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BobbyR Commoner | joined 21 July 2008 | 8 posts


Are the Dunyain doomed? posted 24 July 2008 in General DiscusssionAre the Dunyain doomed? by BobbyR, Commoner

I've been thinking a lot about the philosophy of the Dunyain, and the events of the Prince of Nothing. I think Bakker put in some clues as to what he has in mind.

Their ultimate goal is to become the Absolute: a perfectly self-moving soul. I think they are doomed to never reach that goal - not because its impossible, but because of 2000 years of their methods.

Most of my reasoning comes from the dialogue with Moenghus in TTT. They reveal that he sought the sorcerous power of the Cishaurim, only to find out that as a Dunyain, he lacks the passions needed to master the Psukhe. I ran across a greek word recently: "psuche." I don't think the spelling of Psukhe and Psuche are any coincidence. The greek word "psuche" means "soul" or "spirit." Bakker undoubtedly knew this, because of his background. Where the Agnosis and Gnosis seem to be sorceries that derive from Reason, the Psukhe is a sorcery that derives its power from movements of the soul. That's why Agnostic and Gnostic sorcerers cannot spot the Mark of the Cishaurim, much in the same way that math, science, etc. (Reason) can never apprehend the soul. Back to Moenghus, and the Dunyain, since they are Conditioned in such a way that makes it impossible to master the Psukhe, I conclude that though they can see "what comes before" the soul they have bred and Conditioned theirselves such that now they don't even possess Souls as we know them. Therefore they can never become a self-moving soul - they only can move the souls of others.

I think there might be some holes in this logic, but what do you think? view post


Who would you cast in a Prince of Nothing movie? posted 24 July 2008 in General DiscusssionWho would you cast in a Prince of Nothing movie? by BobbyR, Commoner

I'm not sure about the rest of the "cast," but these two images kept coming to mind while I read:

Kellhus: Kiefer Sutherland
Moenghus: Donald Sutherland

I think Donald S. would make a splendid Moenghus, but I'm not too sure about Kiefer S. view post


No-God theory, or another theory posted 11 December 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]No-God theory, or another theory by BobbyR, Commoner

To me, one of the most puzzling items in the PON trilogy are the Mandate nightmare scenes about the No-God. We are told at some point that the No-God was awakened by the Consult through the Tekne, and an important part of the No-God is the Carapace, described as a sarcophagus adorned with a bunch of Chorae. The No-God keeps saying "WHAT DO YOU SEE" as if he is alarmed and curious - not exactly something you'd expect a god to say. Since the No-God is like an artificial creation (via the Tekne), I've been wondering if an important Tekne ingredient to the No-God is a Man or Nonman (living or dead?) who is housed in the Carapace sarcophagus. The question is, who was the original? And if the Consult is looking to reawaken the No-God for the Second Apocalypse, who is the next one?

This leads me to the tantalizing next theory: wouldn't Cnaiur be a great candidate for this? It wasn't at all clear to me that he died at the end of the TTT, in fact I believe he still lives. He'd be the one who understands the Dunyain (and the Aspect-Emperor) the most.

At the very least, given his relationship with the skinspies, I see him become the Consult's general, since it was someone from his now defunct Scylvendi tribe (I can't seem to remember the name!!!) that was the original. And again, he understands the Dunyain and Kellhus the best, and would likely have the best chance of coming up with appropriate tactics in the coming war. view post


The Doomed Ordeal? posted 03 April 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Doomed Ordeal? by BobbyR, Commoner

It will certainly be a long march, but you always have to wonder what Kellhus/Bakker has in store for this story. Look what's on the way up to Golgotterath. As soon as I heard that the next trilogy was coming, I wondered if Kellhus was planning a pit-stop at Ishual. Imagine the Dunyain's reaction when he appears in the middle of everything (using the Gnosis) and starts shooting lightning at everybody. Why would he do that? If the Three Seas caught on (because of Akka) that there is a whole fortress filled with a bunch of Kellhuses, that would really mess up the whole swanky "Aspect Emperor is God" setup he has going.

Alternatively, maybe he could recruit some more bad-ass Dunyain to the Ordeal.

Maybe the answer to the original question is similar to "Why not just fly the Eagles straight to Mount Doom, and drop the Ring in?" Because then you wouldn't have a story. view post


Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 29 April 2009 in The Judging EyeCelmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" by BobbyR, Commoner

I'm near the end of a second reading of the Judging Eye, and as usually the case, new things stand out to me.

With this in particular: Akka is dreaming about mundane details of Seswatha's life, and the focus on the book has been those dreams which offer clues to Ishual. Eventually the "coincidence" (or is it a "Correspondence of Cause"?...) arises where he dreams a lot of the fall of Sauglish, which he ultimately learns is the location of the golden scroll-case (which presumably has a map to Ishual). Sauglish happens to be the phony objective he gave to the Skin Eaters, long before he decided he even wanted to go there.

I know there has been some discussion of whether the other Mandate Schoolmen are also dreaming the mundane details of Seswatha's life, BUT Sorweel's tutor mentions near the end of the book that he HAS been dreaming of the fall of Sauglish a lot lately. That can't be a coincidence!

The dreams clue that Seswatha might be the only one to know of Ishual, and given he's the one that hears the Celmomian Prophesy, he must have realized that Ishual is the only place from which an Anasurimbor could possibly return. Also there is heavy insinuation that Nau-Cayutas is in truth Seswatha's son, but I don't remember the relation between Celmomas/Nau-Cayutas and the Anasurimbor (I forget the name) that succeeded Celmomas and died at Ishual. In several ways, therefore, Seswatha is very close to the Anasurimbor family and long vested in "watching" (from the Outside?) the succession of Anasurimbors as Dunyain at Ishual. Are the Dreams his way of informing the Mandate/Akka? If so, what would be the message and motive? Also, if this were true, why start now, and not long before the First Holy War? I think the timing of the Great Ordeal's (and Kellhus) location on the map, and Akka's eventual arrival at Ishual is going to be very important. view post


Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 30 April 2009 in The Judging EyeCelmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" by BobbyR, Commoner

OK, thanks for the family tree...I just don't have the books to refer to while I distract myself writing on the Three Seas Forum while I should be working! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

Either way, I still think Seswatha is somehow up to something new, with the new dreams. Seswatha wants Akka to find Ishual. Kellhus seems to want Akka to find Ishual. When Kellhus hyponotized Akka in TTT, he claimed he wanted to talk directly to Seswatha's soul (or something to that effect), to release Seswatha's barrier that prevents Akka from teaching the Gnosis. When I first read this, before the Judging Eye came out, I just figured that this was a Dunyain white lie, and Kellhus just broke the barrier with hypnosis, like you try to get someone to quit smoking through hypnosis. Now, I am wondering if Kellhus really did interact with Seswatha's soul after all! All these &quot;coincidental&quot; links between Seswatha and Ishual seem to be too numerous and compelling to ignore. view post


Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the &quot;Present&quot; posted 04 May 2009 in The Judging EyeCelmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the &quot;Present&quot; by BobbyR, Commoner

That's not what I was implying....though that is an interesting idea...!

My thought was that Seswatha's homunculus(?) was MADE AWARE of Kellhus, because of the hypnotism. And he either liked or disliked what he saw. This changed the rules of the benjuka plate, if you will, and he's trying to tell Akka/Mandate something. In Akka's case, he might be actively helping Akka find Ishual. Though we don't know why! view post


Gnostism posted 29 July 2009 in General DiscusssionGnostism by BobbyR, Commoner

Surely someone has looked this up already, and if its on the board somewhere forgive me.

But I looked up Gnostism on Wikipedia. Some of the stuff on there feels kind of familiar. First, there is apparently a symbol or emblem for Gnostism, and it looks just like the Circumfix (as Bakker describes it).

Second, the description in the article reminded me of a few things that Kellhus said, to Achamian, I believe. &quot;Gnostic systems are typically marked out by: 1) The notion of a remote, supreme monadic divinity - this figure is known under a variety of names, including 'Pleroma' and 'Bythos' (Greek: Βυθός, &quot;deep&quot;);
2) The introduction by emanation of further divine beings, which are nevertheless identifiable as aspects of the God from which they proceeded; the progressive emanations are often conceived metaphorically as a gradual and progressive distancing from the ultimate source, which brings about an instability in the fabric of the divine nature...&quot;

I don't have the wording completely accurate from the PON but, Kellhus says in the TTT &quot;How could the God be anything other than remote?&quot;
And these quotes from the Wikipedia article: Gnostism comprises of &quot;various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god...&quot; and &quot;The gnōsis referred to in the term is a form of revealed, esoteric knowledge through which the spiritual elements of humanity are reminded of their true origins within the superior Godhead, being thus permitted to escape materiality...&quot;

Those last two quotes remind me of Kellhus's explanation that everyone's soul is a piece of the God (or something like that), and the Few are those who remember the Gods voice (or something like that).

Its fun to just take in Bakker's world on its own right, but its also fun to consider whether or not stuff like this inspired his world as well. view post


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