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posts by ashaman33 Commoner | joined 14 Dec 2007 | 6

Re: Cnauir is the No-God posted 14 Dec 2007, 05:12 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by ashaman33, Commoner

I just finished reading the trilogy an hour ago. I don't know who my favorite character is but I do respect Cnaiur the most. He is the most honest character to me. He does delude himself some but so does everyone. I gues Kelhuss is the most honest character with himself but he is such a damnable liar I can't fully trust him. Although the end of the book he does give promise that he realizes that his talents should be bent to serve the greater good (stopping the 2nd apocalypse) and not just to protect the Dunyain. I loved the way Cnaiur was able to protect himself from Kellhus. His inner struggles with coming to grips with himself as a man, as one of the People, as one who thinks different from the people becauae fo Moengus's intervention, as the killer of his father, as the leader of the UTemot, as the leader of the Utemot who is disrespected by all other Scylvendi no matter how much he tries living in the way of the people and being better at being Scylvendi (WAR) than any of them, struggling to protect himself from Kellhus's manipulation, struggling as an ally with the Inhitrians, struggling to see Kellhus take his woman, struggling to make every sacrifice to have his vengeance on Moengus, struggling with his homosexuality. I would think these are enough struggles to drive most anyone mad. Essentially this is how I read Cnaiur. He is a young man, whose first love is forbidden love. Homsexuality. He is guided by his mentor to see that the ways of his people are limited and so to see himself as different. He is led by his mentor and lover to betray his father leading to his father's death. He realizes aftrewards that he was used by his mentor/lover who didn't really love him. He realizes that he was turned against his father, his family, his people by someone who doesn't love him and as such he doubts everything that he became as a result of Moengus's teachings. Rationally, he repudiates Moengus and his teachings and spends the next 29 years attempting to be everything and more that a Scylvendi man should be. He is that but is never forgiven by his people for his betrayal of his father and for being a "weeping faggot". Realizing that he has spent his life of 29 years trying to be the best Scylvendi possible and realizing it will never be enough. Kellhus represents a chance to get revenge on the person he holds responsible for his never ending shame. When he finds Moengus, his love for him raises to the surface from where he had buried it for 30 long years, BUT his INTELLECT alows him to realize that he cannot trust anything that Moengus says and he kills Moengus. His ability to use his intellect over his passion as a world born man amkes him unique among all the world born men that we have seen in my opinion. What do you all think? view post

posted 14 Dec 2007, 18:12 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":2xue1jlt]A very good post on Cnaiur, and I agree with most of it. The part of don't agree with (and there is *huge* discussion over on "Is Cnaiur gay) is that I don't think he is homosexual just because he had one male lover, and that one at 15. I don't think Cnaiur thinks he is homosexual either because he was utterly surprised, if I remember correctly, when he was called a "weeping faggot". Deep down, most of my gay friends knew they were homosexual, and maybe just denied it to spare family or whatever. But they would not be surprised to be called faggot. I think in a culture as the Scylenvendi, where love and other tender feelings are ignored, any person of either gender who showed an interest or caring when you were 15 would probably end up as your lover. It is unforutunate that Moengus had ulterior motives. Another point to bring up is how come we are so facinated by Cnaiur and his male lover? Why don't we bring up whether Moehgus is gay or not? Or whether Emsi and Serwe are lesbians? I still can't decide if Kellus is a liar, either, or just tells you what you want to hear.[/quote:2xue1jlt] I don't believe that Cnaiur thinks that he is gay, but when the sexual and emotional relation ship that he cares the most about is a homosexual one, then he is at least bi-sexual. Just re-read his emotions at the end before he kills Moenghus, he still has major feelings for the guy that to me says he buries his feelings of homosexuality because it is contrary to the way the people think. It also makes you wonder about him buggering Conphas. As to Kellhus being a liar. He admits several times throughot the books in his own thoughts that he is lying to people, telling them what they want to hear. I know that he lies to Esmenet. Most of the time he doesn't have to lie because he manipulates people so well with the truth that they end up believing what he wants them to believe which is usually a lie. Don't forget his two biggest lies, that he is a prince of Athrithu and that he is a prophet. Also when Kellhus was speaking to his father, Moenghus did an explanation of how Kellhus came to the point where he is by following the Dunyain way and he specifically mentioned that he had to lie. So yes, Kellhus is the biggest liar in the series. Again Kellhus main purpose in joining the Holy War was to manipulate it so that he could control it and use it as a weapon against his father. Now 99.9% of everything that he actually said was true but because he was speaking within the framework of a lie, it was all manipulation and in furtherance of his lie. I think it was Jordan's the Wheel of Time where I first read that the best lies are almost all truth with just one tiny part that makes it a lie. That way it is very believable because it is in fact mostly true. view post

posted 14 Dec 2007, 20:12 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":1odelxe6]The whole scene with Conphas was rape, and rape is not about sex, its about power, so I don't think it qualifies as a "relationship", or even homesexual. I suspect his feelings for Moehgus initially came from the validation and interest Moengus (however fake) showed him as a child. Think of a Catholic priest and all these sex abuse scandals. The priest cultivates trust and an interest in the child, many times in the context of distant or unavailable fathers, then later the relationship turns sexual. Using the same analogy, with Cnaiur being the eqivalent of an alter boy (wow, he is so *not* an alter boy :lol: ), I know a few childhood-priest abuse victims personally. While they struggle with depression, anger, drug use/alcoholism, and suicide attempts, not one of them considers themselves gay or even bi-sexual - even if it was several incidents of molestation, even if they admit is was (shamefully) pleasurable. If that is the relationship that Cnaiur "cares" about the most, and I would substitute the phrase "affects the most", I think its in the context of betrayal and hate, not love and caring. You certainly can't describe his feelings for Moenhgus as warm and fuzzy, contrary to most people's memories of a first love.[/quote:1odelxe6] The Conphas thing coul be argued but it i snot important enough to me right now to argue so I cede the point. I definitely feel that Cnaiur loves Moenghus. His "hate" for Maoenghus is so extreme, I believe that he simply brainwashes himself to think that he has hated Moenghus for all these years. I think that emotionally he loves him still. My strongest reason for this is his reaction when he finally meets Moenghus again. He allows himself to be held and passionately kissed and he even resonds with "ardour" to Moenghus's kiss. This involuntary reaction is truth to me. He did not intend it but it is how he felt. Notwithstanding how he felt, what he knows intecllectually is that Moenghus is Dunyain and thus a manipulator and a liar. Moenghus cannot be trusted and is still the reason why he has suffered for most of his life. Moenghus is why he was never accepted as one of the people. Plus the fact that Moenghus immediately wants to continue the pretense of love that Cnaiur knows is not true is just one more reason to kill him. Passion vs Intellect. Cnaiur os one of the strongest intellects in Earwa. The conflict of his intellect, passion, and the culture of the People turned him insane, but the strongest part of Cnaiur is intellect and it won out in the end. War is Intellect. Moenghus is Cnaiur's enemy and even though his passion for Moenghus is clear in the end, intellectually there can be only one outcome. I was very proud of Cnaiur for killing Moenghus. view post

posted 15 Dec 2007, 06:12 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":3sd3tfri]I also was quite proud Cnaiur killled Moenghus. Depending on AE and if Cnaiur returns, we probably will not know what exactly Cnauir felt. I just caution you when you equate "ardour" (sexual pleasure) with love or positive feelings. As I am doing my thesis on Women, Poverty and HIV across the globe, I can tell you that I have come across a lot of stuff where men describe having erections as young boys when the priest was fondling them, or girls reporting that it "felt good" when their fathers performed oral sex on them. The body responds automatically sometimes...and I hope I haven't offended anyone with particular sensitivities, I cleaned the actual language up quite a bit.[/quote:3sd3tfri] I understand how the same thing can be interpreted differently. I have a degree in Womens Studies so I am pretty familiar with what you are saying. However, there are really no blanket rules, we can make generalizations but there are exceptions to every rule. From the totality of the circumstances I really think that Cnaiur loves Moenghus. It is undeniable that Cnaiur loved Moenghus when he was a youth. It is undeniable that he later repuiated this love and claimed to hate Moenghus with a passion above all else. The only question is, was his professed hate just a reaction to the fact that Moenghus left and he had to rationalize living with the People and knowing that Moenghus didn't truly love him. I think that Cnaiur's hate is real but to me such hate is only possible because of the depth of his love. Both love and hate are real. What wins out isn't love or hate, but intellect. Regardless of whether Cnaiur loves Moenghus, the fact is that Moenghus does not love Cnaiur and only wants to use Cnaiur. Whether you analyze it from the hate perspective or the love perspective, both of them are pretty good rationalizations for Cnaiur using the chorae on the man who caused him such pain and then tries to begin manipulating him again. view post

Cnaiur Badass Quote! posted 16 Dec 2007, 00:12 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnaiur Badass Quote! by ashaman33, Commoner

"Listen to me. I will not lie to you. The Nansur can afford no quarter, because they can afford no Truth! We all die this night! He let these words ring into silence. I know nothing of your Afterlife. I know nothing of your Gods or their greed for glory. But I do know this: In days to come, widows shall curse me as they weep! Fields shall go to seed! Sons and daughters shall be sold into slavery! Fathers shall die desolate, knowing their line is extinct! This night. I shall carve my mark into the Nansurium, and thousands shall cry out for want of my mercy! And the spark became flame. Scylvendi! they roared. Scylvendi!" pgs 156-157 TTT paperback That is one of the baddest quotes ever and perfect for a situation where you know you are about to die. Frack it! All you have to live for is kicking the biggest crap out of the enemy and make them pay a thousand fold for you one life! view post

posted 21 Dec 2007, 06:12 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":1sczt3pe]ashaman33, I forgot to ask you what you thought Kellhus was lying to Esmi about. I can't decide if he really loves her, or is just using her as a broodmare. Or does he take her away to get back at Akka, whom I thought he truly liked? And for all his lying, is he good or "bad"? I s'pose we are getting away from this thread...[/quote:1sczt3pe] I do not believe that Kellhus loves Esmenet. He does not know what love is. Achamian realizes this and tells Esmi that Kellhus "knows" her like he knows everyone but he doesn't love her like Achamian does. When the synthese possessed Esmi and spoke to Kellhus asking What are the Dunyain? Kellhus threatens to kill Esmi. Later when Esmi speaks to him about that episode, he says to her that he only said "what needed to be heard." In his mind he admits that this is a lie. So it seems that he was willing to sacrifice her. That's on page 254 of my papperback TTT. But Kellhus lies all the time to everyonee about the fact that he is a prince, about his purpose for joining the Holy War. What is interesting to me is that he is changing and no longer sees himself as solely Dunyain. In fact he kills his father because his father still thinks as a typical Dunyain. A typical Dunyain is amoral. Moenghus has committed many horrible things such as the sacrifice of the woman and child in the room with the imprisoned skin spies. These acts will damn his soul. Once Moenghus realizes the truth of damnation then he will rationally come to the same conclusion as the Inchoroi that to avoid damnation he must close off the void by killing almost all the souls of Earwa. Kellhus realizes that the rational path for Moenghus would be to kill Kellhus, usurp the new religion, unite the Fanim and the Inrithi in a false battle against Golgotterath and the Consult on purpose so that the humans will lose. This is revealed on page 375 of TTT paperback. Kellhus hears voices and has visions. He thinks that he hears the voice of the NO God in his head. I don't know what this means for Kellhus's future. For now Kellhus's plans are good. He wants to unite all the world, Fanim, Inrithi, all men to battle the Second Apocalypse. He doesn't mind lying to everyone and manipulating them to accomplish this. The end justifies the means. Will he stay true to this path? Will power corrupt him? Will the No God corrupt him? I guess we will have to RAFO. view post


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