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Jamara Auditor | joined 21 March 2007 | 143 posts


Life and Death posted 28 March 2007 in Philosophy DiscussionLife and Death by Jamara, Auditor

Evolution = the alteration of a species or rise of a new species in order to best adapt to a new environment. Descent with modification. Accompanied by an accumulation of neutral mutations.

The mathematical postulate which catalogues genetic drift and the degree of freedom for change within a genetic population is the Chi-Square Formula.

The Chi Square Formula was derived from the Hardy-Weinberg Theorem which was derived from Mendel's First Two Laws of Heredity. The use of Mendel's First Two Laws of Heredity, the Hardy-Wienberg Theorem, and the Chi Square Formula are all used as the basis of predicting and testing the Theory of Natural Selection within a population to explain why and how Evolution occurs, because it does occur. And it does occur regardless of whether Natural Selection is correct or not.

The Molecular Clocks are calibrations of the rate of protein and amino acid alterations within genomes which has led to the ability to date the branching taxa along evolutionary lines. (Even when the fossil records are absent). This has given rise to the more precise taxanomical trees.

Molecualr biology has allowed us to trace and predict genetic mutations within a population. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Jamara, Auditor

Quote: "Harrol":1wj8tgnj
I wonder what effect the possession of Esmi will have on her children. Remember how she threatened a soldier with flaying and then had to overcome strong urges to see it happen. This I believe came from her possession from Aurang. What effect would that have on her kids?[/quote:1wj8tgnj]

Hmmm . . . She was pregnant at the time, was she not? That is a very interesting question. Part Dunyain with a little bit of Inchoroi presence in his/her soul. That would be scary! view post


Questions that haunt me after just reading TTT. posted 28 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions that haunt me after just reading TTT. by Jamara, Auditor

I think I have a good perspective on what may have happened between Mo and Cnaiur. Cnaiur killed Mo. He was driven to it. Cnaiur was most definitely mad by that time, and the one thread which never wavered amongst his thoughts was killing Mo. Never had that thought ever ceased. Over thirty years of harboring a hate. A hate for someone you loved. Now why did he cry out after killing Mo? Why did he not want him to leave again even though he killed him . . . Well I look at it as though even though you can love your wife and still want to care for her, you have to divorce her for things that she has done to you and made you do to yourself. Cnaiur felt that he had to kill the man he loved, but he still loved him. Cnaiur blamed Mo for making him kill him. It's not logical from our stand-point, but love is rarely logicall, especially to a mad man.

I think in the end Cnaiur had to kill Mo. It wasn't really even a choice at that point. It was the sole drive of all his motives. He was merely following the path which had been forged by a deranged mind. But at the same time Mo had reaffirmed their 'love' at the last moment. Rekindled that buried ember from Cnaiur's adolescence. Cnaiur's emotions were in an upheaval, and even as he killed, he wanted to cherish and hold. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 28 March 2007 in Author Q & AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

I won't say that it's impossible. Yes it is possible. Then again I don't know what the requirements for being a Prophet are.

I also think that it is equally possible that he still holds alterior motives, like the speculation that he may want to become something like the No-God or even reach for apotheosis himself.

But regardless, I think that he believes that he is a Prophet. That he is the Harbinger and that he is the Saviour many want him to be. History will name him a prophet regardless of it's actual validity. Others believe him a prophet, and he believes himself a prophet, and all that he does from here on out will be the works of a prophet (or potentially the greatest monster of men . . . we'll have to RAFO). view post


inrau posted 28 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes Beforeinrau by Jamara, Auditor

I don't think he discovered anything about the Shriah. I think he was having conflicting emotions and went to a shrine to pray and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when he came across the Synthese and had to be killed for what he saw.

Although the Consult may have orchestrated his death in order to motivate Achamian into leaving Sumna and then following him, though I'm not too sure how plausible this is. We do know that Esmenet was visited shortly after Achamian's departure and was used as a hound to follow Achamian. So there must have already been some interest in Achamian by the Consult (though whether it was just because he was of the Mandate and trying to spy on a man who apparently could find their skin spies, or not is up for question). view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 28 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Jamara, Auditor

I think that Kellhus is pretty damn sure of Saubon's loyalty to him almost from the very beginning. That is why he kind of goes out on a limb with his 'prophecy' and the thing with the Shrial knights.

(Note the following is a Spoiler for TWP and TTT . . . sorry but I need them to back up my point . . . so don't read on if you haven't finished either of those books, this thread isn't worth ruining the reading experience).




























I think this is also why he does not force Saubon to leave Caraskand and follow with the rest of the Holy War to Shimeh. Why would Kellhus allow this dissension of refusing to follow, probably because he was sure enough in Saubon that Saubon would feel shame and eventually show up, and probably as a great reserve unit (which he does). view post


Evolution vs Creation posted 28 March 2007 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by Jamara, Auditor

Quote: "Randal":29zh8j0l
So to me, trial and error presupposes a direction in evolution, which there is. Species progress towards more advanced forms, more specialised ones.[/quote:29zh8j0l]

Okay, in response I must first state that I am assuming that you are following Darwinian Evolution and not Lamarckian. If I am wrong in my assumption, then I don't think my argument is valid.

I'll give you 'more specialised forms', because that's what a divergent species is. A sub-species which has become specialized enough (and genetically removed enough) as to distinguished it from its parent species. But not 'more advanced forms'. Darwin was all about best suited for survival. That does not mean more advanced, just better suited for surviving in the current ecosystem. An african elephant isn't more advanced than a woolly mammoth, just better suited to survive in a non-Ice Age era (I'm just comparing two similar species, the Mammoth was actually hunted to extinction by early man).

"presupposes a direction in evolution" - that's pretty slippery language. Presupposes means to assume knowledge beforehand, i.e. designing for what will be needed. Natural Selection is just the opposite. Natural Selection is a reactionary process of a species to deal with a change. An elephant doesn't become hairy because an ice age is coming, it just happens that the more hairy elephants don't have to expend as much energy to maintain body heat as the less hairy ones, and thus they can spend more time and energy towards mating and passing on their genes and their genes eventually dominating the species. When the climate gets warmer again, those less hairy elephants will not be expending as much energy maintaining unnecessary coats of hair and thus will have more energy to devote towards mating.

Specialization of forms usually occurs when there are niches to be filled within an ecosystem. Species begin diverging usually into sub-species and then some further into new species when there are resources not being taken advantage of by another species, usually because of extinctions or migrations due to changes in the environment. view post


Evolution vs Creation posted 29 March 2007 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by Jamara, Auditor

Quote: "anor277":157khcyv

(Just on this point I remember an old joke from 1st year biology, when we were asked "what are the benefits to having a complete digestive tract, i.e. mouth and anus?" The answer, so that you can two fixations.)[/quote:157khcyv]

I thought it was so you could keep drinking your beer while breaking the seal <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

So, anyway, Randal. Now we're back on same footing. I'll agree that some organisms are more advanced now than previous, but I would argue that the only reason for this is because of great catastrophes or extreme changes. The first being when fish came onto land. This led to the rise of lifeforms which required the benefit of skin which could retain moisture, rather than just absorbing it from the water. Then there was the comet which caused the pandemic extinction of the dinosaurs. From that two other forms of life arose, both warm-blooded. Birds from dinosaurs with specialized scales to provide warmth and later flight, and the rise of mammals. Those are the only two instances of animals becoming more &quot;advanced&quot; in nature. I would argue that no mammal is more &quot;advanced&quot; than any other, merely more specialized. If you could elaborate on how a sabre-tooth tiger is more advanced than a current day tiger I would be intrigued. Sincerely. (for argument sake I am removing humans from this argument due to our rise of sentience which I would place as our third great advancement in animal life).

I will also give you that there are other &quot;advancements&quot; which have come along, but those were mostly due to fortuitous mutations, such as colour vision, though I don't see that as more advanced than a snakes ability to &quot;smell&quot; infrared. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

I can't recall exactly, but were any of these references from Kellhus's POV from after the Circumfixion? view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 29 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Jamara, Auditor

TFT Spoiler*****************************************************


Warrior-Poet, your theory would hold with Cnaiur's idea that the entire thing was a set-up to take him out of the picture. It is entirely probable (inane to think otherwise) that Kellhus knew the Ikurei had a pact with the Fanim. The Fanim would have to play their hand to free Conphas. This would likely lead to Conphas confrunting the Holy War at Shimeh. So yes, I could see Saubon and Kellhus formulating this plot, especially since Saubon was one of his loyal followers from the beginning.
Very acute! Props to Man view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

At first I read his cries to the sky exactly as you did, but then I went back and thought that he might not be speaking of the Holy War, but of all men. He saw the true nature, or a least a glimpse of understanding, of God. Via the Thousandfold Thought. He knows something very, Very important about the nature of reality. And yes he had to tell his followers what they needed to hear to get them to Shimeh so that he could confront Mo, but his motivations concerning Mo seem to have changed. And this is all following the Circumfixion.

And then his motivation for killing Mo. Many on this board have speculated that Kellhus reasons that the Dunyain, or at least Moenghus, will come to the same conclusion as the Consult/Inchoroi and try to close the Outside via the Second Apocalypse because the Outside will be an unaccountable variable which must be removed. But Kellhus says that when Moenghus becomes a &quot;true believer he will know his damnation&quot;. It is his damnation, and probably the Dunyain's that will make them the new Consult, not some unaccountable variable. To me this shows that Kellhus has become a believer. He has gone beyond the Logos. The Logos is just a tool for him now. He is a holy man. Or at least a zealot.

Some vision of the Outside has altered his perceptions. He is more than Dunyain. He is Dunyain whose got religion. The power of belief many times outways that of logic. Logic can make one do horrible things on a small scale, religion can make one do atroticouse things on a genocidal scale. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

Kellhus never once referred to himself as a prophet prior to the circumfixion. He was too smart for that. That was one of the points raised during his trial. They named him a false prophet, yet he never once claimed to be a prophet. He let others make that claim, not himself. Plausible deniability. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

a'ight, you got a point there. But I still think it's something larger than that. view post


Avatar posted 29 March 2007 in Off-Topic DiscussionAvatar by Jamara, Auditor

Does anyone else out there think that this cartoon is damn cool? The animation is great, the overall theme cliche yet brilliant in its simplicity, and the method of using 'magic' just plain cool? It blew me away. view post


Life and Death posted 29 March 2007 in Philosophy DiscussionLife and Death by Jamara, Auditor

Sorry, sorry. I'll keep anymore rants to the new thread in this forum. I told you I get passionate about this. But . . . no, no, behave . . . <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> view post


Avatar posted 29 March 2007 in Off-Topic DiscussionAvatar by Jamara, Auditor

Which kind of makes it cool. I can watch it with my nephew and yet still enjoy it. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

&quot;You know, I've heard a lot about Kellhus coming to terms with his morality. The only thing that shows him gaining morality is when he told Esmenet he truly loved her. But I don't buy the morality discussion. I don't think that going from Dunyain to the Circumfixion (admittedly he did have a break down while Circumfixed) to the Thousand Fold Thought would lead him down the lesser path of human morality,&quot;

This was what I was originally going to post, but when I went back and read it, it got me to thinking. Who have had the TFT? Only Moenghus and Kellhus. As I stated above, Kellhus had a break down during the circumfixion. His Logos failed him and his Dunyain training faltered, and he cried out. Moenghus must have had such a breakdown of his own following his entering the Cishaurim and realizing that the Logos had failed him and he had reached a dead end.

There is something here but I can't see it just now. view post


Avatar posted 29 March 2007 in Off-Topic DiscussionAvatar by Jamara, Auditor

I love the Uncle. He is that wise figure who will throw down only if he really has to. Which I think is a great model for children to see. And I am greatly amused by the creative beastiary of the universe. A platypus bear . . . love it! view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

Buckethead, my latter post kind of changes my former. Like I said, only he and Moenghus know the TFT. I really don't think we've seen exactly what that is. If it truely is real or something from two broken Dunyain. I'm not sure anymore.

At this point I am considering the possibility that he is as mad as Cnaiur.

As for foreseeing Serwe's death. I'm not sure if that's true. He definintely foresaw something to the degree of his circumfixion, and it was a gamble in order to cement his control over the Holy War, but I don't think he was conditioned enough to be strapped to a deceased lover for such a length. And even he was surprised by his breaking. I forget where he states it, by the impression was definitely left that even he was surprised at how much he was broken by the circumfixion.

And following that low point, he had the TFT. Moenghus didn't receive the TFT until after he had reached his dead end. Something that must have broke his Dunyain conviction to the Logos. Mo failed where he thought he was gaining limitless power. In fact he was halted in his tracks. What a blow that must of been to his ego.

So now I cotemplate whether Kellhus's proclamations to the sky were not the schizophrenic howls of a madman, and not some greater symbolic gesture. Did he truly believe that he conversed with the gods? Was it guilt, shame, or a secret burden he was railing against? I'm really not sure. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

I am wondering what will be Kellhus's state of mind during the Aspect Emperor.

By the end of the Prince of Nothing he has eliminated all of his opposing factors, including his own father and he whom taught him war. The only exception is Achamian whom he has said will kneel before him when next they meet. Many may read this as Kellhus saying what was expected of him to say in front of his court, but we know that Achamian has survived the next twenty years (since he's in the next series).

At the opening of Aspect Emperor we will see Kellhus in control of the entire Three Seas, and leading a campaign north against Golgoterrath. He leads all. He has mastered a level of Gnosis beyond the Mandate School. He is a prophet in the eyes of the land.

And his sons are &quot;murderous&quot;. Possibly a reflection of the father.

Is Kellhus a meglomaniac? He believes that he is more than Dunyain. He is Dunyain, master of the Gnosis, a Holy Prophet, and the Harbinger of the Second Apocalypse. Has his power consumed him? view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

It's going to takt me awhile, considering I just finished them, but I am very much looking forward to rereading this series just to see things that I might have missed. I don't even remember that entry. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Evolution vs Creation posted 29 March 2007 in Philosophy DiscussionEvolution vs Creation by Jamara, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Randal&quot;:kfober6e
Similarly, I was under the impression that the dinosaurs were more advanced than earlier species of lizard, for example having more efficient legs directly under the body and possibly being warm-blooded. Does having more efficient legs count as being more advanced?[/quote:kfober6e]

I wouldn't say more advanced, merely better suited for competition. Having legs directly beneath them would allow them to capture prey or flee predators more readily than prior species. Thus they would survive where others were eaten or starved. Earlier species were out-competed for resources. But I wouldn't say more advanced, because two dinosaurs have survived, and nearly unchanged (relative to the millions of years that have passed), and they would be the alligator/crocodile family and the tortoise family. Both families still maintain legs to the sides rather than legs directly beneath them. But they were specialized and held advantageous characterisitcs which allowed them to survive until present day.

As far as those first mammals which thrived following the dinosaur extinction, I wouldn't say they were less advanced than current day mammals, I'd rather say they were less specialized. But evolution through specialization took a dramatic leap for them following the comet. Those rodent like early mammals were in a bottleneck effect. Basically they were few, because they could not compete as well as their dinosaur rivals, but suddenly there were very, very few dinosaurs. All those niches for resource competition opened up, and from this filling of most of the niches, specialization began to occur. Mammals no longer had to compete with dinosaurs, but rather with one another. That is when negligable differences in their genomes began to take much larger roles, and natural selection amongst mammals became more prevalent.

Now, there are certain species which have evolved into a species which we might consider more advanced (i.e. primates with colour vision), but that just makes them better competitors for resources in certain circumstances. A gorilla thrown onto the african plains would not be able to compete as well as a lion, even though the lion has no colour vision. In that case, colour vision may even be a hindrance, not an advantage. So saying a species is more advanced than its ancestors is very relative. How well would an elephant have survived during the time of the dinosaurs? They would have been a feast for the likes of raptors and T-Rex, whereas the tiny rodents of the time were easily hidden and could flee predators much more easily. In this case I'd say the rodent is best suited to survive, or advanced above the elephant. view post


Life and Death posted 29 March 2007 in Philosophy DiscussionLife and Death by Jamara, Auditor

Thanks Zarathinius, that was what my original point kind of was. I feel that because of our sentience, we want there to be a larger purpose, and all these things we do are kind of in search of that prupose. We are either searching for our purpose, or creating things to give us purpose.

And I admit that there ultimately could be a true purpose out there, but for this mere mortal it eludes me. view post


OK, this is stupid, but... posted 29 March 2007 in Off-Topic DiscussionOK, this is stupid, but... by Jamara, Auditor

That they do. view post


The Bonfire posted 29 March 2007 in Literature DiscussionThe Bonfire by Jamara, Auditor

The Magic of Recluce. Good ideas but it made my brain hurt trying to read it.


*WHOOSH*

That did feel good. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

I do not think it too plausible that prior to Moenghus's dream contact with the Dunyain, that they would be conditioning a prodigy child like Kellhus, i.e. conditioning him against the knowledge of sorcery actually existing. Sorcery seems very logical to me, and the better the Dunyain understood it the better for them and their Logos.

I really don't think that the Dunyain know about sorcery, or at least have been conditioned over the centuries to not believe in it. Although, at the same time I find it very hard to believe that they don't know about it. How could they forget something like sorcery, or even the Consult, when the North lay in such a waste and they live in a fortress which they acquired at the end of the First Apocalypse. Perhaps you are right Darkness. Perhaps the Dunyain do possess some greater power of insight, or whatever it is, that led them to condition Kellhus in certain matters. We do know that Moenghus was sent out into the world to &quot;scout&quot; just prior to Kellhus's adolescence and his higher degrees of training. Why would the Dunyain want to scout the outside world? If this were a common practice, then sorcery would not have been hidden from them. If this is not a common practice, then why did they send Moenghus out, unless they saw something in his and Kellhus's future? Did the Dunyain condition the ground for Moenghus just as he in turn conditioned it for Kellhus? view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 29 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Jamara, Auditor

Quote: &quot;wmdragon&quot;:1nowhap6
I guess I didnt understand that Saubon was so willing to buy the Warrior-Prophet act so early in the story, to the point of going along with something that didnt play on his desires, and in fact was rather appaling, if not sacrilegious.
[/quote:1nowhap6]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Saubon was motivated by the want of glory. He wanted to be the first of the Holy War to enter Fanim lands and meet the enemy, and he was merely looking for justification from any source he could get it from. Kellhus was already becoming respected at this point, so he asked him, probably asking a select few others, and when he found his permission/justification, he took it and entered into Fanim lands.

Kellhus merely saw him as a tool to hurt the Shrial Knights. And he used him as thus. He told Saubo what he needed to hear in order to motivate him. I don't really know how Saubon felt about punishing the Shrial Knights.

But when the tides looked most grim for Saubon, the Cishaurim showing up, I think that he utterly believed that he must sacrifice the Shrial Knights to survive. He MUST punish them, just as Kellhus had said. And when he orders this punishment, and the assault succeeds, Saubon is left a true believer of Kellhus. Kellhus told him to enter Fanim territory and he would be victorious (and he was). Kellhus told him he had to punish the Shrial Knights (which he felt, in the end, he had to), and it was through this punishment that his victory was won. Just as Kellhus had predicted.

All of this cemented Saubon as a loyaltist to Kellhus. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

Wow, thanks for the clarification.

But I do not think sorcery goes against the Logos. I think the source of sorcery does however. That fact that a man can hurl a spear or hurl a firebolt has the same cause and effect scenarios. But from where do they draw this power? That would be the troubling question for the Dunyain. It has been stated that they do not believe in the Outside. Sorcery tells them that it is real, and probably can't be comprehended. Though the TFT may be just that, the comprehension of the Outside.

Which brings us back to Kellhus. Moenghus might have comprehended the Outside, but could not manipulate it due to becoming Cishaurim. He was left impotent with his knowledge. But Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis, the Abstract, as well as begun comprehending the nature of the Outside. Could he be mad with power by the start of the Aspect Emperor? view post


The Meaning of Life posted 30 March 2007 in Philosophy DiscussionThe Meaning of Life by Jamara, Auditor

Buckethead, I wasn't going to nit-pick that point, but thank you. Many, many people say &quot;will destroy the world&quot; when what they really mean is &quot;destroy humanity&quot;. I think this might even be considered a meme: the idea that man (or at least civilization) is the world. It is so ingrained within civilization that many don't even understand the depth of what they are saying. view post


Logos is theft posted 30 March 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Jamara, Auditor

I kind of view the Dunyain like Vulcans. The Logos is logic. They follow the teachings of logic and suppress thier own emotions in order to advance the ultimate goal of creating a self-moving soul. view post


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