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Ulyaoth Commoner | joined 15 January 2007 | 9 posts


For people ReReading posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtFor people ReReading by Ulyaoth, Commoner

Since there is no particular thread that coincides with what I desire to state, I'll just use this one to post a nagging assumption in my mind. That assumption being that Moengus did not die; at least immediately. I'm fully willing to accept that this presumption is theoretically preposterous and impractical, but in the absence of concrete information, and given the innate ambiguity of Mr. Bakker's narrative (particularly in the scenes I'm about to reference), any semi-warranted speculation should be at least considered until disproven.

There have been very specific descriptions of sorcerer's turning to salt throughout the book, and Moengus' "death" did in no manner coincide with them. When a sorcerer bearing the full signs of the mark is struck, his salting is exact, and immediate. Not so for Moengus; judging by the way his eyes flared, and the fact that he jerked and spasmed, I have reason to believe he not only lived after Cnaiur touched him the chorae, but was able to cast a spell. Before continuing, for the sake of context, I would just like to juxtapose Inrau's reaction to being touched by the chorae, and the fact that he not only had most of the same physical responses, but that he salted fairly gradually.

It is canon that Moengus did not have full capacity for The Water; it is also known that when you lack the water, that sorcery beyond your capability is physically taxing - perhaps even fatal - as evidenced by his description of the summons to Kellhus from his position to Ishual. Given these factors, Moengus would have little - if any - reason to practice sorcery on any wide spread scale, and since he presumably has the power of an underling, he would not need to use his sorcery for battles (avoiding them would be more practical), and considering that he is Dunyain, he would also have no need to practice the sorceries taught to him, he need only be told how it's done. Assuming he hadn't practiced sorcery often, the effects the chorae had on him would make some manner of sense; of course the effects of The Onta couldn't be perceivable to Kellhus as Moengus is Cishaurim, but I would be willing to speculate that Moengus was not deeply bruised. These factors would give Moengus a minor amount of time to live, the sorcery I'm about to describe would see him from Kyudea to the Meneanor.

In the Darkness That Comes Before in the Cishaurim assault on Sasheoka as described through Eleazarus, whether it was metaphorical or not, I explicitly remember the text stating that the Cishaurim merely "flickered into existence" which suggests that they, perhaps have the capacity for transposing. And even if they don't have it innately, I think the Cant of Calling which Kellhus used to do so is semi-universal in sorcery, if Moengus used a similar variant of either of these two cants as Cnaiur rubbed his cheek with a chorae, he could very easily be outside, and near the Meneanor as the room darkness with Cnaiur under the assumption that he is dead, which coincides with a certain scene towards the end of the chapter that concludes the war in Shimeh.

It depicts a boy, who, before meeting with who I would assume to be Aurang turns to look at a dead sorcerer. Why would this facet of information be randomly pointed out? Wonder if, by some choice and fortuitous circumstance Aurang found Moengus near the Meneanor after he had transported what remained of his body there, and noted how he looked like a bald Kellhus... wonder if Moengus revealed the location of Ishual to him hoping that Aurang could find his brothers and use them to continue the goal to seal the world shut...wonder if that is the secret Aurang jokingly refers to in what I perceived to be a half-giddy manner. Just a thought. view post


Mekeritrig posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

I keep kicking myself everytime I read the following quote by anor, or half quote as I've edited it a bit, about Mekeritrig's turning.


Alas, the quote your referring to was originally inferred by Kellhus. During the meeting with Moengus. As I recall, Kellhus gave a passing description of the Consult's ranking members as we know them, and in that passage it has a quote that coincides with what Anor stated...something along the lines of "How Aurang and Aurax perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig." Which is where the quote, and the presumption of coercion lies.

While Achamian is not being hunted by Kellhus's agents, as a wizard he will, post-end of TTT, be desperately avoiding persecution at the hands of the Schools or the Thousand Temples.


What schools? The Cishaurim are extinct, and the Imperial Saik, and the Scarlet Spires have been bled to the point of endangerment. Even if they were able to go on raiding parties in 5-8 a time (disasterous numbers considering their respective sizes) it's a technically superior Gnostic sorcerer they are hunting. I doubt any of the current schools will risk it; including the Mandate who is likely to busy sizing up their newly discovered Harbringer to sound or even deal with the departure of one of their members.

Also, you forget that Maithanet controls the Thousand Temples, and Kellhus controls Maithanet. If the order is given not to hunt Achamian by Kellhus, then they won't. It's not in his intents to kill him, when he said "The next time you come before me you will kneel," he spoke in an absolute, not a threat.

Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult.


He is not "alone" per se, I would imagine much of the Quorum will be just as adamant in getting Kellhus to act as Achamian was; if not more so, seeing as how Achamian was disenfranchised with the beliefs of his school, whereas Nautzera was a fanatic.

Also, we have take into consideration the fact that Aspect Emperor takes place 20 years in the future. Sranc will have become even more innumerable than they are now, and they may yet develop the boldness to try and strike the Three Seas instead of confining their raids to the north. If this occurs, there will be public outcry; and conspiracies that the Second Apocalypse is beginning. The Skin Spies are no longer covert knowledge, I'm fairly sure they ALL know of them, or have heard rumor of them from those that have returned from Kian. In order to quell this, whether he wants to or not (a subject worthy of debate, I think) the Aspect Emperor will have to act.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the Mandate; reveling in their newfound reputation had started speaking again of the Second Apocalypse with the zeal of the vindicated and assured. If the people are more apt to listen to them, I'd imagine public opinion may force Kellhus's hand; especially if they believe a ruler is being complacent at a time when their very lives are being threatened.

Therefore, his goal bared and not entirely trusting Kellhus's propositions of war against the Consult, where else can Achamian turn but towards refuge in the north?


The west, specifically. The north is dangerous, he could run into the Sranc, or the Consult if he decided to go there, and seeing as how Ishterbinth is slightly north of Ishual (where Sranc have been shown to go), and also seeing as how I'd imagine that Ishterbinth is hidden from human eyes and knowledge (we've never seen a human mention this fortress, to my knowledge) I doubt he'd think to turn there first.

Especially with the added incentive of studying and elaborating with the original practioners of the Gnosis, the Nonmen; a race of peoples, according to Mr. Bakker, labouring fanatically in their crafts for their very minds and lives.


I would be interested in seeing Achamian learn witchcraft more than added variants of the Gnosis. Witchcraft carries the benefits of being a largely arcane and hidden sorcery in the Three Seas, and if they have other capabilities that usurp things like Anagogic Colors, and Uroborian Circles like the Wathi Doll, then learning their mode of sorcery could prove beneficial when combined with what he has already mastered.

In my opinion, the only place in the intervening years between TTT and the first book of The Aspect-Emperor for Achamian to gain power and allies, would be Ishterebinth.


Assuming Achamian even knows where Ishterebinth is (which I highly doubt) what leads you to believe that the Non-Men would be apt to throw open their gates to a human? view post


Is Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlwind. posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlwind. by Ulyaoth, Commoner

I don't think we can assume Achamian's last dream was of the same order as his others. When the dream was had, everything he had faith in, everything he believed in, had been overturned, and his emotions, and heart was being shaped into stone. The dreams were, I would actually assume, becoming his own, and since dreams are caricatures of suppressed thoughts, it would only make sense that the two most pressing issues in his mind (the Apocalypse, and Kellhus) would merge.

But that's beside the point. There's a certain tidbit of information that's always stood out in my mind, and that's the fact that it's Cnaiur's narrative, not Kellhus's that coincides with the given traits of the No-God he's assumed. There's something interesting about his word usage, and thoughts. The descriptions of madness, and hints of a demonic presence perhaps possessing him, the constant "I'm forgetting somethings;" phrases like "Again the Whirlwind," and the inner monologue when he looked at Moengus "What do you see?" he's also been described as having a void, amognst many other ponderous anecdotes that make me wonder. This could, of course be coincidental, but it's not entirely negligible. When I regain the books, I'd be more than happy to hunt for said occurrences and note them for the sake of reference.

But this doesn't entirely rule out Kellhus, of course. We don't know how honest he was being in his discourse with Moengus (where it was hinted he had reason to deceive him), but if he didn't then the No-God speaks to him directly and regularly, and he didn't merely have a single vision of his presence, which we glimpsed in the Warrior-Prophet. This would be interesting, and it would show more heightened signs of sentience in respect to the No-God. view post


For people ReReading posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtFor people ReReading by Ulyaoth, Commoner

Despite the ambiguity in Mr. Bakker's writing, even in your so-called definitive definitions of salting


I did not define my descriptions as definitive. But do recall the ulterior descriptions of the salted sorcerers; it was almost always described as an eruption into a pillar of salt. Always. The only exception that stands out in my mind is Inrau, who for reasons I previously outlined did not salt immediately, but instead, did so gradually (the case I made for Moengus.) If this is the consistent description, why does Moengus contradict it so? He not only had time to jerk and convulse, but he had time for white light to come from his eyes (a sign that has been previously associated in the book as someone who is in the midst of performing a cant.) I could, of course be incorrect, but in order for this to be definitively so, there would have to be another description of someone whose eyes did the same thing Moengus's did, and according to my recollection, there is no such example.

Furthermore, aside from the doubt the above alone instills, Moënghus's salted form is described twice by Mr. Bakker post-salting.


I would have thought much the same if it weren't for these two sentences.

But his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.


As well as:

"Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form.


Both of these quotes allude to Moengus' body gradually disappearing. His clothes could be taken as a surrogate for a corpse, especially given Cnaiur's current emotional state. And when throughout the entirety of the Prince of Nothing has a sorcerer been described as "burning" or having any light after being touched with a Chorae? Never to my knowledge. And if his body is gradually transposing...would light not cover his frame?

But again, I'm very open to the highly probable clause of fallibility on my end. Despite this, there's still a case that can be made for Moengus living long enough to give the information, though, and for the sake of discussion, I think it would be worth it to continue until absolution in fact can assist in the subsequent removal of doubt. Cases where the above have occurred in Chorae deaths could offer this. view post


Mekeritrig posted 16 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

It, however upon reading again, does make me a little sceptical of Kellhus's inferring ability and my own speculation of Mekeritrig as captor of Aurang and Aurax.


I'm certain the inference garnered and articulated by Kellhus was initiated through Achamian's stories, which may have led him to these conclusions. If this is the case, it is very likely that his descriptions are correct.

I regret again my inability to point you in the direction of my The Aspect-Emperor post. You might have benefitted from it and I probably wouldn't be having to write these words once again.


There's no need to. I've read it before; if it's the post I'm thinking of where you listed the current factions and the role you think they'll play or some such. In this post, you stated that you did not know Proyas' fathers name, as I recall. It's Eukernas II, if memory serves. But I digress. There's no need to reference the post. I knew the information within it then, and I know much of the information you state now, whatever disagreements may arrive from the conclusions reached.

The Cishaurim, Mandate, Imperial Saik, and Scarlet Spires are hardly the culmination of sorcerous power in the Three Seas. TTT Glossary mentions the Circle of Nibel, which is one of the supposed Major Schools in the Three Seas and an entirely unmentioned School throughout the books. Even despite the facts that this implies more unheard of sorcerous factions, and that the Circle of Nibel and the Mysunsai were entirely undamaged in the First Holy War, aside from Skaleteas, I highly doubt the Mandate or the Scarlet Spires will cease hunting Achamian on Kellhus's say-so.


Several things to cover in this post. I did neglect the Circle of Nibel, I had somewhat forgotten them, but outside of the name, they have nothing to factor into any given speculations due to sparse information. The Myusunai I did intentionally neglect; they're anagogic sorcerers...by what logic would they hunt a superior sorcerer and risk valuable, trained members of their school when their affairs lie not with hunting other sorcerers, but with accruing additional profit? They're mercenaries. The only situation I can see them hunting Achamian is if they were asked.

Furthermore, I reference Achamian's own future words in my assessment. When he was writing the Compendium of the Holy War his fear wasn't from being caught by other sorcerers; it was heresy...he didn't reveal the knowledge he garnered of Kellhus because that, much more so than being hunted would have assured death. I imagine a man running from pursuers would have neither the time or desire to actually write a book...

Despite that there are continual claims throughout TTT that the old ways are dead and that there is this new undeniable vulnerability and honesty in the Warrior-Prophet's presence, as Achamian states it collapses into old habits and bigotry's the moment he leaves.


The old ways being dead is another reason why I think Achamian will not be hunted. Also, Achamian doesn't state that it collapses into old habits and bigotry's, I only recall there being an uproar as he renounced his school, and their Warrior-Prophet, and Prophet-Consort, an act of disrespectful sedition. And likely the sole cause of their rousing.

This implies to myself and, I think, Achamian that Kellhus's new world order is not as stable nor honest as it appears.


Which is not to say that in 20...10, or 5 years this will be case.

They do not come though with the intention of servitude.


Of course not. But then, what person that now serves Kellhus did? Part of the reason for Kellhus's moving against Shimeh was because he wanted to treat with the Quorum as equals, and if they had no part in what occurred, they would have no basis in thinking that what has been wrought was of their manufacture. They have an Aspect-Emperor who holds in his hand the collective might of the Three Seas, with the force of his positioning, and his undeniable charisma, the Mandate will be made tools soon enough. There's no reason not to expect otherwise.

Once again, I'll reiterate; the Mandate will most likely be among the foremost of Achamian's pursuers, based on the facts that Kellhus's new total servitude and honesty system is false as well as that the Mandate Quorum still think themselves Kellhus's master.


False on his end, perhaps. Not the end of his servants, who do, indeed authentically adore and revere his presence.

Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult.


I agree that Achamian is alone, for now. I don't, however, think he is alone in focusing on the Consult; which I articulated in my previous post.

The rest of your rebuttals are almost sheer idiocy.


On what merits?

By refuge in the north, I specifically meant Ishterebinth, and not as you've seem to imply a safe geological zone as the west might be.


I know that...

What I was saying - and I thought I said this clearly - was that going to the West (which would invariably imply Zeum) would be a more logical decision than going to the north. Ishterebinth by my memory is obscenely close to Golgotterath, and it's beyond Atrithau not to mention being behind an entire mountain range. Assuming Achamian knows about it (which I have expressed doubts over) it would be a near fatal journey to attempt to find it; especially when taking into consideration that Non-Men friendly to the Consult, as well as Sranc roam the lands to the north at leisure...

Also, the sole purpose for Achamian's continued education of the Gnosis, is that not only will the Mangaecca have elaborated severely on it themselves, no other sorcery of the Three Seas or elsewhere can compete with the Gnosis.


No other sorcery can compete with the Gnosis. But Achamian can't compete with every sorcerer. He has superior sorcerers amongst the Non-Men, the Mangaecca, and the Consult's ranking members to worry about. These sorcerers have had far, far, far, far more than a mere 20 years to master it; they've had millennia. No matter what Achamian learns, he'll never, ever match up to these sorcerers by himself. It would make more sense to me to delve into a branch of sorcery that's untouched by knowledge and combine that with the rudiments of the Gnosis he knows than it would be to go on a futile quest in mastering the Gnosis.

If he's going to confront superior sorcerers; even if this includes Kellhus, and his sons, if he wants to stand a chance, he's going to have to attack them in ways that are beyond their comprehension or expectations. This is why I considered Witchcraft; judging from the Wathi Doll, it seems be an unorthodox sorcery, which is why it would be effective against his superiors.

Finally, I again reiterate my wish that you read or reread TTT Glossary before your continued speculation on The Aspect-Emperor, as the Wathi Doll is the only artifact, that you've named, of witchcraft.


And I suggest that you read the underlying message of my post before seeking to correct me. I didn't bring up the Agonic Collar and the Uroborian circles as objects of Witchcraft, I brought them up as objects that could be negated by Witchcraft, as evidenced by Achamian's escape from Iothiah. This could be a very potentially useful fact, and one that I'm sure Achamian would consider in the 20 years of his travel. view post


Who was Kellus talking to? posted 16 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWho was Kellus talking to? by Ulyaoth, Commoner

I think it is probable to rule out the No-God. In Kellhus' monologue he states that they "listen to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard, they trust to you." The Three Seas does not trust the No-God, as far as I know, which would imply that he converses with one they do serve. I've always been curious as to the hierarchy of the Gods themselves, and I've wondered as to whether or not the "God-That-Is-Solitary" is the true and ruling God whereas the others are contrivances or underlings to this one. But I digress. Whomever Kellhus is speaking to is decidedly not the No-God, the thing depicted in this scene of Kellhus's monologue was something that obviously had a sense of morality, as Kellhus felt he had to justify his actions to him/her/it. view post


Mekeritrig posted 17 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

Alas, don't take my responses or disagreements I may have towards your postings as any antagonistic exercise, I'm merely voicing what I see as conclusions that I don't so much have ought with as I could see ulterior perspectives worth viewing or considering. It's impossible to speak in absolution in relation to a future novel when we have such a limited basis to go by. We can't say for certainty what can happen, we can merely speculate. And in going through each scenario, and scrutinizing, and removing the most implausible theories, we move towards reaching a common goal, which is basically beating Aspect-Emperor to release in terms of what may come next.

Also, you have to keep in mind that you're one of the 4-5 active posters remaining, it doesn't make sense drudging up arguments from several months to a year ago from posters who may no longer frequent these forums. If I focus my discussion towards you, it's only because you're the most apt person to respond, and also because you're the most vocal of those remaining. It's nothing personal at all, it's just more logical in my mind that progressive discussion can be made through the removal of points, theories, stories and facts through the glorious medium of conversation, and even debate. The induction of facts does more to assist this than the insulting of character or argument, in my opinion.

In saying that, I'm semi-pressed for time, and will post a more thorough response at slightly latter date (hopefully tonight) and I just want to respond to this:

When has Achamian ever, through words, actions, or thoughts, implied that Zeüm would be a place that he would even think to go for refuge?


Around the same amount of times he's implied through words, actions and thoughts that he wanted to take refuge in Ishterebinth...

We have to keep in mind that prior to him actually renouncing Kellhus, his school, and his wife (maybe further back to Xinemus' death) there was no hint of a desire for defection. He was fully willing and submissive to the fact that he would, indeed act as Kellhus's teacher, bodyguard, and mentor. There was absolutely no inner monologue to suggest where he would go, what he would do, or how he would do it in the case of defection, which is why all options are plausible in the context of a such a lacking foundation of knowledge. Desperation can drive men far, and I don't find it logical that it would drive them far enough to a place where he would become more desperate, such as the north.

If the end of the Warrior-Prophet is any indication, Consult members not only travel with more brutal iterations of Sranc, but they travel with other Non-Men. A fact that Achamian, being of the Mandate is likely aware of. Include that with the terrain disabilities, and the north seems like a dead end unless he can find a safe route there, which would be impossible if the Sranc have nigh full control over it. Also...I'd like to point out that there's a high probability of some Skin-Spy variant in Ishterebinth as alluded to by Aurang in the Warrior-Prophet. A fact that moves me to curiosity.

Could the Consult have made more "mistakes" such as Simas without informing the others? How else could Aurang have spies in a place presumably populated only by sorcery practicing Non-Men? The lack of the mark should be able to snuff out most spies in their presence...unless they actually did find a way to reproduce Skin Spies with souls or at least convincingly reproduce the mark of the Onta. No matter what information Moengus gleaned and shared with Maithanet, it's 10 years outdated if memory serves (that corresponds with the time he caught them.) I wonder if much has changed in that time... view post


Mekeritrig posted 19 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

Madness, the alacrity, and absolution with which you not only assume superiority in knowledge, but ignorance and sheer idiocy with my commentary is somewhat irksome and entirely unneeded. You misunderstand both the reasoning behind my contention, and the underlying fact that I'm neither stating or implying that I am right, and you are wrong. This is a series of books from an author that adheres to neither convention, or predictability in execution. For this reason alone, I thought it wiser to present alternatives, than to assert absolutions in path, which, if you've noticed, is all I've done.

However, when a poster such as yourself refuses to disbelieve his own arguments in light of contrary, even more logical, evidence then it makes it hard to do so.


The "logic" with which I view the series in its progression is not on the basis of what would be more logical to the reader, or for the story, but what would be logical to the character. For clarification, I wholly agree that going to Ishterebinth over the west, elaborating on the Gnosis over witchcraft, etc are more logical decisions in the context of the stories progression to a satisfactory (read: happy) ending, but are they what Achamian would think? I have doubts of this for reasons stated above, and if I voice them, it's not because I disagree with you, or think the alternative being offered is more right than yours (this is a discussion, not a competition), but because all of the decisions, story archs, "twists," and modes of progression in the entirety of the Prince of Nothing have completely coincided with established traits of the characters morales, feelings, past, and knowledge, as opposed to what would be more logical to us at that moment.

If only singular perspectives are articulated, then other points and angles of progression are thereafter ignored. If the book operated by our logic as opposed to that of the characters, Achamian would have never left Xinemus, Xinemus would have never went to look for Achamian, Proyas would have been open to the concept of making peacee with Achamian, Cnaiur would have never taught Kellhus war, Esmenet would have went to Achamian as soon as he came back, and Conphas would have killed Cnaiur the moment after he caught him.

I understand that by rephrasing my question you hoped to discredit my argument.


Ugh. No. I did not rephrase your question, I used the deceptive logic with which you attempted to trap a singular, and absolute conclusion on yourself. I technically answered the question posed, actually. That answer being that never in any of Achamian's ruminations - internal or otherwise - did he hint to wanting to traverse through Zeum, or Ishterebinth. We have no basis in knowing where he would go outside of speculatory evidence, as he's given nothing in the way of hints as to a destination, or even a goal.

What you, and many other posters before you, need to grasp and incorporate into your speculations is that, to the last, every single one of Cû'jara Cinmoi's human characters are exactly that; human.


It takes a lot of presumption to even remotely assume that any of us have not factored this into our assessments. It's precisely because he is human that I say it could be just as plausible that he won't go to the north. He fears the Consult, and has knowledge of their activities (specifically in their growing power) that few in the Three Seas can match, add this to the fact (which I earlier iterated), that Ishterebinth is surrounded by an entire mountain range which Achamian likely lacks the equipment or capability to scale, and you have the reason of human restriction and trepidation to not disprove that he would go there, but to merely temper the fortitude of your conclusion with a slither of doubt that perhaps it's not feasible for him to.

However, isn't it likely, based on his many words and thoughts, that Achamian have some affinity for Nonmen?


I've seen no evidence of this. Knowing of Non-Men, and knowing something of their culture doesn't suddenly develop adoration or favoritism.

Again, I'll reiterate your need to read things more carefully. Had you paid heed to one of Mr. Bakker's quotes in my preceeding posts you wouldn't have made this point at all:


I despise how you assume that just because the conclusions reached don't coincide with your own, that they're somehow ignorant, and a pure omission of what you see as fact, even when fact is not at all present. The quote you give does in no manner say that some Non-Men aren't sorcerers, it merely says that the techniques that they're attempting aren't solely utilizing sorcery. I suppose I'm missing a sentence in hidden text, though, mayhaps I need to read more carefully.

Your second, and perhaps even more ignorant point for one who has again obviously thoroughly read the books, is that the North is untraversable.


Not once did I state this. If you're going to be insulting, at least focus the blunt of your disrespect to commentary I've actually made. It's Ishterebinth that I very clearly stated for the reason of positioning that would be hard - if not impossible - to get to, not the North in its entirety. At most, I've stated that the north was dangerous, and that Achamian - much more so than Kellhus - was aware of these dangers, and would be loath to indulge them.

My second, and definitely more damaging point, is that there is a route across the Istyuli Plains. Every year, as made known by Leweth, a caravan travels from Galeoth to Atrithau through Sakarpus. If set caravan of Galeoth can survive the circuit, hounded by Sranc as you'd say, then I'm sure Achamian, a sorcerer and experienced spy, could manage equally as fine, at least until Atrithau.


...I already know this. Would you please do me a favor, and consult the back of the books for a map? After doing this, I want you to place one finger on Ishterebinth, and another on Atrithau, and notice not only the obstacles that are in Achamian's path to get there, but the rather considerable gap between your two fingers that represents land that Achamian will have to travel through. After doing this, I want you to consider the given evidence that Sranc, and consult parties are more numerous beyond Atrithau (which is land that they own and traverse at leisure). I also want you to notice the entire mountain range that ostracizes Ishterebinth from the rest of the world.

I do not think sorcery is powerful enough to destroy mountains. And if he goes AROUND, and attempts to cross the sea of Neleost, he will be in Golgotterath's shadow. Assuming Achamian even KNOWS where Ishterebinth is, I'm pretty sure one glance at a map would be apt to sober him to the realization that attempting to go there is nigh suicidal.

Once again, despite your claims of my ineptitude, I suggest you read my posts more carefully before seeking to correct me, quote by quote.


These "claims" don't exist. Not once have I implied, referred, hinted to, or stated that you were inept.

You, on one hand, are the very embodiment of Kellhus's subjects; even knowing what he is, as an objective observer of a third person narrative. It seems to me that you think he can do no wrong as he seems to possess everyone eventually.


Well...look at the Holy War. Who he doesn't possess, he manipulates to the point where they are irrelevant just as he did with Conphas and Cnaiur. I'm not saying that he can do no wrong...but I honestly don't see any evidence suggesting that the Mandate is not beyond his cunning, especially now that he wields absolute power in terms of both religious, and political control. He's beyond a mere king, and the Quorum will have to deal with him as such, this is precisely why he attacked Shimeh before they arrived, and they will have to act accordingly. Entreating him not as an inferior, but as a superior, and considering that all men of rank now look to Kellhus in the same way, so will they. The only person that could potentially not fall susceptible to Kellhus that I've seen is Iyokus. Though I think that Esmenet may become resilient to him eventually, but that's a speculation for another thread.

He will be quite less exceptional once he's fully engulfed by the madness of emotion.


I don't know if he's emotional or not. I think Kellhus's transformation can be described as an epiphany as much as anything else. He seems to possess the same amorality and sociopathic disregard for feeling and the morale quandry brought forth by manipulation, but I think his change came from the fact that he now believes that there are forces beyond this world, and beyond his senses. Forces that control, and that auger both prophecy, and his ascension, and such a belief wholly contradicts logic, and it's this belief and conviction that set him aside from Moengus, who maintained an agnostic perception of The God, whereas Kellhus is not only willing to accept its existence, but he also seems willing to submit to it.

Whether he's amoral or not, and whether he lied before or not, I think it stands to reason that Kellhus is authentically a prophet. He did, afterall have a vision about Serwe's death and the events that transpired towards the end 200-300 pages before it actually occurred.

There seems to be a concensus between Schools that wizards and witches are to be hunted to extermination. This, to me, seems wise given that aside from the Imperial Saik the Schools remain indifferent towards the religious and secular powers of the Three Seas, and defections of members to such institutions could prove disastrous. This was the only reason I included the Mysunsai in hunt speculations as they likely would honor set concensus.


I wholly see your perspective, but please note that the only reason why I don't share it is because as of now, we are entirely blind as to how the schools do, and will view Kellhus, and what power Kellhus will seek to subvert over the schools in his current position. If the Mandate believes he is the Harbringer, and something remarkable altogether, that could actually thwart the second apocalypse (just as Achamian did), I wouldn't be at all surprised if they became to Kellhus what the Imperial Saik is to the Nansur Emperor. If this occurs, the other schools will most definitely become irrelevant.

And this would give Kellhus even further clout in dealing with sorcerers. Also...since he's Aspect Emperor, and basically the de facto overlord of Conriya, Ce Tydon, Galeoth, all of Kian, and soon to be every existent Inrithi; he could threaten servitude under the auspices of an army arrayed with Chorae bowmen...This threat, I would think, could bring very many schools to servitude. It's not like his promise to "overturn the old rules" doesn't come with some sense that he can't enforce it.

And again, I reference Achamian's monologue. He did not seem to be hunted, and his fear didn't seem to be other sorcerers so much as it seemed to be heresy against a ruler with servants that look at his absolution in power.

As for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, again at the end of the First Holy War, neither believe Kellhus to be a prophet.


I'm uncertain as to how the Scarlet Spires will, or did react. We know only that Eleazaras believed him to be a prophet, and that the only reason that Nautzera and the remaining members of the Mandate did not is because they had yet to meet him.

In fact, though the Mandate must now treat with Kellhus instead of seizing him, they remain convinced that they will be in control of his actions towards the Consult.


Again, I cite the fact that neither have they met him, nor do we know the contents of their meeting with him, or their reactions to it...

The Scarlet Spires on the other hand, though severely weakened, have a Grandmaster who just plain doesn't believe in Kellhus and has a major grudge against Achamian.


I'm not sure about this one. I've always found Iyokus's quary with Achamian to be more on the basis of respect, and honor more so than a merely petty grudge. The grudge was more or less solely on Achamian's end. If Iyokus had a grudge, I'd have imagined he'd have sent more than one Ciphrang, and would have asked him to kill him. But again, we have to keep in mind that Iyokus, as intelligent, and unlikely to submit to Kellhus as he may be, has yet to meet him at all. Therefore the results of said meeting, though assumed on the basis of probables can not be conclusive...

I think you've mistaken the aim of my posts here on the Three Seas forum. Other than quell any misconceptions of fact and speculation, my ultimate goal is to see if, either individually - nigh impossible - or collectively with other posters, the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor can be discerned now.


I understand your aim, and I share it, and would love to indulge it in a more...appropriate thread, which begs the question...why was it deleted?

This is another reason why I didn't respond to your arguments for Achamian not being alone against the Consult. In my former post I articulate that bar Consult move in force - which would include Sranc attacking populated Three Seas - Achamian is solely bent towards Consult defeat.


...Why do you think that the Mandate won't be? Why do you think that Kellhus isn't focusing on this? Throughout the entirety of the book, his intentions on the matter remain very largely unclear, but if he is focused on thwarting a Consult attack, I'd imagine he would take a grave many precautions to make sure that everyone in his jurisdiction is prepared by using the entirety of his given resources to the height of their advantages; a process that could perceivably take a long time.

And it's also unclear as to whether or not Achamian himself will focus on the Consult. I wonder to what extent he renounced his school...if he did so fully, then that would also imply that he renounced their mission.

The negation of the Uroborian Circle by Achamian's Wathi Doll was exceptionally improvised on Achamian's part. It in no way implies, as you seem to believe, that Witchcraft possesses negating properties of sorcery as does, once again, the Aporos


I didn't mean negation in the same sense as the Aporos. Perhaps an effective deviation would be a more adequate terminology. The Wathi Dolls are used as remote assassins, and since controlling them neither scars the user with the Mark, nor does it register as an actual cant, I see uses in this that could assist Achamian...

I'm still quite interested in Witchcraft. While it does have roots in Anagogic sorcery, its utilization seems to be more in line with Voodoo, than the common sorcery that we see practiced. By calling it Anagogic, I get the sense that we underestimate its currently unknown capabilities.

However, I refute that Witchcraft, an Anagogic sorcery, is the one Achamian should be utilizing. I reiterate again that Ishterebinth is one of the only places I can think of to where Achamian should turn for allies. Again your argument on the Mangaecca and Nonmen Erratic Quya who might've been praticing the Gnosis for millenia remains ignorant. Achamian need not spend millenia himself elaborating and learning when Quya and Siqu of Ishterebinth have done so for him.


I agree with your latter point, though I don't see how is it ignorant to state that they might be better sorcerers due to the fact that they've had more experience practicing it.

However, if he were not inclined to learn from Siqu, perhaps he will seek refuge in Cil-Aujas?


I don't see why he would. From my understanding, Non-Men are no longer present there. view post


No-God's questions posted 23 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Ulyaoth, Commoner

I never looked at the No-God as the product of the Tekne, and I think the only relation the No-God has to the Tekne is its oncoming resurrection. The No-God never seemed so much "made" as it was discovered, and harnessed. The Inchoroi aren't so vain as to worship their own creations, I would think, nor do I believe they would worship something they perceive as beneath them, which something made by their own hands would be.

If anything, I think the Tekne is merely a name for what we would call "science." Not a religion, or competing view point. In my view, it has always seemed to be a study of biology and technology and how to apply them both to make a functional creation. The "Void" you refer to, is not synonymous with the outside, it's merely the word used to specify what we would call "space." According to the descriptions given, The Ark is a living entity (or vessel) used to traverse it while simultaneously cultivating the lives of the creatures it held in its metaphorical (or actual) womb.

If anything, this much is true, the soul doesn't so much cause the Outside to exist, as it acts as a gateway to the Outside's jurisidiction in the organic world. When this gateway is removed, so then is its power over living entities in this life, and the next, hence the Inchoroi's goal. I don't think belief plays a factor in this, as the Inchoroi were forced to look at the Outside's existence as an inevitable fact, contradictory to belief. If it were as easy as "not believing," it would be more plausible for the Inchoroi to merely construct a new religion as opposed to causing the genocide of an entire world.

The Inchoroi didn't discover the existence of the Outside, or Gods or even souls through peer pressure, they found the Outside by delving deeply beneath the Ark - a place where the destruction of their race had formulated a Tapoi which caused them to see into the Outside, and thus uncover the marker of their damnation and work towards preventing it. A goal that coincided with that of Shauriatas, who seemed to be proficient in the transferring of souls more so than the Inchoroi. I would imagine the Consult seeks to revive the No-God by utilizing his capability with that of the Tekne, or perhaps creating new branches of sorcery with this goal in mind.

I think the only prominence belief has on the world of the Prince of Nothing is personal. I do not think belief can contradict or negate existence. view post


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