Three Seas Forum

the archives

dusted off in read-only

  •  

Norsirai Commoner | joined 02 March 2004 | 7 posts


On The Warrior Prophet posted 03 March 2004 in Philosophy DiscussionOn The Warrior Prophet by Norsirai, Commoner

Well, my first foray into this board and I must say, I've never seen this kind of author participation before. That said, second, yet foremost, I am deeply obliged to impart my respect for Mr. Bakker, for his work. So thanks man, I'm surreally digging what you've done so far.

Somewhat on topic, if I may enjoin, it was Hobbes who wrote something along the lines of this (not an exact quote, but close):

'Before the names of Just and Unjust can have a place, there must be some coercive power... ' For, 'where no Covenant hath preceded, every man has a right to everything; and consequently, no action can be Unjust.'

The gist essentially being, that an act is only immoral if it is punishable.

In context to an individual such as Kellhus, it seems that he is not so much astride this moral/immoral 'nothingness,' but a perpetrator of a process which cannot yet be punished. In this work thus far, there is no agency that can judge him or the ways of the Dunyain. No Leviathan, as it were.


Regarding the story, what I'm curious about at this point is if Kellhus will eventually recognize what comes before, as it pertains to himself. How can he be cognizant of the line of causality and thus possibility, when the Dunyain burnt all the scrolls at Ishual and effectively wiped out the remaining, recorded history of the Kuniuric High Kings (presumably, and not counting the knowledge of Achamian's Order). So, would Kellhus be dismayed that his heritage was not in origin or original tradition (for some time, anyway) actually Dunyain?

'What comes before determines what comes after,' so true, yet despite his vast intellect, Kellhus is quite ignorant of the ‘Historie’ of Earwe, and how his lineage factors into that. Will this shake him, or will he grasp the import immediately... Anasurimbor Kellhus is an utterly fascinating character, but I suppose what I'm asking, is how much will he be developing. view post


On The Warrior Prophet posted 14 April 2004 in Philosophy DiscussionOn The Warrior Prophet by Norsirai, Commoner

Loathe as I am to speak for Cu'jara, I think one thing he's trying to tease out is that morality is not an illusion, nor meaningless.

The reductionist stances he posed out for us a few posts earlier, indeed, are ripe with implications. Of which, the first and foremost to my mind is that they lack logical follow-through.

It's easy to think, and perhaps it may even be right (though I do not agree with this) that the pleasure of sex is an illusion merely wrought to heighten fecundity-- that love, might very well be nothing more than the proverbial weaving of straw into gold, to deepen the luster and hue of successful child rearing.

The thoughts of evolutionary psychology that he's briefly related seem to shortsightedly ignore something, as if the purpose behind the drive to propagate is merely to sow the seed, rather than an ordered latticework that frames up the forms of life itself. The two might seem the same, but they only seem that way. It appears to me, that such stoppered streams of thought only observe that the clothes are being mended by the fact that we must wear them, that the dishes and floors are being washed simply because they must be cleansed... while ultimately failing to note the diligent and beautiful stepsister behind all the work, if you will.

That being, that whether the joy of sex is real or a red herring of the psyche, whether love is a fancy bred in the heart or in the head, what seems to be overlooked is that beneath the reality or the unreality, there is an implication of underlying purpose, irregardless of either.

I believe it is this, which he is alluding to, however I'm sure he'll speak on it shortly. Whether I'm right, or wrong. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> view post


Moenghus = Mallahet? posted 11 May 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMoenghus = Mallahet? by Norsirai, Commoner

Quote: &quot;Maltaran&quot;:3egvgfif
This is a theory I'm shamelessly pinching from someone else on the ASOIAF board.[/quote:3egvgfif]

But I forgive you Malt, seeing as how I might have initially been wrong.

I've been thinking a lot about this of late, having done a reread to prep for The Warrior Prophet, and now I'm second guessing my original theory. It seemed just a little too simple, but then again, it seems too simple for Maithanet to be Moengus.

How about both then?

It breaks down like this.

The whys, we don't, but we do know that Moengus left Ishuäl when Kellhus was very young, more or less during his infancy. Whether he was captured or not matters little, as being a Dûnyain there's not much doubt to me that Moengus chose to spend time amongst the Scylvendi as a slave-- why, I don't know. Why he had to purchase his 'freedom' by killing Skiotha I can't do much more than speculate on either, but I shall restrain myself as this theory is fletched as it is, the proverbial arrow knocked and let loose toward the sun.

Most probably, a miss. Be that as it may, bearing on.

We also learn that Moengus marked himself with swazond (did he earn them-- he left the Scylvendi just this side of a slave, I doubt the pride of the People could countenance a slave scarring himself with their ritual) he also dyed his hair black. Then he went south. What he did, where he went, we don't know... but here's what I was thinking.

I'd posit that Moengus did meet the Cishaurim, and he became Mallahet. Did he do this with purpose, well, maybe not at first. Anyways, at first glance, when I saw Mallahet I thought right off, There's our man. But a few things stuck in my craw as time wore on, most notably, how exactly did Maithanet know about the war between the Cishaurim and the Scarlet Spires?

Well, because he's Maithanet too.

Not at the same time, of course.

I believe the person who met with Xerius as envoy of the Cishaurim was someone who was made to resemble Mallahet. I think it was one of the Ikurei's muckety mucks who exclaimed, "You're Mallahet?" I picked up on the quirk of the remark on the reread, the odd accentuation. It seemed like incredulity at his identity, rather than merely awe at who he was-- if that makes any sense.

After all, why were Mallahet's eyes put out?

Now, we know Maithanet came from the south. And in two years or so cleaned out and cleaned up the Thousand Temples, which had been ripe with inborn intrigues and heavy with foreign spies. The men we've met who've had contact with him remark at his preternatural ability to sway others, and there's no doubt how cunning he is. Take that with his blue eyes, most likely covered arms (concealing his swazond) and his ability to recognize the Few, and we have what would seem like one of the Few, but is possibly just a red herring. I'd reckon once known what to look for, a Dûnyain could recognize the Few as well. Further, being not one of the Few, I'd suspect it would be easier to pick up the type of sorcery the Cishaurim employ, seeing as how being one of the Few denotes a certain natural affinity (which Kellhus himself might or might not possess).

Now, I know I'm really reaching here, and not entirely coherent due to the extremity of the hour, but I'll try to be cohesive as I wrap this up.

I believe Moengus left the Scylvendi and eventually made his way to the Cishaurim. During this time he learned of their war with the Scarlet Spires, and somehow of the Consult as well, those ancient enemies of his line. Thus he decided on a course of action.

He set out to conquer the Thousand Temples, as only the Shriah could declare a Holy War.

Judging by the Cishaurim's ability to send visions (evidenced by the fake-Mallahet's treat with Xerius) I believe Moengus then sent the visions to the Dûnyain and his son, to bring Kellhus forth, while he gathered, manipulated and bound most of the Three Seas to bring them to Shimeh.

Why? I don't know with certainty, but why were the Consult in Sumna? Just to watch Achamian?

I don't buy it.

So, I think Moengus is bringing everyone together in what, I suspect, will be a diabolically engineered wedding of the Holy War to the Cishaurim, a desperate bid perhaps (or a cunning cast into the stream of probabilities) in order to fight and have a chance of defeating the Consult and their allies. How else to make the Three Seas believe in the Consult once more, than by manipulating them to slaughter each other for a while, make an exhausted yet simmering peace, and put forth an undeniable 'discovery' of the Consult's culpability to incite them to the Holy of Holy Wars?

From the Thousand Thousand Halls of Ishuäl, to the Thousand Temples... it would seem that the Thousand Fold Thought would be Moengus's.


It's quite possible the Architect had been out-designed. view post


Moenghus = Mallahet? posted 13 May 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMoenghus = Mallahet? by Norsirai, Commoner

In Sumna, Achamian more or less says to Inrau and Esmenet that Psukhe, or Cishaurim 'sorcery,' has such a different set of metaphysics that all the Schools are frightened by its implications. It cannot be 'seen' as sorcery he says, (‘seen’ referenced as how the Few ‘see’ each other here, imo) and also states in that scene or a different one that the Cishaurim are immune to the chorae. So there you go.

What I don't recall however, TH, is where it states or implies that Kellhus can 'see' sorcery?

Now, to clarify, I stated that I think Moengus is Maithanet and Mallahet, as two personas he has donned toward supremacy. However, you misunderstood me. I posited that the Mallahet that met with Xerius to open the dialogue between the Cishaurim and the Nansur was not Moengus/Mallahet, but rather someone made to resemble Mallahet… as Moengus was no longer with the Cishaurim but in Sumna, under his new identity as Shriah of the Thousand Temples (my theory in a nutshell).

As to what he's up to, that's up in the air. At first thought, bearing in mind I'm judging motivation from behind the veneer of my theory, I figured he was gathering everyone. The Call to Battle, if you will. But I'll put aside my Moengus = Maithanet and Mallahet theory for the moment, as the motivations for the whole game are more important.

I'll try to frame my thoughts more cogently than last time.


The burning question that comes to mind then, is obviously 'why?'

Let's assume that as Mallahet, Moengus has covert control of the Cishaurim. The Cishaurim, according to Achamian I believe, are the most powerful nation (culture? league?) in the Three Seas. So, why send Maithanet to subvert control of the Thousand Temples to bring them to Shimeh under the guise of a war of reconquest?

I can think of none other than a Dunyain who could successfully coordinate the assassination of the head of the Scarlet Spires School. So I'm going to put forth the supposition here that Moengus put that together (while with the Cishaurim) in order to ensure that the most powerful enclave of Schoolmen would be on board with Maithanet's Holy War. Again, why would Moengus engineer it this way?

Why else attempt to control the Cishaurim and the Holy War, other than to combine them at some point? It’s manipulation on a massive scale, and it smacks of more than mere conquest. A lesson for Kellhus? For the Consult?

Look, I failed and am in full on ramble more right now, so I’m just going to run with it and toss coherency to the wind.

We don't know much about the Dunyain, but we know (I think) that deception is what they perceive as the greatest crime. Yet the Dunyain we've seen are neck deep in it. So, maybe the only way to teach the Three Seas the truth is to get them into a position where they can learn (whether of the great principles and truths of the Dunyain or of the Consult, I don't know, tho would hazard a guess at the latter).

Recall, that Maithanet is derivative of Mai'tathana in Thoti-Eannorean, which means- Instruction.

And I don't for a minute believe that Moengus would leave the 'lessons' to a student or agent of his own. But, if one of the two is a student of Moengus, my money is on that being Mallahet, not Maithanet.

But why would Mallahet have swazond on his arms, unless Moengus at one time was Mallahet?

So I fall back to my original theory. view post


Moenghus = Mallahet? posted 13 May 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMoenghus = Mallahet? by Norsirai, Commoner

Quote: &quot;Iceman&quot;:28nug5m7
Yes, but how to convince the different factions not only that the Consult exists, but that they ought to combine forces and fight him as well?[/quote:28nug5m7]

As to this, I previously addressed it too. Basically, I figure the only way is to have each side suffer somewhat grievous losses, manufacture a momentary peace, and then use some kind of evidence (or just manipulate both sides into believing) that the Consult was behind getting them to weaken each other... before bringing on their Apocalypse.

It's dicey, I know. How else could it be done?

Even if Moengus could prove beyond a doubt that the Consult exist, by having one of their agents imprisoned at hand perhaps, by itself is not incentive enough to ally. There needs some kind of an inciting imperative for the remainder of the Three Seas and the Cishaurim to become allies against the Consult and their allies, various Nonmen (like the lovely fellow who tore of Geshrunni's face) and Sranc and who knows what else.

Honestly, I think the Consult has a clue. Not only were they in Sumna, not to simply to spy on Achamian, but they've penetrated the Shrial Knight's as well. I doubt they'd be all over the Holy War unless they thought Moengus was all over them. view post


Moenghus = Mallahet? posted 14 May 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMoenghus = Mallahet? by Norsirai, Commoner

No, that's a good point. And hey, I readily admit I could be wrong. After all, the latter bit about the Consult knowing... I'd think they wouldn't suffer the scions of the Anasurimbor line out and about in Earwe once more, if they knew.

To illustrate, the mutual examination of Kellhus and Skeos. Clearly, each were perplexed at the other.

Just one of the many holes in the theory.

It's a work in progress. view post


Moenghus = Mallahet? posted 14 May 2004 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeMoenghus = Mallahet? by Norsirai, Commoner

Point to Harren, about the chorae and the Cishaurim. Checked it out, it's true.

Atanvarno as well-- Inrau wasn't a complete Mandate Schoolman, thus the chorae that brushed his skin didn't kill him immediately, which as we've been told so far is precisely what happens to Schoolmen.

About Maithanet (if he's Moengus) not noticing Sarcellus, Tattooed, another good point. I don't know. Maybe Maithanet's only contact with the Shrial Knight's is through Grandmaster Gotian?

Or maybe Maithanet has noted it, and like Kellhus, did not act?

Lots of questions. view post


  •  

The Three Seas Forum archives are hosted and maintained courtesy of Jack Brown