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White Lord Subdidact | joined 26 December 2004 | 212 posts


Betraying the Gnosis posted 04 September 2005 in Author Q & ABetraying the Gnosis by White Lord, Subdidact

You have misread what I was trying to say.

I think that what happened was that a renegade, who had some grievance against the Nonmen, first taught the Gnosis to Men, opening the floodgates, as it were. Once that first step was made, there was no more reason for the Nonmen to keep concealing it from human sorcerers. That is why they could then teach it freely during the Tutelage. In fact "joint research" would have been in the interests of both parties at that point.

My point was, and is, that all it takes is a single sorcerer who is qualified to train new sorcerers to his same level of proficiency. That is all it takes for the Gnosis or other sorceries to be transmitted from one "community" to another.

This is also exemplified by Achamian, who is in the position to teach Kellhus the Gnosis, (as long as the Seswatha protection mechanism allows it) making him at least his equal, and able in his turn to teach others, causing a sort of chain reaction.

Also the fact that the Norsirai did some "refining" doesn't mean that they made it superior to the original Nonman Gnosis, or, for that matter, that the Nonmen have done no more "refining" of their own. They had all the advantages on their side after all. But we know too little to say anything on this subject. Then there is also the issue of the Nonmen having had an additional 2000 years, after the end of the Apocalypse, to continue their studies, while among Men there is only the Mandate (and the Consult, if it can still be considered a human School), and we don't know if they have remained static, or have been doing any research of their own.

As to Seswatha sacrificing himself, I don't think we can say this with certainty. All it would have taken was for them to wait for him to die of old age, and for him to work his sorcery as he was about to die. Remember he was already very old at that point, and also spent considerable time after the Apocalypse training those that would become the Mandate.

And then again, why do you think there wouldn't have been sorcerers willing to sacrifice themselves, or that some kind of sorcery couldn't be worked with an unwilling soul or whatever is necessary?

Too little data to confirm or deny anything at this point . . . view post


The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 04 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: "Mithfânion":2gqemc50
It's possible, but it would require the Dunyain to change, as I said in my previous post, to completely alter their ideas about how to live. Their principle is to live in utmost seclusion, to not be tainted in any way. As I see it, if the Dunyain are willing to slay themselves because someone interfered with their purity by sending them dreams, they're likely to react similarly suicidal when an invasion force comes along that manages to overcome them.[/quote:2gqemc50]

Again I cannot agree with this.

Are you saying that Moenghus and Kellhus were unable to change after going "outside"? And why didn't they kill themselves when they were forced to abandon the other Dunyain, if they were so uneasy about giving up their way of life, or if they had been utterly incapable, from a psychological/conditioning standpoint, to do so?

And there is no point saying that the other Dunyain would be unable. Especially using as an example Dunyain who haven't even been exposed to the outside world in the first place, and so have no need to change their modus operandi. What they did was an acceptable sacrifice, while they had a stable environment around them. When that changes they certainly won't self-destruct. There would be no point erasing a 2000-year-old project when there is no absolute and inevitable need to do so.

If they are forced to change, then what I said in my previous post is a distinct possibility.

Also, as Scott has said, their present position on isolation has evolved through time. More important still, the Dunyain have a Mission, and that is more important than anything else. The most important thing, in fact, is the survival of the Dunyain at all costs, so the Mission can continue.

And that is worth any sacrifice.

They surely won't turn sentimental if something sours their plans for a while. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by White Lord, Subdidact

Another possible clue to the Thousandfold Thought, and especially Kellhus's experience on the tree in Caraskand. Could it have anything to do with Satori, the state of enlightenment/awakening in Zen Buddhism, or some similar experience?

Am looking forward to some input on this! view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Mithfânion&quot;:3qr5jp3c
. . . and how the Emperor will react.[/quote:3qr5jp3c]

Well, there's some cause to suppose he will react badly (aggressively) and that it won't end well for him. There is a mention by Achamian, in one of his post-Holy War snippets, where he talks about the Emperor after his demise, so there is a clue as well on what we can expect for him. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 06 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

You know what, Mith, it's kinda hard discussing things with you. Every time I say something, you say this is just my speculation, or that I'm pulling these ideas out of thin air. Well, I'd like to know what makes your statements, or your beliefs on the Dunyain more right than mine? On the face of available evidence I'd say that my position is somewhat stronger than yours. You simply fail to address some very pertinent observations I made on the Dunyain and their possible behavior. And if you choose to dismiss them or gloss over them there is no point in discussion. In fact this last post of yours basically says more or less what I said in the first place, that they'll change if they have no other choice. I think I made that clear. Also that I think they really won't have any other choice but to involve themselves. So I repeat: if you choose to misread/ignore most of what I say there is no point in keeping this up . . .

But I think I'll wait for someone else to comment on this. In fact, I'd really like for someone to show this board isn't deader than a doornail for a change. Show some life for crying out loud! It's depressing when you have to wait a week or a month for someone to respond. Actually makes me want to quit posting altogether . . .

But enough of my rants. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 06 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:1wg9p9ot
But it seems to me that allying with human nations isn't their only choice - not even their most likely. Based on the Consult's complete ignorance of the Dûnyain until very recently and to the context of the prologue, it seems that their reaction to War was to flee, not to ally with mankind's defenders. Why should their reaction this time around be any different? If the Consult besieges Ishuäl (or shows sign of wanting to besiege it), could they not simply flee that old citadel and go hide elsewhere (i.e., Zeüm)?[/quote:1wg9p9ot]

About the Dunyain fleeing war. This ties in nicely with what I have been saying: they did so in order to preserve themselves and their mission.

As to what they might do in the present/future . . . well, they're a lot stronger now than they were then, so to flee without fighting may not be an option. As to what Mith says, that if they are disturbed they'll go out with a collective suicide, this just won't happen.

But to address your other point on them finding some other refuge, this too is possible, even probable maybe, but I also see individual Dunyain choosing/being ordered to offer their services in exchange for shelter.

Then also, the whole point of moving from point A to point B would entangle them in events they might find a bit hard to resist themselves . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 06 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Mithfânion&quot;:1b6jq7ip
That being said, I feel similarly about the state of the board. Perhaps the two of us have simply resulted to cannibalism <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->[/quote:1b6jq7ip]

Yes, I think you may be right . . . <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> And let's leave it at that. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Nonmen who and what are they? posted 07 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Deerow&quot;:1mbghiyk
What would a robot be to someone who has no concept of advance mechanics? Well, it would be a "non-man."[/quote:1mbghiyk]

I think you should explain how robots could suffer from bioweapons, namely the Womb-Plague Scott mentioned. Or why robots should have a "womb" in the first place. Or why a robot should bleed and go crazy like the Nonman in the Prologue of tDtCB does.

Really, this notion has nothing to support it, and in the framework of the story is rather silly really.

Then there is also the fact that Earwa was meant to be a pre-scientific world, and the arrival of the Inchoroi was a disruption that is still being healed. There would have been no know-how to manufacture mechanisms of this complexity, and who would have manufactured them in the first place?

In short, not much of an idea, and I'm prepared to bet it'll become clear pretty soon, if not with TTT then in the next book.

It would also be useful if the original poster would add more than that criptic one-liner, so we could have some idea of what he was trying to say and why . . . view post


Nonmen who and what are they? posted 08 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

I should also add that they are sorcerers too. And sorcery is inextricably bound to flesh and blood.

Not to mention that Scott has said what the Nonmen represent: fallen elves. So far as I know, Tolkien didn't have robotic elves in his books . . . <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

About the Inchoroi: well, who knows if in our own universe there are no other societies/species living like the Earwans do, and other more technically advanced ones living like the Inchoroi seemed to do. There is nothing off-putting in combining the two. After all, even if the Inchoroi were technically advanced, after all these millennia they have obviously been absorbed into Earwa, and I guess they had to give up on their technological advantages a long time ago, so that now they are legitimate players in what is going on, with no more potential advantages than anyone else.

And this is a long shot from postulating some robotic/mechanical societies on Earwa, prior or posterior to the Inchoroi's arrival. The only ones who had the means were the Inchoroi, and we all know they chose to go down another road. Quite the opposite in fact. It'll always be easier to manufacture biological rather than mechanical "life". view post


Now Reading... posted 08 September 2005 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;AjDeath&quot;:11t7ag45
[...] since the New Harry Potter came out. I can't stomach it. And no, I didn't read it, and I never want to or will.[/quote:11t7ag45]

With you on this one.. Never have, never will . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Mystery of the Winged Elephant posted 09 September 2005 in Author Q &amp; AThe Mystery of the Winged Elephant by White Lord, Subdidact

<!-- s:o --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_surprised.gif" alt=":o" title="Surprised" /><!-- s:o --> <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 09 September 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:30sficcj
The ripping-his-own-heart passage was a metaphore; since attaining/discovering TTT, Khellus feels that all things are his and that he is everywhere; in that perspective, Serwë's heart is his own heart. Whether that's true or not, we'll see in TTT <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:30sficcj]

Right you are. This question came up before, and I don't know how people miss the reference to Serwe's and not Kellhus's heart . . . view post


Also read TTT and puzzled - Warning : spoilers ! posted 06 February 2006 in Author Q &amp; AAlso read TTT and puzzled - Warning : spoilers ! by White Lord, Subdidact

If I'm not mistaken, Scott mentioned that the Chorae Hoard was kept in the city of Sakarpus, and since that city survived the Apocalypse, it's likely it is still there and waiting for whatever is to happen . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Also read TTT and puzzled - Warning : spoilers ! posted 06 February 2006 in Author Q &amp; AAlso read TTT and puzzled - Warning : spoilers ! by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:bzl9o251
Oh and I also remember another question I forgot to ask; in the Glossary it says that Atrithau was founded on "anarcane" ground (I think it also says somewhere that's the reason it survived the Apocalypse). However I don't know what that word means and I haven't found it in the dictionnary; do you know what that would mean? Or maybe it's a typo, but I'm almost sure I saw it more than once...[/quote:bzl9o251]

Anarcane should be the opposite of "arcane", which in our context means sorcery. So anarcane ground should make it impossible for sorcery to function (an effect similar to that of Chorae?). view post


Inchoroi Origins/Aims posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi Origins/Aims by White Lord, Subdidact

Let me preface this by saying that I haven't yet read TTT (still waiting for it to be delivered...) but I did proofread the Glossary, so I'm not totally clueless <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> . . .

Anyway, someone asked if Sranc gave birth during the No-God's first manifestation (and I take it that the implication is that if they had souls, even they would have been barren), and I think this is answered in the entry on Sranc in the Glossary. It basically states that pregnant Sranc females were observed fighting alongside the males or something to that effect.

Now, that should answer the question of whether they could procreate or not. I don't think however that this automatically means they don't have souls. Couldn't the No-God's effect on births be selective? And what of the Scylvendi, were they also barren during the Apocalypse, and would it have made sense for them to fight for the No-God under those circumstances? Was this mentioned anywhere in TTT? view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by White Lord, Subdidact

We already had a similar discussion [url=http&#58;//forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?t=657&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=0:3j3liij6](link)[/url:3j3liij6] more than half a year before TTT came out. I think it still holds real well, despite all recent additions in what we know. An interesting read in retrospect. (BTW anor277 was inflexible even then, and even then I didn't really see what was so wrong or impossible with this whole idea of sorcerous skin-spies). view post


A poll on souls posted 24 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtA poll on souls by White Lord, Subdidact

I'd go with option 2: They can gain souls in very special circumstances. Just a gut feeling, nothing I can substantiate with text evidence . . . view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 07 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

You make several mistaken assumptions in your post. First of all, there were Eannorean sorcerers, even before the migrations. Check one of the old threads in this forum. Scott told us about the clashes between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, i.e. Prophets who used sorcery. The Eannoreans also invaded Earwa using Chorae, which were given them by the Inchoroi. view post


Schools of the 3 seas posted 08 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, actually I think zarathustra may be referring to something Scott said in answer to my question of there being any Gnostic School hiding in what had been the Ancient North.

He said there was one. So that excludes any known School from the Three Seas. On the other hand, I'm a bit confused by his answer, because, even though we knew then of the Mangaecca and Golgotterath, I think he could have been referring to it. If not, well, that's interesting too . . . a third Gnostic School, doing who knows what up North.

Then there's the question of the Knights of Tryse . . . Mithfanion thinks they might be reinstituted in the Three Seas, but from the wording of that entry in the Glossary, it's possible they actually survived and are still in hiding. After all, some of the witnesses of the Celmomian Prophecy were Knights of Tryse . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

This is what Scott had to say in my question thread:

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:1phreyx1
So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen. At the moment, that feels plenty deep, and it precedes the Tusk by quite a few thousand years. I haven't been looking at the history of Earwa so much from the standpoint of an 'absolute observer,' as from from the standpoint of what is known or thought to be known at the time of the Holy War. This isn't a rule that I adhere to, just a tendency I seem to have largely followed. There are things from the time of the Tusk I do want to flesh out, such as the conflict between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, the question of how the surviving Inchoroi brought Chorae, the 'Tears of God' to the Five Tribes before the Breaking of the Gates, and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men). Stuff like that.[/quote:1phreyx1] view post


Schools of the 3 seas posted 08 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:348diovd
Yea, for some reason WL I have a feeling Scott at the time was refering to the Mangaecca when talking about another Gnostic School in the Ancient North. We sort of knew about them already but we didn't really have alot of details I don't think, at least until we had access to the TTT glossary.[/quote:348diovd]

Yes, but come to think of it, when I asked that question, I also mentioned how some cities in the North survived the Apocalypse, how it is a very big place, full of places where a group of surviving Gnostic sorcerers could hide and keep a School going. Also we pretty much knew from the start that the Consult had sprung from the Mangaecca and that it used the Gnosis. So I don't think he misinterpreted my question, in fact he accompanied his answer with a wink... Who knows... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> You will admit that even the Consult would find it hard to have direct control/knowledge of everything taking place over half a continent... And then, how many forgotten Nonman mansions are out there as a convenient hideout? Then you have the entries in the Glossary, talking about the destruction of Kuniuri and its people, who were either "scattered or enslaved"... The scattered part makes you think.

Also, while I'm at it, I wanted to put forward an idea: When thinking of how the Dunyain originally found Ishual, i.e. escaping from the Sranc, going in the direction of the Demua mountains, and Injor-Niyas, it came to me they could have been deliberately looking for protection from the Nonmen. Now if more human groups did manage to get there, there could be a significant human element in Injor-Niyas at present. This also has to do with the rebirth of the Nonmen. Basically, they can reproduce with humans, after all the Anasurimbor are the result of such a union. My thinking is that they could have tried that long ago, and in twenty centuries there could be a Nonman population, both male and female, with minimal human genes... This is certainly possible, but my question to you all is how likely is it? Do you think the Nonmen would have considered this approach? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:14m6ewge
Thanks WL, I tried searching for that thread but didn't find it.[/quote:14m6ewge]

No prob... Fact is I tried using the search engine too, with no results (it doesn't seem to work that well lately...). Thankfully I knew exactly where the quote was... view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by White Lord, Subdidact

Since we know nothing of what makes a &quot;bastard&quot; (or if there ever are any bastards in the noble houses) in the various Earwic societies, I think it's a bit premature to talk of illegitimate Anasurimbors (especially by applying our own real-world standards).

In fact, text evidence would go against considering any child of Kellhus a bastard. The line of Anasurimbor at the time of the Apocalypse could also be considered a bastard line since Anasurimbor Sanna-Jephera (direct ancestor of Celmomas) was a bastard offspring of Omindalea's rape by a Nonman.

Then the unnamed Anasurimbor in the prologue to TDtCB is presented as the son of a concubine, and considers himself a prince, which hardly tallies with someone who has no rights or is shunned.

My guess is that all it takes for someone to inherit in Earwa is the consent of the head of the House, provided the &quot;bastard&quot; does have the right blood. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 16 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

Been very busy lately preparing exams... still am for that matter (does this ever end... <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: -->), which is why I haven't been very active here. But you can expect me and my questions back with a vengeance in a bit... <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> view post


Nilnameshi posted 03 May 2006 in The Warrior ProphetNilnameshi by White Lord, Subdidact

I don't exactly understand what you mean by &quot;pagans&quot;. That is a totally out-of-place term to use here. Even the Inrithi are pagans to Fanim eyes. The Nilnameshi worship the same gods of the Inrithi cultic religions (the Kiunnat) with their own twist added to them. (Check the Glossary entry on Nilnamesh for more details.) Nilnameshi seem to be very self-absorbed with their esotic cults, and are not generally expansionist, but due to high population density they are also a hard nut to crack, since even the Kianene have not been able to conquer them.

As to the ethnic composition of Nilnamesh, Scott told me it is inhabited by both Ketyai (majority) and Satyothi, with possibly a good number of people being darker-skinned than your average Ketyai due to a Satyothi admixture.

As to your question on the lack of Asians, well there are the Xiuhianni, but they are still living in Eanna, and they would be your equivalent of Asians. BTW, Scott said that no one race had a one-on-one correspondence with real-world ones, so, for instance, the Ketyai run the gamut from the peoples of the Indian subcontinent to the Middle East, while the Norsirai that of the Caucasian peoples, and the Xiuhianni should cover most of the Far East. view post


Su'juroit, Cû'jara-Cinmoi and Cûnuroi Witch-Kings posted 25 August 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSu'juroit, Cû'jara-Cinmoi and Cûnuroi Witch-Kings by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Catalyst&quot;:1gwifeno
1. Who is Su'juroit?[/quote:1gwifeno]

Well, Su'juroit was the great Cûnuroi Witch-King, and here what we know about him stops (although we can speculate, which I'll do later... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->).

2. What exactly is the significance of a Cûnuroi Witch-King?


Cûnuroi society was/is divided in castes. The Ishroi were the warriors/rulers. So the fact that a Quya (sorcerer caste) could rule would be indicated by the term Witch-King.

In fact, Scott said that the Nonmen have no rule forbidding sorcery, so I guess even an Ishroi with the gift of sorcery that was in line for a throne would be called a Witch-King. I'm also a bit unclear about the precedence of castes between the Quya and the Ishroi. I attribute some sort of priestly/religious role to the Quya as well (although that is simply my impression, not something that is shown by the books at this point), so that would put them above the Ishroi.

There is also the fact that since in those times there were no Chorae, nothing could have stopped the Quya from dominating everyone else. The fact that there were kings, and not only Witch-Kings would indicate some sort of compromise or an accepted role for sorcery in that society.

Still, I would say that these Witch-Kings, if there were more than one of them, were remarkable sorcerers who went outside their role of priests/councilors and chose to use the Gnosis as the basis of their secular rule.


3. What is the legend of the 'Third Phrase' and Su'juroit?


Well, the 'Third Phrase' refers to the third string (in this case a second inutteral string) that is used when working sorcery. If you followed what Achamian said when teaching Kellhus the Gnosis, even working with two strings (one utteral and one inutteral) is incredibly difficult. And we all know what Kellhus is, what he can do, and more importantly what he will be able to do.

The fact that Su'juroit possessed the ability to use a second inutteral string (the only one in the entire course of Nonman history, that we know of; and Nonmen being a cut or two above your average Man as well...) suggests that he was every bit as remarkable as Kellhus is likely to be.

And who knows what Su'juroit did, and in what way he impacted Nonman society. (I suspect we might find out in later books, if the connection between Su'juroit and Kellhus is more than guesswork on my part...)

I could even suggest that he had a role to play in his time that might be similar to that of Kellhus in this Age; after all, is pure intelligence everything one needs to use the Third Phrase, and perhaps go beyond it, or are other requirements necessary...?

Thanks alot!


You're welcome, provided my post did help in any way... I haven't opened the books in some time and may be a bit rusty to participate in discussions just now... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 02 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

What exactly makes you think that the term 'Old Name' applies only to the Inchoroi?

If you check the Glossary, it says that it is a term used for all the original members of the Consult. And what is the Consult? According to that same Glossary, it is a cabal of magi and generals, which includes the Inchoroi, but also Mekeritrig, Shaeonanra and possibly many others.

After all, there was no Consult before the Mangaecca became it, so it makes no sense to use the term only for the Inchoroi. view post


Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 08 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Incu-Pacifico&quot;:38dwxmhu
So does anyone know where Shaeonanra is mentioned? And if anyone has the link on the nature of damnation, that'd be sweet![/quote:38dwxmhu]

Well, Shaeonanra (or Shauriatas) is mentioned in the Glossary at the end of TTT, and also, en passant, in the story proper. There you can read all about him redescovering a means of avoiding damnation by soul-trapping sorceries.

About the Damnation issue, well I know there are a couple of posts here where Scott has a bit to say on the issue, but it's also been dealt with in the books, so that you could easily get the picture from there as well.

Basically, if your actions are displeasing to the Gods, as soon as you die (i.e. your soul takes the road to the Outside) you are liable to spend an eternity of torture as a guest of any one God (or demon) in the Outside.

Obviously, if you have good reasons to believe this is what will happen to you, you will do your best to avoid your soul going to the Outside in the first place. This is what Shauriatas did, and all other Consult members do the same: they use Tekne-made shells to transfer their souls to, so they avoid passage to the Outside.

Since this is a bit risky (you never know when someone will kill you, without you having time to do soul transfer), they decided to act on knowledge the Inchoroi obtained during their researches on the Outside: by removing a sufficient number of souled creatures (in this case Men and Nonmen) from the world, they would make the Gods powerless to affect Earwa, so even if they did die, the only thing that could happen to them would be Oblivion, not Damnation.

This is basically what drives the Consult and what caused the Apocalypse.

As to what Shauriatas is doing right now, I guess he is still busily sniffing around the Ark (it is said he went mad studying it) looking to unearth new secrets. If I'm not mistaken he's mentioned as one of the principal culprits for everything the Consult has been able to rediscover about the Tekne. view post


Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 08 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

Here is something by Scott on the issue of Damnation:

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:2ttiwrhr
They [the Scylvendi] don't believe they have any afterlife. You have to remember too, that just as most religious people have no consistent, systematic understanding of 'noumenal world' that brackets the mundane, neither do the Scylvendi, nor the Inrithi, though the latter have many scholarly accounts of what awaits them.

Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.

I could go on, but most of all this will be covered in the encyclopaedic glossary in TTT.[/quote:2ttiwrhr] view post


Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 09 October 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Incu-Pacifico&quot;:3cfl6ht8
Thanks White Lord, for both those posts! The second post with Scott's words was especially enlightening, specifically the bit about &quot;certain acts&quot; attracting the attention of outside agencies.[/quote:3cfl6ht8]

No problem... always glad to be of help... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Incu-Pacifico&quot;:3cfl6ht8
I guess one such act is the act of sorcery - we know certain kinds of socery (Daimos) *definitely* attracts unwanted attention. But it would seem *any* kind of sorcery results in damnation, though no mention is made of what happens to non-Daimotic sorcerers. What is the nature of their damnation?[/quote:3cfl6ht8]

You see, I'm not so sure that quite any use of sorcery results in Damnation. This is simply what most people have thought ever since the Chronicle of the Tusk was composed.

What counts, in my opinion, are the actions sorcerers commit after they convince themselves they are damned a priori. If you believe yourself damned, and that you will suffer for all eternity after you die, no matter what you do, for the simple reason that you're a practicing sorcerer, that certainly won't work towards bringing out your better self... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

We must also consider that the Nonmen didn't hold this belief, and also that Kellhus rescinded the Tusk law regarding sorcery (and I think he was right in this, divine inspiration or no...).

Quote: &quot;Incu-Pacifico&quot;:3cfl6ht8
This also begs the question of what the Inchoroi were doing to attract the attention of Outside agencies that would cause the Inchoroi people to want to seal themsevles away.[/quote:3cfl6ht8]

Well, they were being true to their nature, (or what they think to be their nature), something of which you have seen throughout the books. Ultimately Damnation or Redemption are dictated by people's actions, and the Inchoroi sealed their fate by doing &quot;what they must&quot; to quote Aurang... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


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