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carlsefni Peralogue | joined 14 February 2008 | 52 posts


Names and Pronunciation posted 19 February 2008 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by carlsefni, Peralogue

Apologies for reviving a ancient thread that last had a post months ago, but I'm just a new member cruising through the forum topics looking for something that doesn't appear to be a recently spammed advert for goods'n'services of an "adult nature" ... of which there seem to be a lot!

Anyway ....

Quote: "The Consult":1i5avavi
I don't think all the hard names are really necessary, and they make the book slightly more difficult to read...
Don't get me wrong, it takes nothing at all away from the story (which is incidentally one of the best i've read:D) but i just find it rather annoying sometimes...having to stop mid-sentence to try and work out the pronunciation. I think my main problem is not be able to understand all the symbols above the vowels....
What do you all think?[/quote:1i5avavi]

Well, with all due respect for &quot;diff'rnt strokes for diff'rnt folks&quot;, I couldn't agree less. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> In fact, one of the (several) things that made me carry the book away from the shelf and towards the cash register was that when I flipped through the pages I saw lots of crunchy looking names with diacritics over the letters. How many fantasy authors risk diacritics!? (At least, anything beyond some largely decorative Lovecraftian apostrophes scattered here and there?)

One thing that often gets me down in fantasy is feeling like the was little invested in the linguistic background and that the characters and places have received some what arbitrary names that fit no real or imaginable patterns (as they would and do in the Real World).

But here ... Ah, this guy meant business! These names promised depth. And I don't think they disappointed in that regard. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Language posted 19 February 2008 in Writing TipsLanguage by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Kidruhil Lancer&quot;:17qwf7i5
So my question is, as a writer whose language skills are seriously lacking in the creative department, should I just wing it and be consistant? Or should I simply make statements such as &quot;they spoke the such-and-such tongue&quot;, and let the reader assume?[/quote:17qwf7i5]

There already been good replies to this (somewhat ancient) topic, but I can't resist adding my tuppence ... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

I think it's definitely worth paying a certain amount of attention to the issue of language when it comes to names and such. Speaking for myself, it really bugs me when reading a fantasy series in which the author seems to have treated this issue with arbitrary abandon. I may not represent the &quot;average reader&quot;, having too strong a linguistic background not to notice the details, but I think even there's a subtle effect that operates on a reader not paying attention to this stuff.

In our Real World, there are patterns to names and repeated elements, and these patterns and elements are different in different places (where people speak different languages). I think (admittedly, based on little but gut feeling <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->) that there's readers will subconsciously notice when a writer emulates this effect, and they'll have a sense that the world is &quot;deeper&quot;, and the story richer, because the story's names behave in a way that the familiar Real World's names do as well.

As for how to achieve this -- well, you can waste a lot of time conlanging (though it might be a very enjoyable waste of time, so it depends on what you want to do <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->).

To invent your own terminology in a consistent way, you can simplymake a list of common elements used in personal and place names, and assign your own values to them. So, as utterly arbitrary examples, &quot;stronghold&quot; is targ, &quot;wolf&quot; is arku, and &quot;helmet&quot; is thano; you then can invent an ancient war-leader called Arkuthano (&quot;Wolf-helm&quot;) and call his castle Targ Arkuthano. You can go a step further and invent a genitive case (the possesive) -- say, by adding a final -n to things, and tweak it to Targ Arkuthanon (= &quot;Arkuthano's stronghold&quot;).

Then if you have several relatively closely related langauges -- either spoken contemporaneously in different regions, or some ancient forms and their modern descendants -- invent some rules that you could apply consistently to explain the differences. So, arbitrarily, let's say Languages A and B are both descended from Language X. The word for &quot;stronghold&quot; is targ in A, and we decide it was anciently tarkas in X -- so, our rules here are &quot;Lose the final syllable and turn resultant final k to g. Meanwhile we decide that in B, &quot;stronghold&quot; is darrs -- so our rules are &quot;initial t becomes d, lose the vowel of the last syllable (but preserve the s), and rk becomes rr&quot;.

OK, that's all simplistic and random, and things get funkier the more rules you have (or need). But already that's enough that if we decide the word in X for &quot;mountain&quot; is kapakas, we could create it's descendants kapag in A and kapaks in B without any other rules. (Or, potentially more interestingly, different forms if we invented yet further rules for the transformations.)

If that's too much like work, you can always just go raiding dead and/or obscure (to the likely reading audience) languages for ready-made words and relationships. Will your readers know (or care) if you steal ngiri (or something like that, meaning &quot;stronghold&quot;) and kur (&quot;mountain&quot;) from Sumerian? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> You can nick what seems to be the gentitive suffix ak as well, and create the name Ngiri Kurak (&quot;Stronghold of the mountain&quot;). Now that may well be awful Sumerian for all I know, but what the heck? It's probably good enough for our purposes <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> and there's certainly enough info about Sumerian or any of a variety of other languages to be found by Googling to do that much in just a few minutes. Even if we're &quot;wrong&quot;, as long as we keep it (pretty much) consistent, we'll be fine. view post


Now Reading... posted 02 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by carlsefni, Peralogue

The Martin Ice/Fire books are good. I think the recent volumes suffer a little from the series' success, in that I don't think they are getting much editorial attention and mighty bloat seems to be affecting them .... Still, they're destined to stand as a major fantasy work from the turn of the 20th/21st century, and not without reason.

I dug into the Erikson books back when they first started coming out, and bogged down after a few books. However, I was an overburdened grad student at the time, though, so I should probably try again now that my head is (?) clearer.

Most recent fantasy book I read was Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamorra, which I quite enjoyed.

Horrifyingly, I haven't read Thousandfold Thought yet! <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: --> I had just finished Warrior Prophet before a big transatlantic move and my reading list hasn't fully recovered yet. However, I have great confidence that I can get it and read it before the Aspect-Emperor books start coming! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Now Reading... posted 23 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:1to3jlel
The highlight would be the article on the almighty Manowar [...][/quote:1to3jlel]
Ah, Manowar! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Speaking of which (though this probably belongs better in the &quot;Now Listening to&quot; thread), have you heard the Brain Surgeons' Denial of Death album, on which Ross the Boss joins forces with ex-Blue-Öyster-Cult Al Bouchard? Most rocking ....

Anyway, to beef up the credibility of this as a &quot;Now reading&quot; post <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I'll mention that I recently chugged through John Rateliff's History of the Hobbit, which was much more interesting than I would have guessed for its insights into the formation of &quot;modern Middle-Earth&quot; as Tolkien tried to reconcile his Silmarilion-ish legendarium with the setting of The Hobbit.

And for something completely different, Walter Friedrich's Fire in the Sea: The Santorini Volcano, which is a rather &quot;crash-course technical&quot; but still comprehensive multi-disciplinary introduction to both the geology and archaeology of Santorini. Stemming from a trip around the Mediterranean last year, the missus and I have ever since been on a little kick to improve our background on classical and ancient history/archaeology for the region, particularly the eastern Med and Aegean. Good fun, as those were never topics I had much studied before. So I've been working my way through several introductory or text-book like works on Greece and Rome as well, as preliminaries to getting into more specific and detailed topics.

And, for fun and to keep my head from getting screwed on too straight, I've been re-reading some of my old RE Howard/Conan collections. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Music..not generally... posted 23 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionMusic..not generally... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:2nkz0vso
Funny thing is for me, Pink Floyd's lesser known albums have much more impact on me than say, The Wall or Dark Side of the Moon. I'd rather listen to Meddle than any of the Pink Floyd albums. [/quote:2nkz0vso]

Sign me up for Piper at the Gates of Dawn! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> While I respect the achievements of the later Floyd albums, they never really did that much for me at a gut level. And I kept thinking people who were that successful while still sounding that miserable were clearly taking the wrong drugs. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:2nkz0vso
But this topic is interesting. The question &quot;what makes one music 'greater' than another&quot; is a loaded question that involves diving into listening to music objectively as well as subjectively. For instance, While Pink Floyd might be thought of as being &quot;complex&quot; I don't find their music anywhere near as complex as say, Watchtower or Fates Warning (Awaken the Guardian specifically comes to mind) though their lyrics are more complex. At the same time, I would say that Pink Floyd's music is more complex than some bands with more complex lyrical themes.[/quote:2nkz0vso]

I think it would be hard to objectively measure &quot;greatness&quot; unless we transformed that into a measure of &quot;influence&quot; or &quot;(commercial) success&quot; (though, IMO, preferably not just the latter!). In any case, we would clearly have to separate &quot;greatness&quot; and &quot;complexity&quot; as very different things. It would be hard to describe the Ramones' music as &quot;complex&quot; <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> but it might well be judged objectively &quot;great&quot; in terms of influence or something. (And perhaps subjectively great, depending on the taste of the individual listener -- but that's another thing.)

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:2nkz0vso
With that said however, what makes lyrics inherently complex? With music, you can measure the complexity - the amount of notes, the structure of the compositions, the arrangements. With lyrics though, who is to say that Manowar's lyrics are inferior to those of Pink Floyd? [/quote:2nkz0vso]

Ah, but we must not confuse objective complexity with subjective superiority. That said, I think we can set up measures for lyrical complexity just as we could for music. In all cases, we would have to define our standard for complexity, but just we might judge &quot;complex&quot; music as that which contains more notes, more chords, more harmonic structures, etc. we could judge those lyrics to be complex that include a wider range of vocabulary, or a wider range of grammatical structures or rhetorical devices, etc. (and we might rate certain grammatical structures or rhetorical devices as more complex than others).

We could do similar things to rate the &quot;complexity&quot; of prose ....

Of course, this isn't to say that a given subjective listener would necessarily judge the objectively more complex lyrics (or prose, or music) to be &quot;superior&quot;, in their opinion, but with an agreed set of definitions for &quot;complexity&quot;, they could objectively determine the complexity of the piece.

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:2nkz0vso
I know that I can get emotional when I hear the lyrics to Battle Hymn or Metal Daze (or any song off their debut album) however there has never been a Pink Floyd song that has had an emotional effect on me. Its the same for me with Classical music as well. Igor Stravinky's Rite of Spring always touches my heart and calms me yet Mozart doesn't do anything for me.[/quote:2nkz0vso]

I often find Mozart strangely irritating -- though possibly I was traumatized by seeing Amadeus at an early age. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> On the other hand, I can listen to piles of 19th-century Romanticism all day: Sibelius (OK, early 20th-century, too!), Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin, Grieg .... some good ol' thumping Wagner. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:2nkz0vso
Music is so personal and individual that the only music that matters is the music that matters to you.[/quote:2nkz0vso]

As I'm sure I once read as a quote from someone knowledgeable about such things (though I forget who!), there is no good or bad music -- only music you like more or less. view post


Now listening to... posted 23 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:1qppzzri
Quote: &quot;gierra&quot;:1qppzzri
new tyr [/quote:1qppzzri]
Is that Land? I purchased that a few days ago as well. Will throw it in the cd player tomorrow.[/quote:1qppzzri]

I've quite enjoyed previous Týr albums, and must pick up Land sometime. Heavens only know where I'll find it down here. Maybe on my next trip to the States ....

(My local record shops tend to be very mainstream in their selection, and international mail-ordered CDs ... may not ever show up! Books seem to arrive more safely, however. So of late I've been simply revisiting my &quot;back catalogue&quot; or downloading freely available concerts or freebie tracks from random musicians on MySpace or something!)

As my listening moods swing rapidly, I had to mine the stats out of iTunes to see what I've been spinning in the last week! Looks like I've been having a classic rock kind of seven-night: a lot of old Jethro Tull and Iron Maiden, some Blue Öyster Cult, Hawkwind, the whole Cei ce Ne-au Dat Nume album by Phoenix (awesome and criminally obscure Romanian folk/prog/proto-metal kinda band), Nightwish, Kyuss, Type O Negative (OK, those latter ones fall less into the &quot;classic rock category&quot;, but anyway ....), some of my own home-recordings <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> ... mmm, even a Cure track in there! view post


Now listening to... posted 24 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:n0bmk9ev
I am seeing them [Judas Priest] in August with Heaven and Hell, Motorhead and Testament.[/quote:n0bmk9ev]

Ah, I had to miss H&amp;H's London date last year due to moving to South America! <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: --> People told me they were fab, though. view post


Now listening to... posted 24 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;gierra&quot;:ipjqfb2m
yes, i'm dressed like a viking. shut up.[/quote:ipjqfb2m]

Ah, well, I've spent my share of time dressed like a viking ... as one does! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> Admittedly, not (knowingly) in the company of Viking metal bands. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

To keep in compliance with the title of the thread, I'm now listening to Iselija by Gåte (Norwegian folk-rock) and Elverhøy by Helene Bøksle (Norwegian folk-pop). All this talk of Vikings has affected me! But that'll be enough of Norway, though -- and the gentler side of things. I'll have to move sideways in to Sweden or Finland next, and ramp up the volume. <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> view post


Music..not generally... posted 24 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionMusic..not generally... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Well, I use the term &quot;greatness&quot; loosely. I think that a more apt attempt at ranking would be credibility as artists but that too poses infinite amounts of &quot;cracked-cup-filling.&quot; I don't think that it really is necessary to attempt and give music or art a particular score, I was more or less just running with the topic. [/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, me too -- it's what topics are for. Really, I would see the exercise of trying to judge music objectively as requiring a necessary reduction to fairly rigidly define sets of criteria, making the whole thing a fairly academic exercise of limited applicability to ... anything most anyone would be interested in. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Influence is a possible way to base whether a band is &quot;great&quot; or not I suppose but it poses many problems. I think that people throw the word &quot;influence&quot; around these days as a marketing ploy so as to link a band's generic and entirely watered down sound with a more credible scene or group of artists to gain the favor of real music fans.[/quote:s32zqp8w]

True. I'm really just using &quot;influence&quot; as a kind of short-hand for &quot;the condition of having created music that refuses to go away even after the social conditions that might have initially made it popular even if it had had no other particular value have dissipated&quot; .... or something like that!

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
A band like Nirvana - who I would love to argue and bash all day for being the worst thing to happen to music until American Idol decided to claim the throne to that position - who were incredibly influential would also, in my ears, be listed as less than great. They were influential but that was all they were. They too were part of a scene that spewed forth more enduring and talented bands. The only good musician was Dave Grohl and I would go so far as to say that the Foo Fighters are a &quot;greater&quot; band than Nirvana. I won't even touch upon commercial success. To claim that N'Sync is a greater... musical outfit than say, Darkthrone is ridiculous. [/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, I'm not going to leap up to defend Nirvana's subjective greatness -- I'll own Cobain an able writer of pop songs (no doubt to his chagrin, and that of many of his fans) but they never did much for me. (Cobain, haplessly miserable beggar that he was, was clearly taking the wrong drugs! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->) Nor will I lift so much as the cuticle of a particularly small finger to defend anything about N'Sync! But it does go to show that we need a definition of &quot;greatness&quot; in order to judge whether it exists in a particular case.

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Lyrical &quot;superiority&quot; would be easier to judge than musical &quot;superiority / greatness.&quot;
I do however frown upon any attempt to create a set of rules or definitions for judging complexity and the like. Setting a manual of guidelines creates a prison for the creative potential of the artist. It would drive them to create music that fits the definitions given and write lyrics that would fall into the missing places that the rules cut out of the sod.[/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, we wouldn't be setting a manual of guidelines for the artist, only for the judge -- if we want objective measures. But as I noted, that reduces our judgments to the purely academic; only as good as the criteria we define. And this is not particularly useful or interesting. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> We could define &quot;complexity&quot; as &quot;the number of different notes per unit of time&quot;, and define &quot;greatness as complexity&quot;, but then we would know little more than our notionally great music had an awful lot of notes in it. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> We may as well stick with purely subjective mesaures like, &quot;N'Sync suck!&quot;, which are at leat more satisfying if not more informative.

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
I'm not a HUGE fan of classical but I don't care for the big bombastic symphonies so much. I do like Tchaikovsky's pieces however so, I guess its a matter of individual composers in the case of classical for me. I would like to get more involved in the classical genre and delve deeper into that rabbit hole but I just get caught up in the other genres. [/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, I was raised on classical music (with some folk and jazz thrown in ) as a child, only to be caught up in the heady glories of rock-and/or-roll later on. I retain many early likings of classical music, but there are practical difficulties in getting into the genre. IMO, it's like every record is by a cover band -- and you might like someone's &quot;cover&quot; of a piece more or less. Any given symphony, say, probably has been recorded at least half-a-dozen times (if not many, many more) by different combinations of conductors and orchestras over the past 50 years. You might like some interpretations but not others, and finding the ones you like can be something of a chore. (I'm still looking for a version of Rimsky-Korsakov's Russian Easter Overture that is more like the one I dug as a kid, about which I remember no helpful identifying details, not having been concerned with (or even aware of) such things then. Well ... not looking very hard, day to day, but you know what I mean ....) I increasingly think one needs to get some of those catalogs of classical reviews and then learn which reviewers tastes you trust. (Heh, well, not that different from reading reviews in Kerrang! or any of a number of metal web sites, then! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> )

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Quote: &quot;carlsefni&quot;:s32zqp8w
Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Music is so personal and individual that the only music that matters is the music that matters to you.[/quote:s32zqp8w]
As I'm sure I once read as a quote from someone knowledgeable about such things (though I forget who!), there is no good or bad music -- only music you like more or less.[/quote:s32zqp8w]
Yeah, thats a great quote. I've heard it as well. It too raises some interesting questions. Is there any such thing as truly BAD music?[/quote:s32zqp8w]

I'd like to say &quot;yes&quot;, but my philosophy prevents me from doing so. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
(Still .... N'Sync suck!) view post


Rome posted 24 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionRome by carlsefni, Peralogue

The missus and I watched all of the first season and loved it. The DVDs are definitely on the list ....
I saw some episodes of early parts of the second season but then missed the rest. It already seemed a little less ... sure on its feet than the first season, doubtless for the reasons mentioned. But we'll probably end up getting those DVDs too.

I have classicist friends who grumble about historical inaccuracies, but that doesn't bother me too much here. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> It's worth it all for the excellent atmosphere. view post


Your First Time posted 24 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionYour First Time by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Harrol&quot;:11odsv2b
Wel I am a little embarassed to say it was the Hobbit when I was 13 years old.[/quote:11odsv2b]
No worries -- I think I can join the choir of people citing The Hobbit and LOTR as their early &quot;it blew my mind&quot; reading experiences. Actually, I really resisted reading The Hobbit. having caught a glimpse of the animated version on TV when I was 4 or 5 and it looked scary! <!-- s:o --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_surprised.gif" alt=":o" title="Surprised" /><!-- s:o --> My mother actually had to sit me down and start reading it aloud to me when I was about 8 or so -- and within a few chapters I was too hooked for wait for her to finish. I ripped through the rest myself and launched straight on to LOTR.

I also remember, probably slightly later by around 12 or 13, reading Alan Garner's Weirdstone of Brisingamen/Moon of Gomrath duo and Lloyd Alexander's &quot;Chronicles of Prydein&quot;. Memory of those has stuck with me, too, for whatever reason. (Though now that I think about it, I also remember putting off reading the Alexander books because one had a picture of the Horned King on the cover and he, too, looked scary! <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: -->)

Also being a historical fiction fan, I remember reading around the same time as those Rosemary Sutcliffe's The Shield Ring and Henry Treece's &quot;Viking Saga&quot; trilogy -- and then, of course, every other book I could find by those authors. In that vein, I also then soon found Frans G. Bengtsson's The Long Ships, which is still one of my favourite books. I think my Swedish is too rusty these days to read the original language version again, but the English translation is quite good (IMO), and it's a fab book in all events. view post


Music..not generally... posted 25 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionMusic..not generally... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:3brz869i
I'm not a HUGE fan of classical but I don't care for the big bombastic symphonies so much. I do like Tchaikovsky's pieces however so, I guess its a matter of individual composers in the case of classical for me. [/quote:3brz869i]
(Just to add to this:) Surely this is the case for most fans in most genres. I mean, I like &quot;metal&quot;, but just because someone is a musician working with that genre doesn't mean I'm going to like their output. Likewise, there are classical composers I like, and others I don't. (Hey, there's bluegrass I like and bluegrass I don't.) And, of course, just because I generally like a musician's output, doesn't mean that I'm going to like all of it. I can think of plenty of bands that I love to death but are nevertheless capable of producing things that make me think, &quot;Well, that was rubbish!&quot;. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->

Of course, that goes for books and authors, too. People will tell me things like &quot;Hey, you like that science fiction stuff, you must like this thing.&quot; Which IMO is not terribly sensible .... <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> And of course, sometimes authors that I generally like deliver me a turkey (maybe a very successful turkey that clearly lots of other people think flies like an eagle, but not me!). Still ... I've liked all of &quot;Prince of Nothing&quot; so far! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> view post


Now listening to... posted 25 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:130ej9j6
Carl, check out Hardingrock. Immediately.[/quote:130ej9j6]
I found their MySpace page with a few tunes on it: Cool. I'm not wholly convinced that the death/black metal vox on &quot;Faens marsj&quot; add a lot, but that may be because I've never been a big fan of ye olde cookie monster vocals. (They work for me sometimes, like on Amorphis, but usually not so much.) I might have been tempted to use more of Heidi's vox, but then again I am a fan of female vocals over heavy music, so again that might just be me. I dig the Hardanger fiddle with metaloid rhythms though. Right on! Googling around, I found an interview with Ihsahn saying how fiddler Knut Buen was interested in taking little segments of traditional tunes and using them as a basis from which to build a rock riff; that's an idea I've played with a little bit now and again, and intend to do more with. The other track there, &quot;Daudingen&quot;, is considerably more mellow in tone, but groovily atmospheric. I can sometimes catch bits of the Nynorsk lyrics on this one. (I used to speak passable if broken Swedish, which made at least some Norwegian dialects and variants semi-comprehensible when I heard them ... though rather less so these days!)

Yeah, good stuff! Thanks for the tip. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I hope to be able to check out more of their music. view post


Now listening to... posted 28 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:3rl84gzg
You want me to upload the cd for you? I actually have an indepth interview with him about the project. I'll try and scan it into the computer. It appeared in one of the issues of Zero Tolerance Magazine.[/quote:3rl84gzg]
Aw, well, I try to resist to temptation to acquire dodgy copies of stuff (though the temptation is becoming increasingly great now that my location makes mail-ordering legit CDs extremely difficult!). I appreciate the difficulties non-mainstream and small-scale musicians face in trying to make a living from their music (having been a small-scale, non-mainstream musician at times). Still ... if the Ihsahn or the others said it was OK to pass electronic copies along to me, I wouldn't turn them away. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

But I would like to read your interview! I dig traditional music and the ways in which tradition continues to adapt and involve. That's a little hobby-horse of mine ..... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Now listening to... posted 28 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:3io6rb3w
Quote: &quot;gierra&quot;:3io6rb3w

*edit.. what the crap? p.orno is a bad word?[/quote:3io6rb3w]
Its probably a method to filter out spammers trying to link to adult websites.[/quote:3io6rb3w]
No worries: We just need a list of rude words from the languages of Eärwa, and then we can blaspheme away (in a most topical fashion for the forum!) without tripping the English-language spam filters. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Music..not generally... posted 30 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionMusic..not generally... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;ThePrinceofNothing&quot;:20gnclnq
Pink Floyd is my favorite band of all time. Meddle is actually my favorite album by them.
That said, regarding the original discussion, the only musicians I can see coming close to the Waters/Gilmour combination of Pink Floyd would be:
Gabriel/Hackett (Genesis)
Anderson/Barre (Jethro Tull)[/quote:20gnclnq]
Well, I won't argue in the latter case, as Tull is perhaps my most &quot;consistently favourite&quot; band. Martin Barre rules! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Strangely, though I have many a prog-head friend who raves about ye olde Genesis, I always warmed to the rather eclectic post-Genesis career of Peter Gabriel than the Genesis stuff. view post


Now listening to... posted 07 July 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:33hyyfe1
GRAND f'ing MAGUS - IRON WILL
best album of the year for me. By Far. More than Far.[/quote:33hyyfe1]
Ah, that's the band of the same guy who now sings for the Spiritual Beggars, no? What I've heard of Grand Magus has been excellent, but I've not heard enough and will have to try to check 'em out.

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:33hyyfe1
MOTORHEAD - NO SLEEP TILL HAMMERSMITH[/quote:33hyyfe1]
Can't go wrong. Lemmy made me want to play bass. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Now listening to... posted 08 July 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;carlsefni&quot;:vxalrbi0
We just need a list of rude words from the languages of Eärwa, and then we can blaspheme away (in a most topical fashion for the forum!) without tripping the English-language spam filters. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->[/quote:vxalrbi0]
I keep thinking about this, actually .... Maybe I have the nub of a topic about languages of Eärwa for one of the on-topic sections of the forum. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

To keep this on-topic for the off-topic thread: now playing ... err, I'm reviewing one of my home recordings actually! Drums need work and the vox need re-recording .... But I need to change up from the mad Nordic folk-metal binge that this forum-thread plunged me into. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> I need to go listen to totally different, like Egyptian pop music or something. (My tendancy toward everything louder than everything else will return soon enough of its own accord ....) view post


Now listening to... posted 22 July 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Borodin's &quot;In the Steppes of Central Asia&quot;, from one of the cheap-but-cheerful Naxos collections, I think.
I'm a sucker for the 19th-century Romanticists. <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> view post


Rome posted 23 July 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionRome by carlsefni, Peralogue

Well, the major events, sure. The show certainly changes certain smaller facts here and there to make better television: for example, the historical Octavian was not in Rome when Caesar was killed, etc. They also &quot;streamline&quot; the memberships of many historical families or factions to keep things simple (one presumes). That aside, my classicist friends tended to grumble about small things at levels of archaeological or cultural detail about which I can't really say anything sensible <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> though having a ridiculous academic background in medieval Scandinavia, I know get grumbly the same way over portrayals of &quot;Vikings&quot; in video or print! I try to leave that stuff aside and focus on the overall experience -- which in the case of Rome I think is superb. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

We just got a copy of season 2 on DVD, so I look forward to working through it ASAP! view post


Now listening to... posted 31 July 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;ThePrinceofNothing&quot;:73cozd00
Amorphis- To Father's Cabin[/quote:73cozd00]
Ah, by the gods above and below, I do love Amorphis! A band that really crams all sorts of different stuff I love into one great, big sonorous experience.
Tales from the Thousand Lakes is classic, though I think my favourite album remains Elegy. Shamefully, I started to lose interest in the Am Universum/Far from the Sun period, but Eclipse made me prick up my ears again. Lamentably, I only have some very dodgy MP3s of Silent Waters, but I'm trying to find someone locally who sells the proper CD -- fabulous stuff, really ..... view post


Now listening to... posted 08 August 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow listening to... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;gierra&quot;:30p35qzz
they were pretty good live, but with the new singer.. i was kinda meh after elegy. haven't listened to amorphis in years, i think.[/quote:30p35qzz]
Elegy rules. I was OK with Tuonela, but then had very much the same reaction you describe through the next few albums and kinda lost interest. I figured they were over.

But then I read reviews of Eclipse that said &quot;Woah! They've got it together again.&quot; I didn't really believe it until I heard the album but, yeah, they were getting it together again. And the newest, Silent Waters, is surely (IMO) the best since Elegy.

When you've got albums like Tales and Elegy in your past, you're always gonna be in trouble. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> But Eclipse and Silent Waters are pretty darned good (IMO). They've kept some of the the progressive/psych vibe that the band had been moving into (and which they eventually got a bit carried away with whilst trying to mix it with a sort of alternative rock thing), but those two albums likewise have another new and younger singer who's well into ye olde death metal vibe, and with him aboard the band seems to have re-thought their approach and ramped things back up a bit. They've also returned to mining the mythology/legendarium for album concepts again. I think they've actually stepped back from the brink that I was sure they had jumped over.

OK, you might still find they're too lightweight for your tastes <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> but I might suggest at least borrowing someone's Silent Waters and seeing how it goes. Naught to lose. view post


Names and Pronunciation posted 14 August 2008 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
It would be fantastic if Scott could produce some audio to properly pronounce the names and words used in his books.[/quote:1dibx5on]
Agreed 100%!

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
If I had something of mine published and released, and fans came up to me pronouncing all the names and words wrong, I would get seriously annoyed! I would find myself wanting to correct them each and every time. A time-waster! Hide, Scott, hide! If I ever meet you I will maul you down Kellhus closed-fist style for proper pronunciations. <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: -->[/quote:1dibx5on]
<!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> It's funny this topic should spring back to life today, actually -- I was just (procrastinating from real work or writing) by musing over issues of orthography and pronunciation for names in my little fiction project (being an extremely slow, amateur, and unpublished but grimly determined would-be author). <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

I think, once upon a time, I would have been horrified were I an author and people pronounced my characters' names wrongly. Nowadays ... I think I'd just be happy they'd bought my book and were pronouncing the names at all! Still ... I do ponder how to write names in ways that will be more or less transparent to English-speakers unaccustomed to seeing diacritics or &quot;funny&quot; letters (not to mention publishers reluctant to print them!) and without doing too much violence to the &quot;real&quot; pronunciation. There are always a few vowels and consonants that I just can't decide what to do with!

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)[/quote:1dibx5on]
Hmmm, why not a diphthong as with your interpretation for ai (&quot;ai = long i sound&quot;), like /au/ (English &quot;ow&quot; as in &quot;cow&quot;)? I'd be more naturally inclined to go with a diphthong unless there were something like a diaeresis (¨) over one of the vowels (e.g. aü), marking it as being in hiatus (as done in, say, Occitan).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow)[/quote:1dibx5on]
I do agonize over the use of &quot;y&quot;. I really want something to represent the vowel /y/ as the u in French chute or the ü in German Blüte, but since this vowel doesn't even exist in English, I know that wouldn't be at all transparent to English-speaking readers. Up to this point, I've only dared deploy &quot;y&quot; as a consonant /j/ as in English &quot;yes&quot;, though I am sure you are right that Scott is using it as both a consonant and vowel -- and, yeah, at a guess maybe kind of /i/ vowel, either long or short.

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?)[/quote:1dibx5on]
Actually, though my background is in Germanic languages where &quot;j&quot; is /j/ and I live in a Spanish-speaking country where &quot;j&quot; is more like /h/ , I'm actually more inclined to see Scott's &quot;j&quot; as something more like the typical English &quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot; (as a /dʒ/). After all, why use &quot;j&quot; for the /j/ sound of English &quot;yes&quot; when its seems he is already using &quot;y&quot; itself for that sound? Scott's use of final &quot;j&quot; as in &quot;Cironj&quot; actually makes me think of Turkish final -c, pronounced as a /dʒ/, just like English &quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;. Though your &quot;rev'd shhhh&quot; sound is interesting; it makes me think of the Castilian Spanish /x/ for &quot;j&quot;, or maybe even the earlier Spanish /ʃ/ (English &quot;sh&quot;) pronunciation of &quot;x&quot; -- or even the elusive Swedish &quot;sje&quot; sound (/ɧ/). Egotistically, I still personally think like that j = /dʒ/ (&quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;) is more likely, but I kind of like the idea for you &quot;j&quot; interpretation. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I kind of like the idea of &quot;j&quot; as /i:/ (long i) as well, though I'm not sure its the case here.

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
Dûnyain = Dune-yen
Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah[/quote:1dibx5on]
Here, for example, I be tempted to interpret Scott's &quot;y&quot; as /j/ (&quot;y&quot; in &quot;yes&quot;) in both of these names: /du:njain/ and /gilcu:ɲa/ (interpreting the &quot;ny&quot; combination in the latter as something like the Spanish &quot;ñ&quot;).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
Mog-Pharau = Mog Fah-ra-oo
Paro Inrau = Pa-row In-ra-oo ('pa' as in ma and pa, the short a sound. The same with 'ra')[/quote:1dibx5on]
I'm seeing more that diphthong thing: /farau/ and /inrau/. Though even a disyllabic a-u sound can easily be slurred into a diphthong in rapid speech; I hear that in Spanish a lot.

Oh, but what about that &quot;ph&quot;? Yeah, it's probably just an orthographic variant for &quot;f&quot; to look more cool <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> but wouldn't it be fun if it were a aspirated /p/ like Ancient Greek letter phi? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy[/quote:1dibx5on]
Now here I would have gone with &quot;ch&quot; as typical English &quot;ch&quot; as in &quot;church&quot;. For you predicted pronunciation, I would have expected a spelling simply with &quot;k&quot;.
In my own project's spelling conventions, I've been using plain &quot;c&quot; to stand for typical English &quot;ch&quot; as in &quot;church&quot; (as in Italian). I realize &quot;ch&quot; would be more obvious to English-speakers, but ... I?ve just shied away from &quot;ch&quot; for some reason! Whenever I've tried it, I've been unhappy with the &quot;look&quot;. Scott's &quot;c&quot; seems likely to just be an orthographic variation of &quot;k&quot;, though. (Unless he's got something enormously funky going on in in names like &quot;Cnaiür&quot;!) <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick
Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee[/quote:1dibx5on]
These spellings make me think Scott is using the diaeresis (¨) to mark hiatus, the separation of two vowels: /ku:.ni.ur/ and perhaps /ku:.ni.u.rik/. Though of course a disyllabic /i.u/ or similar construction with initial /i/ before another vowel in hiatus will easily change into /i.ju/, so we could (in a future version of the languge!) even end up with something like /ku:.ɲur/

ɲNow here are ones I'm really at a loss:
Cironj = See-ron-nee?
Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
Now here are ones I'm really at a loss:
Cironj = See-ron-nee?
Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee[/quote:1dibx5on]
Yeah, here is where I think j = /dʒ/ (&quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;) solve those problems neatly (if mundanely!).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star)[/quote:1dibx5on]
Why &quot;zar&quot; as &quot;star&quot; rather than &quot;tsar&quot;?

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1dibx5on
I think that Eä would sound as ay, the long a sound, or more like Eh! like Canadians say eh? Eh? Eh!-rrr-wah??? Eh!-nnn-nah???
Or, long e, then the eh! sound. Like Ee-eh! E. Eh! Sports. Ee-ehrr-wah? Ee-ehn-nah? [...]
Have any of you heard Scott pronounce Eärwa?[/quote:1dibx5on]
I haven't, though my guess is still that the diaeresis (¨) marks hiatus, and we have three syllables: /e.ar.wa/ (or sort of &quot;eh-ar-wah&quot;). My guess is that stress there would fall on the second /ar/ syllable, but that's just a guess.

I would really be delighted if there were more juicy details on the words, names and languages of Eärwa (however it, or they, are pronounced!). <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> Then again, I am one of those madmen who reads the appendices of Lord of the Rings for fun. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> If the publishers balk at putting in appendices, I'd love to see such info go on the Web site. And if Scott hasn't got a pile of notes on this stuff, if he has just &quot;made it up&quot;, then he's done an excellent job at faking a very realistic looking multilingual milieu! <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: --> view post


Names and Pronunciation posted 14 August 2008 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
It would be fantastic if Scott could produce some audio to properly pronounce the names and words used in his books.[/quote:lajt3g8e]
Agreed 100%!

I remember there are some pronunciation guides in the appendicies, but I'm trapped between an intercontinental move last year and a new-house move in a couple of months from now, and all my books are in boxes in the basement! Ah well.
Still, if publishers balk at putting too much appendices, I'd love to see such info go on the Web site. And if Scott hasn't got a pile of notes on this stuff, if he has just &quot;made it up&quot;, then he's done an excellent job at faking a very realistic looking multilingual milieu! <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
If I had something of mine published and released, and fans came up to me pronouncing all the names and words wrong, I would get seriously annoyed! I would find myself wanting to correct them each and every time. A time-waster! Hide, Scott, hide! If I ever meet you I will maul you down Kellhus closed-fist style for proper pronunciations. <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: -->[/quote:lajt3g8e]
<!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> It's funny this topic should spring back to life today, actually -- I was just (procrastinating from real work or writing) by musing over issues of orthography and pronunciation for names in my little fiction project (being an extremely slow, amateur, and unpublished but grimly determined would-be author). <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

I think, once upon a time, I would have been horrified were I an author and people pronounced my characters' names wrongly. Nowadays ... I think I'd just be happy they'd bought my book and were pronouncing the names at all! Still ... I do ponder how to write names in ways that will be more or less transparent to English-speakers unaccustomed to seeing diacritics or &quot;funny&quot; letters (not to mention publishers reluctant to print them!) and without doing too much violence to the &quot;real&quot; pronunciation. There are always a few vowels and consonants that I just can't decide what to do with!

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)[/quote:lajt3g8e]
Hmmm, why not a diphthong as with your interpretation for ai (&quot;ai = long i sound&quot;), like /au/ (English &quot;ow&quot; as in &quot;cow&quot;)? I'd be more naturally inclined to go with a diphthong unless there were something like a diaeresis (¨) over one of the vowels (e.g. aü), marking it as being in hiatus (as done in, say, Occitan).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow)[/quote:lajt3g8e]
I do agonize over the use of &quot;y&quot;. I really want something to represent the vowel /y/ as the u in French chute or the ü in German Blüte, but since this vowel doesn't even exist in English, I know that wouldn't be at all transparent to English-speaking readers. Up to this point, I've only dared deploy &quot;y&quot; as a consonant /j/ as in English &quot;yes&quot;, though I am sure you are right that Scott is using it as both a consonant and vowel -- and, yeah, at a guess maybe kind of /i/ vowel, either long or short.

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?)[/quote:lajt3g8e]
Actually, though my background is in Germanic languages where &quot;j&quot; is /j/ and I live in a Spanish-speaking country where &quot;j&quot; is more like /h/ , I'm actually more inclined to see Scott's &quot;j&quot; as something more like the typical English &quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot; (as a /dʒ/). After all, why use &quot;j&quot; for the /j/ sound of English &quot;yes&quot; when its seems he is already using &quot;y&quot; itself for that sound? Scott's use of final &quot;j&quot; as in &quot;Cironj&quot; actually makes me think of Turkish final -c, pronounced as a /dʒ/, just like English &quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;. Though your &quot;rev'd shhhh&quot; sound is interesting; it makes me think of the Castilian Spanish /x/ for &quot;j&quot;, or maybe even the earlier Spanish /ʃ/ (English &quot;sh&quot;) pronunciation of &quot;x&quot; -- or even the elusive Swedish &quot;sje&quot; sound (/ɧ/). Egotistically, I still personally think like that j = /dʒ/ (&quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;) is more likely, but I kind of like the idea for you &quot;j&quot; interpretation. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I kind of like the idea of &quot;j&quot; as /i:/ (long i) as well, though I'm not sure its the case here.

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
Dûnyain = Dune-yen
Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah[/quote:lajt3g8e]
Here, for example, I be tempted to interpret Scott's &quot;y&quot; as /j/ (&quot;y&quot; in &quot;yes&quot;) in both of these names: /du:njain/ and /gilcu:ɲa/ (interpreting the &quot;ny&quot; combination in the latter as something like the Spanish &quot;ñ&quot;).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
Mog-Pharau = Mog Fah-ra-oo
Paro Inrau = Pa-row In-ra-oo ('pa' as in ma and pa, the short a sound. The same with 'ra')[/quote:lajt3g8e]
I'm seeing more that diphthong thing: /farau/ and /inrau/. Though even a disyllabic a-u sound can easily be slurred into a diphthong in rapid speech; I hear that in Spanish a lot.

Oh, but what about that &quot;ph&quot;? Yeah, it's probably just an orthographic variant for &quot;f&quot; to look more cool <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> but wouldn't it be fun if it were a aspirated /p/ like Ancient Greek letter phi? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy[/quote:lajt3g8e]
Now here I would have gone with &quot;ch&quot; as typical English &quot;ch&quot; as in &quot;church&quot;. For you predicted pronunciation, I would have expected a spelling simply with &quot;k&quot;.
In my own project's spelling conventions, I've been using plain &quot;c&quot; to stand for typical English &quot;ch&quot; as in &quot;church&quot; (as in Italian). I realize &quot;ch&quot; would be more obvious to English-speakers, but ... I?ve just shied away from &quot;ch&quot; for some reason! Whenever I've tried it, I've been unhappy with the &quot;look&quot;. Scott's &quot;c&quot; seems likely to just be an orthographic variation of &quot;k&quot;, though -- and sometimes silent, no? (as for &quot;Cnaiür&quot;, as mentioned earlier in this thread).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick
Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee[/quote:lajt3g8e]
These spellings make me think Scott is using the diaeresis (¨) to mark hiatus, the separation of two vowels: /ku:.ni.ur/ and perhaps /ku:.ni.u.rik/. Though of course a disyllabic /i.u/ or similar construction with initial /i/ before another vowel in hiatus will easily change into /i.ju/, so we could (in a future version of the languge!) even end up with something like /ku:.ɲur/

ɲNow here are ones I'm really at a loss:
Cironj = See-ron-nee?
Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
Now here are ones I'm really at a loss:
Cironj = See-ron-nee?
Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee[/quote:lajt3g8e]
Yeah, here is where I think j = /dʒ/ (&quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;) solve those problems neatly (if mundanely!).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star)[/quote:lajt3g8e]
Why &quot;zar&quot; as &quot;star&quot; rather than &quot;tsar&quot;?

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:lajt3g8e
I think that Eä would sound as ay, the long a sound, or more like Eh! like Canadians say eh? Eh? Eh!-rrr-wah??? Eh!-nnn-nah???
Or, long e, then the eh! sound. Like Ee-eh! E. Eh! Sports. Ee-ehrr-wah? Ee-ehn-nah? [...]
Have any of you heard Scott pronounce Eärwa?[/quote:lajt3g8e]
I haven't, though my guess is still that the diaeresis (¨) marks hiatus, and we have three syllables: /e.ar.wa/ (or sort of &quot;eh-ar-wah&quot;). My guess is that stress there would fall on the second /ar/ syllable, but that's just a guess.

I would really be delighted if there were more juicy details on the words, names and languages of Eärwa (however it, or they, are pronounced!). <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> Then again, I am one of those madmen who reads the appendices of Lord of the Rings for fun. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


Names and Pronunciation posted 15 August 2008 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:2ziwumdz
I've been writing a book for 18 years and I've yet to complete chapter 1. How's that for a handicapped snail's pace. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->[/quote:2ziwumdz]
Sounds about right! I think I officially decided I would write a proper novel in 1995. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> I've made it through more than a chapter, but it's been a learning process, and I've often found myself what I thought was a long way in, but then deciding things were not right, and starting over again. I think the first few paragraphs of my most recent drafts are still largely the same as when I began -- but everything else has moved and shifted and usually changed utterly! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:2ziwumdz
I'm also determined to complete it, along with all the others I've scribbled up.
But, really, when you come across a book like TDTCB, it becomes both discouraging and inspiring to write. It pissed me off so much I grow more determined! <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: --> [/quote:2ziwumdz]
We shall overcome! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

I've taken something of a break over the last year or so -- having been too occupied with other things -- but am thinking about how to shape things again. I've done lots of writing over the years, but never imposed much structure, so now I'm trying to think carefully about outlines and plans ... a skeleton over which to paint flesh, layer by layer .... Eh, it'll probably take me another 18 years! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:2ziwumdz
Stick them [diacritics and &quot;funny&quot; letters] in there.[/quote:2ziwumdz]
Yes, after reading TDTCB, I decided I could at least get away with a few diaeresis and circumflex marks. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I do know many readers find that sort of thing distracting, but I like to think it adds a little &quot;seasoning&quot;.

I do think I'll use the circumflex to sporadically mark long vowels where I think an English speaker might otherwise pronounce them short (e.g. to encourage something written dûk to be pronounced more like French duc than English &quot;duck&quot;), and likewise I think I'll use the diaeresis sporadically to mark out vowels as separate syllables where I think English speakers might otherwise pronounce them as a diphthong in combo with an adjacent vowel (as in French Noël, &quot;no-ehl&quot;) or as silent (e.g. to distinguish something like winë, &quot;wihn-eh&quot; from English &quot;wine&quot;). Not flawless techniques, of course, but they will add occasionaly &quot;visual interest&quot;, if nothing else, and will perhaps remind people that they are not looking at English-language environments.

Still, I intend to try to stick reasonably closely to usages that will work for English-speakers. I think I must use &quot;y&quot; for /j/ (the &quot;y&quot; of English &quot;yes&quot;), and &quot;j&quot; for /dʒ/ (&quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;). I have flirted with using &quot;dg&quot; or &quot;dj&quot; for /dʒ/ (&quot;dg&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;!), but I wonder whether spelling a word pronounced like English &quot;judge&quot; as either dgudg or djudj would be too weird? Though, actually djudj as a kind of pleasantly exotic look to it .... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Still, I don't think I need the letter &quot;j&quot; for anything else, so I don't really dj instead of just plain j for the &quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;.

Being set on &quot;y&quot; for /j/ (the &quot;y&quot; of English &quot;yes&quot;), that makes it straightforward to use &quot;ny&quot; and &quot;ly&quot; for what Portuguese would write nh and lh or Spanish would write ñ and ll. My pain remains in whether to admit &quot;y&quot; to represent that elusive /y/ vowel as in French chute or German Blüte? So far, my decision has been &quot;no&quot;, since I'm pretty sure English speakers would simply pronounce a &quot;y&quot; vowel as a /ai/ diphthong (as in English &quot;why&quot;) or possibly a long i vowel (as in English place-names like &quot;Shelby&quot;), and I can't use a German-style &quot;ü&quot; either, since I'm pretty sure I want the diaeresis to distinguish syllabication in vowels. And since that /y/ vowel is not terribly Anglophone, I think I'll to abandon marking it distinctly, and simply write it as an &quot;i&quot; or a &quot;u&quot; ... probably just &quot;i&quot;, since I'm actually not very happy with the look of the letter &quot;u&quot; in names where I would like a /y/ vowel.

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:2ziwumdz
My Brasilian and Portuguese backgrounds rev that j up in every word I know. Ex. January = Janeiro. Janeiro is pronounced jjj-ah-nay-rrr-oo (the r is also revved up, very much like a loud cat's purr. ).[/quote:2ziwumdz]
Ah, I think I'm with you now -- basically a /ʒ/, like the like the French &quot;j&quot; in joue or a bit like the sound of &quot;si&quot; in English &quot;vision&quot;. Yeah, even though I'm thinking like an English &quot;j&quot; in &quot;judge&quot;, I think I'd be happy with your Portuguese &quot;j&quot;, too. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Only a few steps away, in a sense!

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:2ziwumdz
That's interesting. You just opened up a door for me. Tie that in with the long i sound for &quot;ai&quot; and Dûnyain would sound Doon-njine, with a hard inflection on the 'nj' sound
Gilcûnya was tricky. I first pronounced it with a revved J (most Portuguese words that begin with 'gi' are pronounced with a revved j). Jjj-ill-coon-yah.
I do believe you're onto something more precise with the 'ny' pairing being pronounced as you stated. It creates a great harsh inflection I can imagine being used in Bakker's world. Gill-coo-njah.
Cironj = See-ron-nge.[/quote:2ziwumdz]
Yeah, in a way, I'm seeing that &quot;ny&quot; in Scott's &quot;Gilcûnya&quot; and &quot;Dûnyain&quot; as something like a Portuguese nh. So, in Portuguese orthpgraphy .... like a &quot;Guilcunha&quot; and &quot;Dunhain&quot;, perhaps! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:2ziwumdz
Although, I do wonder if there is a y sound right after the K [in Kûniüric], like K-you-nee-yur-ick. Like literally saying the letter Q. Q-nee-yur-ick.[/quote:2ziwumdz]
Ah, though that would be a very &quot;Anglophone&quot; style pronunciation, as that added /j/ before long /u:/ is a particularly English-language thing -- like the typical English-speaker's pronunciation of &quot;Cuba&quot; as /kju:bə/, whereas a Spanish speaker would say /ku:βa/. Thus, I think I lean away from that &quot;K-you-&quot; pronunciation, as I would expect to see that actually written &quot;Kyûniüric&quot;.

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:2ziwumdz
But think it like this. How would the Scylvendi pronounce it and how would, say, the Ainoni pronounce it. The Scylvendi probably use the hard 'g' sound, while the Ainoni use the revved j, or just silence the j. Very much like how Portuguese use the hard g and the revved j for the letter &quot;G&quot; while the Spanish silence the &quot;G&quot;. And both are so close together in land and language they're like big brother and little brother to each other in the Iberian peninsula.
Which makes me think if that's the reason why Scott will not create pronunciation audio for us. One method of pronunciation for one race/group of people could be entirely different than the pronunciation of the next race/group of people, in the context of his world. [/quote:2ziwumdz]
Though are we assuming that the Scylvendi and Ainoni are all encountering these names in a literate context -- that is, they see the name written down and are trying to pronounce it in accordance with their &quot;standard orthographies&quot; -- or are they encountering these names in an oral context -- that is, hearing a name spoken that we (as obligated readers in this situation) are seeing represented as Scott writes it on the page in some orthography or another? I would guess the latter, such that Scott is showing us the name written as someone in Eärwa would write it (or in transliteration or transcription from whatever script system they use <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->) and characters from outside the speech community associated with that orthography simply do their best to reproduce the name as it is spoken to them, rather than pronounce a name that they see written ....

Mmmm, more musings and ramblings! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Names and Pronunciation posted 19 August 2008 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:jyrjg7b7
Sounds like you're meticulous like me. I have chunks written, but from time to time I go back and change a word here, add a sentence there, its always like I'm never satisfied. I've realized this can be a deadly trap, so I've placed my main story in dormancy months ago (it'll always be my prime story until its complete <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->), and moved on to scribbling up a couple of other ones.[/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Yeah, I've got a few other ideas kicking around -- actually, some that I think are better developed and might be faster to bring to fruition -- but I am determined not to leave my &quot;primary concept&quot; (not that the current primary concept looks a lot like it did all those years ago, but I still think of it as being the primary concept whatever it looks like! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->).

Quote: &quot;carlsefni&quot;:jyrjg7b7
imho, it's always best to create the skeleton of the story first. From the beginning to the very end. Draw it up like Achamian's map. The rest of the journey is to add everything else. [/quote:jyrjg7b7]
I think you're absolutely right -- and I wish I could say that much and been clear to me from the beginning, but .... <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: -->
It actually took a long stint of thesis writing in grad school to reveal this wisdom to me -- mostly as a result of not having developed a strong enough outline while writing the thesis! <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> But the lessons finally sank in and have served me well since. Now I just need to apply them to my &quot;primary concept&quot; (and all the little conceptlets frolicking in its wake).

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:jyrjg7b7
Quote: &quot;carlsefni&quot;:jyrjg7b7

Yes, after reading TDTCB, I decided I could at least get away with a few diaeresis and circumflex marks. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I do know many readers find that sort of thing distracting, but I like to think it adds a little &quot;seasoning&quot;.[/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Do you eat your salad plain? Without the oil or vinegar or salt or dressing? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->[/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Heh, the way season things, I could strain the limits of Unicode in words and names. <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:jyrjg7b7
Balance is crucial.
Imho, balance must be struck between writing for yourself and writing for an audience. Put in everything you want, then balance it out -change it- with what you think would work best for the reader.
In your scenario, it would probably help greatly to add an appendix for proper pronunciations (more thorough than Scott's. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->)
Then again, mystery breeds faith and devotion. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
Just look at us here on this topic. [/quote:jyrjg7b7]
<!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Yes, there's an argument that I should just draft everything with all the names and words in the orthography I like -- and then, should I ever get anyone interested in it, wait for an editor to say &quot;Goldangit, what are all these dots and slashes and things? Get rid of that stuff!&quot; <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

On the other hand, my two guiding principles are 1) write names in an orthography that lends itself naturally to nudging English speakers towards the intended pronunciation, and 2) the letters and spellings &quot;look good&quot; to me on the page as written. To that end, I'm inclined to stick to the 26 Latin letters that are familiar to English speakers and deploy diacritics relatively sparingly, in cases where I think they help the cause. (It also leaves me with my /y/ vowel problem -- but that's a miniscule issue next to me not completing a draft! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->)

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:jyrjg7b7
For example, their are many groups/races of people not able to do the &quot;th&quot; sound no matter how hard they try. Words like thick, three, through will always be pronounced as tick, tree, true. [/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Or (IMO, worse!), in southeast Britain: fick, free, frue!

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:jyrjg7b7
So.. once again, I elude to Scott not doing these pronunciation audio files because he doesn't want to cement the pronunciations, when the words could very well be pronounced differently to each reader with their language background, and to the characters themselves and their language backgrounds. [/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Well, I would settle for knowing how native speakers of a particular speech community pronounced their own names. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;carlsefni&quot;:jyrjg7b7
Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:jyrjg7b7
It would probably be best if Scott could give us some cross-referencing info on real languages to the PoN languages. On real groups of people to the ones in PoN.
Right now I can only assume the cross-referencing with my limited history and language knowledge. <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( --> [/quote:jyrjg7b7][/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Well, I recall this quote from earlier in this same thread:
Quote: &quot;Lies And Perfidy&quot;:jyrjg7b7
It's worth noting, for those who missed it in the glossary of TTT, that the names we get in the books are chiefly Ketyai interpretations; for instance, &quot;Coithus&quot; is actually &quot;Koütha&quot; in the original Galeoth, which definitely has more of a Norsirai (read: Anglo-Saxon) ring to it. It'd be interesting to see what some of the other equivalents are.[/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Now unfortuntely, I haven't got TTT yet <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: --> and so I haven't seen the glossary there! So perhaps that would answer more of my questions about pronunciations and even similarities or analogues between some of Eärwa's fictional languages and Real World languages. Time (and successful intercontinental delivery from Amazon) will tell. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Oh, and another quote from earlier in the thread:
Quote: &quot;legatus&quot;:jyrjg7b7
I remember mentally pronouncing Cnaiur with an awkward soft c from start to finish on my first read through of TDTCB... then I got to the appendix.
&quot;Nay-yur? Who-and-the-what-now? Ohhhhhh... silent c.&quot;[/quote:jyrjg7b7]
Now that's an interesting thing -- to me, it implies Scott is expressing a name transliterated from a particular (probably alphabetic) writing system that (much like Modern English) is preserving traces of archaic pronunciation (whatever sound &quot;cn&quot; once represented) in its orthography even though its pronunciation has evolved. (Pretty much parallel to the &quot;kn&quot; in Modern English words like &quot;know&quot;, once upon a time pronounced /kn/ but now simply /n/.) view post


Names and Pronunciation posted 20 August 2008 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;carlsefni&quot;:22totesf
My pain remains in whether to admit &quot;y&quot; to represent that elusive /y/ vowel as in French chute or German Blüte? So far, my decision has been &quot;no&quot;, since I'm pretty sure English speakers would simply pronounce a &quot;y&quot; vowel as a /ai/ diphthong (as in English &quot;why&quot;) or possibly a long i vowel (as in English place-names like &quot;Shelby&quot;), and I can't use a German-style &quot;ü&quot; either, since I'm pretty sure I want the diaeresis to distinguish syllabication in vowels. And since that /y/ vowel is not terribly Anglophone, I think I'll to abandon marking it distinctly, and simply write it as an &quot;i&quot; or a &quot;u&quot; ... probably just &quot;i&quot;, since I'm actually not very happy with the look of the letter &quot;u&quot; in names where I would like a /y/ vowel.[/quote:22totesf]
Hah! A brainwave: In the narrative, I could simply write either &quot;u&quot; or &quot;i&quot; for my /y/ vowel in names, depending on which I preferred. I could reveal the awful truth in the appendices, with rabidly precise pronunciation guides to names ....

Not that this matters unless I finish a full draft -- for a start! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Back to work!

Hmm, there's a thread somewhere on the forum for people writing things .... I should take this particular sub-topic there! view post


Music..not generally... posted 25 August 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionMusic..not generally... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1586a7iv
Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:1586a7iv
Any of you like Def Leppard? Pour Some Sugar On Me, and others cannnot be denied.[/quote:1586a7iv]
ROFL! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> That, and &quot;Paul Revere&quot; by Beastie Boys is what got me into listening to music.[/quote:1586a7iv]
Actually, I was huge Def Leppard fan in high school. <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> Hysteria was the big new album at that time (which, for good or for ill, pretty much reveals my age!), and I think I had, like, all the singles on vinyl (some good b-side tracks on those, actually -- I remember quite digging the &quot;Ride into the Sun&quot; remake at the time, though I'll be durned if I can remember how it goes now!)). But I always actually liked the High 'n' Dry album best! I freely confess that that I found Adrenalize rather disappointing and kinda stopped following the band after that!


(I would expect a band with Vivian Campbell (e.g. Dio's Holy Diver) on board to kick out some more memorable riff-meistery ... but I think I'm still waiting to hear it.) view post


Names and Pronunciation posted 25 August 2008 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeNames and Pronunciation by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:u1i768fh
The Ceneian and Nansur Empires are north-western empires. The Ceneian was the greater of the 2 empires, and Nansur is the current empire, which morphed out of the Ceneian empire.
Now, I'm taking a stab here.... to place it in today's history, the Ceneian Empire = British Empire in all its glory once upon a time, and the Nansur is the now debased British Empire today (or U.S.A). In the context of language, then, High Sheyic = Old English, Low Sheyic = modern English.[/quote:u1i768fh]

Well, except that Old English (technically speaking, in use from roughly the mid-5th century to the mid-12th century) was long gone when the British Empire was in existence. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> The language of the British Empire was simply Modern English -- perhaps subtlety different from American English at the same period (or from contemporary British and/or American English), but clearly the same language!

I suppose the obvious example would be the Roman Empire and the later Romance-speaking kingdoms/nations, in which the modern Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Catalan, Romanian, etc. languages are descended from Latin, though Latin itself remained in use as a (largely) fossilized language of ritual and prestige long after its spoken form(s) evolved into a variety of separate descendant languages. But of course we can make similar comparisons with all modern languages, which of course are evolved forms of some ancestral language. We can also point to various situations where certain languages remained in use as administrative or liturgical languages long after they ceased to be spoken in a particular region or polity (like written Sumerian, which remain in use in the Babylonian empire though the most common spoken language, if not Akkadian itself, was perhaps some other East Semitic language). Or, again, Achaemenid Persian empire, whose rulers presumably spoke some kind of Old Persian but used a form of Aramaic as the official language of government.

Well, anyway, I shall need to get TTT and check out the glossary of &quot;names as Drusas Achamian knew them&quot; -- but it sounds to me like there's still relatively little information of the languages of Eärwa available! I'd definitely like to know more about the language families, their relationships and characteristics ... simply because I get a kick out of that stuff. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Music..not generally... posted 26 August 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionMusic..not generally... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1ac4qnnu
Hysteria is a legendary album in my collection. My very first tape. My very first rock band t-shirt was the Hysteria cover album with concert dates on the back. Amazingly, my young brother and one of his friends, for several years now - up to this very day - rock that t-shirt like its some priceless holy relic, and walk around downtown Toronto like they're kings and all eyes should be on them and all women should be on their knees in their presence.[/quote:1ac4qnnu]

Heh, in high school, I used to have an awesomely chauvinistic Def Lep T-shirt promoting the &quot;Women&quot; single from Hysteria. Thinking back, I'm kinda surprised no gang of irate feminists whupped my @rse for it! Bizarrely, I think my younger sister eventually stole it and wore it as some kind of advanced ironic display. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1ac4qnnu
Anyhow... I'm with you carlsefni, I lost all interest in the band when I heard Adrenalize (Let's Get Rocked?! Puh-leeeeease!). But I was also listening to Jane's Addiction during those times (when don't I listen to them! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->). [/quote:1ac4qnnu]

Yeah, Def Lep are kind of on that list of '80s rock bands who got steamrolled by grunge and whatever else. In 1992 (or whenever Adrenalize came out) I was soaking up the likes of Kyuss, Monster Magnet, and Trouble .... And, on the lighter, jammier side, Phish. <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1ac4qnnu
Hysteria and Pyromania were the ones I enjoyed. I almost don't even remember High N Dry. [/quote:1ac4qnnu]

Admittedly, I must have been pretty young when High N Dry came out! I never actually heard the band until high school (by which time the family and MTV, which was sufficiently non-sucky back then that they actually played a wide variety of music!) and I bought Hysteria first, then worked back to Pyromania and finally High N Dry, which I ended up liking best! Well, worth revisiting: slightly more aggressive production and some great riff-driven songs. However, I never really warmed to their first album, On through the Night.

Quote: &quot;Cnaiür&quot;:1ac4qnnu
The last song they made that I enjoyed was a b-side &quot;Two Steps Behind&quot;. Ever since, I haven't heard a thing by them, cept the news of the guitarist passing on, which just goes to show what alcohol can do. <!-- s:| --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_neutral.gif" alt=":|" title="Neutral" /><!-- s:| -->[/quote:1ac4qnnu]

Yeah, they are certainly a band who've had their alcohol-related problems. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> view post


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