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Athjeari Peralogue | joined 29 May 2008 | 63 posts


*Spoilers* Favourite new character. posted 02 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Favourite new character. by Athjeari, Peralogue

Incariol, Cleric, was the most intriguing character in The Judging Eye. The Nonman demonstrated a ridiculuous ability to avoid dying, and not just with his sorcery.
His past is a mystery, yet it seems to be intertwined with the events unfolding. His actual name might not even be Incariol.
I am more concerned that Incariol might be an agent of evil though. Too many things occurred under the mountain that should have killed, yet Incariol walks out unscathed? It seems to odd. How did he live through the Wight possession?

I am hoping beyond hope that Incariol is a "good" character though, and I am dying to read more about him and the other existing Nonmen! view post


Dunyain machinations posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Athjeari, Peralogue

Okay, so I am beginning to wonder if the Dunyain might have a hand in the greater events of Earwa.
Everything is conditioned is it not? Sending out Kellhus to kill Moenghus would clearly have implications that I am sure the Dunyain had to have thought about.
Why send out Kellhus to kill Moenghus, in a sense they were just replacing the threat with another threat, no? I think the Pragma's and the Dunyain are exerting influence from behind their walls of Ishual. What do you guys think?
By sending Kellhus into the world, the Dunyain had to know that Kellhus would make an impact on the world. I don't think that Kellhus will be able to bring down the Consult and the Inchoroi without more help, and I think the Dunyain will have a larger part in the later books.

Any thoughts on this? view post


Dunyain machinations posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Athjeari, Peralogue

Is it not true that Kellhus has been totally conditioned his entire life? Who is conditioning him though? Who is making the decisions for the Dunyain (or who is in control, leading, or dominating them)? How is having Kellhus running around in Earwa any less dangerous to their seclusion than it was when Moenghus was alive?
Moenghus was sent out to see if a Sranc party that got too close to Ishual was aware of them. What if this was the Dunyains way to begin their interaction with Earwa on a larger scale? Dunyain are prepared to condition themselves over 2000 years, it seems perfectly plausible that they would take lifetimes to effectively engage society.

Could it not be argued that the Dunyain know of the Consult, or at least the first Apocalypse? Were the Dunyain not refugees from the first Apocalypse, and we know that this information was taught to Kellhus because he interrupts his Pragma during the training exercise to control the Legion by saying as much.

Dunyain logic seems so funny to me because they are taught to dominate. What happens within Ishual where everyone would be Dunyain and trying to dominate circumstance?
In my opinion the Dunyain have to play a larger role within the series; I would be sorely disappointed if they didn't. I thought I remember reading somewhere that Bakker said more Dunyain would be involved in the later installments, but if I am wrong someone please correct me. view post


Spoiler: Kelmonas' Voice posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeSpoiler: Kelmonas' Voice by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am inclined to believe that Kel's voice is either the intellect that was suppose to be within his brother, or that it is a mental disorder.
I say it could be his brother because of the three year staring contest, and the impact of breaking it might have had something to do with Samarmas being handicap. Also, the reference of "What took you so long to kill me." when just about every other thing that the voice says deals only with Kel. Now with Samarmas killed, I think you could argue that the twins have become "whole".

I also make the argument for the sociopath, crazy kid. The voice could be totally in his head, and telling him, "The Andiamene Heights have sinned, it's time to cleanse the empire Kel."

And the fact that he hears the voice say "What took you so long to kill me," makes a compelling argument for insanity as well because, as I stated above, it is the only time the voice is not referring to something with Kel (at least that I remember), so the voice could be telling Kel what Kel what's to hear.

The fact that Kellhus and Esmi's first child is the only one that appears to be "normal" also says something too. Kel is not a healthy person, half-dunyain, or whatever you want to call him. All the other children have had some sort of debilitating defect, accept their first son. Why would Kel be any different?
Speaking of the children what are people's thoughts on the boy (I forgot his name) that is locked in the room? What made him become the person he is today? Could it be argued that he "saw the face of God, and now knows madness?" It seems odd that he was at one time "normal" by Kellhus' childrens status, and then became the person he his in TJE. view post


Spoiler: Kelmonas' Voice posted 06 March 2009 in The Judging EyeSpoiler: Kelmonas' Voice by Athjeari, Peralogue

Keep in mind, I said the first born appeared to be normal. We also have to assume it's possible to have a normal half Dunyain, otherwise how do you explain Maithanet?
This could start a new topic, but what does everyone think about the son locked in his room? Also, if Kel is ruling the empire, how does this escape his uncle and sister's Dunyain eye? view post


Consensus so far? posted 30 March 2009 in The Judging EyeConsensus so far? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I agree with Cil-Aujas being WAY better than the mines of Moria. Cil-Aujas did make the book, and I hope that we get to see more of Lord Kosoter, and especially Incariol.

Don't forget that Bakker has options for more interesting POV's too. Moenghus (Cnaiur's son) has been shown and has already been labeled as mad. I am hoping to gain more insight into him already! Don't forget about Kellhus or Kellhus's first born son either, both of them could make for some really great POV's.

I think that Sorweel is going to become a much more important character, and hopefully he'll be more fleshed out or at least develop into a great character. I didn't like reading about him so much in TJE, but he has a lot of potential.
I also think it would be insightful and spectacular to gain a Nonman POV. I want to know what goes through the mind of an Erratic like Incariol.


That's how I feel about the book, it has laid the grounds for so much potential that I am incredibly excited for the next book. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 01 April 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Athjeari, Peralogue

Hmm...I did not interpret Kellhus' conversation with Akka in the same way.
It has been awhile since I've read TTT, but I looked at it as the human soul in everyone as representations of the Outside manifested in the world. That each person's soul is linked to the outside and this links everyone to one another (because we are all linked to the outside) I did not take it that there was an Oversoul (which would suggest that each person is one and the same, yes?)

Kellhus does not necessarily have to be right about his assumptions of the outside either. When he told Akka this, he had not teleported into the outside yet. It is possible for Kellhus to be wrong, and I think Akka even felt that his example displeased him.

Basically, I was under the impression that Kellhus said that part of the God is within each human being, since the soul is connected to the Outside, and what makes sorcerers is that the soul has not forgotten the language of the God.

Otherwise, technically everyone would be able to be a sorcerer if they were all part of the one Oversoul, couldn't they? view post


The Doomed Ordeal? posted 01 April 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Doomed Ordeal? by Athjeari, Peralogue

Good post, but I always assumed that this is the reason Kellhus had children. Kellhus knows that he might not be able to destroy Golgotterath within his lifetime, hence his sons, which will have sons and so on. As this massive train of over 300,000 people slowly crawls North, surely outposts will arise and soon more cities will become inhabited. I'm also assuming that Kellhus will retake some strongholds that belonged to Kuniuri, and this will make it so they can have a base of operations. From this they can set up more legitimate supply lines and rest troops and bring in reserves. This is a big feat, but going by sea would not necessarily make it easier. If the Ordeal were to go by sea, the besiegers would become the besieged. All of the Sranc in the wilderness could encircle the besiegers of Golgotterath. The Great Ordeal has to kill the Sranc as they go, there wouldn't be another way. Don't forget that for 20 years people have been hunting Sranc down too. This will most definitely be a war of attrition, and taking back ancient strongholds will be key to the success.
I don't think Kellhus can march up to Golgotterath and go for a killing blow immediately. I would like to think that Kellhus is smart enough to realize this too. view post


Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 10 April 2009 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- by Athjeari, Peralogue

Sorweel better play a larger part within the series at some point. I honestly did not like reading his sections very much; he whined, and moped way too much for my taste, not to mention that he just isn't very interesting at all. Sorweel is by far one of the most indistinct characters that has ever gotten face time in Bakker. I hope to God that he becomes more of a factor, but I do not think that he is the White Luck Warrior. If for some terrible reason Sorweel is the WLW, he better start putting things in motion because I don't want to read more of the same type of behavior from him in the follow-up books.

Too much happened with the Old Crone down south for me to believe that Sorweel is the WLW
I think the WLW is going to be a force to be reckoned within the empire. I feel what happened with Sorweel was used to show that the mother God has influence over humans and perceptions. How can Kellhus tackle power that is not of this world? I don't know if he can, I think Sorweel was used as a window for us to see the trouble that is brewing for Kellhus. view post


Harbinger posted 10 April 2009 in The Judging EyeHarbinger by Athjeari, Peralogue

I have been thinking about this ever since we were introduced to the Mandate prophecy about the Anasurimbor.

Everyone seems to feel that Kellhus is the Harbinger, and most individuals think that this means he will be the one to save the world. For some reason they call him a harbinger and yet think, just because of the prophecy, that he will save the world.

If he is indeed a harbinger, than it only implies that he is coming as a forerunner to the apocalypse. It doesn't necessarily mean that he will save the world. Kellhus' coming could merely be a sign that the apocalypse is near, not that he will prevent the apocalypse. Celmomas never says that an Anasurimbor will save the world, he says that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. (in fact we have no reason to believe that the world can even be saved!)

So, after stating that, does anyone feel that the WLW could be the one to deliver mankind from the brink of apocalypse? As of now the WLW has been portrayed as a somewhat dubious person/creation that is going to reek havoc on the world, but if the WLW does have divine power from a God, would that not make the individual good? view post


Twice Read Tales posted 15 April 2009 in The Judging EyeTwice Read Tales by Athjeari, Peralogue

I agree with so much of what you have said. I have even debated about conducting a content analysis of PON for a research project in Graduate School.
These books apply real world religion, philosophy, and logic. What you state in the first post of this topic is what I often tell individuals when they ask about the series. Oddly enough this turns people away at times. They don't feel that a fantasy novel can speak to the real world, but Bakker writes his fantasy from a real world perspective. Bakker uses his knowledge of the real world and applies it within his fantasy. This is exactly why I think some people are turned away from Bakker. The books can be insightful, but you have to be willing to put forth effort for the insight to come; this requires thought. view post


Harbinger posted 15 April 2009 in The Judging EyeHarbinger by Athjeari, Peralogue

I think you could argue that Celmomas did not build Ishual as a place for Anasurimbor to lay and hide in the weeds until they saw fit to leave. Ishual was a last ditch attempt to keep humanity alive, not a haven for Anasurimbors to regroup, and the Dunyain were not in the original plans for Ishual. I don't think Celmomas had precognition. I think he knew that his bastard lived in Ishual and that he had a good chance to survive the apocalypse because Ishual was hidden. He made the claim because he had a reason to believe that someone from his line would survive. Like I said, he makes no claim as the how the Anasurimbor will return, nor does he say the purpose of the return. Celmomas simply states that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. view post


An interesting thought... posted 12 June 2009 in The Judging EyeAn interesting thought... by Athjeari, Peralogue

In an abstract way Kellhus is behind all that has going on within the Yatwer.

None of what is going on within the sect of Yatwer would be occuring without the presence of Kellhus.

Now, does this mean that Kellhus is using the Yatwer sect as a tool? I doubt it, but it is too difficult to determine this without any POV's from Kellhus. We have literally no idea what he has planned.
I'd like to think that he has more going on than marching his massive army North. view post


No-God theory, or another theory posted 12 June 2009 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]No-God theory, or another theory by Athjeari, Peralogue

I feel that Cnaiur died at the end of TTT.

Even if he didn't die the Cnaiur we knew and loved would be no more. He would be around sixty five years old in the JE. I'm pretty sure that Cnaiur would be feeling the affects of aging.

It appears that the No-God is totally constructed, but constructed out of what? view post


Esme's Womb Corrupted? *Spoilers* posted 18 July 2009 in The Judging EyeEsme's Womb Corrupted? *Spoilers* by Athjeari, Peralogue

I believe the issue lies with Kellhus's seed, not Esmi's womb.
Esmi did bare a normal child with Kellhus. Their first son is quite normal, even though he has no emotion.

As was posted before, Kellhus has tried coupling with other woman and the results have been the same. Kellhus is the problem here.

To the post that mentioned Cnaiur's sister, she wasn't killed at birth for having defects (I don't think anyway, I don't recall this occurring). The reason she was killed was the child had blonde hair and so it became clear that Cnaiur's mother coupled with the slave Moenghus.

Kellhus needs a Dunyain woman to truly have a child that can take over his empire.

(Also, don't forget that Moenghus was able to father a fairly normal child. Maithanet is not defective, at least not in a way that we can tell) Dunyain can couple with common women; whether or not the child will be normal is kind of a shot in the dark. view post


This is a bit off topic... posted 12 October 2009 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by Athjeari, Peralogue

but this is the most active board, so I figure the chances I'll get a response are best if I post here.

I have a question, I am looking for the part within the The Prince of Nothing in which Achamian is talking to a young Proyas and Achamian is talking to him about questioning things.

Proyas says something along the lines, "So are you saying the Tusk is lying to us?"
Achamian replies, "I don't know."

And it goes on to say that Achamian was asked to leave Proyas' household the very next day.

Does anyone know which book I could find this part in? If you could give a page number that would be splendid, but even just the book title would be a big help right now.

TO keep this topic more in line with the board, does anyone have any idea when a paperback version of The Judging Eye is planned to be released? view post


This is a bit off topic... posted 12 October 2009 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by Athjeari, Peralogue

anor277, thank you for the response but I already know it's from The Prince of Nothing. I was hoping that someone would be able to tell me the specific book. Is it from, TDTCB, TWP, or TTT? I am trying to look for this specific section for a class I am teaching.

I suppose I needed to be more clear about the paper back question. Yes, I was referring to the trade paper back, and I am really excited that you already have seen the trade paper back. view post


This is a bit off topic... posted 17 October 2009 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by Athjeari, Peralogue

Thanks for the help guys.

I was able to find the passage.

I love that part. view post


I am a devout follower of Kellhus posted 04 December 2009 in The Judging EyeI am a devout follower of Kellhus by Athjeari, Peralogue

Kellhus does recognize his emotions, you see this at the beginning of TDTCB at the beginning, and when he watches Cnaiur rape Serwe.
Something tugs at him, and this is made known to the reader. Also, don't forget about when he confronts Aurang through Esmi. Kellhus is overwhelmed by emotion for just a few moments.
When Kellhus says that he is something more I don't think it is in regards to emotions, rather Kellhus has been enlightened by the concepts of the Gods and the Outside through sorcery. The Dunyain do not fundamentally believe in Gods or Sorcery (although you could liken Logos to their God, which I think was Bakker's intent). Also, keep in mind that Moenghus was trying to dominate circumstance during the meeting and one path that he tried was trying to revert Kellhus to his previous mission and way of life back at Ishual.
Moenghus believed that a Dunyain would see the issue from his perspective and hoped to dominate Kellhus at that moment by making him see the issue from his perspective. It obviously didn't work. view post


I am a devout follower of Kellhus posted 04 December 2009 in The Judging EyeI am a devout follower of Kellhus by Athjeari, Peralogue

Thorsten, you propose an interesting perspective on Dunyain.
Keep in mind that Kellhus has no interest in feeling at all. He cares not for feeling good about anything, he is simply trying to maximize his efficiency like you said, but by doing so he is simply trying to further attain the Absolute.
I've always thought this a funny concept within the Dunyain; they are bound by the same problems that they see within world born men yet they don't recognize it. The Dunyain are as troubled with tradition and cultural stamps as any other type of person in Earwa This is seen by their rejection of Sorcery. How much closer could the Dunyain be to obtaining the Absolute if they would have recognized Sorcery from the beginning of their isolation?
Kellhus recognizes at the end of TTT that his entire path has been conditioned by Moenghus, hence he realizes that he has simply been a product of circumstance. I still think it is Kellhus' mission/goal to obtain the Absolute. view post


Skin-Spy Concept posted 04 December 2009 in The Warrior ProphetSkin-Spy Concept by Athjeari, Peralogue

I would like to see this art as well. Is there any place that I can still find it? view post


About the Dunyain... posted 04 December 2009 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAbout the Dunyain... by Athjeari, Peralogue

But we have to assume that the Dunyain would know that similar experiences would bombard Kellhus as soon as he left Ishual. If Moenghus left and learned sorcery, why wouldn't Kellhus? The Pragma would have realized this too. By sending Kellhus they would be moving away from their goal of the Absolute because they wouldn't be self moving souls. Moenghus would be acting upon them. By sending Kellhus, the Pragma must have ulterior motives.

I believe the Dunyain know and have more control over what is going on than we know. Kellhus is merely an instrument of the Dunyain in order for the Dunyain to become closer to obtaining the absolute. It also becomes nearly impossible to speculate, accurately, without knowing more of the Dunyain way of life, especially their power structure or organization. view post


The White-Luck Warrior (Book #2) posted 04 December 2009 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The White-Luck Warrior (Book #2) by Athjeari, Peralogue

Does anyone know of any news on this book??

I'm trying to keep the message board going by posting a bit, but I am genuinely curious about whether or not anyone has heard anything regarding the second book in the Aspect Emperor series. view post


A research paper on A Prince of Nothing posted 04 December 2009 in Author Q & AA research paper on A Prince of Nothing by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am presenting a legitimate research paper (possibly my Masters thesis) at the Rhetoric Society of America (RSA) on The Prince of Nothing series, and I would love to get in contact with R. Scott Bakker so I could at least send my work to him when I am done.

Does he ever check the message board anymore?
Does anyone know a good way to get in contact with him?
I realize I could try sending a letter to his publisher, but I wouldn't want to send them my paper for several reasons.

Any help with this would be appreciated. view post


The rhetoric of TPoN posted 04 December 2009 in The Judging EyeThe rhetoric of TPoN by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am presenting a legitimate research paper (possibly my Masters thesis) at the Rhetoric Society of America (RSA) on The Prince of Nothing series, and I would love to get in contact with R. Scott Bakker so I could at least send my work to him when I am done.

Does he ever check the message board anymore?
Does anyone know a good way to get in contact with him?
I realize I could try sending a letter to his publisher, but I wouldn't want to send them my paper for several reasons.

Any help with this would be appreciated.
(I realize this is quite off topic, but I am looking for any help that I can get) view post


The rhetoric of TPoN posted 04 December 2009 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeThe rhetoric of TPoN by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am presenting a legitimate research paper (possibly my Masters thesis) at the Rhetoric Society of America (RSA) on The Prince of Nothing series, and I would love to get in contact with R. Scott Bakker so I could at least send my work to him when I am done.

Does he ever check the message board anymore?
Does anyone know a good way to get in contact with him?
I realize I could try sending a letter to his publisher, but I wouldn't want to send them my paper for several reasons.

Any help with this would be appreciated.
Once again, I apologize for the off topic nature of this post, but I am looking for any help I can get. view post


Complaint to author posted 04 December 2009 in General DiscusssionComplaint to author by Athjeari, Peralogue

If you did this for only 6 hours than you wouldn't have even gotten to the beginning(or end if you will) of the proposition.

You need to do this for 7 hours (or days)

The Logos is without beginning or end

1 hr. for the entire proposition + 1 hour without "end" + 1 hour without "or" + 1 hour without "beginning" + 1 hour without "without" + 1 hour without "is" + 1 hour without "Logos"

Obviously you didn't complete this long enough to be able to see/experience Legion.
And what makes you think it would work to substitute hours for days?
If one were to keep a meditated trance for 7 days, I would almost guarantee that the person would experience something. (Not to mention that you would be 7 days without food).
My problem with it is that I don't believe a person would be able to stay up for 7 straight days in a meditated trance. The most I've ever stayed up in one sitting has been about 41 hours straight and I was sooo freaking exhausted. Although I wasn't able to fall asleep as easily as I thought when I tried to go to bed (oddly enough I couldn't stop my thought processes, they were on overdrive). view post


Sorcery and its parallels in our world posted 12 January 2010 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSorcery and its parallels in our world by Athjeari, Peralogue

I too have thought of the power of sorcery in a way that correlates with our world.
This being said, I am a student/teacher of communication studies and I study rhetoric and theory. I believed that words had power prior to reading PON, but I like the way in which words are used within the universe of PON to generate power/control.

With most characters in the series, the most potent tool used to control and gain power is rhetoric. Granted, Cnaiur and Kellhus demonstrate incredible martial prowess (which could honestly be viewed as a form of rhetoric), but Kellhus, and Cnaiur, use words in order to dominate and control others for the most part.
Look at the way Cnaiur culled Serwe into submission by whispering to her. Look at the way Cnaiur rallied his men in there desperate attempt to hold the city towards the end of TTT. Another example is Cnaiur talking to the caste nobles in the Andiamine Heights.
I shouldn't even have to give examples of Kellhus, but the scene with Leweth, the trapper, is one of my favorite scenes. Kellhus admits he uses words Leweth calls cruel solely to better possess him, but any instance that Kellhus utters words can be seen as using rhetoric for power and control. I like to look at these characters: Kellhus, Cnaiur, Conphas (Conphas talks about the importance of kairos, which is Greek for referring to waiting for the correct moment or timing, which I love), Esmenet (She is great because Esmenet is a women and watching her rise to power through the use of words, and sex, is wonderful in a world dominated by men), Maithanet, and last but not least Moenghus (the dialogue in TTT with Kellhus is spectacular, and I often look at the exchange as a legitimate fight for control with two Dunyain trying to anticipate and direct the other Dunyain solely with the use of words (until Kellhus stabs Moenghus of course). I enjoy the use of words by these characters more so than looking at the sorcerers, but I have definitely thought about exactly what you stated regarding the use of words by sorcerers.

This brings me to the sorcerers of the Three Seas. Sorcerers wield unimaginable power through the use of words. The book shows men pulling walls down solely with words. I also think it is important to bring up that for the most part Bakker refers to sorcerers as "singing" and this, I think, is unique and powerful as well with regards to the meaning behind the words and how they are spoken (delivery if you would, some individuals are FAR better at delivery and know exactly how to speak to instill emotions and provoke action from people.

As a student of rhetoric and communication studies, I like to think that words DO possess this power within our world, as long as you are in the right position or place for your words to be heard, and you speak at the right time (kairos). The examples of CEO's and the President work great, but like I said above, I tend to focus my attention on the actual dialogue within the PON series. view post


Sorcery and its parallels in our world posted 01 April 2010 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSorcery and its parallels in our world by Athjeari, Peralogue

Madness,

That is precisely the point! The inutteral could be seen as what Plato referred to as "the Form" (antirealist), or what Aristotle called the "Universal" (realist)
I think that the fact that the schoolmen are able to reek havoc by understanding inutterals gives credence to the argument that they are master communicators and have developed a God like understanding of language. One could then say that the schoolmen are the most skilled of orators, and master rhetoricians because they are able to understand the "Form", or "Universal" of the actual word.

If you want to get into the linguistic philosophy we can delve into that because I am a huge fan! view post


White-Luck Warrior posted 14 October 2010 in The Judging EyeWhite-Luck Warrior by Athjeari, Peralogue

Oh! Finally some more action on this board!

Alright, while I think it would be cool if Cnaiur did come back, he was a favorite of mine as well, especially if he wasn't 60 years old, I do think you might have a hard time figuring out why Cnaiur would be resurrected by Yatwer.

Cnaiur did not worship the Gods of the Thousand Temples, instead Cnaiur worshipped the No-God, so what might be the reasoning for Yatwer to bring him back to life?

Good theory, I like the descriptions idea, but unless Bakker has a good, sound explanation for Cnaiur becoming a tool for Yatwer, I don't know if I can buy it. view post


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