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vercint Peralogue | joined 23 April 2006 | 36 posts

truth glistens posted 23 April 2006 in Philosophy Discussiontruth glistens by vercint, Peralogue

Yes, and the truth is that there is no truth... view post

What introduced you to philosophy? posted 23 April 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat introduced you to philosophy? by vercint, Peralogue

I read this book called Sophie's World by a chap called Jostein Gaardner. It is a novel, but it told the history of philosophy in the process... well, the shortned version, but anyway it was quite amazing. It sort of got me thinking about things, and everything made a lot less sense after that. It was as if someone pulled the carpet from under my feet, and there was nothing at all underneath it.
Reading the novel now, it doesn't seem so fantastic anymore, but I was only thirteen at the time and it was pretty powerful stuff for an unsuspecting little child... I'm not sure my parents knew what they were doing to me when they got that book. view post

Transhumanism and Genetic Engineering posted 24 April 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionTranshumanism and Genetic Engineering by vercint, Peralogue

Nice, virus

Of course, freedom is merely an illusion; we are all slaves of the darkness that comes before...

There is no real trade off between freedom and technology. The first is a concept we like to pretend we have in order to make our lives seem significant, the second is a historical phenomenon that has fundamentally changed our lives and continues to do so, quite independently of whether we want it to or not. Of course, in order to maintain the illusion that our choices actually matter society debates whether to make further technological advances or not, when in fact progress -- or whatever you want to call it -- proceeds not through a collective decision by society or government, but through the aggregate of individual discoveries by scientists; just as history is not the result of large, visible events but of the sum of small, marginal events that are unrecorded because, indivdually, they don't matter.

Nevertheless, it would be awesome to manufacture a Kellhus or ten and unleash on the world. After all, we've already got a holy war for him... view post

Critique this phrase posted 27 April 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionCritique this phrase by vercint, Peralogue

I agree completely. Terry Goodkind doesn't write about the proletariat and their struggles, that's for sure. No, he writes about the greatness of the human spirit, it is known.

Oh, wait, I forgot. TG writes Speculative Fiction, not Epic Fantasy... view post

The Amoral Khellus posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Amoral Khellus by vercint, Peralogue

I would say that Kellhus is actually moral, because he has become human. Unlike his father, the world has changed him to the extent that he has discovered a goal beyond the Dunyain ideology. He changed the purpose of the Holy War to suit him, but the war also changed him. He is moved by humanity when he hangs on the circumfix with Serwe and cries, or when he confronts the Inchoroi as Esmi and realises he feels pain... he realises that being human is greater than the sterilty of the Dunyain; that is why Moenghus calls him mad, and why he says that he is 'more' than Dunyain -- he has all their abilities and knowledge, but his goal is no longer the Absolute.
In deciding to save mankind from the Consult, Kellhus has defected from a fundamental principle of the Dunyain. They believe that everything -- absolutely everything -- is relative save the Logos; there are no morals, no right or wrong, nothing save the Shortest Path to the Absolute. Any act to attain that is possible, and its merits are determined only by practicality. Kellhus has identified something as being wrong; the Consult. In opposinig them, he doing something which is right. Any act in order to defeat the Consult is still possible, but his goal is to achieve something which is unequivocally good. view post

Mekeritrig posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by vercint, Peralogue

I agree that Mekeretrig is an ambigious figure... as are all nonmen, I imagine. What he says to Kellhus is actually "I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness". Unless his memory is incorrect -- which it might be -- this means he fought on both sides in the Apocalypse. Perhaps Seswatha turned him at Dauglish, but there is no way of knowing.
He also says he has "scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath". This means little, I suppose, since he is one of the Consult... but maybe it means he was part of the Ordeal, and returned to the Consult only when the No-God awakened? That's a lot of side-switching though.
Oh, and when he first hears Kellhus' name he says "I can see his blood in your face". Who is referring to? It isn't Seswatha because he was of humble origins, not of royal blood. I'm thinking it is Celmomas, because Seswatha mentions him destroying records of Mekeretrig in Kuniuri, implying there was something personal between them. Why, after all, weren't those reords destroyed earlier? view post

PON vs MBOF vs ASOIAF posted 01 May 2006 in Literature DiscussionPON vs MBOF vs ASOIAF by vercint, Peralogue

I like all three series a lot... sure, they're different, but if they were all the same that'd be rather boring.

I can understand the criticism of Kellhus being invincible; there seems no way he could possible die because that'd ruin the series. Also, he is just too intelligent for anyone, even his most powerful enemies, to outwit, so the only way he could die would be by his own miscalculation. On the other hand, Kellhus is what makes the series unique, without him it would simply be another Tolkein derivative. Also, he isn't the hero of the series Achamian is, his invincibility is less of a problem.... than, say, Rand in WoT.

Eriksons characters are also insanely powerful, but it works out because there are so many of them that no one has enough relative power to dominate others the way Kellhus does. As for amazing intelligence, I'm pretty sure Tehol Beddict could outwit Kellhus. In any case he's a great deal funnier. view post

Mekeritrig posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by vercint, Peralogue

It does, but that was Celmomas' wife, and the bastard would be Nil-Cuyas. Kellhus is descended from the youngest son of the king that succeeded Celmomas after Eleneot.
Mekeretrig could be referring to Nil-Cuyas; he died in Golgottereath, so perhaps Mekeretrig had a memorable encounter with him there... he might even be the face Mekeretrig points out to Kellhus.
I agree Celmomas is the likelier though... the way Nil-Cuyas' death is phrased it almost seems like Seswatha is responsible for his death... rather like Achamian and Inrau. view post

The Amoral Khellus posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Amoral Khellus by vercint, Peralogue

As Curethan says, Kellhus seldom lies; he manipulates the truth.

Apart from that though, both the scene with Serwe and the one with the false Esmi are from Kellhus' POV. Presumably he doesn't lie to himself. I agree his conversation with Moenghus is not strightforward, but the last thing he says to his father is that he is more. Since he intends for him to die there is no need to lie, and anyway it seems that his last words to Moenghus should be significant.
Perhaps Kellhus is lying to himself when he claims to be 'more'... rather like Conphas when he insists to himself that he is a god. Towards the end it is not entirely clear what moves Kellhus; once he grasps the Thousandfold Thought reaching his father is no longer the objective, it is part of the Shortest Path to something else...
It seems to me that defeating the Consult is his new goal... or rather he realises that this was the goal all along. The Thousandfold Thought of his father created the Holy War so that Kellhus could take it over not simply in order to reach Moenghus, but so that he could become Aspect-Emperor. What Moenghus didn't realise was that the Holy War took over a part of Kellhus as well, rendering the two of them incompatible. view post

The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by vercint, Peralogue

Do the Nonmen believe in damnation though? Or is it only the Consult and the Inchoroi?

Kellhus' theory, as he explains it to Akka, implies that there is no god; men are god, and men created god, and with god damnation. That's why, if the Consult were to succeed in destroying mankind, or most of it, god, and therefor damnation, would cease to exist. view post

Nilnameshi posted 05 May 2006 in The Warrior ProphetNilnameshi by vercint, Peralogue

The Nilnameshi are probably something like Persians, or Indians, in that they're on the far side of the Moslems (Fanim) to the Christians (Inrithi) and they have war elephants. They are pagan in that both Fanim and Inrithi regard them as pagan. view post

First Word that Comes to Mind posted 05 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by vercint, Peralogue

wow (as in oath) view post

Terry Goodkind engages in rape fantasy? posted 27 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionTerry Goodkind engages in rape fantasy? by vercint, Peralogue

what, it's all over?

A great pity... that was almost as good as the Portugal-Holland game view post

A Prince of Nothing Wiki posted 29 June 2006 in Author Q & AA Prince of Nothing Wiki by vercint, Peralogue

Most of what we see onstage in PoN is very different from Tolkein, but some of the backstory is clearly drawn from him. Men arriving from the East, Nonmen and Sranc as Elves and Orcs, for instance. The whole siege of Golgotterath is similar to the siege of Angband in the Silmarillion. A lot of the names, especially the northern ones, seem Tolkeinesque. view post

ignorance or enlightenment ? posted 17 July 2006 in Philosophy Discussionignorance or enlightenment ? by vercint, Peralogue

Choosing ignorance or enlightenment is really somewhat of a paradox, since if you are aware of the choice you are not entirely ignorant, and hence it is not, in fact, a choice: you are enlightened. Well, at least a little. Conversely, if you are entirely ignorant, you don't know there is a choice so you can't make it. view post

Akka the Anarchist posted 14 August 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAkka the Anarchist by vercint, Peralogue

I don't think Kellhus will ever be able to control either Akka or Esmi the same way again. They will become more like Cnaiur in that they are aware of his manipulation and so distrustful of everything he says. Of course, Kellhus will still be able to use them, the way he manipulated Cnaiur by using something they cannot resist desiring above all else... probably her child for Esmi, and the war against the Consult for Akka.

In AE I think we'll see more of Seswatha's memories of Celmomas, and the parallels between the first apocalypse and the second will become clear... Kellhus will be Celmomas, Akka Seswatha, and since AE is twenty years into the future, there may even be a latter version of Nau-Cayuti. view post

Akka the Anarchist posted 17 August 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAkka the Anarchist by vercint, Peralogue

I like this theory, but I think the notion of Kellhus healing the Erratics is unlikely. Consider in TTT when he couldn't heal Xin's eyes... which Akka took to mean that he's not really a prophet. Kellhus may be the master of the mental, but he cannot heal physical injuries, and I think the cause of the madness in the Nonmen is that their brains are only capable of retaining memories for their normal lifetime. Kellhus would be unable fix this. Of course, in twenty years, who knows? view post

No-God and the Topoi of Caraskand posted 18 August 2006 in The Warrior ProphetNo-God and the Topoi of Caraskand by vercint, Peralogue

Very interesting notion. That would help to explain the Circumfixion.

As for the No-god, I certainly agree he is not your average Dark Lord, but to me his questions suggest a profound lack of some sort. It's like he doesn't know what he is

I don't understand...
Death. Wretched death!
Even you cannot hide from what you don't know! Even you!
'Doomed' whispered Seswatha to the thunder. 'Now, Anaxophus! Strike now!'
A thread of silver light...[the No-God is destroyed]

R. Scott Bakker, The Warrior Prophet, p16

So what do you make of this? I think the No-God is incapable of perceiving itself, which must cause it some distress... it's insane, rather like Cnaiur, only more profoundly and on a grander scale. Also like Cnaiur, the No-God destroys by nature, rather than by choice. view post

The No-God posted 20 August 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by vercint, Peralogue

But isn't Kellhus lying to Aurang in order to unbalance him? The only time Kellhus hears the No-God is on the circumfix in Caraskand, and then it is only the same questions as in Akka's dreams. I don't think the No-God ever says anything else in any of the three books. Clearly, the No-God possesses awareness, but his questions seem to imply that he lacks even the most basic understanding of himself. view post

The No-God posted 20 August 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by vercint, Peralogue

I agree that the question turns on whether the No-God controls his own destructive effect or not. From what we see of him so far I think he doesn't, but PoN doesn't give a definite answer. Probably because the question is important for later series.

I think the most significant information about the No-God so far are the questions, which imply he lacks self-awareness amd hence the ability to be intentionally evil, and the description in TWP p16 of the Carapace as a "nimil sarcophagus sheathed in choric script." This suggests that his nature is similar to that of Chorae, which we know are paradoxes which undo sorcery. My guess is the No-God is a contradiction intended to undo life (that would explain the dead-born children). view post

who should determine what is "right"? posted 22 August 2006 in Philosophy Discussionwho should determine what is "right"? by vercint, Peralogue

Actually, right is the opposite of left. Which is why communists are so evil. view post

Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 28 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by vercint, Peralogue

Hey, someone actually posted without offering sexual services or amazing poker playing!

Two points.

First, I think we can say for certain that many of the Dunyain are of the Few. Moenghus contacted them through dreams, using the Cishaurim version of the spell Akka names 'Calling'. In TWP Akka explains how this cant works: the person doing the calling must know the person he's calling to, and he must know where the person is. Logically, both people must also be of the Few. Moenghus therefore could only Call those Dunyain he knew at Ishual, which is why only elder Dunyain were had the dreams in the beginning of TDTCB. Given the regularity of the Dunyain lifestyle he could also know where these people slept. Those of the elder Dunyain that had the dreams would have been of the Few, elsewise they could not have received Moenghus' cant.

Second, concerning Moenghus' judgement of Maithanet. As I recall, he bases this judgement as much on the fact that Maithanet has not grown up in Ishual as on his worldborn ancestry. Dunyain superority is not merely about genetics, the cultural advantge -- that is, the way they are raised -- is at least as important, especially when it comes to mental ability. There is obviously no way Moenghus could have trained his son as thoroughly as the Dunyain train their children at Ishual. Whether or not Maithanet would be judged as 'defective' in Ishual because he is less naturally gifted is beside the point; given his limited training there is no way he would measure up to a true Dunyain. view post

Perceptions of Reality posted 28 September 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionPerceptions of Reality by vercint, Peralogue

Quote: "Will":3ibiqt93
It seems self-evident, at first, that the world is objective and human beings are merely pieces thereof. This would lead directly to the conclusion that the math which describes that world (physics) is the deepest "truth" that exists. [/quote:3ibiqt93]

Or rather, math and physics are the closest we have come to describing the objective world accurately. Since our perception is inherently subjective it follows that we cannot achieve a perfectly true description of the world.

The same, of course, goes for God. The imperfect (us) cannot apprehend the perfect (Him). Which is why "the wise think of God not at all. They know that thought, which is finite, can only do violence upon God, who is infinite.
It is enough, they say, that God thinks them." view post

Dunyain Intellectual Bankruptcy posted 29 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtDunyain Intellectual Bankruptcy by vercint, Peralogue

I think it's a bit like that bad reality show called CNN a couple years back. Pretty boring episode, in all.

CC, the Dunyain are not 'seekers of truth' (that would be a certain Richard Rahl); they seek to become a 'self-moving soul'. To achieve this they isolate themselves so that the 'outside' can't influence them. They believe the truth is found within, not in the world around them.
They know the world is out there (although they have no idea what it looks like) but they just don't want to be part of it. To be part of the world is to be moved by it; only in isolation can one hope to become self-moving. view post

Dunyain Intellectual Bankruptcy posted 03 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtDunyain Intellectual Bankruptcy by vercint, Peralogue

Quote: "Cynical Cat"

Their withdrawl from the world is equally dishonest, for they have substituted the preconceptions of Inshual for those of the world, not eliminated preconceptions all together. The best illustration of this is that both Moenghus and Kelhus have better understandings of the nature of the soul once they enter the world.

And lastly, since the name Dunyain means "truth", for them to deliberately lie about the nature of the world is dishonest.[/qoute]

You're right that the Dunyain have simply substituted one set of preconceptions for another. Eliminating all preconceptions is impossible. The Dunyain are different on that they make their preconceptions explicit. The world-born don't know why they do things -- this is why Moenghus and Kellhus, who can see the why, control them so easily. The Dunyain know their why -- to achieve the self-moving soul -- and they understand how they have been indoctrinated. This makes them far less dishonest than any other society.

Quote: "Cynical Cat"

Of course they need to justify their actions. That they don't is why they are in danger of following the Consult onto the path of mass genocide. Disregard for moral consequences doesn't mean they don't exist.[/qoute]

This is only true if there are in fact moral consequences. In Earwa (unlike our own world) it seems there are in fact moral consequences to one's actions, although there is no absolute certainty on the subject. The Dunyain believe morals are invented buy human societies, and that there are no real moral consequneces. If there are indeed moral consequences, then the Dunyain have been operating on false premises all along, and are likely to burn in hell for it.

As you point out, the isolation of Ishual reinforces the Dunyain beliefs because they are not exposed to any ideas save those of their own devising. They must have destroyed all memory of sorcery and theology a long time ago, based on a concious choiceand a belief that their own ideas were superior to those of worldly society. Of the two Dunyain exposed to the world, Moenghus maintains the Dunyain belief, while Kellhus comes to believe in moral consequences -- although conveniently enough, he stand above them because he is the Harbringer. The PoN series does not resolve which belief is actually correct. view post

The new craze posted 03 October 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionThe new craze by vercint, Peralogue

I think it's got something to do with society's repressive views on things that can help relive the stress these kids are obviously feeling; namely sex, drugs, and alcohol. See, in societies with a liberal attitude to these largely harmless recreative activities (like in our beloved, godless Europe) such tragedies barely occur at all, whereas in more conservative places (like America and the Middle East), where said harmless recreations are frowned upon, ppl find other ways of expressing their frustrations. Such as shooting thier classmates, or blowing themselves and their neighbours to pieces... all depending on local customs, as well as the relative availability of firearms and explosive devices. view post

Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 03 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by vercint, Peralogue

CC, you're right to point out that we don't know for a certainty. I was just blurring the arguments together, hoping no one would notice that every one of them weren't waterproof.

As for killing off the Dunyain Few, I think that would depend on how the Dunyain do their whole breeding program; if only the young have babies (which makes sense, since if each generation is slightly better than the preceding one, you want as many generations as possible) then Moenghus' dreams would not have affected much, since those who go into the labyrinthe to die are reffered to as the 'elders'. view post

Was Cnauir gay? posted 16 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by vercint, Peralogue

I agree with Peter. I didn't see it the first couple of times I read the book, but Cnaiur is definitely attracted to Proyas. You can see it in the way he thinks about Proyas at times when it makes no sense for him to do so unless he feels something for him. For instance, Proyas comes up several times whe he's thinking about Moenghus, and that time when he fucks a whole in he ground. And as Peter says, he carried Proyas through the Khemena desert. When Proyas asks him, he says it was because his position in the Holy War depends on Proyas. But he does it in that short, brutal way he uses when denying something he knows is true. Besides, if you think about it, Cnaiur doesn't really care about status anyway.

Sure, some of this might be put down to paternal feelings, but I think Cnaiur's respect for Proyas is that of a man for another man, not a child. He always puts down the Iinrithi for being womanish and weak, but always excepts Proyas from this judgement. I think he sees in Proyas the qualities he admires in others, but without the deceptive ways of the Dunyain.

It's all very subtle though, because Cnauir is himself trying to deny it, and since it's only evident in his pov it becomes hard to see because you tend to accept what the character thinks of himself as true. With Cnaiur this doesn't work because he is not quite sane view post

Gnosis vs. Anagogis, and sorcery in general posted 16 October 2006 in Author Q & AGnosis vs. Anagogis, and sorcery in general by vercint, Peralogue

Twaypleh's explanation about how sorcery works is very good, but it doesn't answer clearly as to what you can do with sorcery, although it implies you can do pretty much anything you can wrap your mind around. It is never explained in the books why sorcerors can do some things but not others, and only a little about what makes one man a more powerful sorceror than another. Clearly intelligence is central to Gnostic and Anagogic magic, while moral strength, or something like that, is central to the Psukhe.

Kellhus' Cant of Transposing, requires a second inutteral. Could you do this with Anagogic sorcery? or the Pshuke? The way Moenghus describes sending dreams all across the world as exhausting to the point of being fatal, it seems there is some sort of inherent physical limit to the Cishaurim magic. The Gnosis, on the other hand, seems to be all about the mind, which is why Kellhus is so powerful.

But there must be some sort of limit. Could he add a third inutteral and make it a time-travelling cant, or something like that? If sorcery is making the world conform to words, why can't a sorceror make anything at all happen? view post

Anoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... posted 16 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by vercint, Peralogue

I think it could simply be that he's acted out a role for so long that he has come to believe it. Sort of like the Viramsatta game that Moenghus describes, the THT has taken on a life of its own, and Kellhus has become a slave just as everone else. view post


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