in Shimeh (and Moënghus with them)?

That doesn't rule out the possibility of a Consult link; the Consult might have proven a great ally for Maithanet because of their common will to see Shimeh stormed. But I think there's more to Maithanet than merely a Consult tool (or even skin-spy).

So there it is; sorry for the discouragingly long post and possible poor english. I'd very much like to hear for your comments, objections, assents... view post

Origin of Morality posted 17 October 2004 in Philosophy DiscussionOrigin of Morality by Twayleph, Auditor

I find your explanation on the origin of morality very impressive; in some way it relates to my own beliefs. But there are some parts of your argument that I can't seem to understand clearly.

Per example, you state that morality is based on ungrounded beliefs and that these delusions are what allowed us to create a society of mutual trust. But how can you determine that it was these beliefs that allowed the creation of society, that ungrounded trust still keeps us together?

You said the belief that, per example, our neighbours and society are trustworthy and won't trash our home when our back is turned, is what allows us to leave home. But reason also tells us we should leave home; otherwise we won't get to work, get money, get food, etc. Besides, the probability that a crime actually occurs when we're gone is very low. So how can you say it is not necessity and reason, instead of ungrounded beliefs, that guide our society?

By the way, I'm not used to philosophical arguing, so my post may not make much sense, but I find this forum's philosophy section fascinating so here I try to join in! view post

French Edition of TDTCB posted 14 January 2005 in Author Q &amp; AFrench Edition of TDTCB by Twayleph, Auditor

Hi Scott, first I'd like to say how much I appreciate your Prince of Nothing series. The Darkness that Comes Before and The Warrior-Prophet both "clicked" for me in a way that I could never have imagined ; these are arguably the novels that I found the most captivating because of the characters, the world, the intricate storyline and the philosophical elements. I can't wait for the rest of the series ; keep up the good work and please don't mess up TTT, because I've already pre-ordered it <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

My question concerns the French edition ; I've waited for it for a while because I was really looking forward to see what the translators would do to TDTCB (the title in particular is very hard to translate). Do you know when this edition will be available in USA or Canada ? I would've ordered it from France, but the overseas shipping is very costy. view post

And now for something totally idiotic - BK v McDonalds posted 14 January 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionAnd now for something totally idiotic - BK v McDonalds by Twayleph, Auditor

I think you're talking about "poutine". I don't really like it but it is somewhat popular here. view post

First French Review - Help Wanted posted 29 January 2005 in Interviews and ReviewsFirst French Review - Help Wanted by Twayleph, Auditor

Well I live in Quebec and fluently speak French (or at least our version of French) and I'm not so bad at English either, so I can give it a shot. I'm not used to translation work and it won't be perfect - but at least I'm positive it'll be better than Google <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post

First French Review - Help Wanted posted 29 January 2005 in Interviews and ReviewsFirst French Review - Help Wanted by Twayleph, Auditor

I've done a sentence-per-sentence translation but it's as long and complicated as the original text, so I thought instead I'd give the essential idea of each paragraph and a translation of the last.

First paragraph : a summary of the story, centered around Achamian and referring to some sort of quest for redemption.

"Une nouvelle carte des Archétypes" : A praise to Scott's use of biblical Archetypes and his use of language to define the world, compares Scott to other great authors such as Steven Erikson, Martin, Hobb...

"La magie et les rapports humains" : A praise to the way sorcery is dealt with in TDTCB ; both defining the society's structure and restricted by this same structure, also compliments the dialogues as very gripping and revealing.

"Bakker l'historien" : A reference to the veracity added by the Nietzchean philosophy background and to the "antinomical" character of Khellus and Cnaiur. Also gives a reflection on Khellus as standing "in a place between light and dark, defined by his own kaleidoscopic point of view".

"The imports

Bakker’s first novel is a remarkable, thrilling and gripping work, thanks to his powerful historical view of [Eärwa]. He re-invented the process of writing the Holy Words and swept aside the impediments of trying to convice God must exist and the old conflicts of nature and culture, to restore the fundamental process of a Will that can create history, and plan a secret plot that courses through our collective subconscious (a common virtue of this new genre of Fantasy) so that, by the process of reviving biblical archetypes, a new story could rise with vivid characters that live outside the bounds of the storyline. We are left breath-taken by the beauty of this divine will, intricate in the beauty of the world and subtle enough not to transform this book into a mere copy of the Bible. The apocalyptic story, brilliantly coreographed by Bakker, is at long last a reminder of the fantasy writer’s charge and, moreover, of the reader’s work to grasp the hidden meanings of this genre. It depicts the modern tendancy of trying not to explain, but to self-explain, the meaning of the world. It is a subtle shift from the « outside » to the « inside », this withdrawal into ourselves which is necessary to witness a new world as would a child, and to transform the process of reading into a miracle. Bakker reminds us that our society cut itself off from the divine, only to embrace it again in much simpler ways, such as the scribbling of a plume or the convulsive slapping on a keyboard – a new prayer which is to self-explain a world amongst so many others, to deal with the unknown in a much more profound and sincere way. Perhaps this way is very much preferable to an absolute belief in a text written and spoken by men. This is what seperates a writer, creater of worlds, from a Rael who really believes what he writes – it is the difference between a pure work of imagination and reflections, and an absolutely absurd and totalitarian ideology. We witness here a work of Fantasy and a work on Fantasy, an inspiring work and a successful novel remarkably worthy of this genre."

So, all in all, it's a very complimentary (if long-winded) review, mostly centered around the use of biblical Archetypes.

Edit : At first I had only included the translation of the last paragraph but then I figured you may not want to depend on a Google translation for the rest of the text ! view post

Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 05 February 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Twayleph, Auditor

As a reply to RevCasy's question : Why would Maithanet help Achamian?
Yes, that's the big question...My theory does provide an answer: whereas the Holy War serves as a means to destroy the political and military power of Moenghus, by conquering Fanim lands and destroying the army that protects Shimeh, there is still the problem of taking care of Moenghus himself. There are the Chorae bowmen, but it's likely many of them will be destroyed during the War, and anyway as we've seen in TWP, a cunning and powerful sorcerer can find ways to deal with Chorae's. And Moenghus is a VERY cunning and VERY powerful sorcerer. As far as Maithanet knows (supposing he really doesn't know about Khellus), Achamian, the most powerful sorcerer within the Holy War, is the only man with a real shot at Moenghus. This leaves the question of how he intends to convince Achamian to kill his friend's father, I'll admit.

Concerning a conspiracy between Moenghus and Maithaneth or a manipulation of the latter by the former : it does make a lot of sense that the Holy War serves as a ground for Khellus's rebirth as a prophet, though this also leaves the question of why Moenghus would want this. We know very little about the Dûnyain's profound motives, and about nothing about an exiled Dûnyain's motives ; why should he care about the Consult ? If anything, his actions have alerted the Consult about the Dûnyain and threaten their isolation, even their very survival. And if the goal is to fight the Consult, then a war bent of destroying the Cishaurim (the Consult's enemy) looks like a strange way to achieve that goal. view post

On Inrithism posted 12 March 2005 in Author Q &amp; AOn Inrithism by Twayleph, Auditor

First of all, I'm begging everyone not to flame me if I've misinterpreted the religion cited here ; to my shame, I know very little about this subject. However for some reason I'm interested to know more about Inrithism (probably because I'm appealed by all that bears the seal of Earwa !).

I was wondering what the principal tenets of Inrithism were ; i.e. its core values. Par example, as I understand it, one of the core values of Christianism is the sense of self-sacrifice. We've been given bits of information on the polytheistic nature of Inirithism and citations from the Tusk, as well as things it opposes (prostitution, sorcery...) and it's pretty clear to me that its interpretation in the Three Seas serves as a way to submit lower castes to the dominant class ; yet I still don't feel like I "get" it. What values does it promote ? How many saints or prophets does it glorify, and are they for real or are they just inventions ? Is its ruler (Shriah) held to be divine, to be of divine inspiration or just a man with more sense than the others ?

I'd be interested to ask the same questions about Fanimry as well, but I'm afraid it would touch a red zone (the Cishaurim) and in any case, I feel we'll know more about the Fanim in TTT. Hopefully <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post

On Inrithism posted 15 March 2005 in Author Q &amp; AOn Inrithism by Twayleph, Auditor

Thanks for these answers, it answered my question as much as I expected it would <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> With each new thread it seems the TTT appendix will be something to look forward to ! view post

Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 16 March 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Twayleph, Auditor

First of all Brady, I have to say it's a very good explanation indeed, simple and realistic. However I still have trouble believing that Moënghus would willingly trigger a war in which the Cishaurim would be slaughtered. If he's an enemy of the Consult, why would he want to see destroyed (or at least bleeded) an enemy of his enemy ?

Speaking of the Cishaurim : I wonder, has anyone made a theory on why the Consult wants to destroy the Cishaurim so badly ? Considering that, before Khellus, they weren't aware the Anasûrimbor lineage had survived, they couldn't possibly have known all about Moënghus ; at most, they knew him under wathever identity he's assumed in Earwa.

Do you think their manipulation of the Holy War is all about killing Moënghus, or the fact that the Consult can't see them as the Few - or maybe a deeper effect of Psukhe ? view post

livin n dyin in TTT posted 23 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Twayleph, Auditor

Are we sure about that, Grantaire? I'd always wondered what happened to Iyokus after Achamian destroyed the Ciphrang. I thought the fate of Iyokus had been left to be told in TTT; if you've found a passage which tells us with certainty that Iyokus is indeed dead, could you please quote it? view post

Chorae bowmen posted 02 May 2005 in Author Q &amp; AChorae bowmen by Twayleph, Auditor

I believe that if human nations employ Chorae archers, it's because they have no other choice. Remember what happened to the battle of Kiyuth, where a large Scylvendi horde was so very easily destroyed - all because they didn't have Chorae archers at the ready to fight the Imperial Saik - or the battle at the Fords from Achamian's Dreams.

Sorcerers have an obscene power that you simply can't ignore, leaving you with only two choices: either out-power the enemy sorcerers with your own sorcerers or employ Chorae. Sorcerers are a very valuable resource (remember Eleazaras' dismay at losing even two sorcerers!), probably just as valuable as the Chorae. As for handing Chorae to melee units (such as the Inrithi knights), it's not very effective since the Chorae must touch the sorcerer to have any effect, and armies will tend to protect their sorcerers very closely from Chorae-bearing units.

All this said, I agree that employing Chorae archers is very risky and that they would be employed only in the rarest of circumstances. In battles where they aren't needed, I imagine they would either be kept as a reserve or employ mundane arrows. Still, Chorae are there to be used, and Chorae archers seem to a good way to do so. view post

Chorae bowmen posted 03 May 2005 in Author Q &amp; AChorae bowmen by Twayleph, Auditor

Quote from M.Bakker on another topic:

"Chorae bowmen from different nations adopt different strategies, but in each case, what they fire is the Chorae itself fixed to the shaft or bolt. Physical contact with a Chorae grants an individual and their immediate effects immunity - nothing else."

Chorae are fired by the Chorae archers and, unless retrieved after the battle, will be lost. view post

About Nonmen posted 17 May 2005 in Author Q &amp; AAbout Nonmen by Twayleph, Auditor

From what I've seen, the fact that the Nonmen warred against the Inchoroi is precisely the reason why some of them became the bad guys. Scott has hinted that somehow, the Cuno-Inchoroi wars have broken the Nonmen as a people - though how exactly is unknown. Their minds are a waste now, and some of them have taken to expericiencing traumas only because they're easier to remember. Well, if you want to suffer senseless pain, I guess the Inchoroi will welcome you with open arms! view post

The Logos/Dunyain posted 22 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Logos/Dunyain by Twayleph, Auditor

I would disagree with that last point; in my opinion, the very essence of traditional sorcery, as we know it in Fantasy, is that it's unnatural. It wouldn't be magic if it worked inside the laws and boundaries of the world; when a sorcerer just says a word and the person in front of him bursts into flames, I don't think it's a simple question of understanding the world. Sure, there are laws ruling sorcery, but they're not the ones governing this world and that's why to non-sorcerers it appears wondrous and incomprehensible.

In PON, when one of the Few witnesses sorcery, he is at once able to recognize it because it is not of this world but rather of the force that created this world (the God?). As I see it, common people are like cartoon characters living in their little 2D world and forced to follow its rules - and the Few are the ones able to take the cartoonist's pencil and draw a big "X" over those they don't like. view post

The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 31 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Twayleph, Auditor

I'd like to know where you got that quote, White Lord. I've re-read TdTCB so many times I've lost count but I don't recall ever seeing this. Is there a special edition containing more information than the Canadian edition, or did I just over-look it? view post

The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 31 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Twayleph, Auditor

Ah, I finally found it in some little corner of page 554!

She stood, she realized, at the very heart of the Holy War, fiery with passion, promise, and sacred purpose. These men were more than human, they were Kahiht, World Souls, locked in the great wheel of great events.

I can't believe you could quote that out of memory...Amazing how many subtle little facts like this you can overlook if you're not as incredibly immersed in the world as you, White Lord <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I'll certainly be interested in looking for the definition and origin of that little term in the TTT appendice. view post

Scylvendi magi? posted 11 June 2005 in Author Q &amp; AScylvendi magi? by Twayleph, Auditor

Hello Scott, I was just re-reading about the battle of Kiyuth when I wondered, do Scylvendi have their own sorcerers ? Cnaiür refers to sorcery as unholy (as he does many outlander customs, be they Inirithi or Fanim). Is this opinion of sorcery generalized among the Scylvendi and they just kept exterminating the Few among them until they were all gone ? If so, would you care to elaborate why they hold sorcery to be unholy ? After all, I highly doubt they'd quote the Tusk to answer that question!

Or maybe they do have their own magic ? At the beginning of the novel, Leweth refers to "witches, whose urgings could harness the wild agencies in earth, animal and tree" ; could he be referring to the Scylvendi memorialists and the Scylvendi veneration of the Steppe ?

In any case, thanks for taking the time to answer. I can't stress how much curiosity and interest I have in this crazy, crazy world you've created <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post

Favourite Sorcerous School? posted 15 June 2005 in Author Q &amp; AFavourite Sorcerous School? by Twayleph, Auditor

I think Scott has done an amazing job describing sorcery and Schools and, apart from the Mysunsai - mercenaries, which is realistic but somewhow a little base for sorcerers imo - and the Imperial Saik -lapdogs of the Emperor - I find them all fascinating in their own way.

Now to answer the question, it's a hard choice between the Mandate, whose Gnosis has been so brilliantly described that I'm beginning feel the same envy as Eleäzaras did, and the Cishaurim, who I think wield the closest thing we've seen to holy magic so far (never mind the oxymoron). In the end, however, how could I not take the philosophers' side, as Achaminan describes them? <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> view post

A stupid question posted 15 June 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtA stupid question by Twayleph, Auditor

Yes, TTT is the last book of the Prince of Nothing Series. It is not the last we'll hear of Eärwa, however, since Scott has planned to write two more series of book, one called The Aspect-Emperor and another one whose title Scott is reluctant to reveal for spoiler reasons. I think we'll have to wait a little more than a year for those, though <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post

Nonmen who and what are they? posted 17 June 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by Twayleph, Auditor

We've actually seen three conceptions of the sky (or space) so far.

The Scylvendi belief, expressed by Cnaiür, is that there is some sort of blanket recovering the world, and that the stars are in fact holes in this surface which let in the light of the outside. This is, to them, the proof that the world is not as it appears (everything is false save the People)

The common Inirithi belief, expressed by Esmenet, is that the Sun revolved around the Earth and the stars revolve around the Nail of Heaven.

The conception of the Inchoroi and Nonmen, explained by Achamian, is similar to our own beliefs. The world we know is a planet lost in an infinitely large, empty universe and the stars are faraway suns. The following citation confirms that the Inchoroi are indeed aliens :

Supposedly that's what the Inchoroi told [the Nonmen]. That they sailed here from stars that were suns.

Hopefully that'll clear things up <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post

Consult and Empire posted 21 June 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtConsult and Empire by Twayleph, Auditor

Re-reading TDTCB and TWP, a passage where Achamian draws an ink line between "Consult" and "Empire" on his map, had me wondering just what the nature of that link was. Obviously Skeaös tried to manipulate the Emperor to serve the goals of the Consult, but reviewing the events I came to believe that the Emperor's plan was diametrically opposite to the objectives of the Conclave. I'll review each step of the plan :

1) The Battle of Kiyuth : the Scylvendi were allies of the No-God at the First Apocalypse and have supposedly spent the last few thousand years avenging his death - and now that they will be most needed, they are obliterated ! Pretty bad timing for the Consult, don't you think ?

2) The destruction of the Vulgar Holy War ; even though they were described as an impediment, wouldn't the Consult freak out when half of the army supposed to kill the Cishaurim was destroyed so quickly ?

3) The pact between the Emperor and the heathen ; the Emperor vowed to spare Shimeh - and thus the Cishaurim, which are for all we know the Consult's deadliest enemies.

All in all, it seems the Emperor's plan was absolutely contrary to the objectives of the Consult, so why in the world would they have helped him devise it ? It says in the book that Skeaös tried to talk him out of it, so maybe they did try to prevent this plan from happening. So was this the extent of the Consult's influence on the Empire : a failed attempt to make the Emperor change his mind ? It wouldn't make much sense - or am I missing something here ?

This is a lot of rambling, and for all I know, I'm just very slow and everyone understood that matter the first time around <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> In any case, any commentary or insight would be welcome! view post

A little help... posted 21 June 2005 in The Warrior ProphetA little help... by Twayleph, Auditor

I'd like to help you Deerow, but I don't think the pages on the edition I have correspond with yours. The first (and only) paragraph of page 186 of my Canadian edition reads :

Song and myriad glittering torches greeted Ikurei Xerius III as he passed through curtains of wispy linen and into the palatial courtyard. Only in light must the Emperor be seen. There was a rustle of fabric as the throngs fell to their knees and pressed their powdered faces against the lawns. Only the tall Eothic Guardsmen remained standing. With child-slaves holding the hem of his gowns, Xerius walked among the prostrated forms and savoured, as he always did, this loneliness. Thisgodlike loneliness.

No reference to an old man whatsoever. Could you indicate what chapter that blotch is located in and where approximatively to look (beginning, halfway...) ? view post

A little help... posted 21 June 2005 in The Warrior ProphetA little help... by Twayleph, Auditor

No problem, I can understand having an obsession with the details. I myself often leave the subtitles when I watch a DVD just in case I'd miss a word <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

I think I found the passage :

After completing the purificatory rites, Gotian and Sarcellus withdrew. Stiff in their ornamental hauberks, the Gilgallic Priests then rose to declare the Battle-Celebrant, whom dread War had chosen as his vessel of the field five days previous. The masses fell silent in anticipation. The selection of the Battle-Celebrant, Xinemus had complained to Khellus earlier, was the object of innumerable wagers, as though it were a lottery rather than a divine determination. An older man, his square-cut beard as white (...)

I hope that's what you were looking for, and hurry up to finish reading TWP already <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post

Snowflake Method posted 14 August 2005 in Writing TipsSnowflake Method by Twayleph, Auditor

I've check that out briefly, and it looks very interesting. The "snowflake method" actually looks like a clearer, more organized version of the process I've used myself, and there are good ideas in there. Thanks for providing the link <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post

Betraying the Gnosis posted 30 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ABetraying the Gnosis by Twayleph, Auditor

No, this isn't about Achamian teaching Khellus, although I'm looking forward to see how that goes <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I'm actually interested in knowing how many Mandati have betrayed their School and to what extent. Somewhere in TWP, Achamian mentions that no sorcerer of rank ever betrayed the Gnosis, but what about apprentices?

Inrau, at least, has defected and Achamian mentioned that if he'd betrayed what little he knew of the Gnosis, rival schools (the Scarlet Spires first, I'd assume) would eventually be able to crack the secret. So was Inrau the only defection in milleniae? I find that hard to believe, since only sorcerers-of-rank touch Seswathat's Heart and the Scarlet Spires must have invested immense resources throughout the centuries to crack this secret. Have other apprentices ever left the Mandate and, if so, did any one of them live long enough to give over a few secrets to the other Schools?

The matter of what happens when a Mandati betrays his School will probably breached in TTT, not to mention the Consult agent mentioned in TDTCB, so I'd understand it I got a "read-and-find-out"...still, any questions you could answer would be appreciated! view post

Betraying the Gnosis posted 31 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ABetraying the Gnosis by Twayleph, Auditor

Good point on Inrau; he is indeed a special case and I don't think he would've gotten very far without Achamian's help and the Quorum's wilful inaction. But I wasn't implying that Inrau was a common case.

Surely with an entire nation at their feet and centuries of greed and envy, the Scarlet Spires could've found a way to get hold of a few apprentices? Yes, traitors would be ruthlessly hunted by the Mandati but if the apprentice could be brought to the Scarlet Spires's headquarters he would be safe there - Achamian himself mentioned that even the Mandate could never hope to infiltrate the innermost sanctums of the Scarlet Spires, and a head-on war against High Ainon would be suicidal. Have there never been traitors that survived long enough to step on a boat out of Nron, and if so why wasn't the secret of the Gnosis exposed after all this time? view post

Betraying the Gnosis posted 02 September 2005 in Author Q &amp; ABetraying the Gnosis by Twayleph, Auditor

Alright, I see your point WL. Though I still find it amazing that the Mandate could hide for centuries a secret everyone knows about and that very powerful people want desperatly - I guess it all comes down to the Quorum's determination. If they could find it in themselves to let young apprentices grow up barricaded in such a heartless place as Atyersus behind dozens of series of Wards, then escape becomes nearly impossible - unless, of course, you can find a kind teacher who'll disable all the traps for you.

As for the query you posed (I'll start with how they could preserve it during the time of the Apocalypse), I'd guess the arrogance and pride of the Norsirai had a lot to do with it; Achamian told us that even after the Apocalypse was well under way and that their greatest nations were falling, they still thought that the High North was going to win, somehow. They may have thought that their uniquely powerful sorcery would help them keep the edge over the South no matter what devastation the North had suffered during the Apocalypse. Seswatha, at least, might not have been so blind, but we could he do? Travel half the world to go South and find potential apprentices, then proceed to teach them over the next few months or years - not every student is Khellus <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> - while his home was being ripped apart? Furthermore, even if his School did manage to convert a few sorcerers to the Gnosis, I'd expect they would be required fight the Apocalypse, not to go back home and spread the word.

Concerning how the High North could preserve the secret of the Gnosis from the rest of the world for centuries, all I can do is guess that the Anagogic Schools of the South, at that time, were too weak at that time to even rival the Gnostic Schools or be able to steal their secrets. I'm interested to hear your theories on the subject.[/i] view post


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