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Sea_Cucumber Candidate | joined 03 January 2007 | 16 posts


Seswatha's dreams. posted 03 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Hey guys, this is my first post on this Forum, and I only just finished tTT last night. I was reading through this thread, and I had a few things to add.

“Yes I did and I believe that seswatha has choosen Akka to carry on the war.”
-Harrol

I don’t believe that Seswatha can necessarily choose anyone to act in the second Apocalypse as he did in the first, but that he can (and has) placed within each Mandate Schoolman the kernel of strength, determination and willpower necessary to act as Seswatha would. I draw upon Akka’s torment by the Scarlet Spires…"Achamian is not strong", Bakker writes this himself; "...but Seswatha is". Achamian, because of the peculiar nature of the Mandate rituals, has been given this kernel of power. However, in order to preserve the Mandate’s Mandate, it’s raison d’etre, Seswatha passes on the dreams; his experiences, horrific, tragic and ultimately inspiring, so that the Mandate Schoolmen will use this power with the same dogged determination Seswatha himself possessed.

I think the parallels between Achamian and Seswatha are inevitable, as they both endured events that left them scarred, no less for those events being different. Also, I agree with what Madness said that the Akka of the the first novel, and to a leser extent the second (if it is indeed only an introductory series) cannot be parralelled with Seswatha because he is Achamian. But the trials he endures slowly strips him of the weaker aspects of his character, and as a result of his newfound strength and determination, he cannot help but resemble Seswatha.

I realize that this post has been focusing on the dreams, and I just wanted to say that the dreams I think are more a vehicle, a tool Seswatha crafted of his own memories to forge the Mandate into an entire body out of which, at the appropriate time, those few could rise who would be equipped, mentally and Gnostically, to fight in the second Apocalypse. I think the dreams represent the continuing influence of Seswatha, the constant little pushes that guide Achamian into becoming what the First Apocalypse needed, and got (Seswatha), and what the Second Apocalypse needs; someone highly focused on accomplishing the defeat of the Consult, and who works towards this end with singleminded determination.

When the Achamian dreams the same dream as he had countless times through the series, but the dream changes, I was surprised. But I agree with what Madness was saying, in that Achamian’s dreams seem to reflect the changes within him, even while they remain Seswatha’s tools.

If anything needs clarification, call me on it and I’ll be happy to explain more fully. view post


No-God's questions posted 04 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Wow, that was a great catch....I'd always thought that the No-God, for whatever reaso, was like an infant...but with awareness and intellect, but newborn nonetheless...which would be why Mog keps asking the question...it struck me as almost petulant, like a child who needs something, and demands it repeatedly. It makes alot of sense if Mog is literally an incarnation of all the souls not on Earwa, and why he expresses those 'fundamental' questions of man.

But then, shouldnt that affect the way the Outside leaks into the world? I can't properly remember akka's description of that, and i can't find the passage...it's somewhere in tTT though. view post


Kellhus and the Gnosis posted 04 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus and the Gnosis by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Now, I've been perusing the forum, and it seems to me like everyone seems to think that Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis. Maybe I missed something, but it seemed to me that Kellhus, rather than having mastered the Gnosis, simply expanded beyond what anyone has ever done, with what he knew at the time. If Sorcery is intellect, Kellhus' intellect should have been more than a match for the heart driven Psukhe of the Cishaurim. Based on how often Kellhus is better at everything than everyone else, it seems to me incongruent that he should have mastered the Gnosis, and yet was unable to use it to defeat the Cishaurim (although, they were the very best).

It seems to be more like he elaborated on what he already knew, and combined it with his other prowesses (skill with the blade, ability to read people) in order to overcome the Cishaurim. The only real example we see of him using sorcery has him not really doing anything powerful, so much as complicated; weaving two inutterals together to change the nature of a more basic spell into something he could use to his benefit. view post


Will Esmi Cause Mandati/Warrior-Prophet Drama? posted 06 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWill Esmi Cause Mandati/Warrior-Prophet Drama? by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

just jumping back to what Alhana said, about wanting Esmi to be a better person, i don't necessarily think Esmi is to blame...I mean, Kellhus posesses...no one was outside his reach, with the exception of Cnaiur (fueled by thirty years of shame turned hate) and with achamian, who's deep sense of loss and betrayal combined with his scepticism allows him to believe what Cnaiur tells him of Kellhus and the Dunyain.

Also, another thing Alhana mentioned a bit later on, about the flaws within the relationship between Achamian and Esmenet, I think that is what truly makes a relationship. It's not the perfect moments; she has enough of those with Kellhus, and they end up amounting to Worship, because Kellhus will never feel as she feels for him, will never be hers eye to eye. She will always feel les than him, and knows, beyond a doubt (regardless whether this is true or not) that she is less than Kellhus.

It's true that there is meaning within the mistakes in their relationship, but it's an imperfect reason for staying with Kellhus, and I think by the time we see AE, we will see an old, embittered Esmenet. I think the way their relationship was so flawed, was why it was real, and you coulndt take any flaws out of it without making it some construct. view post


Scott Bakker ruined it for me. posted 06 January 2007 in Off-Topic DiscussionScott Bakker ruined it for me. by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

When i first bought the book...

okay, this requires a bit of a confession..se, i don't usually jump from fantsy series...until i buy a new book bsed on cover alone. I bought tWP on cover alone, and was riveted by how perfectly flawed all the characters seemed. now i realize it was to contrast Kellhus, but even then it was wholly unlike anything i had read, ever. It felt like it was only fantasy so scott could communicate his expressions/philosophies of humanity and our flaws.

anyways, that basiclly sums it up...reading other fantyasy has been difficult, and for the first time i've not bothered even touching those old books i used tor ead every now and again...thoughtless reading is no fun anymore

that said, well done Mr. Bakker on an amazing trilogy. I have little doubt that these series will be the stuff my grandchildren read. view post


Akka....The Chanv addict? posted 01 November 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Akka....The Chanv addict? by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Quote: "Cohen":ki5tc7fv
Yes, the non-men. A good connection there I do remember the description, white bodies.[/quote:ki5tc7fv]

I'm pretty sure I'm correct in this, that the Non-Men only experienced the effects you mentioned (womb plague, extended life, paleness of figure, &quot;bristling&quot; of intellect <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->) as a result of Inchoroi ministrations. You were correct in the consult connection as far as the Consult is connected with the Inchoroi. Chanv sounds far more like an Inchoroi creation than that of the Non-Men, who are really just intelligent, undying men.

Who've occasionally lost it.

That said, I think Chanv comes from some marshlands somewhere to the south. view post


Achamian posted 01 November 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Achamian by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Quote: &quot;seekerjd&quot;:2d65k2f4
Hey all, new to the boards and not sure if anyone has covered this (haven't seen it at a glance) but has anyone noted the development in Achamian that you have by the end of the third book? Namely, after everything he's gone through he seems to have acquired (perhaps through Kellhus' purposeful orchestration) a viewpoint somewhat similar to the Dunyain. He's repudiaded pretty much everything by the end, no faith in institutions, in people, and in &quot;tools to other ends&quot; (concepts like love, duty, etc.). All that's left is an objectivity similar to that conditioned into the Dunyain, though it's been a bit since I read the three books and I'm not entirely sure the degree to which he grasps the other concepts really necessary for the view (i.e. what seem to be causality, open dynamic systems ala chaos theory, equifinality, etc.).

Just an idea.[/quote:2d65k2f4]

I think, for the most part, these characteristics are presumed to be weaknesses when it comes to confronting, aggressively, any enemy. Love can be a strength in times of peace, but in a war anyone you love can be hurt to hurt you. Interdependence, really, is what Bakker seems to be talking about. I think Achamian is now completely Independant now, has cut himself off from his love for Esmi. He has become Seswatha, as was Seswatha's intent.

My question is, is it Achamian's opinion, at the end of tTT, that he is the perfect man, or is it the Author's opinion, which makes a world of difference. Conphas thought he was perfect, and wasn't, dies within a few hundred pages of this revelation.

So what is it? view post


Your First Time posted 01 November 2007 in Off-Topic DiscussionYour First Time by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

You guys will probably never have heard of this, but the fantasy book I came back to over and over again was called the Changeling Prince, when I was about 12.

Otherwise, The hobbit i read about 58 times, tLotR i read a few, the Wheel of Time, forgotten realms stuff wehn I was younger (yeah, i loved Drizzt, I'll admit it)

But still no fantasy has ever felt this...worthy.epic.classy.complex.distinct. Nothing written that I have read has ever felt so perfectly flawed as the characters and events of these books.

Possibly Ondaatje.

That's high praise, Mr. Bakker. view post


Akka....The Chanv addict? posted 01 November 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Akka....The Chanv addict? by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

I don't think it has ever really been used in any other context than &quot;ingest&quot; or &quot;take&quot;...try checking where Iyokus is introduced, I'm sure chanv is explained there...I think he's intro'd in tDtCB, but i'm not sure where, view post


'The Great Ordeal' or 'Horns of Golgotterath'? posted 03 November 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]'The Great Ordeal' or 'Horns of Golgotterath'? by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

for me, certain parts of the warrior prophet are awesome, and tDtCB is amazing because of how plainly things are laid out in comparison with the next two. But by far, TTT is the best of the three. For sheer event tonnage (the things that happen), the depth and breadth of the questions is answers and raises, and she sheer number of badass (and exquisitely written) scenes. Kellhus meeting Moenghus, Achamian fending off the Imperial Saik, The sacking of Shimeh, Cnair's battle against the imp. forces, the scenes with him and his &quot;serwe&quot;.

What is your favorite scene of all time in tPoN?

mine is either the last scene where achamian renounces everything, and walks away a Wizard (probably as Scott intended) or the war-scene at the end of WP. view post


Kellhus' Other Children and Other Ramblings posted 03 November 2007 in Author Q &amp; AKellhus' Other Children and Other Ramblings by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

well, actually, the statement that every member of Ishual has a little Anasurimbor blood in them raises a problem.

think about it like this. Say, for the sake of argument, that only 2 out of every 4 individuals will be allowed to submit their genes into the gene pool.

A-anasurimbor
O-other

assuming average lifespan of 60 years, procreating up to 4 times (maximizinjg the number of available offspring without interfereing in logos training, any number of whom may end up being genetically viable. The only important thing is that the reproducing population of Ishual remain stable i.e. 1:1. therefore, for every two parents, there should be 2 selected)

so.

AA-OO OO-OO OO-OO
=AOx2 + OOx2 + OOx2 (wherein each combination is an individual)


AO-OO AO-OO OO-OO

(wherein every AO or OO is one individual, a product of AA and OO, or OO and OO genotypes)

leads to the anasurimbor line being eventually diluted across the entirety of Ishaul. Therefore, if every parent knew of their anasurimbor legacy, they would (rightly so) name THEIR children anasurimbor.

The only way in which there could be one family named anasurimbor is if they interbreed. This post doesn't answer a question, it raises one.


How can Cu'Jara Cinmoi justify the existence of only one Ansurimbor per generation? Or does he? view post


INRI Sejenus posted 01 February 2008 in General DiscusssionINRI Sejenus by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

I was just doing research for a paper, and i suspect that this has been spotted before, but Inri was also the acronym carved onto the cross above Jesus' head (allegedly)...it is a latin acronym, meaning Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.

I thought that that was fairly enlightening, and most likely not coincidental at all. Kudos, Mr. Bakker, for making more complete and complex that particular layer of the Earwa mythos.

p.s. cannot wait until the great ordeal, and further illumination into the world he has created. view post


INRI Sejenus posted 01 February 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]INRI Sejenus by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

I was just doing research for a paper, and i suspect that this has been spotted before, but Inri was also the acronym carved onto the cross above Jesus' head (allegedly)...it is a latin acronym, meaning Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.

I thought that that was fairly enlightening, and most likely not coincidental at all. Kudos, Mr. Bakker, for making more complete and complex that particular layer of the Earwa mythos.

p.s. cannot wait until the great ordeal, and further illumination into the world he has created.

p.s.s. i posted this in the general forum, but suspect no one browses that. so here it is <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 15 February 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

I think we are placing too much emphasis on &quot;gay&quot; vs. &quot;straight&quot; vs &quot;bi-sexual&quot;...maybe this has already been pointed out, but sexuality is more of a continuum than separate spheres residing miles apart, with no common ground. Furthermore, in Cnaiur's case, I would suggest that any accurate depiction of his sexuality must be addressed in two separate ways.

Firstly, his relations with Moenghus. A dunyain, as was said earlier, could talk him or herself into anyone's pants, regardless of sexuality. I would support this by saying that as much as sexuality determines who we are initially attracted to, that process can work the other way. That powerful intimacy, especially if guided by someone who is in a position of power, like Moenghus with Cnaiur, could be turned from the emotional to the physical very easily, regardless of Cnaiur's sexuality. Sexuality reinforces intimacy and vice versa; the line between the two is complex and blurry.

The second aspect is Cnaiur's response; I like to think of it as his backlash, the physical expression of his rage and inner torment. His sexuality when he is in a position of dominance I would say reflects heterosexual leanings only because, in cnaiur's world, men are more dominated and violated by being killed. Women don't fit into that paradigm, and so raping will have to suffice to show complete and utter violent domination.

As he rapes and kills and violates, Cnaiur attempts to scar the world as he is scarred, simultaneously expressing his anguish at being so emotionally castrated and his despair knowing he cannot change.

Now, this last bit is my own personal interpretation; it's drawn more on assumptions than actual text. The flavor of Cnaiur is violence and violation. I asked myself &quot;why?&quot; and this was my take on it.

Back to the sexuality tack, I don't think Cnaiur is really homosexual or heterosexual. I think any homosexual relations in the books reflect more the level of control moenghus has over Cnaiur, rather than Cnaiur's instinctual sexuality. That has long since been scarred as well. Cnaiur's sexuality I would say only manifests as another means of controlling and scarring his world. T

I really did put too much here, but it would be interesting to investigate Cnaiur and the Idea of the Scar or the state of beingt scarred; i think that word, more than even violent or murderer, sums him up best. view post


Kelhus vs ... posted 15 February 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKelhus vs ... by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Kellhus' abilities scale with emotions...thats why he had no hold over conphas, who felt nothing (among other reasons) and was emotionally dead.

ergo;

the one to defeat Kellhus would have to be an anti-hero or villain as well, one who doesn't feel. problem is, there aren't many of those in any kind of lit.

plus said anasurimbor-killer would need some way to defeat kellhus in combat, or prevent kellhus from martially attacking him.

i'm drawing a blank though. any suggestions?

Who's the most emotionless bad-ass anti-hero you can think of to fight kellhus? view post


Kelhus vs ... posted 16 February 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKelhus vs ... by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

yoda is small sized, and so is thus harder to hit. plus, kellhus has that huge greatsword, even if he was fast, i doubt he'd be as fast as yoda was animated...keep in mind yoda was OLD then. yoda in his latter years would surely have an utter mastery of the force, combined with a fairly youthful vigor. Kellhus could maybe take him in combat, but he coult not manipulate him.

pluws, we're forgetting that the force can control weak minds; the difference between what the force does and what kellhus does it like the tide to a tidal wave. One edges back and forth, inevitably teasing out a final result, whereas the other is a one-time effect that forces it's results.

While what kellhus does is more subtle, i have my money on Yoda.

although kellhus could easily just manipulate the weak minded and use them to overpower with number, the tiny green jedi. view post


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