Three Seas Forum

the archives

dusted off in read-only

  •  

Grallon Candidate | joined 20 November 2004 | 32 posts


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 22 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: "anor277":2krs6yrp
...

Maithanet is another mystery – there’s some evidence that he is a skin spy, (i) he could recognize Achamian as a sorceror (via Seswatha), and (ii) the 1000 temples has apparently been purged of spies and the Consult had a hand in some of the purging. If this is the case it would not be beyond Kellhus to demonstrate (by unmasking the Shriah if he makes a pilgrimage to Shimeh) that the Inrithi worshipped not the God but the Consult…So when does the Thousandfold Thought come out?[/quote:2krs6yrp]


As someone suggested elsewhere, and as alluded above, the TT is likely the transformation of a crusade of the Inrithi against the Fanin in a crusade to save mankind. In other words the repudiation, first by Moenghus, then his son, of Ishual's mission. I think M, who was the first Dunyain (Dunedain anyone <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->) to venture into the world in a long time, stumbled upon the Consult early and recognized them as the ultimate threat (what good is it to be superior to the world-born if there are no world-born left to measure against... ?!).

So I think that after studying the situation he elaborated a strategy to:

1) position himself where he could possibly influence the Consult (through their agents) - with the Fanim, i.e the Ceshaurim

2) force the Dunyein to send his son to him (the "botched" return to Ishual), calculating that Khellus would come to the same ... appreciation of the situation on the way as he did (and helping him through Cnaeur)

3) making it possible for a (foreseen) Holy War to happen - which could not happen without the support of the most powerful School in the 3 Seas (hence the unexplained attack on the Scarlet Spires was sure to drive them into accepting the foreseen Shrial's offer)

4) planting the seed for the subversion of said Holy War by Khellus - which would thus insure:

- the eventual discredit of the Thousand Temples as a source of moral authority (Maithenet bein a skin spy)

- the forging of the Inrithi horde into an army devoted to the Cause

Both serving with the goal of:

5) unifying the 3 Seas under one command

6) once all the above is accomplished *then* the Mandate would fall in line and with the Gnosis secure in one hand, the Psukha in the other, the *real* war will begin.

-----

Since I didn't know about more projected books I thought we'd see the conclusion with the last one.

Let us hope the author does not fall into Jordan's (or more and more it seems, Martin's) trap of thining the story to publish more books than necessary <!-- s:x --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif" alt=":x" title="Mad" /><!-- s:x -->



G. view post


R Scott Bakker in the UK posted 27 November 2004 in Tour and Signing InformationR Scott Bakker in the UK by Grallon, Candidate

When will you be in Montreal ? I would meet with you. I think you're quite attractive for someone your age <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->



G. view post


Nonmen who and what are they? posted 07 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by Grallon, Candidate

They're Earwa's equivalent of Middle-Earth's Eldars: more powerful in mind and body than humans, more beautiful too. So far Mr. Baaker has show great skill (as in very well done) in borrowing snippets of other stories and making them his own. Think of Khellus' people and their training - mirror image of the Bene Gesserit.



G. view post


Nonmen who and what are they? posted 07 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by Grallon, Candidate

Btw - has there been any hint as to the goal(s) of the Inchoroi &amp; the Consult ? Destruction or enslavement of the humans ? Why else would fertility be stoped ...



G. view post


TTFT Available Now In Canada posted 16 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtTTFT Available Now In Canada by Grallon, Candidate

Got my copy today <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Re-reading the whole thing now.

When's the next series due <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> ??



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 24 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Someone will have to clarify this for me: the Inchoroi wanted to destroy humans &amp; non men to 'seal the world' ?! Are we talking about a physical phenomenon or a philosophical concept ?

-----


Some observations about TTT:


- the pacing was not balanced: too much ruminations in the first part for the quickened rythm that followed in the last part;

- though I understand the necessity to set the stage for the next book I felt that Comphas was definately short changed. *scowls*;

- similarly the unexplained falling in line of the entire Mandate behind Khellus was annoying. Entirely too much time was wasted with Achamian's redundant feelings for the whore and Cnaiurs madness while not enough was devoted to fleshing out other sub plots;

- by the end of TTT it seem to me Khellus has grown so much - so fast - that the Consult does't look very threatening anymore. One can only imagine what he will be after 20 years of learning/practicing/improvising on the Gnosis... If he trains more like him - why the Second Apocalypse will be a walk in the park. And that's clumsy storytelling to deflate your main villain so fast.

- Overall this last book was less satisfying than expected.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 24 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Nauticus&quot;:3gdrqluy
...

I'm not sure. I don't know if it's clumsy storytelling, as it might have been intentional. But I don't see the Consult any less of a threat. Yes, Kellhus is powerful, but we haven't seen any of the incarnations of the Tekne (Old Science). Keep in mind, the No-God will probably be resurrected, and the Heron Spear is missing.[/quote:3gdrqluy]


During the course of 2 books we heard about the dread Inchoroi; about how the world went through an apocalypse, about the slaughter of peoples and the slaughter of nations... Here we see Khellus facing down an Old Name, killing skin spys at will. And with his mastery of the Gnosis (and whatever new inventions he'll come up with over the next 20 years - I don't see what could stop him). The No-God ? I don't know what it is - but by the descriptions it looks like some sort of self aware machine. Again with the expended Gnosis I don't see how much trouble it could be. Anything with a physical form can be destroyed with the application of enough energy.

I don't know it just seem khellus has been turned into a god - and I dislike the implications.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:1r0fe5yz
...

The issue of why the Consult wants to destroy Men and Nonmen, was a metaphysical issue. Men (and probably Nonmen too) are portals through which the Outside can take expression into the world. As long as Men exist, the Gods will have influence over Eärwa and its souls, which means that some souls will be Redeemed and some others will be Damned. The more you kill Men, the less influence the Outside has over the world, until one day they become so remote that the world is "sealed" - a state described by Khellus as when "The Gods howl like wolves at silent gates" If (when?) that happens, then the possibilities of Redemption and Damnation no longer exist and all souls fall into Oblivion upon death. This is the ultimate goal of the Consult.

The Inchoroi know themselves damned - the topoi, the glimpse into the Outside, that exists in Golgotterath leaves little ambiguity as to what their after-life fate is. As for the Men, well at first they were sorcerers of the Maengedda and as we know in the pre-Khellus era everyone believed sorcerers were damned. After all the crimes they've commited throughout the millenia, they certainly are now. But if they seal the world, they won't have to suffer the eternal consequences of their actions.
[/quote:1r0fe5yz]


Scott Bakker is apparently a student of philosophy and it shows. All this metaphysical claptrap is absurd. Why would aliens be bound by moral considerations when they've never burdened themselves with such in the past ? Look no further than the Dunyein themselves - they are totally amoral. And damnation is only possible when you have a moral compass to measure yourself against. Besides the assumption that there are gods is annoying.

The way I see it the Inchoroi were/are entirely devoted to the Teknhe (genetics and regular science - in fact they're Bakker's Tleilaxus - as the Dunyein are his Bene Gesserit/Mentats) - which makes them materialists. So for them to entertain an existantial crisis is simply implausible.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;zarathustra&quot;:1ind63ur
...

However the Three Seas itself seems in less good shape. The Holy War will have all but destoyed all active armies in the region. Plus the two most powerful schools have been devastated/destroyed. This would leave all nations vulnerable to being overrun by Sranc. Khellus would have to immedaitely start trainning all the Three Seas children for war. It would be my guess that Aspect Emperor will begin with Kellhus hard pressed and needing to go to Zeum to persuade them to lend their armies in support. But then he can probably teleport himself there...[/quote:1ind63ur]


Khellus' goal is clearly to harness the Three Seas completely under his control. No doubt he'll resurrect the old Empire and probably merge it with the Thousand Temple - creating, in effect, a theocracy. The surviving schools will likely be absorbed by the Mandate.

There's also the Dunyein themselves to consider. We already know Khellus sees them as limited - but still useful. Yet I don't see how he could go back there and convince them to work for him. I suppose he could force them now that he has the Gnosis... On the other hand the Consult is actively looking for them so perhaps they will find Ishual first and use them - or destroy them...

And there's Achamian whom we know survive since he writes the Chronicles of the Holy War (interestingly one of the last entry of his chronicles mention he has to watch what he writes ... under surveillance I guess). Besides being a chronicler I can't see what kind of meaningful role he might have in the future. He's now considered an heretic and an outcast wizard. Unless Bakker tries to spin some more threads with the whore ? I hope not - this was getting tedious already by the end of The Warrior Prophet.

One unknown is the Scylvendi. Since Cnaiur survived my guess is he'll federate the remnants of his people and oppose the new God-Emperor. Perhaps with Achamian' help.

We shall see.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:1ltgal2n
A few things to reply to:

Yes Scott is a student of Philosophy, he was/is persuing a Ph.D in the subject. The Metaphysics of the world, in my opinion, are very well thought out and interwoven with some of the more "traditional" conventions of fantasy. (i.e. gods, etc)...[/quote:1ltgal2n]


I didn't say the cosmology wasn't coherent or plausible from Earwa's inhabitants point of view. But this is a primitive world whose understanding of the universe is limited. My point was that it isn't credible for the Inchoroi, who are amoral materialists through &amp; through, to buy in all this cosmology. They *are* from the outside - they know better. Why would they start fearing for their souls just because they landed on that particular world ?!


G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:2fm2wc7q
...

They hope for Oblivion because there is no chance for Redemption in the conventional sense. They passed through the Outside in some sort of craft for lack of a better word so I do not think they are native Agencies of the Outside, they simply travelled through it.

[/quote:2fm2wc7q]


Oh well if there are 'real' deities involved...

I understood the Outside to be a simple misrepresentation by the humans of Earwa - much like our own heliocentric view before Galileo. And I recall a discussion between Achamian and Esmenet about this topic where he told her the non-men beleived the stars to be other suns far away (which they are) instead of holes to the 'Outside'. And so I assumed that with that and aliens woven into the story the rest was mere superstition.

A materialist' point of view as it were <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->



G. view post


Just finished TTT posted 26 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; AJust finished TTT by Grallon, Candidate

I personally find it a bit over the top - but we've discussed it elsewhere <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->


Anyhow I'm curious about the eugenics the Dunyain conducted over the centuries. They started with a small gene pool when they took over Ishual - so one may presume they brought in world-born from time to time. Perhaps even some non-men females ? And obviously the Ansurimbor blood line was nurtured ... Could the Dunyain be aware of the Celomnas Prophecy ?




G. view post


Correspondences posted 26 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; ACorrespondences by Grallon, Candidate

This may not be the best sub-forum for such a thread; if that's the case feel free to move it.

-----

In every piece of fiction I read I amuse myself trying to determine the origins of certain idea/concept/character; for instance the obvious references to the judeo-christian cosmology in Tolkien's work (Lucifer as Melkor, etc).

I did the same with Scott's PoN (in fact I mentioned some of those perceived references elsewhere on the site). I wonder if other people saw similar correspondences.



Cenei: Rome
Kiraneas: Classical Greece
Kian: Islam
Nansurium: Byzantium
Shigek: Mesopotamia
Amoteu: Palestine
The Scylvendi: the Huns
The Non-Men: elves
Nenciphon: Ctesiphon (capital of Parthia)

- The Thousand Temples: the Catholic Church/ the Orthodox Church

- The Shria: the Pope or Patriarch (incidently I don't know if it was even intended but I laughed when I saw the concordance between the word Shria and the adjective 'shrill' - which is quite apt for a religious authority figure <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->)

- Ajencis: Aristotle

- Fane: Mohamed

- Inri Sejenus: Jesus Christ

- The Dunyain: Dune's Bene Gesserit/Mentats (but also a reference to Tolkien's Dunedain - kings of men)

- The Inchoroi: Dune's Tleilaxu

- Khellus: Dune's Paul Muad'hib

- The Way of the Limbs &amp; Faces: Dune's Prajna-Bindu techniques

- The Hall of Thousand Mirrors: Dune's mentat state (or trap) of infinite mirrors (mentioned in Heretics of Dune)

- The Inchoroi's compulsion techniques: Dune's Bene Gesserit sexual conditioning &amp; the Honored Matriarchs' sexual compulsions

- The skin-spies: the face-dansers (only discernable by Reverend Mothers / here by the Dunyain)

- The Inchoroi Syntheses: Dune's ghola bodies used by the Tleilaxu Masters


I'm sure there are plenty more.



G. view post


Correspondences posted 26 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; ACorrespondences by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:1bqza04l
Inspiration-wise, the correspondances are certainly not one to one the way you line them up, Grallon. Kellhus, for instance, actually owes very little to Paul Atriedes, though the skin-spies are obvious rip-offs of Herbert's face-dancers. The Scylvendi owe nothing to the Huns, but quite abit to the Scythians and Sarmatians. I see Shigek as decidedly more Egyptian than Mesopotamian. And the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu.

Otherwise, the world is meant to be a blur of our own. The significance, I would argue, lies in the many differences.[/quote:1bqza04l]

Scott,


I'm not talking about (or - the gods forbid - accusing of) plagiarism <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> All of us, in our respective capacity, are the sum of many influences and I'm simply looking for - as I said - correspondances.

This said, I presume you're familiar with GGKay's work ? Embeded in his books is the theory (or conceit) that his own particular worlds (Fionovar, the world of Sarantium, Tigana, Al-Rassan), along with many others, are avatars of what he calls the "prime world" (Earth) and that the stories happening there are some sort of echos of what happene(s)d on the 'prime material'. One get a sense this was a penultimate homage to Tolkien.

This thought crossed my mind while I was drawing those correspondances. What are your thoughts about this ? Do you share the conceit ?



G. view post


Just finished TTT posted 26 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; AJust finished TTT by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:24dv11nw
...

What is it, exactly, that you find over the top, Grallon? Did you think it unrealistic? If so, I'm not sure how I could have better motivated Kellhus's ascendency, given the time Achamian spends worrying over the Gnosis + Kellhus combo... Or is your concern narrative? I know some people complain that Kellhus is too powerful for the story, to which I always reply: 'Which story would that be?' It seems to turn on an unwarranted assumption as to where things are headed.

...[/quote:24dv11nw]


I would have to say narrative.

As I commented in another thread I apprehended the story with a materialist biais. After all, it is my understanding that you yourself posited the Dunyain as the ultimate materialists - through their deterministic motto: 'what comes before determine what comes after'. In that context, the Inchoroi, presented as aliens whose ship crashed on Earwa and who are using the 'old science', supported &amp; confirmed this bent. Then we see Khellus' ordeal on that tree, and the 'revelations' he has. And from there the whole narrative seem to go on a tangent with speculations about the Outside (which personally I took to be a mis-representation of space) and its (presumed) ascendent denizens - then back with the Inchoroi and their (suddenly revealed) fear of damnation... I guess I found it was jarring. I kept wondering why would superior (as in more knowledgable) beings be preoccupied with moral considerations that (IMO) must have been totally absent before their arrival.

And so in that regard it seemed to me that Khellus was no longer a superior human being due to his training (as infered in the previous books - and which I found both plausible &amp; credible) - but rather because of some new insights into an overarching metaphysical reality which wasn't present in the first place. And from then on the character's nature changed. In one book you have a man whose superior abilities could be conceived in a rational manner and in the next he becomes - as you wrote - 'more'. We had no clues about this possibility before. So yes, in other words I saw this as a rupture in your previously established narrative flow.

Furthermore, I undertsand you're planning the 'Aspect Emperor' to start about 20 years after the end of TTT. So my question is: considering how fast Khellus has advanced in about 100 pages of TTT - where will he be when the next series begin ?! Will the Consult still be a challenge by then ?



G. view post


Spoilerful question about the trilogy's end posted 27 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; ASpoilerful question about the trilogy's end by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Cythraul&quot;:10xqleem
...

What's more, it seemed like the reward of Esmenet was dangled in front of us. To have Esmenet leave with Achamian during that final scene would have been glorious - even audacious. It had been set up earlier - Esmenet seemed, at last, to be free of Kellhus's spell. She feared to leave him, but in a final scene you're allowed more leeway with your panache - it would have been perfectly reasonable, to my mind, for her to walk out with him.

[/quote:10xqleem]



Personally I was so tired of that sub-plot - I cheered when Achamian finally renounced her. At long last he was coming to his senses ! The man is a 47 yo sorcerer and teacher - and during the course of 3 books he mooned over that woman like a blubbering teenager. Arghh !

She certainly was an interesting character in her own right but all the languishing was just killing me. Presumably Achamian will still have a role to play in the next trilogy so these 2 might meet again but hopefully Scott will refrain from further emotional entenglements.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:v7zzo19w
...The existence of magic absolutely disproves any materialistic worldview.[/quote:v7zzo19w]


Don't be absurd. Genetic mutations enabling energy channeling is far more plausible then deities &amp; other religious nonsense.

Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:v7zzo19w
... i don't see how this can even be a question. It is fully dealt with in the book and actually provides a plausible basis for the Inchoroi/Consult quest to exterminate humanity.[/quote:v7zzo19w]

It was neither fully dealt with nor obvious. Imagine aliens arriving here - do you seriously think they would start feering the muslim god or the christian hell ? It's ludicrous. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: -->


G. view post


Favorite books/series posted 27 January 2006 in Literature DiscussionFavorite books/series by Grallon, Candidate

I suggest this very unusual series (2 books published out of 3):


The Stone Dance of the Chameleon - by Ricardo Pinto


[url:2ty2hauy]http&#58;//www&#46;ricardopinto&#46;com/index&#46;html[/url:2ty2hauy]


A fantasy series set in a bronze age era. Be warned though, if such things make you freak out: the main character is homosexual (the author too).



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Spamoram&quot;:2z2ubqgx
...

So ya, in the real world, we can't prove that gods exist. Neither does magic. However, the author of a fantasy fiction is free to create a world full of interesting deities, magic, monsters. Perhaps even having rules differing from World to World. That's what makes it so fun and why we read them...or so I hope.[/quote:2z2ubqgx]


Spare me the lecture - I'm aware of the conventions in the fantasy genre. Need I remind you the author went to great lenght to portray a realistic world ?


G. view post


Spoilerful question about the trilogy's end posted 27 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; ASpoilerful question about the trilogy's end by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:1geqagq4
...

These are the kind of books, I think, that look really different depending on what your reading perspective happens to be. If, for instance, interior narratives leave you cold, you will think the attention paid to Esmenet and Achamian's relationship tedious. ...[/quote:1geqagq4]


It appears my irritation comes, for the greater part, from my personal contempt for romantic attachments. I simply can't understand how a jaded and cynical individual like Achamian ccould fall so deep knowing what he knows about the world. In other words, I 'sinned' by identification since I myself am both jaded &amp; cynical - especially about that particular topic. I suppose it's a further proof of your skill Scott - to have 'gulled' the reader I am into emphasizing with Achamian that way. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->


G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 28 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:1211l5kt
...

as to the question of genetic mutations etc., i mean that isn't at all likely in my view. Sorcery is only produced by saying the right words. Basically they tap into this formula or structure to unleash this power. And the same rules apply to every Anagogic Sorceror and every Gnostic Sorceror. if there were a random genetic mutation that allowed the channeling of energy, the processes should not be identical between sorcerors except sorcerors of the same lineal descent who would share the mutation. And the manifestation of the "sorcery" should differ. But all the Spires produce the same stuff because they are using the same Cants. How could there be any need to comply with a rigid formula of utterances and thoughts if all they are doing is directing some innate flow? A man born of the few is utterly powerless until he is taught the words, and it is the Fact of the Words that to me says, you are dealing in a universe with Deity.[/quote:1211l5kt]


And yet there *is* a distinction between the few and everyone else - one that has physical manifestations (Achamian's memories about his own 'revelation' - where his vision changed and he felt dizzy). In other words the ability to perform sorcery is rooted in the flesh - ergo a genetic pre-disposition. The inhabitants of Earwa don't know about genetics - but we do. I see the need for cants as a focus mechanism - much like a turbin is necessary to transform the kinetic energy of a river into electricity. In other words this is but one way of acheiving the channeling I was refering to. And in turn this implies there could be other ways.

Besides the idea of 'tooth fairies' or other assorted bearded figures hovering around Earwa and picking up random individuals to gift them with the ability to do sorcery is distasteful. It would imply a negation of much that we, the readers, know about the Universe.

Finally regarding the Inchoroi and their late-blooming morality, I still find it unbeleivable that such superior beings (they keep refering to Earwa's inhabitants as 'vermin'), would suddenly realize the existance of this other dimension after coming to Earwa. Logically if there is a metaphysical 'Outside' then it shouldn't be limited to that world alone. Therefore why would they be more affected by it/subjected to it while on Earwa ?

At some point (in TWP or TTT) Aurang expresses hi hatred for his exile-world and recalls 'Home'. The way the author wrote it Aurang didn't seem to mourn something dead &amp; lost but rather the fact he's cut off. This in turn suggest that on their homeworld the Inchoroi were not in the grip of any existantial crisis - ergo they weren't in contact with other dimensions there. And as I said above, if there's an 'Outisde' it exists throughout the universe - not only in the vicinity of Earwa.

On the other end one could speculate that they had already passed the point of no return before even leaving their world; that they had 'sealed themselves out' already. But then why leave at all ? Another step in their (presumably) unending quest for ever keener obsenities ? Very well, but if that was the case, why destroy the vermin ? Why not enslave them to use them as playthings ?

And so we're back to the metaphysical explanation: the humans &amp; non-men are windows to the Outside and as such represent a threat. What kind of threat exactly ? Are these 'windows' some sort of cosmic vacuum cleaner mouths who'll suck out all Inchoroi pus ? Or, alternately, disgorge legions of shining avenging angels ? If the Inchoroi are so vile that they offend the very heavens - why weren't they smitten ? How exactly is damnation more an issue here than it was on their homeworld ? Ah yes here the seal is not watertight yet. This is what I call a logical loophole - or a vicious circle as it were...

But let's assume the Consult succeeds and slaughters all the other sentient beings of Earwa; then logically the threat from the 'Outside' disappears; and so does the Inchoroi's damnation... Therefore if one's salvation and/or damnation depends solely on the movement of doors it doesn't speak well for the 'good side' does it ?

As far as I'm aware the only way the Inchoroi can avoid damnation is by cheating death. So far they've apparently been successfull in doing so through the use of the Teckne - by preserving/regenerating their physical bodies. If that is the case then all they need to do is keep on being forgotten - thus deflecting the unwanted attention of those who would destroy them. And under that light the metaphysical subtext becomes moot.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 28 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:gc2jr6xg
...

Regarding the "late-blooming morality of the Inchoroi". What makes you assume that the Inchoroi only discovered the dimension of the Outside when they arrived in Eärwa ? We know so little of them, for all we know they're on some sort of anti-Gods crusade, travelling from world to world and sealing all of them shut. Their perpeption of worship is entirely different from our own - as it should be, since they are aliens.[/quote:gc2jr6xg]


Apparently they didn't choose to come to Earwa since they crashlanded on it ! All we know is they were going somewhere and got stranded.


Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:gc2jr6xg
... Yes, if the Consult kills off enough humans (I don't think they need to kill all of them, just enough so that the Gods no longer have any effective influence inside the world), then for all practical purposes Damnation and Salvation no longer exist inside this particular world. You say it doesn't speak well for the side of good, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. [/quote:gc2jr6xg]


For a principle to be true it has to be such in every conceivable circumstances. If we find one instance where this isn't the case then the principle ceases to be absolute and, logically, becomes relative. Therefore everything that derives from it is just so much smoke.

We already know judgement and retribution is conditional to the degree of influence the 'Outside' has on Earwa (and elsewhere - presumably) - therefore closing up the doorways between the 2 (?) planes of existance effectively cancels out the impact of said judgement. In such a case what would be a damnable offense becomes nothing more than a distraction; thus effectively making the original principle false.


Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:gc2jr6xg
... Cheating death isn't the only way for the Inchoroi to avoid damnation. How many times was this repeated in this topic alone ? If the Consult succeeds, if the world is shut, damnation is no longer an option. DAMNATION IS NO LONGER AN OPTION.[/quote:gc2jr6xg]

Thank you for illustrating my point.



Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:gc2jr6xg
...Oh, so calling others 'vermin' makes one superior, does it? And in what sense do you mean 'superior' ? Does having more powerful technology make one morally superior to another?[/quote:gc2jr6xg]


Having superior knowledge does - witness the Dunyain's easy mastery over the world-born...


Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:gc2jr6xg
...Of course, since you seem to loathe the idea that Gods objectively exist in Eärwa, you probably won't see that as a divine action, but a case could be made that since the Nonmen also represent a door into the Outside and seem to have their own forms of worship, their victory over the Inchoroi might've been divinely inspired.[/quote:gc2jr6xg]


Taken at face value I would have prefered a self enclosed world with no outside intereference. This would have been much more logically plausible than this one - where you have two contradicting realities: Earwa's home-grown metaphysics and the aliens' materialism.





G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 01 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;rycanada&quot;:3j5vrm1v
...

For mankind, however, the Outside appears to be something more; as well as being the font from which the gods spring, Achamian's candle illustration seems to indicate a kind of spiritual transcendence. I think this shows that there aren't "multiple worldviews" competing here (at least not with regard to the facts of existence). The influence of the Outside is plainly essential to the story of Earwa.[/quote:3j5vrm1v]


I see what you are saying - same reality seen from 2 different points of view. But it still doesn't answer my question about the aliens' sudden realization (by accident at that !) about the impact of the Outside upon their own survival.

Anyhow, until such time as Scott chooses to enlighten us with the Inchoroi's backstory we'll remain in the dark and I'll go on cringing at what I see as a contradiction. *shrug*


G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 02 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;rycanada&quot;:3r4o2i44
I think that the Inchoroi discovered the existence of the Outside (and the fate of their souls, which they seek to avoid) on Earwa because of sorcery. Without such obvious proof of the Outside influencing the world, they could have denied the existence of damnation - or even the soul - but once you add sorcery into the mix, it's undeniable. Their reaction? To avoid pain, work to seal off the Outside.[/quote:3r4o2i44]


If the phenomenon is universal then no matter how numerous or strong the denials - its effects would have been witnessed/experienced before by them - in one form or another. Furthermore, destroying all other sentient beings from the surface of Earwa won't make the Outside go away nor prevent the Inchoroi's newly found souls from being damned once they die.

This sealing business simply makes no sense. Either God exist and you're damned no matter what you do - or if you can actually avoid damnation then there's no God. Again, from Aurang's own musings, his people didn't seem to have had any previous experience of damnation before being stranded.

-----

You know, the one thing that grabed my attention when I first started reading the Darkness That Comes Before was how realistic fantasy could be made: mythical creatures created by genetic manipulation, Khellus' superior abilities explained by his training, the Ennemy as aliens from another world. Even sorcery could be (could have been) rationalized without calling upon metaphysical speculations.

Oh well. I'll follow the series through naturally but I'm disapointed by the way things have turned.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 02 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;rycanada&quot;:3isg3jss
...

From the way the situation has been described, the Outside's influence on Earwa seems much like liquid under pressure coming through a membrane: If there are enough holes for water to get through, then the water flows, but there are only very few, the membrane holds and nothing comes through. In the case of the Outside and Earwa, this would mean the Outside would be shut off (no flow between it and Earwa), saving the Inchoroi from damnation.[/quote:3isg3jss]


You seem to forget the Inchoroi also have souls since they can work sorcery - henceforth they're condemned to be damned - no matter how many of the vermins they kill. It takes but one hole to let the Outside's influence through and both Aurang &amp; Aurax are such holes as far as we can determine.


G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 02 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:1za4ryx2
... As the Consult/Inchori have said, kill enough Men/Non-men and it seals of Earwa from the influence of the Outside, from that point on whenever they died their souls would fade into Oblivion, the Outside would have no hold.[/quote:1za4ryx2]


And that is where the bone of contention lies. It *is* incoherent to postulate the existence of metaphysical superbeings, as evidenced by their influence through the agency of sentient underbeings, while at the same time making said influence, ergo said deties' very existence, contingent on an arbitrary number of souls.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 02 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Nauticus&quot;:1osklzan
...
You're trying your hardest to find any reason to dislike the story. Why?[/quote:1osklzan]



This place is a forum to discuss the various apsects of Scott's work. I have raised what I see as logical inconsistencies and we are debating based on that premise. Besides if I didn't like the books I wouldn't spend time arguing about them. Now perhaps you'd like to leave your fanboi attitude at the door and jump into the discussion ?



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;rycanada&quot;:14sl4pp9
...I can understand why you don't like the pacing, or what happened to Conphas, but regardless of that, if there's a convincing case for the incoherency of the given explanation of TTT's magical/ metaphysical/ spiritual content, I'm happy to hear it.[/quote:14sl4pp9]


I've been expounding at lenght about it - didn't you read my posts ?



G. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Grallon, Candidate

In the last dream Seswatha/Achamian watches with horror as Celomnas repeats word for word what the No-God says...

Personally I think Khellus still beleives he can master all circumstances - wich may be the trap that awaits him down the road... Could it be that Khellus will be made a puppet of the No-God ? Now that would be a twist !



G. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:2ee0ruxb
...With all the parallels to the First Apocalypse's, it's very conceivable that Kellhus will be that over-confident High King who will fail the Three-Seas, just like Celmomas failed the High North.[/quote:2ee0ruxb]


I just recalled that not only was the dream Celomnas repeating the No-God's words - he was preceeding them... As if he was a mouth-peice... like the srancs... See the parallel ?!

So Khellus hangs on that tree and he gets visions... Since then we've been led to beleive that Khellus had had a personal revelation but what if he himself was misled ? In that sense he wouldn't fail the Three Seas per se but rather act as some sort of trojan horse. The manipulator extraordinaire being manipulated - ha !


G. view post


  •  

The Three Seas Forum archives are hosted and maintained courtesy of Jack Brown