Three Seas Forum

the archives

dusted off in read-only

  •  

kalbear Candidate | joined 30 May 2006 | 16 posts


ASOIAF board names posted 30 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionASOIAF board names by kalbear, Candidate

Hi. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

It feels weird to be posting on a fantasy board and have posts == 2 by my name. Better go fix that. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by kalbear, Candidate

I had a very different take on the final outcome here, and one that I'm not sure I can express as factually as y'all can.

I do think that Moe truly believes in the apocalypse and what they needed to fight against, and the power of the unifying force - the thousandfold thought - that he presumes will allow the remaining humans to successfully stave off the 2nd apocalypse. While he views the Outside as a Bad Thing and something he does not believe in, I don't think for a second he can reasonably view it as something to be allowed to be removed, because he understands the effects of the outside being removed if not the belief in that thing. Much like a TV repairman might understand how to fix a TV but not what makes a TV work. Would other Dunyain view things this way? It's hard to say for certain; I think they must if they are given what came before, like Moe and Kellhus were.

But this was not the Dunyain's goal. Having a second Sejenus was not the original intent of the Dunyain - they were established before the first war with the Inchoroi happened, right? (or during...that thing lasted for frickin EVER) The original Anasurimbor wasn't even the most pivotal player in the first apocalypse. Why should Kellhus be the pivotal good guy in the 2nd?

What if Moe is absolutely right? Kellhus is undeniably powerful but the Consult, as it stands currently, is absolutely not. Kellhus has united the 3 seas (sorta kinda) against...what? Serwe, Cnaiur and the unnamed skinspy, along with a general-turned-bird who tells little kids secrets to steal their candy? Where is this Consult threat? If the Gnosis and the Mandate were the most powerful enemy, why were more skinspies not infiltrating the Mandate's group instead of the Cishaurim and the Scarlet Spires?

What if Kellhus, by finding a connection to the No-God (which is the only God that speaks to the Mandate), has become absolutely corrupted in the same way that those original Nonmen were? Again, this would imply that Moe was absolutely correct and that Kellhus was absolutely correct in killing Moe, for no one else might guess his ultimate corruption.

Except, of course, for Akka, through Seshi's dreams - the only hero descended from the only true hero. And paradoxically, Cnaiur. view post


Water posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by kalbear, Candidate

This seems as good a topic for this as any I could locate.

What I thought was interesting was the striking similarity between the supposed motivation and power behind the Cishaurim - passion - and the Consult's absolute driving motivation of passion. I don't know whether there's a true link here yet, but it was striking to me that passion seemed to be so linked between true 'evil' (at least via the Consult) and this magic that was orthogonally situated from the intellectual pursuits of the Schools.

Then again, the strong implication I get from reading is that the Consult/Inchoroi do not use sorcery/magic in any form, really; it is entirely different and technologically-based from the sorcery. Hence the God/No-God duality, the Consult worried about their souls, the continued talk about the architects, constructs, and the lost 'art' of 'making' skinspies and the like. view post


Mekeritrig posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by kalbear, Candidate

If Mekeratig had told the consult about his encounter with Kellhus, the consult would pretty much know where to find the Dunyain, don't you think.
But the Consult don't know what the Dunyain are. They spend most of TTT trying to even figure this out. They know about the Anasurimbor title, but they do not know that this has anything to do with anyone named 'Dunyain' or where they might be residing.

That Kellhus shares blood with Celomas doesn't really matter to the Consult as far as the Dunyain goes; the old prophecy (that the Consult surely know about) says only that an Anasurimbor will return.

Furthermore we know that the Consult later find out that Kellhus isn't who he says he is (not a prince of Arittrau (or however you spell it)) - and one possible way this would be found out is by Mekeritig talking about his encounter. No, I think he spilled what he knew after Kellhus escaped, but no one in the world knew about what Dunyain were save Cnauir, Moe, Kellhus, some select Cishaurim, and maybe a couple of random people along the way like Akka and Esme. Hence the single-minded questioning of 'who are the Dunyain?' over and over at the end of WP. If the Consult knew that the Dunyain were a threat, they would have not bothered asking that question. view post


Conphas' story posted 30 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AConphas' story by kalbear, Candidate

Hi, Scott. Yeah, I know, you're busy and won't get around to answering this immediately, but just in case you pop by sometime soon...

I was wondering about Ikurei Conphas' tale, and where it was intended from TDTCB to TTT. In TDTCB, he seems truly destined for big things and a large chunk of the book is devoted to both things about him and what he actually is capable of. By the end, fo course, he is eclipsed by Cnauir, but still appears to be a formidable force.

And then he kind of...slinks away. We see mention of him here and there, with the Great and Lesser Lords, occasionally in battle scenes, and a very few scenes of Nansur. The tone of TWP and TTT in reference to him and Nansur in general changes significantly.

What I'm curious about is whether this was intentionally done, and if it was intentionally done what your intent was. To me, it came across as you kind of losing his narrative in the scheme of having all these other things that needed telling, and he had to be kind of wrapped up later in a vaguely anticlimactic (at least by comparison to Kiyuth/TDTCB) way. But I admit I may have missed many things here.

Thanks again for a wonderful book series. view post


Holy war goals - Consult and Kellhus posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtHoly war goals - Consult and Kellhus by kalbear, Candidate

Something I've been very confused about after reading TTT is the overall goal of the Consult with respect to the Holy War. From Skeaos being a skinspy (and encouraging the war to some degree) to the Synthese discussions with Sarcellus, I had thought that the goal of the Consult was to wipe out the Cishaurim - and thanks to TTT, presumably because of Moe's probing and discovering the skinspies in Fanim/Cish hands.

What's weird about this is that this seems to be Kellhus' ultimate goal as well - or it might as well be given the ending. It's not like he seemed to care if the Cishaurim were alive or dead, or whether the Scarlet Spires survived - or really, if any of the sorcerous entities survived. As far as I can tell Kellhus wiped out the last of the Cishaurim after he did his trinary utterance/inutterance.

So, first question: why exactly was the Consult's goal to wipe out the Cishaurim?
Second question: why did Kellhus do the Consult's job for them?
Third question: if the Mandate was such a mortal enemy of the Consult's, why were they not doing more against the Mandate from the onset? I seem to recall that Sarcellus had both a Chorae in his possession and was happily hanging around Akka/Esme at many times, yet never bothered to kill him - why let Akka hang around at all but do things like kill Inrau? view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by kalbear, Candidate

I actually just read that prologue bit - the Dunyain were absolutely not established during the apocalypse. They took up residence with the Anasurimbor, but that's all. It's pretty clear from the reading that they were known about - &quot;We are Dunyain - why should you fear us?&quot;

The trick is that during the apocalypse, the Dunyain were forgotten about by the outside world. Forgotten by the Consult, by Men, by everyone.

Skinspies can infiltrate schools; they just can't be the sorcerors themselves. Each school has plenty of non-magic using people associated with it - servants, guards, etc. I know that when they could they had a skinspy take control of a fairly pivotal being in a school, but for the most part they seem to have infiltrated the earthly areas and not the schools.

Kellhus must care about humanity in some way if he is trying to stop the Second Apocalypse.
And that's the part I dispute. I don't believe that Kellhus is trying to stop the second apocalypse. I think Moe was but I haven't seen an indicator in the text or in Kellhus' actions that tells me he is. Moe wanted the Thousandfold Thought because he wanted to unite the 3 seas against a common foe, but could not figure out how to get there. Kellhus got to that Thought...but what will he use it for? view post


Holy war goals - Consult and Kellhus posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtHoly war goals - Consult and Kellhus by kalbear, Candidate

No, it could have happened that way, Mr. Nobuddy - though the implication to me was that the Cishaurim - who were always remarked to be weaker as a whole than the Scarlet Spires - were almost at the brink of destroying all the SS folks. Until Kellhus popped by and snapped all their necks.

If the Cishaurim are around, I think they're such a small threat that they're not important. Furthermore, because they're not able to detect skinspies by themselves they're probably inconsequential to the Consult at this point, especially given the threat that Kellhus implies.

He'd united the Inrithi under him through the mechanism of a war to destroy the Cishaurim; not to follow through with it wouldn't particularly compromise the position he had set up for himself, but it would seem odd to the Men of the Tusk.
This is completely false. Most of the Men of the Tusk didn't care about the Cishaurim other than that they were an obstacle. The only reason that the Cishaurim were at all consequential was that their involvement made the Scarlet Spires want to join the fight. Remember - the holy war (and Maithanet's pronouncement) was to take Holy Shimeh. And in the end, they had done this and united both Fanim and Inrithi; at that point, the Cishaurim were inconsequential and the Men of the Tusk no longer cared about their original purpose, anyway; all were united under the power of Kellhus and Maithanet.

The only reason I can see that Kellhus had to destroy the Cishaurim was that they would oppose him because of Moe - but that seems odd to me, given both how Moe died and Kellhus' power over others. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by kalbear, Candidate

Sorry for necroing a thread, but this struck me this morning as well. The very first instance we have of seeing Seswatha in a dream we have Akka remarking (and recording) the differences in it from prior dreams, and he makes it sound as if this is a common occurrence. In feel, or in sight, or whatever - Seswatha's dreams do alter, though never as significantly as this final dream.

And I agree, Guest - I think that this is a clear harbinger that Kellhus is not the savior of the world, or at least not the ultimate savior, and that at some point he will serve the No-God's desire. view post


A really silly observation from TDtCB about Cishaurim posted 30 May 2006 in The Warrior ProphetA really silly observation from TDtCB about Cishaurim by kalbear, Candidate

It almost should belong in TDtCB, but it deals with info about the Cishaurim we get in TWP so it bears saying here.

We know what the Cishaurim are like - they're deliberately blinded, don't have the Mark, have snakes around them to see, etc. Well, I don't think Bakker knew this when he wrote TDtCB.

Hounds, Geshrunni would tell him, now ran freely through the halls of the Scarlet Spires, trained to smell the saffron and henna the Cishaurim used to dye their robes
(TDtCB, pg 48)
Now, I might've just, say, looked for the blinded dudes with the snakes around their necks, but specially-trained hounds works too. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Seriously, is this answered anywhere else? I didn't think that the Cishaurim were capable of a glamour that would totally disguise them from anyone, even if their magic is not distinguishable to schoolmen. view post


Holy war goals - Consult and Kellhus posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtHoly war goals - Consult and Kellhus by kalbear, Candidate

But the goal wasn't to take out a religion. The war was to retake Shimeh, and as stated later on it's clear that Kellhus unites the entire Inri/Fanim group together under one religion and one view - with the Men of the Tusk's blessing.

If he can unite the Inri with the Fanim, surely he can allow the religious leaders to live as long as they go along with him, right?

All I'm saying is that the Cishaurim were not the primary goal of the Holy War, and utterly obliterating them was not the primary point of the Holy War. Most Men of the Tusk didn't care about the leaders of a religion or anything like that; repeated throughout the book, they wanted to retake Holy Shimeh from the infidels. view post


Holy war goals - Consult and Kellhus posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtHoly war goals - Consult and Kellhus by kalbear, Candidate

Wow. I guess I totally missed the absolute forcing of anyone to convert or die. Must check that out.

Still, what's to stop the Cishaurim from converting? after all, isn't that what Moe did? view post


Water posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by kalbear, Candidate

We don't know what kind of sorcery the Inchoroi use, however. The Synthese house the souls of Men, and we know what they're doing - they use the Gnosis. Sorry, I should've been more precise.

The Inchoroi don't seem to be magically based. They use technology, as far as I can tell. The Consult are Magi and Generals that are Men, and as such can happily use magic. view post


Water posted 31 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by kalbear, Candidate

...and banded together with the remaining Inchoroi and Cunoroi Erratics.

...together the Inchoroi (only two left now)
Huh. I could've sworn that Akka describes exploring Golgotterath and saying that there were no more Inchoroi - but the Men became corrupted by the Inchoroi power and worked with the Nonmen that were corrupted to learn more. Who are the two that are left? Aurang and Aurax are men, IIRC.

Do we know anything about what Inchoroi are like? view post


Water posted 31 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by kalbear, Candidate

Aurang calls himself a man, stuck in this Synthese body. But he was a Man before, IIRC. Also, aren't all the Consult automatically &quot;men&quot; - I mean, that's what the Consult was, right? The Magi and Generals that were supporting the Apocalypse?

ETA: Never mind, I checked the appendix on them, and they're both Inchoroi. Huh. Could've sworn there was a specific passage that talks about them being men. view post


The Hangover Whinge: Why oh Why? + A Misery Poll posted 15 June 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionThe Hangover Whinge: Why oh Why? + A Misery Poll by kalbear, Candidate

Tequila fucks you up like nothing else. It is known. view post


  •  

The Three Seas Forum archives are hosted and maintained courtesy of Jack Brown