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Curethan Didact | joined 28 March 2006 | 397 posts


Mekeritrig posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Curethan, Didact

Doesn't it say something in the glossary about the possibility of Seswatha having cuckolded Celomomas? view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Curethan, Didact

Yah, Non-men are/were the progenitors of the consult. It was one of their gnostic schools that excavated the Arc - searching for a solution to the problem of damnation if I recall.

I think that all "ensouled" creatures are linked to the outside - their beliefs help to shape and define the gods and other powers there, whilst they in turn can affect events in Earwa. A kind of symbiosis of faith and philosophy with life. Which makes sorcery and it's connection with damnation very interesting - sorcery can only be used for destruction, and it leaves a mark... view post


Mekeritrig posted 01 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Curethan, Didact

Now that I think on it, it is more likely that Mekeritig recognized Kellhus by his Non-man blood... which could explain why Mekeritig let him go, or at least didn't pursue him too hard.

If Mekeratig had told the consult about his encounter with Kellhus, the consult would pretty much know where to find the Dunyain, don't you think. view post


First Word that Comes to Mind posted 01 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by Curethan, Didact

fire view post


PON vs MBOF vs ASOIAF posted 02 May 2006 in Literature DiscussionPON vs MBOF vs ASOIAF by Curethan, Didact

Gah! Snuggly pink bunnies!

Hand me my +4 chainsword of antipathy. view post


The Bonehunters and Steven Erikson posted 02 May 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Bonehunters and Steven Erikson by Curethan, Didact

First Erikson I read was Deadhouse Gates. I would recomend it as an entrance point for the series, as the action and cast is more tightly focused and the plot uses a lot of familiar conventions from old war movies, giving it better general appeal. view post


First Word that Comes to Mind posted 02 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by Curethan, Didact

sex view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 02 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Curethan, Didact

Arwyl=
I wonder if the Dunyain have any inkling at all of what has been happening. I don't remember far back, but do they expect Khellus to return after killing Moe?

And now that Khellus has killed Moe for being "a Dunyain still", would they send another to kill Khellus? It's possible they would think that given the events, sending someone alone would be too risky and so perhaps ally themselves with the Consult instead.


I believe Kellhus was only sent to eliminate Moe after Moe had contacted the Dunyain. The idea is to keep the outside world at bay. They have establiched their own little enclave that is unconnected to the outside (exactly what the consult seek) and require intellectual and spiritual isolation in order to achieve their goal of producing a self moving soul. If Kellhus seeks to contact them, they would then move to eliminate him.


Entropic_existence=
Actually it was a human Gnostic school (The Mengaeacca) who "re-discovered" the Ark and linked up with the remaining Inchoroi to form the Consult. Of course as far back as the Cuno-Inchoroi wars there were Non-men who had sided with the Consult and after the Womb Plague and time went on, and more Erratics appeared the Erratics tended to shift over to that side as well.


Okay, you made me look in the glossary. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

quote:
&quot;Mangaecca- ....the last of the four original Gnostic Schools. ...then, in 777, at the behest of a Nonman Erratic named Cet'ingira (aka Mekeritig), they discovered the Incu-Holoinas...&quot;

Gnostic sorcery was developed by the Nonmen Quya, who imparted it to the Norsirai turing the Nonman Tutelage, 555-825.
As the Mangaecca was originally a Nonman School, and the Ark was rediscovered during the tutelage, we can assume that there were more than just one Nonman involved.

However,&quot; it was Shaeoenanra (in 1123) who claimed to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery.&quot; Interesting word; rediscovered.

Nonman bootprints all over the Consult, and Aurax and Aurang seem suspiciously like Oirinas and Oirunan if ya ask me.

But I can't find any official Nonmen listed as being part of the Consult. view post


The No-God posted 02 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Curethan, Didact

Entropic_existence
3)The Skin-Spy with a soul was described as an aberation. As Scott has said before only Humans, The Inchoroi, and the Non-men are inherently souled but sometimes, through circumstance, creatures without souls can &quot;Awaken&quot;. Something like this happened with that Skin-Spy who infiltrated the Mandate. Luckily the Consult never could duplicate it.


Interesting that the aberation just happened to have a soul powerful/old/aware (whatever the criteria actually are) enough to wield sorcery. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 02 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Curethan, Didact

Well, you could hardly call Shaeoenanra human any more either... view post


PON vs MBOF vs ASOIAF posted 03 May 2006 in Literature DiscussionPON vs MBOF vs ASOIAF by Curethan, Didact

I have an aversion to my local newspaper for the gratuitous way in which assaults and attrocities are reported, describing heinous events in unnecasary detail, and returning to dwell on such incidents on slow news days and Sunday editions.

In the context that Steve is writing his fiction, such happenings serve a purpose in exploring the philosophical and psychological themes that his story encompasses. The sympthetic exploration of a character such as Cnaiur would be repulsively difficult for someone who had suffered at the hands of such a character.

Returning to the newspaper analogy, PoN contains less graphic accounts of assault and violence (for the most part) but because the reader is often asked to empathise with either the victim or the perpatrator it is more affecting.

The ambitiously and perceptively rendered characters in PoN can only exist in a world that reflects our own as closely as Earwa and it is this level of &quot;realistic fantasy&quot; that sets it apart from 99% of other fantasy titles - possibly closer to speculative fiction or contempory lit.

Couple others I can think of are Jeff Vandermeer's City of Saints and Madmen and Steph Swainston's &quot;the Year of our War&quot;. Parts of the latter were hard for me to read.

PoN is the kind of book that will split people's opinions as to whether you like it or loathe it, but I don't find it offensive - mildly galling and depressingly realistic at times, but not offensive.

I can appreciate people disliking the mysoginistic and barbarous behaviour in PoN, but I do not feel that the story neither encourages nor attempts to justify it, quite the opposite. view post


Who is most offensive. posted 03 May 2006 in Literature DiscussionWho is most offensive. by Curethan, Didact

I was readin in another thread that some folk dislike PoN because of the mysoginy, rape and genocidal attrocities described therein. Which got me to thinking, &quot;Yeh, some of that was fairly depressing stuff....&quot;

So I thought we could have a poll. view post


First Word that Comes to Mind posted 03 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by Curethan, Didact

road view post


Who is most offensive. posted 04 May 2006 in Literature DiscussionWho is most offensive. by Curethan, Didact

Personally, I find PoN as offensive as a shield ... but I put it on the list in the interests of equanamity. If you haven't read the others on the list - lucky you. And the last two, well, hopefully they're out of print. view post


First Word that Comes to Mind posted 04 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionFirst Word that Comes to Mind by Curethan, Didact

law view post


Favorite books/series posted 05 May 2006 in Literature DiscussionFavorite books/series by Curethan, Didact

Princess Bride. view post


The Warrior Prophet in Australia? posted 05 May 2006 in The Warrior ProphetThe Warrior Prophet in Australia? by Curethan, Didact

They usually release them at the same time that the next trad paperback in the series is released - thats the usual pattern with fantasy series. So when TTT is released (they've been stuffing around the release date for a while now - but it should be next month, I believe) you should see the mass paperback shortly thereafter. view post


Where in the world is R. Scott Bakker? posted 10 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionWhere in the world is R. Scott Bakker? by Curethan, Didact

Lol.


I wonder how much a book written and signed by an illusory abstraction would fetch on E-bay. view post


Now Reading... posted 12 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by Curethan, Didact

China Mieville
Perdido Street Station view post


halloed hands posted 15 May 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughthalloed hands by Curethan, Didact

Could be that they're an effect of Kellhus's link to powers of the outside, and depending on your &quot;linkedness&quot; to these powers you can see them more or less clearly.

I would say kellhus seas them as hes beggining to believe his own lies by the sheer weight of thousands saying it is true


Wow. A lot of posters seem to think Kellhus (and, by extension, other Dunyain) tells lies. I'm still waiting for evidence of this. (Beyond Cnaiur's mad ravings.) Seems straightfoward that the conditioning and attitudes of the Dunyain preclude even an understanding of what it is to lie. view post


halloed hands posted 15 May 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughthalloed hands by Curethan, Didact

He doesn't initiate those lies, they are born in the darkness that comes before. The assertion that his is the prince of Atriau is someone else's lie, and Kellhus is initially confused by concept of claiming that he is something that he is not - although he soon comes to see that it is the only way he will acomplish his journey through the holy war.

As for making use of lies that others believe in... well thats hardly evil. Personally I ascribe no value to coins and notes, and yet I help maintain the illusion that they are worth trading for goods and services. As long as everyone else maintains this lie, no-one gets hurt.... Getting paid and spending money isn't lying, but it is making use of a lie. Different things.

Even then, Kellhus is not really lying, merely behaving in a way that his followers expect. Many times in the narrative there is an obvious choice between lying and saying nothing, and Kellhus says nothing.

The thing that pisses off the characters in the books (and makes him unsympathetic to readers - imo) is not that Kellhus manipulates and changes them, but that they come to love him and therefore to strive and to make sacrifices for him and for the truths he reveals, yet he does not love them in return.

So - next example of Kellhus initiating a lie please. view post


The Fate of Conphas posted 15 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Fate of Conphas by Curethan, Didact

Yeah, reading between the lines there - Conphas was a classic example of a psychopath. view post


halloed hands posted 17 May 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughthalloed hands by Curethan, Didact

Re: the lies thing.
It's quite true, Kellhus as prince of Atraihu who dreamt of the holy war is Kellhus' fabrication (although like all good lies it is seeded in truth - recall his legacy as an Anasurimbor - a royal familial name that he retains after 2000 years....) and so I concede the point. He is definately a liar and no doubt one day his pants will be on fire. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

As to the gravity of his lies, well, I guess it's a matter of perception - and perhaps whether you hold to a form of solipism or not.

As an aside - I don't hold that my concepts of right and wrong or my personal beliefs make something true, false or absolute outside of myself - but I certainly believe that having some kind of moral framework is required for making decisions as a thinking being, and it is this, if anything, that defines us in the world at large and perhaps is the essence of the soul.

Re: the circumfixion.

The circumfixion is indeed a critical point as it is when Kellhus apprehends the Thousandfold thought.

It is clear that the probability trance is in no way a form of precognition. Kellhus would have known only that crisis point was approaching, not the form that it would take. In TDTCB there is a concise point where the internal narative of Kellhus is describing what it is to be Dunyain:
&quot;He did not see what came after. He saw what came before.&quot;

Part of the thousandfold thought is coming to an understanding the dynamics of mob psychology, as Dunyain conditioning teaches how to see
the complete comunication of undisciplined comunication, making the id of an individual transparent, so that the Dunyain can understand an individual better than he understands himself, or in the case of another Dunyain; as well as he understands himself. This, however, does not translate to the behaviour of groups. Moenghus understands the thousandfold thought, this is how he has engineered the Holy War, and Kellhus has to understand it in order to co-opt it. The circumfixion is interesting because, but for Cnaiur's uncharacteristic intervention, Kellhus would have died - a failure.

Re: Kellhus's hands

My theory.

Scott has said, when interviewed, that the inspiration for Kellhus is actually based on the idea of memes. Specifically, a character who can manipulate them. Given my understanding of the concept, memes are ideas that evolve in the &quot;outside&quot;, born of ideas in the real world - extra dimensonal forms of ideas that interact with the real world as interdependant forces.
Given this, and the setting of Earwa as one in which gross and clumsy manipulation of these forces is seen as sorcery and the effects or manifestations of which are seen as gods and demons, I believe that the haloes are evidence of Kellhus's link with certain memes &quot;outside&quot;. Of course, such a link cannot be one way; Kellhus would be both master and slave of these forces. People who are convinced of Kellhus's divinity can see the evidence of it because the are linked to the same memes that are moving/moved by Kellhus. Kellhus can see them, but does not yet understand their nature because he still believes that he is the author of his destiny. Through his heritage and his interactions with the mileu in which he exists this may not be the case. And, perhaps, he does have a burgeoning sense of morality beyond his loyalty to the Dunyain.



Linking this theory to my thoughts on the circumfixion above, it is Serwe who first sees the haloes, convinced early of Kellhus's divinity. And I think that Cnaiur only intervenes and saves Kellhus because of Serwe (although his motivations in that scene were unclear at best). Also, several references are made to Cnaiur himself being some kind of demon - or linked to a demon...

So, to my mind, the haloes and the circumfixion are actual evidence of some kind of relationship that Kellhus has with the divine/ the outside/memes. It may not be that he is begining to believe his own lies, but that they are in fact truer than he realizes. view post


ASOIAF board names posted 17 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionASOIAF board names by Curethan, Didact

Hey. I just joined too!

I too kept my name.

C u there. view post


does anybody know... posted 17 May 2006 in Off-Topic Discussiondoes anybody know... by Curethan, Didact

meh view post


halloed hands posted 17 May 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughthalloed hands by Curethan, Didact

Exactly. Just a bit different in a fantasy context...

I liked David Brin's treatment of the extra dimensional nature of memes in his uplift series too. view post


what kind of hat would akka wear? posted 18 May 2006 in Off-Topic Discussionwhat kind of hat would akka wear? by Curethan, Didact

No hat. Short cropped hair, cuz fatties hate sweatin out the scalp. Balding rather than bald, but not at all in my mental portrait.

Hats are too stereotypical for wizards, and the characters in PoN are anything but stereotyped.

If he did have a hat though, I would recommend Rincewind's, just for irony's sake. view post


Do you believe a God exists? posted 18 May 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionDo you believe a God exists? by Curethan, Didact

I was just thinking .... if there was an omniscient entity (like God, for example) and it knew everything (that's everthing, ever) it wouldn't be capable of thinking, would it? Or percieving time... Or worrying about saving the queen...

But if it can't think, then it isn't - at least according to Descartes (that was him that said I think therefore I am, wasn't it) and he was way smarter than me. view post


Now Reading... posted 18 May 2006 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by Curethan, Didact

Ahaha, just finished Shamanspace by S Aylett. Highly recomended.

Now attempting the Tao Te Ching. Interesting to note that reading it to children is an excellent way to put them to sleep <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


what kind of hat would akka wear? posted 19 May 2006 in Off-Topic Discussionwhat kind of hat would akka wear? by Curethan, Didact

Lol.

And I was just gonna suggest a square cut beard, I think that is described as the &quot;fashion&quot; for older men in Earwa - in Akka's final scene he notes that Proyas looks older with his beard cut square...

I don't think he looks like Osama by the way, I like the middle-eastern caste to his features you have achieved. Fits with my impression of the setting. He doesn't look fat or old enough though, all that time under the sun weathers the skin you know, so maybe a bit darker and more wrinkles for mine.

Re the hat; I reckon one one of those arabic fabric rectangles with the cord around the crown might be good. Some kind of head protection prob'ly would be a nessecity 'cause the three seas seems like a hot kind of place - don't remember snow being mentioned at all around the 3Cs.

Re: clothing; I kind of imagined one of those fat people's shapeless sleeved dress things - you know what I mean? Like Homer wore in that ep of the Simpsons when he packed on the pounds so he could work from home <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> -bit more stylish tho, obv. Maybe a solid red with a dark blue tabard stripe and cuffs - oh yeah, with the cord style belt definatly - matched to the head piece.

Guess I'm suggesting a Lawrence of Arabia style ensemble overall, more like Omar Shariff's character in the movie, but that's just my suggestion based on my internal visualisation...

Very good job so far, I reckon! Kudos. view post


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