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unJon Auditor | joined 08 February 2006 | 134 posts


Woe comes... posted 20 February 2006 in Author Q & AWoe comes... by unJon, Auditor

We don't have enough info to know how. Just as we don't know the how of the Few seeing the Mark. But it seems that some of the Consult can see the mark of Chigra. Certainly Aurang can, and I would argue that at least some of the skin-spies can also. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

OK, this is me going out on a limb. More of a prediction than a theory given the little evidence we have.

We know that a creature needs a soul to work sorcery. We know that at least one skin-spy can work sorcery. So either that skin-spy was an aberration and the only one to have a soul...or do all skin-spies have souls?

Well why not? All humans have souls and only a Few of them can be sorcerors. So, perhaps, all skin-spies have souls and only a few of them can work sorcery. Since there are few skin-spies to begin with (compared to humans), then perhaps there are only a handful that are among the Few.

We have some other evidence. We have seen some skin-spies that recognize Akka as Chigra. I would argue, given the quote from Aurang to Inrau in TDTCB, that seeing Chigra is something similar to seeing the Mark. So only someone that is one of the Few would recoginize Chigra in a Mandate Schoolman. More concisely, if you recognize Chigra then you have a soul. So we have seen at least three skin spies that have souls. 2 that saw Chigra and 1 that was a sorcorer.

My conclusion is that all skin-spies have souls and that at least these 3 were among the Few.

There are good reasons that Consult does not make the skin-spies that are among the Few into Sorcorers. They do not want them to be Marked. The purpose of the skin-spies is to infiltrate various enemy camps. So the Consult would only want to Mark those that infiltrate one of the Schools. There is no other reason to teach Gnosis to one of the skin-spies. Which explains why we see skin-spies that see Chigra but are not Marked.

Now once the 2nd Apocalypse starts and there is a real war happening, then you can teach the Few among the skin-spies the Gnosis. But until then you would only want to teach those that infiltrate the schools.

As an aside, I was wondering if the proportion of Few among skin-spies was higher than the proportion of Few among humans. What made me think it was different is that it seems that the proportion of the Few among the Dunyain is higher than the Few among humans. We have seen 2 Dunyain tested for sorcery (Moenghus and Kellhus) and they are both among the Few. Is that because 1) they are of the Kunerian line of kings, 2) Dunyain, or 3) just random chance.

We have no reason to think that the old High Kings were of the few and random chance is unlikely (though possible). So my thought is that something about the Dunyain breeding for intellect makes them all, or a higher proportion of them, be among the Few. If this is true then it should be interesting in AE if the rest of the Dunyain come into play.

But back on topic. If the Skin-spies have souls and are in some respects bred of increased intelligence then perhaps more of them are among the Few.

I realize that all of this is pretty out there speculation. But let me know what you all think. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

Good points all. Let me keep trying to play devil's advocate.

Cants of compulsion also won't work to get a Mandate Schoolman to give up the Gnosis, so perhaps there is a different reason that they do not work on the skin-spies.

Cnaiur is guessing that they do not have souls, but he doesn't really know. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

I can't find the spot, but I believe that there is a point in TTT where Aurang laments that the Consult no longer knows how to make more skin-spies.


Further devil advocate for skin-spies/souls: maybe the skin-spies don't have souls, maybe it is possible for a skin-spy to mimic a soul. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

That's true Harren. In Kelhuss convo with Moenghus he discusses that the skin-spies started to infiltrate the 3Cs a dozen years ago, which is when Moenghus would have first discovered him. Possibly Kelhuss was only talking about Fanim regions so they might have invaded the Mandate before then. view post


Worldhorn & Heron Spear posted 21 February 2006 in Author Q & AWorldhorn & Heron Spear by unJon, Auditor

Scott has answered that it is some sort of energy weapon but would not specify laser versus particle beam vs. something else.

The Void and the Outside are different. The Outside is where you go when you die. The Void is where you go if you get in a rocket ship. view post


do chorea last posted 21 February 2006 in Author Q & Ado chorea last by unJon, Auditor

And remember in Inrau's case, he had only been casting Cants for a minute or so before the Chorae touches him, so he his Mark is about as weak as it gets. The Chorae didn't kill him, just singed the part it touched to salt. He committed suicide by jumping off of the platform. view post


Trying to understand a previous statement posted 21 February 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionTrying to understand a previous statement by unJon, Auditor

I think that if you ask 10 philosophers that question that you'll get 10 differenct answers.

From the gesalt experience of my undergraduate major in philosophy I would say that the gist of it is:

A person, P, intends a consequence, C, to his action, A, if P believes that C could happen if A, and P does A under his own violition. view post


What philosopher suits you most? posted 21 February 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat philosopher suits you most? by unJon, Auditor

Where the heck is Hume???? He is the man and gets my vote. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

unSimas, we speculate, was not bound by Seswatha so could teach the Gnosis to someone, but it doesn't really matter. The Consult already knows the Gnosis. view post


What should we have anticipated? posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat should we have anticipated? by unJon, Auditor

The Consult liked Maithenet in that he declared a holy war on the Fanim which suited their purposes admirably. view post


Trying to understand a previous statement posted 22 February 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionTrying to understand a previous statement by unJon, Auditor

I just realize that I probably did you a disservice with an "unintentional" bait and switch between intentional and volitional.

Check out this somewhat illuminating (and somewhat confusing) website explaining intentionality as discussed by various philosophers and it does indeed mention the structure of God, though in a peculiarly Christian manner.

[url=http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intentionality-ancient/:20qdsh1z]Intentionality in Ancient Philosophy[/url:20qdsh1z] view post


The Heron Spear posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Heron Spear by unJon, Auditor

Well the "batteries" ran out of the other weapons tekne light weapons during the Inchoroi/nonMen war. But the Heron spear worked several (thousand?) years later during the First Apocalypse. So it doesn't seem like the Tekne "batteries" run out by just sitting around, and I don't think that the Heron spear was ever used more than twice as far as we know.

So in short, we don't have any reason to think that it's out of juice. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

Quote: "anor277":3h9fupgh
If you accept the aberration, how do we know that the Consult can never duplicate another Simas? How do we know in the next series of novels that Kellhus/Achamian/Nautzera etc. are not aberrant skin spies that turned off the principles?[/quote:3h9fupgh]

Huh? The Consult can't duplicate Simas because they can't even duplicate a regular skin-spy. The Consult no longer knows how to make them.

The rest of what you write, I don't understand at all. What is turn off the principles? We know that Akka and Kellhus are not skin-spies because they have/will have POVs. view post


Inchoroi Origins/Aims posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi Origins/Aims by unJon, Auditor

Quote: "Entropic_existence":1g2kehpw
The FF9 comparisons are interesting, but I think that the world Bakker has given us is much, much more sophisticated and metaphysically complex. After all Scott is a philosopher as well as an author, and his world is built upon some pretty heavy philosophical ideas.[/quote:1g2kehpw]

Actually FF games are also. I don't think that the comparison necessitates an insult.

And to be fair, while PON is epic fantasy, there are SF elements to the story (space ship, void, light weapons, etc.)

Think of Star Wars. It could reasonably be classified as SF, epic fantasy, and space opera. view post


What should we have anticipated? posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat should we have anticipated? by unJon, Auditor

Anor,

I don't really understand your point. So the rules of the game were not as Akka thought them. Why is this a weakness again? You just kind of assert that it is, but I don't get your reasoning.

Is it a weakness because it's a surprise? I kind of like my novels to not be so predictable or cliched.

Is it because Akka should be infallible? In the start of the novel, sorcery did not exist at all, or so Kellhus believed. Was it a weakness when the rules were changed Kellhus was proved wrong.

What is it about skin-spies that it's bad that they might be sorcerors? They are just creatures like any other. If you prick them, do they not bleed? view post


Trying to understand a previous statement posted 22 February 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionTrying to understand a previous statement by unJon, Auditor

I think it's a peculiarly Christian philosopher concept that can be traced to Augustine who merged Christian theology with Plato's ideas about Forms.

The idea is that man is created in God's image. And part of that image is the ability to act intentionally (towards some goal or aim). Augustine ascribed 'intention' as one of the three parts of human 'mind' and the part that corresponds with the Holy Spirit.

One later philosopher who relied on Augustine's ideas is Malebranche. If you are interested you can read about him [url=http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/malebranche-ideas/#3:2n7dkohq]here.[/url:2n7dkohq]

Let me know if this is helpful. view post


Inchoroi Origins/Aims posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi Origins/Aims by unJon, Auditor

I'm with you EE. view post


A soulful question [WARNING: TTT Spoilers Inside] posted 23 February 2006 in Author Q & AA soulful question [WARNING: TTT Spoilers Inside] by unJon, Auditor

There is at least a third creature with souls, Cu Roi, the Inchoroi themselves, or else damnation would not mean very much.

The "gain a soul" is interesting phrasing because it might imply that the skin-spy got his soul some time after it was "born." view post


Can Inchoroi reproduce posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCan Inchoroi reproduce by unJon, Auditor

This came up in another thread and I thought it should have its own topic.

The basic question is at what point the Inchoroi lost the ability to reproduce or if they ever had it.

For reproduction:

The two Inchoroi that are still around (Aurang and Aurax) are referred to with the masculine pronoun, and Aurax refers to Aurang as his brother. Also, Aurax seems to have male equipment as seen at the end of TWP (assuming that was his real body and not a Synthese).

So they do seem to have some gender.

Options for no reproduction:

1) They never could. This seems unlikely, and it is unclear how they would have evolved on some other planet.

2) By choice. Very possible and fits with the need to reduce souls in order to avoid damnation. They voluntarily decided to not create additional generations.

3) They lost all of the women. Fits thematically with the womb plague.

Against reproduction:

Once the womb plauge starts, you are facing an enemy (non-men) that are finite in number. Why not just hang back and reproduce for a few generations until you can overwhelm them with numbers? I think that this is a good piece of evidence implying that even back then the Inchoroi couldn't reproduce.

Did all of the women happen to die in the Ark crash? Possible if the women were located all in a specific section of the ship and the men were in a different section.

Did some of the male Inchoroi get together and test a prototype of the womb plague on their own women?

This last raises another interesting question about infighting among the Inchoroi. It is odd that only 2 are left and that they are brothers. If the non-men had them so close to total eradication, why didn't they just finish the job instead of covering up the Ark with glamour? Or were there more and were later killed off by the A bros.?

Anyway, seems like enough of a topic to discuss. Any thoughts? view post


The most important question about the Skin-Spy with a soul posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe most important question about the Skin-Spy with a soul by unJon, Auditor

*nodding at EE's logic*

*smirking because EE falls into the same trap by putting too much weight on Maithenet's opinion of how abberrant a skin spy with a soul is* view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by unJon, Auditor

Good catch, I vaguely remember that. I wish I recalled who said it because that person could be wrong.

Also not sure why Kellhus and Moenghus would shine brighter because it seems to me that it is their Intellect that is strong and their Heart is weak. Ergo Moenghus sucks at the Psukhe.

Or if true, maybe that is how the Cishaurim discovered the skin-spies and attacked the Scarlet Spires back in the day, and Kellhus is wrong when he attributes it to Moenghus noticing a different timbre to their voice. M never confirmed this in the conversation.

Or maybe, skin spies do have souls. But then it would seem that Maithenet would know this from his father...

Or maybe its an inconsistency that Bakker failed to catch.

Oh so many options. view post


Can Inchoroi reproduce posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCan Inchoroi reproduce by unJon, Auditor

IIRC, the avoiding damnation was prior to the Apocalypse. I think it says in the glossary that Saurawhatever Re-discovered the way to avoid damnation. I still think its what motivated the non-man war. view post


plucked out heart posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtplucked out heart by unJon, Auditor

My good deed for the day.

[url:sfgpvdqd]http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?t=845[/url:sfgpvdqd] view post


Can Inchoroi reproduce posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCan Inchoroi reproduce by unJon, Auditor

I just don't remember anything about when they discovered the damnation thing. If you remember something specific about it occuring after the non-man war let me know. Because it does make a nice justification for that war also. Otherwise, the Inchoroi just seem to want to wipe out the populations even before they knew about their damnation. view post


plucked out heart posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtplucked out heart by unJon, Auditor

Did you read the other thread? It was Serwe's heart, so I don't think anyone watching would think it was fresh. view post


Can Inchoroi reproduce posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCan Inchoroi reproduce by unJon, Auditor

You mean someone's possibly fallible POV thought it? <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

If someone stumbles onto a page reference for that info, let me know. Thanks. view post


Can Inchoroi reproduce posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCan Inchoroi reproduce by unJon, Auditor

EE, we must just be reading this differently.

Quote: &quot;TTT Glossary: Cuno-Inchoroi Wars&quot;:5adwpfeg
For five hundred years the Cunuroi and the Inchoroi waged a war of extermination, the Cunoroi to avenge their murdered wives and the eventual death of their race, and the Inchoroi for reasons they alone could fathom.[/quote:5adwpfeg]
I read the implication to be that the Inchoroi's reason is to save their own souls.

Quote: &quot;TTT Glossary: Apocalypse&quot;:5adwpfeg
The roots of the Apocalypse are many and deep. Mandate scholars (who, popular opinion to the contrary, are not the recognized authorities on the subject) argue that they are older than recorded history.[/quote:5adwpfeg]
I read this as the Mandate believing that the roots of the Apocalypse predate the Consult which is within recorded history.

Quote: &quot;TTT Glossary: Shaeonanra&quot;:5adwpfeg
The greatest prodigy of his age, Shaeonanra claimed to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery.[/quote:5adwpfeg]
Rediscovered not discovered. The wording in this entry is different than in the Mangaecca entry where it does indeed say discovered.

But I think that the weight of the evidence is in favor of the Inchoroi realizing their damnation well before the Consult and my guess is that it is the impetus for the womb plague and non-man war which is really like the Zeroth Apocalypse anyway. view post


plucked out heart posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtplucked out heart by unJon, Auditor

I think that the answer is that it was Serwe's heart but through slight of hand everyone watching thought it was his heart. The text does clearly say "He brandished Serwe's burning heart."

But your question is still applicable, because if the people thought it was Kellhus's heart but it was really a three day old heart... view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

I guess I just don't see why it renders our powers of prediction as readers to be meaningless. It's just another variable, e.g. there is a chance that that sorceror is a skin-spy and not a real sorceror. I don't see what the big deal is because that was always true for non-sorcerors anyway. view post


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