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Madness Peralogue | joined 08 September 2006 | 63 posts


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 09 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Madness, Peralogue

I don't really know if people read these posts after all this poker spam though I hope they do because some really interestings questions were posed.

First, to Warrior-Poet, who started this thread.

Isn't Maithanet an Anasuribor as well. Something I find interesting is that everyone seems to think that Kellhus, Moeghus, or Kellhus' children as possible Harbringers and Saviors but everyone seems to forget that Maithanet is Moenghus' son therefore an Anasurimbor.


The thing I find so amazing in The Prince of Nothing trilogy is that Bakker really does answer everything. He left almost no loose ends in the trilogy itself while setting up possible themes and plots for a future series.

To answer your question, Warrior-Poet, Kellhus is the only true Harbringer. Before meeting Moenghus, Kellhus grasps the Thousandfold Thought in The Warrior-Prophet. To my understanding this is just another step in Dunyain principle transfered into the real world. Essentially fate grapsed through The Logos but something to be grapsed increasingly through more probability trances and based on ability. I assume this because of Kellhus's thoughts during his encounter with Moenghus.

His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed that his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it.


Moenghus being the original and only other Dunyain to travel into the world in two thousand years, he grapsed the Thousandfold Thought first.

Kellhus having grasped more of the Thousand Thought than his father realizes Moenghus will come to believe. Dunyain originally have no belief aside from the Logos as everything is a tool to them. Moenghus, however, having put out his eyes to survive as a Cishaurim, no longer has all of the abilities of a Dunyain.

The crimes you've commited, Father... the sins... When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi [who believe themselves damned, and so seek to aid The No-God in destroying existence]. As Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy... And you will war as they war.


Hense, Kellhus kills Moenghus to delay the Second Apocalypse, as he was planning on raging a false-war against Golgotterath in a bid to weaken the forces of good. Therefore, he is not a harbringer based on the Thousandfold Thought.

Bakker also answers your question on Maithanet in The Thousandfold Thought.

"In this world," Moenghus said, "there's nothing more precious than our blood - as you have no doubt surmised. But the children we bear by worldborn [non-Dunyain] women lack the breadth of our abilities. Maithanet is not Dunyain. He could do no more than prepare the way [by declaring a holy war that his half-brother could dominate for his journey]."


So likewise this answers the question of the child of Esmenet and Kellhus or Moenghus's Scylvendi bastard, as they would and will just be more than a man as is Maithanet, but not Dunyain therefore not Harbringer.

I think the next different line of questioning in this post was Edge of Certainty's on Seswatha.

also, isn't it rumored that Anasurimbor Nau-Cayuti was the illegitimate son of Seswatha?


I think you are refering to a passage from The Thousandfold Thought where Esmenet reads The Sagas. During this time she reads "The Kayutiad."

"The Kayutiad," the verse epic of Celmomas's youngest and most glorious son, Nau-Cayuti, where Seswatha was both teacher and surrogate father.


I believe by using the word surrogate Bakker just meant that Seswatha was there for Nau-Cayuti more than Celmomas in the role of friend, teacher, and mentor.

I hope that answered your questions for this thread. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 23 September 2006 in Author Q & AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Madness, Peralogue

I'm wondering why Kellhus and Moenghus are both of the Few.


Ikiru, I believe, without discounting Scott's words obviously, that your answer is found in TTT and a little in Krijates Iryssas's last post (See above.)

Though it's never blatantly written as true, though some like to take it for certainty, I would say that the reason so many Dunyain, and synonymously Anasurimbor, are of the Few lies in the legends and rumours of Seswatha's fathering of Nau-Cayuti.

This, of course, is also assuming that Nau-Cayuti had any children before he died. However, what better reason, again aside from Scott's words, is there for the only two Dunyain exiled from Ishual, and subsequently probably more Dunyain, to be of the Few? view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 27 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Madness, Peralogue

I guess perhaps there's been a lack of interesting topics lately, as no one seems to be writing much in the forums concerning the Prince of Nothing. I hope people are still reading, however, as there's so much to be discussed and brainstormed about these books.

First, I'd like to write a rebuttal towards Cynical's points on my ideas concerning Moenghus' children.

Moenghus's statements on the children not being Dunyain are not reliable indicators of anything other than Moenghus beliefs and he is shown to not be infallible. In fact, his errors lead to his death.


True, Moenghus' statements on Dunyain + non-Dunyain offspring cannot be taken as 100% truth, as it is speculation on his part and a character of even Moenghus' abilities can be wrong. However, the statements made are not wrong due to his beliefs, as he has not yet come to believe anything, but due to his hindered Dunyain abilities and progress through the Thousandfold Thought. Likewise, his death is not caused by any error of his unless you count him putting out his eyes, but caused by Kellhus' more extensive exploration of the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus did not yet know the possibilities that branched from his encounter with Kellhus as it had taken him a large part of his thirty years to grasp that the Thought included a summons to Ishual and his true son. I honestly don't think he explored the Thousandfold Thought much after grasping this, thinking that possibilites and the shortest path would become apparent to him upon meeting his son.

As to your other points, Cynical. In all honesty I think the first three have already been negated by other members in this and other threads.

To just quickly sum them up, though I wish I had my copy of TTT handy.

Yes, the Dunyain cull their own ranks. Considering that they've been doing this for two thousands years, I would assume that by these days they're doing a little less culling. Though this somewhat goes off on a tangent I'd like to throw in another thought I've had as it ties into this, though I know I'm negating one of my own points from this or another thread. All Dunyain are not all Anasurimbor. They can't be or otherwise you would have an effect of imbreading rather than, for lack of a better word, outbreading. Anyhow, as the Dunyain did and do cull their ranks every generation, each subsequent generation gets smarter then breeds with eachother, then cull the less intelligent and physically fit again, and repeat. Compound that two thousand years.

Therefore, to tie it back to your point or points I guess as it hits a couple of them, when Moenghus and Kellhus couple with worldborn women their children can never compare to true Dunyain. Which is also why Kellhus uses Esmenet, her being a very intelligent women in a male dominate society.

Point 2 and 3 kind of deal with my above paragraph. When commenting or thinking on the Dunyain you have to think in terms of two thousand years, as Cnaiur does. Moenghus probably did try and duplicate Ishual and their teachings when raising Maithanet for his task. However, knowing that a worldborn child couldn't compare with true Dunyain, there was no need for Moenghus to try and train Maithanet as such. In my opinion, I think Moenghus viewed Maithanet as a tool just as any other worldborn man. Though this is speculation on my part, Moenghus had probably grasped the beginnings of the Thousandfold Thought just after Maithanet was born, and so saw Maithanet's uses in all the possibilities.

Your third point is as well ignorant of the above concept. Make no mistake, a Dunyain baby is not a worldborn baby. Perhaps in the days following the apocalypse a worldborn baby might have compared to a Dunyain one but, again, not after the compounding factor.

Genetics inheritance, especially for intelligence, isn't a sure thing. The Dunyain breed for reflexes and intelligence and then cull ... but that only means that doesn't insure superiority over world born men, just high performance in those areas.


Your right, Genetic inheritance especially for intelligence isn't a sure thing. However, as they do kill the offspring that don't measure up, as I said they probably have to do a lot less culling these days.

I don't mean to sound superior or rude because I, in all likelihood, could be wrong in my writings, however, your last point I think was the only one of your four that brought up an intelligent counter-point.

Maithanet is inferior to Dunyain but superior to worldborn man. He's inbetween, in my understanding. He is also one of the Few as are many Dunyain, I assume, but as Proyas says to Achamian in TDTCB (oh, how I wish I had my books with me), many Shriah's have been of the Few. They just choose not to stain themselves with the blood-of-the-onta.

Maithanet was only able to

seize such control of the Thousand Temples, uncover spies and skin spies, and ... personally seize and disable a skin spy sorcerer


because of Moenghus' lengthy interrogation of the Consult skin-spies. Without Moenghus' as a father, with his grasping of the Thousandfold Though, Maithanet, regardless of natural intelligence and ability would not have been to do these things.

I am running out of time here to continue writing, however, I will attempt to give examples before I get cut off.

Think. Moenghus has Maithanet play to Inrithi faith by walking unharmed from heathen lands. He's able to uncover every factions spies through Cishaurim intelligence and counter-intelligence who would be able to identify Xerius' spies in the Thousand Temples, and pull out their own when their task was done, giving the illusion of cleansed. Maithanet himself could be the Cishaurim's spy if need be.

I'll give you a thought before I leave because I just thought about it.

What if the prior Shriah was a Consult skin-spy and through Moenghus' interrogations of the captured skin-spies he was able to assern this?

Hope that gave you food for thought, Cynical and any other readers. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 19 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Madness, Peralogue

I think most of you are putting too much stock in Achamian's dreams as more than dreams.

We know that the Mandate Schoolman dream of the first apocalypse nightly. It seems throughout this thread and others there is consensus, at least on that. We know that these dreams are the memories of Seswatha, founder of the Mandate, from the eve of the No-God's awakening to the day Anaxophus V wielded the Heron Spear against the No-God at Mengedda.

To my knowledge only the final dream in TTT contradicts it's counterparts throughout the series. Sometimes Mr. Bakker has written different parts of the same dream as Achamian groggily claws towards conciousness at different times throughout the PoN, and so dreams may have seemed contradictory. However, I have found no instances except the above that prove the dreams are changing in fact.

As for the dreams changing in Achamian's perception of them, I will agree to that. Post-torture by the Scarlet Spires, Achamian begins handling the dreams better and better. In the beginning of the series we'd often happen upon Achamian crying out in the middle of the night, waking and weeping sometimes in joy others in sorrow. After the torture, whenever Mr. Bakker allowed us to experience Eärwa through Achamian, he would still wake perhaps, but not so much in his previous anguish.

What I think many of you fail to integrate into your speculation on this last dream and in other speculations, is the realism of Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters. All of the humans in his books are to the end just that; human. Yes, of course, in a different time and a different place. However, each of his characters are distinct; in their characteristics, mannerisms, and personalities. Each has grown from their circumstance, whittled and hewed, into where we enter their lives throughout the books.

I can only imagine Mr. Bakker's sheer amazement and awe as he makes his journey, writing his books. Sure, when one sits down to write, they may have certain events they want told and a basic plan for their piece. However, as we book owners hold the result, when one has a world and characters as real as Cû'jara Cinmoi's, the characters take matters into their own hands. As I'm sure Mr. Bakker would agree, any interim events between what the writer's basic plan was, the small or large things, are written by his characters. Their actions and words, with characters so real, become more their own and less his written word.

Taking that to heart, we return to look on Achamian and his dreams. They are becoming just that; his dreams. Dreams are subconcious thoughts, fears, hurts, loves, emotions as a whole, rearing from the blackness of our soul trying to find form in our sleeping minds. We know that throughout the books Achamian dreams, a handful of times, his own dreams. The one I'm specifically speaking of, though unfortunantly I can't find the passage, is when Achamian dreams of Esmenet and Kellhus. A result of his feelings of betrayal.

Shortly before his last dream of Anaxophus V and the Battleplain, Achamian learns from Cnaiür that Kellhus is not what he seems but rather that he is Dûnyain. He then has the emotional rush of almost winning Esmenet back, though I believe she is too far gone especially now that Kellhus is becoming deluged by emotions, then fighting to save the Holy War from Conphas and Esmenet from the Ciphrang. I can imagine that my normal dreams might be a bit altered after a day like that too, especially when Seswatha's memories, Achamian's dreams, are becoming more parallels to Achamian's day to day life. Perhaps he sees himself as Seswatha and, in that dream, Kellhus as Anaxophus. This is definitly where I conclude that Achamian will not entirely trust Kellhus's promise to war with the Consult, pre-Consult attack in force, based on the dream, which I view there as Achamian's feelings, and based on his new understanding and opinion of Kellhus as Dûnyain.

As for parallels between Achamian and Seswatha, I believe the reason that some of you cannot connect the two yet is that the PoN is an introductory series. The speculation on parallels between Seswatha and Achamian, and Celmomas II and Kellhus is warranted and, I think, the parallels are intentional. Curethan wrote that Seswatha was "highly manipulative and focused on defeating the consult only," in an attempt to disassociate him from Achamian. However, at the end of TTT Achamian has been molded and shaped, sculpted by events into exactly that. He is not the Achamian we were introduced to. Emotional torment and affliction can be just as monumentally changing, if not more so, than physical hurt. If you fail to see the parallels yet then I believe that upon opening the first book of The Aspect-Emperor and slipping into Cû'jara Cinmoi's world anew, you will be convinced beyond a doubt. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 20 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Madness, Peralogue

Thank ya, Harrol. I wouldn't be surprised if you can tell but I'm excited to read the first book of The Aspect-Emperor as well.

anor, your right in saying that Achamian's sorcerous power at the end of TTT could hardly be compared with Seswatha's. Seswatha was a progidy, sorcerer of rank of the Sohonc at the age of 15, years later becoming Grandmaster. The Sohonc, in my understanding of the original Gnostic Schools of the Ancient North, was the most powerful of the Schools responsible for countless elaborations of the Gnosis; the result of cohesive study with Nonmen Quya.

During the events of the holy war, we learn that Mandate Schoolman stand a head and shoulders above the Anagogic Schoolman of the Three Seas in regards to sorcerous power. We, unfortantly at this point, have no basis for comparison between the Gnosis of the Mandate and the Gnosis of the Mangaecca as throughout the last three centuries skirmishing had ceased between the Mandate and Consult.

Based on the Gnosis alone, and specifically events in which we've witnessed Achamian's latent powers, we can't say he's entirely a failure as a sorcerer. Granted, once again, at the end of TTT Achamian is not Seswatha's parallel. However, we know that their are twenty intervening years between the end of TTT and the beginning of book one of The Aspect-Emperor. There are countless ways, if Achamian were so inclined, that he could become just as powerful, if not more so, than Seswatha by the time we meet again with him in the pages of The-Aspect Emperor. Those of you who've read The Aspect-Emperor thread in this forum know of my speculation on Achamian intruding into the mountain fastnesses of the Nonmen of Ishterebinth, so I'll not repeat myself. My point in the last paragraph of my previous post was just that in the PoN the parallels between Seswatha and Achamian could only be implied. The story that Cû'jara Cinmoi has set out to tell, in my understanding, is exactly that; yet to be told. Obviously, he wanted the PoN story to be told to give us, the reader, an enriching and real background for the true story; The Second Apocalypse.

To finish off before this becomes the darkness that comes before my being late for work I think, based on Seswatha's memories as seen through Mandate dreams, that we will see these parallels in fullness as we read The Aspect-Emperor books and beyond. Achamian as Seswatha, Kellhus as Celmomas II, and Esmenet's yet unborn child, Kellhus's first child, as Nau-Cayûti. view post


Mekeritrig posted 03 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

I'm interested to see if anyone will actually reply to posts in this forum anymore.

Due to the holidays, I havn't been able to find time to just sit and write a post, though I did check in every now and again. Unfortunantly, I've come to find, even sitting here early this afternoon, that not one but Harrol has replied to a thread in the TTT forum since myself. Thankfully there looks to be no lack of readers so perhaps it's been the same for others as myself.

Today, if I manage to finish this post without falling asleep on my keyboard, I've decided to reply to this Mekeritrig thread as it's one I've wanted to reply to since my first days on the Three Seas forum.

Again, as it's especially relevant to this thread, I don't think many of the original posters are still actively writing in TTT forum so rather than direct my comments to the posts that originally incited me to write I'm just going to reply to the thread as a whole.

Just as a premise to the following, I think the main problem many of you encounter in your Mekeritrig speculation is mixed chronology. Not to say that Cû'jara Cinmoi's timeline is skewed, as anor suggested, but that many of you don't have a keen understanding of the timeline to begin with.

Cet'ingira:

What astounds me about Nonmen, though predominantly Cet'ingira as he is still prominent in Eärwa even in 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, is that any living had been there the day Cû'jara Cinmoi laid Hanalinqû's corpse before the unholy Ark.

Cet'ingira then has walked Eärwa a very long time.

I'd come to assume, and now have learnt after stumbling upon it's entry in TTT Glossary, that the Breaking of the Gates marks 0 Year-of-the-Tusk. Before the Cûno-Halaroi Wars, the wars between Nonmen and Men, the Cûnoroi had waged a five century long war against the Inchoroi throughout Eärwa and for a fifth of a century throughout the Ark itself.

Cet'ingira himself was one of those Cûnoroi, whether he'd been born days before the Womb-Plague or was already an adult by Cûnoroi standards. We can assume he's been living for at least four and a half millennia warring against uncountable foes beside Cûnoroi, Man, and Consult.

In 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira, Nonmen Quya, Siqu to King Carû-Ongonean of Ancient Umeria, and I assume long Erratic, revealed the glamour surrounding the Ark to the Gnostic sorcerers of the Mangaecca.

I keep kicking myself everytime I read the following quote by anor, or half quote as I've edited it a bit, about Mekeritrig's turning. For the life of me, I cannot find where I read it before. Perhaps, had I tackled this thread before the holidays, and subsequent holiday book purchases I made, I might have had an easier time finding it. However, post-holidays, I have about 9 unread books to read, though two have already been devoured. Metaphorically speaking anyhow. So my mind is not as attune to Mr. Bakker's world as it was.

It's also mentioned that the Inchoroi brothers seduced (their captor?) Mekeritrig who in turn revealed Min-Uroikas to the then grandmaster of the Mangaecca


Sometime between the beginning of the Cûnoroi-Inchoroi Wars and 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira had an encounter with the Inchoroi, Aurang and Aurax. Apparently, he was their captor.

In 825 Year-of-the-Tusk the period of Norsirai-Cûnoroi trade ended and the Nonmen Siqu retreated to their Mansions. In the years between the Expulsion and the outlawing of Shaeönanra and the Mangaecca in 1123, we can assume that Cet'ingira was circulating between the Mansions and Min-Uroikas. Cet'ingira's influence on the Mangaecca and the Consult was likely invaluable, as he was obviously a remarkable Quya and warrior. The same goes for the timeframe between 1123 and Celmomas II's First Ordeal.

In my speculation it is at this time during either the first or Second Great Investiture, though I'm leaning towards the Second, that Mekertrig openly renounces his Mansion and Peoples for the Inchoroi and the Consult.

"I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury."


My speculation is that when Mekeritrig meets Kellhus in the wilderness of Sobel, he is describing to Kellhus his desertion in the above quote. I speculate that during the Second Great Investiture, Mekeritrig was part of Nil'giccas's contingent. I have a vision in my head of Mekeritrig scaling Golgotterath in the lightning and rain, the twin horns of the Ark framing him, and upon reaching the ramparts, insteading of attacking, merely turns to Celmomas II and bows his chin to his shoulder before turning into his new Mansion as it were.

Anyhow, I'm don't mean to seemingly cut this post short or anything but I want to quickly read it over and finally post before I head out for the afternoon. Gotta book it to a buddies house, and then to work as usual. SSDD. Hope anyone reading out there enjoyed. view post


Mekeritrig posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Thanks for the praise, anor, whether deserved or not. I suspect the only reasons my posts seem original are that I'm, perhaps, more enamored with the series than most, as well as Warrior-Poet's point that many, more active posters have ceased speculation and only return for updates on The Aspect-Emperor.

However, as long as someone is here to read and, perhaps, contemplate with me, I will continue writing. Not just a little bit for my own selfish pleasure either, as I love to write.

I decided to write this little post in regards to Harrol's unanswerable question and to reiterate anor's final paragraph.

To begin; Mr. Bakker's actual quote:

Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.


In direct response to Harrol's question, based on Mr. Bakker's words, it seems to me then that the difference between an Erratic and non-Erratic basically comes down to skill, morality of the soul, and sheer willpower.

Though I cannot direct you, at the moment, to my former speculations on Nonmen involvement in future events of the Three Seas, I can reiterate a little of that speculation here.

As I wrote before in my deleted post The Aspect-Emperor, I believe the most plausible, as well as my personal favorite, explantion for Achamian's sorcerous ascendency to Seswatha's parallel in the intervening years until The Aspect-Emperor books, is that he will be the one to intrude on the Nonmen fastness of Ishterebinth.

Again, as I've written before, Achamian has no allies to speak of in the Three Seas. While Achamian is not being hunted by Kellhus's agents, as a wizard he will, post-end of TTT, be desperately avoiding persecution at the hands of the Schools or the Thousand Temples.

Curethan wrote, though in another post:

Seswatha seemed to be highly manipulative and focused on defeating the consult only


At the end of TTT, though not blatantly highly manipulative, Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult. In the last moments of the First Holy War we, as readers, experience Achamian's final moment of true emotion.

Achamian nodded, wiped the last tear he knew he would ever shed. He would be heartless now. A perfect man.


Esmenet, until that final, tearing moment, had been Achamian's ground, world, and life; the largest and last barrier between himself and the Mandate's goal of Consult defeat.

Therefore, his goal bared and not entirely trusting Kellhus's propositions of war against the Consult, where else can Achamian turn but towards refuge in the north? Especially with the added incentive of studying and elaborating with the original practioners of the Gnosis, the Nonmen; a race of peoples, according to Mr. Bakker, labouring fanatically in their crafts for their very minds and lives.

In my opinion, the only place in the intervening years between TTT and the first book of The Aspect-Emperor for Achamian to gain power and allies, would be Ishterebinth. view post


For people ReReading posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtFor people ReReading by Madness, Peralogue

I was just perusing TTT forum as I'm wont to do throughout a day and while nothing so far incites me to write a lengthy post, your post, Ulyaoth, did at least make me pause in my perusal.

Firstly, your writing; very intelligent and articulate. I respect that. However, the reason for my post, is that aside from articulate writing you unfortantly have a misconception as basis for your speculation.

Moënghus did not transpose himself from the Mansion beneath Kyudea to anywhere.

Despite the ambiguity in Mr. Bakker's writing, even in your so-called definitive definitions of salting, I don't believe that anywhere throughout the books set descriptions contradict Moënghus's salting.

Furthermore, aside from the doubt the above alone instills, Moënghus's salted form is described twice by Mr. Bakker post-salting.

"Not again!" Cnaiür howled at the sagging form. He stumbled to his knees, weeping, raving. "How could you leave me?"

His screech pealed through the derelict halls, filled the very earth.

And he laughed, thinking of the final swazond he would cut into his throat. One last thought too many ... See! See!

He cackled with grief.

He knelt over his lover's corpse - for how many heartbeats, he would never know.


Speculation, though fact for basis is sparse, on the scene with Aurang and the child is probably warranted though. I'm a strong believer that Mr. Bakker does not write scenes without, at least hidden, reason. Usually with his writing I've found consistency upon conclusion. view post


Mekeritrig posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Ulyaoth, once again, however articulate and, perhaps, intelligent your writing might be, you need to look at the facts more closely. I think a perusal of TTT Glossary would be largely to your benefit in future speculations.

As you have very much incited me to write, I guess I'll just respond to your post chronologically.

I'll start off with thanks for my benefit of your reading. I've found the quote of Kellhus's inference again. It, however upon reading again, does make me a little sceptical of Kellhus's inferring ability and my own speculation of Mekeritrig as captor of Aurang and Aurax.

I regret again my inability to point you in the direction of my The Aspect-Emperor post. You might have benefitted from it and I probably wouldn't be having to write these words once again.

The Cishaurim, Mandate, Imperial Saik, and Scarlet Spires are hardly the culmination of sorcerous power in the Three Seas. TTT Glossary mentions the Circle of Nibel, which is one of the supposed Major Schools in the Three Seas and an entirely unmentioned School throughout the books. Even despite the facts that this implies more unheard of sorcerous factions, and that the Circle of Nibel and the Mysunsai were entirely undamaged in the First Holy War, aside from Skaleteas, I highly doubt the Mandate or the Scarlet Spires will cease hunting Achamian on Kellhus's say-so.

Throughout TTT we experience through Achamian activities and events surrounding the Sacral Retinue. Despite that there are continual claims throughout TTT that the old ways are dead and that there is this new undeniable vulnerability and honesty in the Warrior-Prophet's presence, as Achamian states it collapses into old habits and bigotry's the moment he leaves.

And there were the politics, of course, though they were largely confined to jnanic posturing of the caste-nobles who continually drifted in and out of the Sacral Retinue. All manoeuvring, no matter what its stripe, would instantly collapse into uniform servility whenever Kellhus appeared, and just as quickly leap back into effect when he was departed.


This implies to myself and, I think, Achamian that Kellhus's new world order is not as stable nor honest as it appears.

The Mandate only join the events of the First Holy War at it's end. They do not come though with the intention of servitude. Nautzera, and through him probably the Quorum, continually tell Achamian that their intentions are to possess Kellhus and that he is to be nothing more than a tool of the Mandate.

Once again, I'll reiterate; the Mandate will most likely be among the foremost of Achamian's pursuers, based on the facts that Kellhus's new total servitude and honesty system is false as well as that the Mandate Quorum still think themselves Kellhus's master.

Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult. Up until the end of TTT Achamian's only other concern in life was Esmenet. Following his renouncing Achamian's only other loyalty was towards Seswatha.

You can write of any other character and they would have personal motives in what they've done and intend to do. Achamian is now the sole character, as was Seswatha, that has no purpose for life other than Consult defeat, as probably Cû'jara Cinmoi intended by the events that have shaped Achamian.

The rest of your rebuttals are almost sheer idiocy.

By refuge in the north, I specifically meant Ishterebinth, and not as you've seem to imply a safe geological zone as the west might be.

Yes, perhaps, and it is likely, there are glamours surrounding Ishterebinth's entrances. However, I do believe if Achamian were inclined he could find the telltale Mark of sorcery surrounding these glamours and that, again if he were inclined, he could reveal to the Nonmen the genesis of events that lead him to seek their aid over other humans. I'm sure even the Nonmen would be apt to listen to a tale involving possible clash with, and possibly even defeat of, their ancient foes once again.

Also, the sole purpose for Achamian's continued education of the Gnosis, is that not only will the Mangaecca have elaborated severely on it themselves, no other sorcery of the Three Seas or elsewhere can compete with the Gnosis.

Finally, I again reiterate my wish that you read or reread TTT Glossary before your continued speculation on The Aspect-Emperor, as the Wathi Doll is the only artifact, that you've named, of witchcraft.

Agonic Collar:

A sorcerous artifact of the Ancient North, reputedly crafted by the Mihtrulic Gnostic School. According to Mandate scholars, the purpose of the Agonic Collar was analogous to that of the Uroborian Circle utilized by the Anagogic Schools of the Three Seas, namely, to inflict excruciating pain on the wearer should he attempt to utter any sorcerous incantation.

Uroborian Circle: A so-called "artifactual Cant" used to prevent the utterance of sorcery and thought to turn on the same aporetic principles that make Chorae possible.

Related to the Aporic and Gnostic schools of sorcery more than to witchcraft, which I believe is Anagogic sorcery anyhow. view post


Mekeritrig posted 17 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Ulyaoth, I find it interesting that aside from your speculation on Moënghus's salting, you've found no better way to spend your time and intelligence than to disprove my theories.

I'll admit that I've done the same but usually to offer alternative speculation of a more intelligent sort. Once again, despite your claims of my ineptitude, I suggest you read my posts more carefully before seeking to correct me, quote by quote.

However, seeing as two of my chief qualms on these forums are being misunderstood and misconceptions of Mr. Bakker's literature, I feel the need to respond in kind. Though I won't quote you.

To start off, I understand quite well from where Kellhus garnered set inference. I also, not being as intelligent as either Mr. Bakker nor the Dûnyain, understand that any inferences of Kellhus's are likely correct.

Kellhus's exact words are as follows:

"You learned how the last survivors of that fell race, Aurang and Aurax, perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig, and how he corrupted Shauriatis, the Grandmastaster of the Mangaecca, in his turn."


As yourself and I have both agreed he likely, if not more than likely, inferred this through Achamian's stories. Before his final dream in TTT, I believe anything Achamian has referenced either from Seswatha's memories or his scholarly knowledge is likely true. Like Iyokus, we know Achamian to be quite the antiquitarian.

My reasons for scepticism, however, lie once again in TTT Glossary.

In the entries the Apocalypse, Shaeönanra, and Mangaecca Cû'jara Cinmoi gives us reason to doubt the accurateness of the second half of Kellhus's statement; which in turn gave me reason to doubt the first.

I'll not quote the excerpts as you've obviously thoroughly read the books, and you claim TTT Glossary, but I will write the jist of fact which is basis for my doubt and speculation.

Basically, in 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, during the Nonmen Tutelage the Nonman Erratic Cet'ingira reveals to the "Gnostic School of Mangaecca" the glamour surrounding Min-Uroikas.

This holds true in both the Mangaecca and Apocalypse excerpts. Then in the Shaeönanra excerpt it states that he was born c. 1086.

Perhaps, as it could very well be fact, Mekeritrig did corrupt Shaeönanra in his turn, as Kellhus inferred. However, I think it more likely that Shaeönanra just proved to be the prodigy his excerpt makes him out to be and rose through the ranks of the Mangaecca and subsequent Consult to become the ranking member he is.

Before moving onto the tired arguement of Schools, I'll thank you once again for my benefit of your reading. I had finally found the name of Proyas's father, amongst Achamian's TTT ponderings, but didn't get around to remedying my former post before it was deleted.

I keep re-reading your words on the Schools and am not surprised to find ignorant reiterations. You need to read my words more carefully.

I am beginning to understand that we are of two very seperate schools of thought about the PoN. You, on one hand, are the very embodiment of Kellhus's subjects; even knowing what he is, as an objective observer of a third person narrative. It seems to me that you think he can do no wrong as he seems to possess everyone eventually.

On the other hand, I myself never quite shook the observations of the Dûnyain from Cnaiür's narration and am definitely of like mind regarding anything Dûnyain. Therefore, until nearly the end of TTT I never trusted anything Kellhus said or did as anything more than tools until it became apparent that he was becoming deluged by emotion. Mind you I didn't dislike him for his amorality; I applauded him for it. He will be quite less exceptional once he's fully engulfed by the madness of emotion.

In that mindset I approach the subject of the Schools once more. Yes, I agree that, perhaps, the Mandate like the majority will succumb to Kellhus in the end. However, I'll reiterate that your arguments for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, even the Imperial Saik, at the end of the First Holy War are flawed.

There seems to be a concensus between Schools that wizards and witches are to be hunted to extermination. This, to me, seems wise given that aside from the Imperial Saik the Schools remain indifferent towards the religious and secular powers of the Three Seas, and defections of members to such institutions could prove disastrous. This was the only reason I included the Mysunsai in hunt speculations as they likely would honor set concensus.

As for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, again at the end of the First Holy War, neither believe Kellhus to be a prophet. In fact, though the Mandate must now treat with Kellhus instead of seizing him, they remain convinced that they will be in control of his actions towards the Consult. The Scarlet Spires on the other hand, though severely weakened, have a Grandmaster who just plain doesn't believe in Kellhus and has a major grudge against Achamian. The above, to me, lend reason to why the Quorum and Scarlet Spires Grandmaster might be inclined to ignore Kellhus's forbearance of anything Achamian.

I disagree as well with your assertions on the Imperial Saik and the Circle of Nibel. The Imperial Saik, aside from losing their Grandmaster and a handful of sorcerers to the Scylvendi and Achamian, have been relatively unharmed as a School throughout the events of the PoN. The Circle of Nibel on the other hand have been completely unharmed throughout the events of the First Holy War and given that they are a Major School of the Three Seas, gives plenty of reason to include them in speculation even if limited in range.

I think you've mistaken the aim of my posts here on the Three Seas forum. Other than quell any misconceptions of fact and speculation, my ultimate goal is to see if, either individually - nigh impossible - or collectively with other posters, the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor can be discerned now. You say your familiar with my former post, so you'll realize I'm just reiterating much of what I've said there.

This is another reason why I didn't respond to your arguments for Achamian not being alone against the Consult. In my former post I articulate that bar Consult move in force - which would include Sranc attacking populated Three Seas - Achamian is solely bent towards Consult defeat.

The only other argument I feel the need to respond to, though I will admit I did misread your post, is the one of Witchcraft.

The negation of the Uroborian Circle by Achamian's Wathi Doll was exceptionally improvised on Achamian's part. It in no way implies, as you seem to believe, that Witchcraft possesses negating properties of sorcery as does, once again, the Aporos, which I might add has been dominated by the Mangaecca and Consult since the beginning of the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars.

After perusing your post and this one once again, I guess I've need to rebut your speculations on Achamian before I finish.

I'll agree that, perhaps, incorporating other sorceries into the Gnosis could be of advantage to Achamian in the future. However, I refute that Witchcraft, an Anagogic sorcery, is the one Achamian should be utilizing. I reiterate again that Ishterebinth is one of the only places I can think of to where Achamian should turn for allies. Again your argument on the Mangaecca and Nonmen Erratic Quya who might've been praticing the Gnosis for millenia remains ignorant. Achamian need not spend millenia himself elaborating and learning when Quya and Siqu of Ishterebinth have done so for him.

As well, since you are familiar with my former post, The Aspect-Emperor, then you should realize that I try to compose my speculation of intelligent reasoning and fact. I'll pose a rhetorical question to you; When has Achamian ever, through words, actions, or thoughts, implied that Zeüm would be a place that he would even think to go for refuge?

I'm going to re-read this again before I post, but I'll leave you and any other readers some food for thought, as part of your argument against Ishterebinth has given me pause.

Though I disagree; I believe Achamian could find Ishterebinth if he were inclined either through research or hints from Seswatha's memories. However, if he were not inclined to learn from Siqu, perhaps he will seek refuge in Cil-Aujas? Somewhere closer to the events and yet definitely refuge. view post


Mekeritrig posted 18 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Last night, prior to anor's post, I had been in the midst of a response to your short post above when I decided that I would wait until you'd posted your actual response. However, Ulyaoth, since you've yet to post - understandably, of course - and since anor has hit upon one of the points I was going to bring up in my unfinished post, I've decided now to post ahead of you and, perhaps, rid your mind of any continuing ignorance.

I agree tenfold with you, Ulyaoth, that it's impossible to speak in absolutes regarding an unreleased piece of writing, especially when the facts that we're left with at the end of TTT are only meant to tantalize. I also agree that the best way for us as readers and speculators to infer the unrevealed future state of the Three Seas is through the removal of implausible theories. However, when a poster such as yourself refuses to disbelieve his own arguments in light of contrary, even more logical, evidence then it makes it hard to do so.

I understand that by rephrasing my question you hoped to discredit my argument. However, all you've accomplished is that now I have to explain myself.

What you, and many other posters before you, need to grasp and incorporate into your speculations is that, to the last, every single one of Cû'jara Cinmoi's human characters are exactly that; human. He's created such an ingenious world, full of so much depth and relevant history, that his characters could do nothing but live. I think it's definitely part of why it's such an entrapping story as Mr. Bakker has basically just taken human life and placed it elsewhere in different circumstances. I know for a fact that the relevant philosophical lining of the PoN is part of what trapped myself. It's inspired me to aspire to writing equally as intriguing and relevant fantasy or science fiction during my lifetime - quite a task.

Throughout the events of the First Holy War we experience many different characters as they work their way through their lives. Each has distinct traits, personalities, habits, and thoughts. They are unique; as we humans are in life.

I cannot count the number of times that through Achamian we've experienced something of Eärwa's past. In fact it's mostly through Achamian, aside from TTT Glossary, that we have any indication of history preceding the First Apocalypse at all; specifically, Nonmen culture.

Now what I meant when I posed the question to you is that not once throughout Achamian's experience do we read of Zeüm; in his words, actions, or thoughts. However, isn't it likely, based on his many words and thoughts, that Achamian have some affinity for Nonmen? Especially ones who, post-disturbance by Achamian's presence and his tale of Three Seas events, would be most adamant in aiding in the destruction of the Consult and Inchoroi. It's even likely that being the ancients they are, Achamian could probably even relate better to the Nonmen than to other humans; aside from the Mandate.

Furthermore, your following points are still ignorant.

As anor has already pointed out not all the Nonmen of Ishterebinth are practicing sorcerers. Despite the transcendentalism of the Nonmen caste system, there are likely even, aside from the Quya, many Ishroi remaining. Again, I'll reiterate your need to read things more carefully. Had you paid heed to one of Mr. Bakker's quotes in my preceeding posts you wouldn't have made this point at all:

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.


Your second, and perhaps even more ignorant point for one who has again obviously thoroughly read the books, is that the North is untraversable.

Kellhus himself, alongside worldborn men, travelled from Ishuäl to the Three Seas escaping Cet'ingira, though likely Mekeritrig let Kellhus go, and at least a hundred Sranc. True, Kellhus could rely on his preternatural reflexes and intelligence where Achamian cannot, if Ishterebinth is even where he were inclined to go. However, I would think Achamian's sorcery more than a match for Kellhus's initial obstacles of travel; again, aside from Cet'ingira.

My second, and definitely more damaging point, is that there is a route across the Istyuli Plains. Every year, as made known by Leweth, a caravan travels from Galeoth to Atrithau through Sakarpus. If set caravan of Galeoth can survive the circuit, hounded by Sranc as you'd say, then I'm sure Achamian, a sorcerer and experienced spy, could manage equally as fine, at least until Atrithau.

Again, this is not what I believe will happen; just that it's plausible if Achamian were inclined. I only offered Ishterebinth as the most logical and strategic refuge yeilding the most to Achamian knowledge and ally-wise. Of course, I also offer it now as a more intelligent and logical alternative to Zeüm or "the west." view post


Mekeritrig posted 23 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

It is after quite the weekend that I return to the board and find your post, Ulyaoth, and your support post of Mr. Dalamar's.

I started writing a reply to your above post friday, Ulyaoth, and, completely contrary to my character, I stopped midsentence and closed the window because I just couldn't continue writing. I'd like to express my complete aggravation at having to respond to a post that, instead of being written, is just a collection of small rebuttals to disagreeable points. Since I refuse to take your posts apart quote by quote in order to disprove your theories I am once again going to try a response without a repeat of friday.

Unfortunately, to begin this post I feel the need to respond to the allegations towards my character.

I think you need to understand a few things about myself. As I've reiterated several times in the past posts on this board, my aim, however impossible it may be, is to try and discern the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor through fact and intelligent reasoning.

Now, once again however impossible that may be, if you know another way to achieve my aim besides disproving implausible theories through the introduction of contrary evidence or by supporting plausible theories by providing evidence then, please, enlighten me. I am not trying to state I am right; merely trying to disprove a theory I in no way indulge due to lack of evidence or intelligent reasoning and offer an alternative. Of course I am trying to prove you wrong. I'm sorry if you take offense to the tone of my writing.

Furthermore, I do not believe that it's logical for a series or book to lead to a happy conclusion. You are discussing a series of books with a man, myself, who was entirely resigned to the misconception that the PoN was the story; until the conclusion of my second full round of reading. It's a major reason why I believe Cû'jara Cinmoi left no loose threads in the PoN itself just many possible futures. I loved the series even then, ignorant of it's future. At the time, I thought it was beautiful that Mr. Bakker could capture a moment of an existence without, per say, a beginning or end as there is none in life.

Though I entirely dislike the use of quotes as something to pick at, I may be forced to as I'll reiterate again the aggravation of having to reply to a person who writes so. I only mention this as I have to, for sake of sheer disbelief, quote you.

The "logic" with which I view the series in its progression is not on the basis of what would be more logical to the reader, or for the story, but what would be logical to the character . . . all of the decisions, story archs, "twists," and modes of progression in the entirety of the Prince of Nothing have completely coincided with established traits of the characters morales, feelings, past, and knowledge, as opposed to what would be more logical to us at that moment.


What posts are you responding to? I believe, quite correctly, that I have done absolutly nothing but support the same. Have I not stressed that in a world as complete and real as Cû'jara Cinmoi's that the characters actions become more their own and less the writer's initial plan and ideas.

I guess this leads into what will begin my actual response to you.

As well, I guess I cannot reiterate enough the aggravation of wanting to respond to this post. I'm sorry that I've angered you to the point that you can't write an entire articulate and intelligent post.

Anyhow, why are you so convinced that Achamian fears the Consult? I mean you've, again obviously, thoroughly read the series. Have you remained completely ignorant of the changes throughout the books? This is why I continuely refer to your arguments as ignorant. It's not that you are personally ignorant; that is to say unlearned. Just that you are continually repeating arguments with basis ignorant of fact. I'd, as well, like to stress at this point that when I say fact I mean precisely that. Something that has either been stated by Cû'jara Cinmoi or that can be found in the books.

I will concede that the Drusas Achamian that we've come to know throughout the PoN was a fearful man. I'll refer to the overwhelming anxiety we experience through Achamian when he's presented with proof auguring the apocalypse at the end of The Darkness That Comes Before. I might add that any person might be prone to that same fearfulness when presented with an apocalypse.

I am in complete awe when it comes to the diligence and meticulous ingenious of Mr. Bakker's writing. As I've said before, the small sliver of Cû'jara Cinmoi's world that he's allowed us to experience is more than enough to become engulfed in. However, even more inspiring to myself, is the fact that Mr. Bakker wrote the PoN series to serve as a revelent and indepth history for his true story; the Second Apocalypse.

To that end, the characters we've experienced throughout the First Holy War have been whittled and hewed by events in order to slowly fill the space Cû'jara Cinmoi has prepared for them. Hense why I am constantly refering to the end of TTT as it's the closest point of reference to the characters future selves.

In light of the above, at the end of TTT I don't believe Achamian fears the Consult as he once did. However, I'm starting to understand that Achamian's attitude towards the Consult is mute point. I believe that our difference of opinion lies once again in your ignorance of fact.

Fact: At the end of TTT, Achamian has renounced everything and everyone important to him except Seswatha.

If you'd like proof and references I can provide, however, as I believe you know them anyways I'll just continue on.

My proposition of Achamian journeying to Ishterebinth depends on the basis that he will utilize his time and energy bent solely towards Consult defeat.

In fact, just to quash your allegation of my speaking in absolutes, I've always maintained that my reasons and theories were based on Achamian's inclination. If he were inclined to go to Ishterebinth.

If Achamian is bent solely towards Consult defeat, which I believe he is in light of no more intelligent reasoning or contrary evidence, what better place, again I reiterate, for allies and power towards that end than Ishterebinth?

As well, you mistook my suggestion of Cil-Aujas. I only presented the idea of Achamian going there, not to learn from Nonmen, but as a place where he could be assured refuge within proximity to the Three Seas if my Ishterebinth speculations indeed prove false; which they very well could.

Interestingly enough, I think it more likely that the Consult will use Cil-Aujas as a base within the Three Seas than Achamian. Doubtful that Kellhus would have learnt of the Mansion's existence.

I know this is, I think, the fourth time I've said this but I cannot stand the way you've written this post. It makes it extremely - though no doubt you care not - aggravating to try and respond in my usual manner of writing.

I'm trying to find all references to Achamian so I can move on to some of your alternative rebuttals, however, it's proving difficult.

I understand that Achamian refers to fear of heresy and subsequent summary execution based on what he writes in his compendium. I also see the reasoning behind your argument against the Schools hunting Achamian in Kellhus's new world order, whether I disagree with it or not. However, I'll reiterate again my belief that the Three Seas is not a safe place for Achamian to be.

Following all Achamian's renunciations isn't it likely, that in years to come, all of Kellhus's subjects will know the stories surrounding Kellhus's ascension to power and perhaps, though I disbelieve the reality of it, prophecy? Furthermore, isn't it likely that despite whatever grand proclaimation Kellhus may make against Achamian's death that some bloodthirsty fanatic, even many bloodthirsty fanatics, knowing the facts of set stories would try and kill Achamian believing that they'd eliminated a blight against their beloved Warrior-Prophet?

The quote from the end scene of TTT goes as follows:

The Men of the Tusk stared at him dumbstruck, their outrage as bright as sparks in their eyes.


I interpreted the above quote and surrounding passage as amazement from Achamian that he isn't torn to pieces there and then.

I don't really know if I've caught all your references to Achamian, however, I feel my argument slowing down here so I'm going to just move on to tidbits of anything as I read 'em. Actually, though I hate to do this, it's the only quick way to respond to the rest of your post so I'm going to resort to quoting you.

Knowing of Nonmen and knowing something of their culture doesn't suddenly develop adoration or favoritism.


Quite true. On the flipside we know Achamian. He is a student of logic and sorcery. He definitely respects opposition towards the Consult. As well, he is a student of history and therefore, unlike the rest of humankind in Eärwa, knows that the Nonmen nations were old and vast long before the Breaking of the Gates. Furthermore, he knows the invaluable aid that Nonmen Siqu and Quya provided Men in the building of the Norsirai's own nations. In specific, the tutelage of the Gnosis. Once again I'll reiterate, I'll bet that Achamian could relate much better to Nonmen than he can to humankind, aside from the Mandate.

The quote you give does in no manner say that some Non-Men aren't sorcerers, it merely says that the techniques that they're attempting aren't solely utilizing sorcery


I wasn't trying to state that the Nonmen aren't sorcerers; likely the majority of them are practicing sorcerers. I was trying to, and did, state that all Nonmen aren't sorcerers. Which elminated any of your speculation on how the Consult would have to fashion another skin-spy anomoly in order to infiltrate Ishterebinth, as you tried stating here:

I'd like to point out that there's a high probability of some Skin-Spy variant in Ishterebinth as alluded to by Aurang in the Warrior-Prophet. A fact that moves me to curiosity . . . How else could Aurang have spies in a place presumably populated only by sorcery practicing Non-Men? The lack of the mark should be able to snuff out most spies in their presence...unless they actually did find a way to reproduce Skin Spies with souls or at least convincingly reproduce the mark of the Onta.


On the same line of thought, the spy in Ishterebinth is likely a Nonmen Erratic occupying a position of, at least, some power. It would be impossible to introduce a skin-spy into Ishterebinth due to the fact that all living Nonmen are likely known to each other. I mean, they are a relatively small population of species who've survived, in a fashion, a couple millennia together. I think a Nonman who just showed up in Ishterebinth one day would raise some highly damaging questions.

Whether he's amoral or not, and whether he lied before or not, I think it stands to reason that Kellhus is authentically a prophet. He did, afterall have a vision about Serwe's death and the events that transpired towards the end 200-300 pages before it actually occurred.


Wrong. As The Warrior-Prophet is all about Kellhus's trial in the domination of Holy War, the novel in which he experiences the most difficulties in dominating his circumstances, as Dûnyain he walks a very thin line; in his own words:

Some destinations couldn't be grasped in advance. Some paths had to be walked to be known. Risked.


The "vision" your speaking of is no vision at all. Kellhus is merely meditating on the overwhelming circumstances presented to him; the corresponding revelation, I guess I have to say I believe, was just the nearly impossible path he sets for himself knowing that the possibility of success outweighed and would subsequently eliminate any possible negatives.

I'll refer to our experience through Cnaiür's eyes near the finale of The Warrior-Prophet. After Kellhus's cryptic words on the ruined heights of Citadel, Cnaiür finds himself understanding the Dûnyain's plan.

Everything, Cnaiür realized had transpired according to the Dûnyain's mad gambit . . . knowing that if he survived... The secret of battle!


The secret of battle being, as we learn at the battle of Anwurat under the Scylvendi's tutelage of war, conviction. As Achamian describes to Nautzera at the beginning of TTT:

After he was freed, even the most embittered of the Orthodox fell to their knees before him . . . He came upon them like a fever after that. Suddenly the Holy War found itself unified as never before . . . And then they marched. Such a sight, Nautzera! As great and terrible as anything in our Dreams. Starved. Sick. They shambled from the gates - dead men moved to war . . . The impossible. They won the field. They couldn't be stopped!


Just reading through the rest of your post here, though there are things I'd like to respond to, there's nothing that incites me enough to continue writing right now. I hope anyone reading enjoyed this post though I'm not entirely happy with it. As I try to aspire to intriguing writing which flows and follows a somewhat linear movement of thought, I can't really condone what I've written here.

As well, Ulyaoth, despite whatever attitude you think I adopt in my writing or towards you, I'd like you to know at least that I enjoy writing opposite someone as engaged as yourself. view post


Ok so I feel like ive read every good author in existence. posted 25 January 2007 in Literature DiscussionOk so I feel like ive read every good author in existence. by Madness, Peralogue

Agreed, Knight's post-apocalypse series is excellent; I've the entire David Valentine set at home.

Also, agreed with paddyenglish and though I've never read Rankin's stuff, Pratchett's excellent.

I'd recommend some of Gemmell's stuff particularly Legend; I wouldn't read too many of his books though as his plotlines quickly start repeating themselves.

Lastly, The Tyrants and Kings trilogy by John Marco is basically the only other fantasy I feel rivals Bakker's especially the second book The Grand Design; Biagio is one of the best villains I've ever had the experience of reading. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 03 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

My thanks to Warrior-Poet for reposting this thread though unfortunately not in it's original state. Some things, however, cannot be helped.

I initially posted this thread with the hope that it would draw engaged speculators who would share in my goal of discerning the state of events in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor. I wrote with the aspiration of providing a solid factual foundation for speculation towards this goal. My ambition remains the same this second time posting with the further aspiration of providing a more in depth and developed base.

To begin, once again, the original quote by Cû'jara Cinmoi that I feel more speculators need to take to heart in their Aspect-Emperor speculations.

All I can say is that AE will put the whole world into play. <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: -->


In the same thread from which I draw this quote Mr. Bakker writes that he intended to design the Thousandfold Thought glossary to be as much that as a teaser for the next instalments of Eärwa. Many of the building blocks in our foundation will then, obviously, be drawn from the glossary with the hope that we can piece together the small, and intentionally vague, facts Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with at the end of The Thousandfold Thought into the larger puzzle that will be The Aspect-Emperor series.

As I intend this to serve as our speculative basis I beg any reader who finds contradiction to what I present as fact or speculation to post. I want there to be consensus in what is written in this thread to aid us in our goal. I truly do believe and hope, however impossible it may seem, that we can discern at least some truths of The Aspect-Emperor before ever being engulfed by Cû'jara Cinmoi's world anew.

The following I present to you as fact and, I believe, intelligent reasoning. A basis for our own probability trance as it were.

The Five Tribes of Men:

The Ketyai: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, dark-skinned. Predominant about the Three Seas.
The Norsirai: Typically blond-haired, blue-eyed, fair-skinned. Predominant along the northern fringes of the Three Seas.
The Satyothi: Typically black-haired, green-eyed, black-skinned. Predominant in the nation of Zeüm and southern extremities of the Three Seas.
The Scylvendi: Typically dark-haired, pale-blue-eyed, and fair-skinned. Predominant in and around the Jiünati Steppe.
The Xiuhianni: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, olive-skinned. The only tribe of Men that remained in Eänna beyond the Great Kayarsus.

Throughout the events of the First Holy War we mainly encounter the Ketyai, Norsirai, and Scylvendi through the eyes of Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters. The Satyothi make brief appearances throughout the novels but for the most part we know little of Zeüm or it's inhabitants. Interestingly enough, according to the Thousandfold Thought glossary, Zeüm is the source of the finest steel in the Three Seas.

The Xiuhianni on the other hand we know absolutely nothing about apart from what we can infer based on some key excerpts from the Thousandfold Thought glossary.

According to the excerpts Breaking of the Gates, The Chronicle of the Tusk, and Xiuhianni we know that The Chronicle of the Tusk ends with the determination of four tribes of Men to invade Eärwa. We also know that the Xiuhianni, for their own reasons, refused to follow the other four tribes through the Gates.

However, whether the Xiuhianni have since moved across the Kayarsus into Eärwa is open to debate. In my perusal of The Thousandfold Thought glossary yesterday I stumbled upon the entry Jekhia. It reads as follows:

Jekhia: A tributary nation of High Ainon, famed as the mysterious source of chanv, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus. The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics.

Regardless, based on the above quote by Mr. Bakker and by the fact that they are in the glossary at all, we know that the Xiuhianni have a role to play in future events whether we can speculate on them or not.

Houses, Nations, and Kings:

Aethelarius VI - King of Atrithau and last of the line of Morghund
Nrezza Barisullas - King of Cironj
Nersei Eukernas II - King of Conriya
Musammu Chinjosa - King-Regent of High Ainon
Coithus Eryeat - King of Galeoth
Hringa Rauschang - King of Thunyerus

House Biaxi - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Trimas - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Coithus - Ruling dynasty of Galeoth
House Daskas - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Gaumum - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Hoga - Ruling dynasty of Agansanor
House Ikurei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Kiskei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Ligesseras - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Morghund - Ruling dynasty of Atrithau
House Nersei - Ruling dynasty of Conriya
House Thallei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Surmante - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Zerxei - One of the Houses of the Congregate

Zeüm - A mysterious and powerful Satyothi nation beyond Nilnamesh
Nilnamesh - A Ketyai nation on the extreme southwest edge of the Three Seas
Cingulat - A Ketyai nation on the north western coast of Kutnarmu, south of Nilnamesh

Bar a couple names that have either slipped from my memory - I've been happily laden reading my christmas books lately and it's been awhile since I've immersed myself in the Prince of Nothing - or have never been mentioned, the above are the Kings and nations that now, unknowingly, fall under Aspect-Emperor Anasûrimbor Kellhus's domain.

In the past I have had many posters respond who've been quite adamant about the fact that they believe that upon opening the first book of The Aspect-Emperor we will find all the nations of the Three Seas squarely under Anasûrimbor Kellhus's rule. This is not an implausible suggestion; it's even a rather likely one.

As immense and amazing as Cû'jara Cinmoi's world is throughout the Prince of Nothing what many posters fail to realize, or perhaps just disregard all together, is that Kellhus has only been dealing with the chosen military leaders from their respective nations. Though these individuals stand high in their nation's respective rankings these are not the rulers of the Three Seas that unwittingly find themselves below Kellhus in hierarchy following Maithanet's proclamation at the end of The Thousandfold Thought.

Again, I know that upon opening the pages of The Aspect-Emperor these matters will probably have been long resolved in the intervening events between The Thousandfold Thought and The Aspect-Emperor. However, the only possible way to discern the state of the initial pages of The Aspect-Emperor is to speculate on those intervening events. As I've written before, probably in this same deleted thread, as far as I've concerned at the end of The Thousandfold Thought the only realm Kellhus has actual control over is Kian and what was the Nansur Empire. My main question for speculation is how will Kellhus deal with the individual rulers of the Three Seas. I foresee problems for him particularly with the Kings of Cironj, Galeoth, and Thunyerus.

Demanding further speculation are the Nations of Zeüm, Nilnamesh, and Cingulat. These nations have been almost entirely omitted from the events of the First Holy War aside from brief references. If Kellhus's goal is truly bent towards the end of Consult defeat he will definitely need the might and collaboration of all Three Seas factions especially ulterior ones.

The Schools, wizards and witches:

The School of Mandate - Gnostic School
The School of Mangaecca - Gnostic School
The Imperial Saik - Anagogic School, indentured to the Nansur Emperor
The Scarlet Spires - Anagogic and Daimotic School, de facto rulers of High Ainon
The Circle of Nibel - Sorcery unknown though I assume Anagogic or at least a variation of
The Mysunsai - Anagogic School, originally comprised of three minor Schools: the Mikka Council from Cironji, the Oaranat from Nilnamesh, and the Nilitar Compact from Ce Tydonn
Drusas Achamian - Gnostic Wizard and adherent of Seswatha

Besides the Wizard Achamian the above are the &quot;Major Schools&quot; of the Three Seas.

Now I've read many arguments regarding the Schools and sorcerous factions. Many state that Kellhus will make a so-called &quot;super School&quot; of Gnostic sorcerers or that he will dissolve the many Schools and make the Mandate individual beyond control of the Gnosis. I've found intelligent reasoning behind none of these arguments.

The Schools of the Three Seas definitely must be speculated upon in order to discern anything of The Aspect-Emperor. As the sorcerous factions stand to be one of the most influential factors in future events, to not ponder upon their actions would be irresponsible of us as speculators.

Though the Quorum of Mandate appear in the ending scene of The Thousandfold Thought at Kellhus's side we must remember that at this time they intend to use Kellhus as a tool. It can be argued that we know nothing of the initial meeting between Kellhus and the Quorum, however, we do know that they've remained sceptical of his prophetic status and believe wholly that they will control his actions pertaining to the Consult and not vice versa.

The Scarlet Spires and the Imperial Saik are the only other two Schools that we experience throughout the First Holy War's events aside from, briefly, the Mysunsai.

By the end of The Thousandfold Thought the Scarlet Spires have been weakened as a School. I believe they still have an intelligent grandmaster at their head albeit a slightly demented one. Specifically due to Iyokus's lack of belief in Kellhus and his Daimotic prowess leads me to believe the Scarlet Spires still have a role to play.

As for the Imperial Saik, they're in line for a new grandmaster. As to whom I couldn't say, however, I think we are assured that the Saik land squarely in Kellhus's pocket. As we read in one of Conphas's narratives in The Thousandfold Thought:

The Imperial Saik . . . revered their traditions. They took deep pride in the fact that they alone honoured the old Compactorium, the ancient indenture that had bound all the Schools to Cenei and her Aspect-Emperors in Near Antiquity.


Ironically, the above quote could prove the undoing of any sorcerous speculations, mine or otherwise. Perhaps Kellhus will seek to revive certain ancient indentures.

Also, the witches of the three Seas. I'd yet to consider the witches of the Three Seas in my speculations until reviewing the inept arguments of one of my opposition and a few quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi.

As for witchcraft, this issue does come up later. The most I'll say is that it's an informal 'folkloric' form of the Anagogis


The only question out of these that doesn't find itself pinned to a important part of the future story has to do with women and sorcery (and even then!). Yes, as many women are born to the 'Few' as men, but due to oppression, they have no formal tradition as such: they're typically burned as witches. Neither the Schools nor the mundane powers tolerate sorcery outside the aegis of the Schools, so wizards suffer much the same fate.

I think I should cut it short there, since it becomes quite significant in AE.


We learn in The Warrior-Prophet that Achamian has had a run-in with a Sansori witch. Furthermore, though never explicitly stated, I believe Achamian kills the witch and steals a few of her belongings, obviously, Wathi Doll inclusive.

It is likely that any witches of the Three Seas stay clear of the central nations due to their persecution at the hands of both the religious and sorcerous factions. There is even likely a handful of wizards scattered around the extremities of the Three Seas.

From the above two quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi as well as another that I've omitted due to not being able to find it, I come to the conclusion that Drusas Achamian might have a few more run-ins with the female Few of the Three Seas. As my opposition, Ulyaoth, has suggested in another debate - and I'm now inclined to agree due to Mr. Bakker's quotes - we may find Drusas Achamian seated by an entirely different fire throughout The Aspect-Emperor. Again as Ulyaoth suggested, Achamian could find a use incorporating the forkloric Anagogis into his increasing Gnostic prowess.

Lastly, and most importantly, - as I've already started a bit above - in sorcerous speculations: Drusas Achamian. Probably my favourite character of the Prince of Nothing aside from Kellhus. I've never connected so much to a character as Achamian aside Cnaiür; specifically his madness.

Now I won't reiterate my whole argument surrounding Achamian spending, at least some of, the intervening years between novels in Ishterebinth. If you'd like to read more you can do so [url=http&#58;//forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?t=1014&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=30:8pasmkvt]here[/url:8pasmkvt] where myself and Ulyaoth were in the process of hashing it out quite thoroughly.

To sum it up, in light of no contrary evidence or more intelligent reasoning, I believe that Achamian may journey to Ishterebinth in order to sue for Nonmen support. I believe there is no better place for him to gain allies or power towards the end of Consult defeat. The teachings of the Gnosis that Nonmen Siqu and Quya could impart to Achamian would prove invaluable in his quest. Likewise, I'm sure that Achamian's tales of Consult skin-spies throughout the Three Seas will shock the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas into looking inwards towards their own House.

The Dûnyain:

Pragma Jeükal - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Pragma Meigon - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Pragma Uän - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Anasûrimbor Moënghus - Exiled brethren of the Dûnyain
Anasûrimbor Kellhus

Though the Dûnyain of Ishuäl only appear briefly in the Prince of Nothing series in the prologue of The Darkness That Comes Before, I'm entirely convinced that Mr. Bakker is not yet finished with this devious monastic sect.

I've included the Anasûrimbors Moënghus and Kellhus in this list because they are the only two Dûnyain to have left Ishuäl in 2000 years. Whether or not they can be considered Dûnyain, or even alive in Moënghus's case, at the end of The Thousandfold Thought is open to debate, however, their actions throughout all we have read and experienced stand as an indication of the dormant power lying in the Demua mountains.

We know that the Dûnyain Moënghus left Ishuäl following a raid by Sranc. Moënghus was sent out into the world to see if the Dûnyain's seclusion was threatened and assured that it was not, Moënghus returned only to be exiled; compromised by the world he had only briefly experienced.

After thirty years in Eärwa surrounded by worldborn men, even weakened in ability by his Cishaurim blinding, Moënghus still had none among them he could call his brethren. After realizing the Thousandfold Thought during his long hours in the probability trance in the Mansion beneath Kyudea, and after his interrogations of the skin-spies, he realizes that only a whole Dûnyain could overcome the enormous circumstances presented by the Consult and the apocalypse.

Now at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, again, I'm entirely convinced that Cû'jara Cinmoi has plans for the Dûnyain. As I've iterated before, once again I think in this very deleted post, I do not think that Kellhus is the most able or most intelligent Dûnyain from among them.

However, I think the most we can speculate upon due to the Dûnyain's elusive nature is how they will join the events of the Three Seas.

I'm, obviously, open to suggestions regarding anything I've written or will write. In this instance I feel there are only two options:

The Dûnyain Anasûrimbor Kellhus feels the Dûnyain are a threat towards existence in that they believe what is compliant has to be isolated from what is unruly and intractable; the World from the Outside. In the Dûnyain the Consult have possible strong allies depending on who breaches their isolation.

I haven't thought of anything that suggests to me that Kellhus will try and reach the Dûnyain. It seems to me he believes them contently isolated. On the other hand, I can see the Consult using Cnaiür to find them.

Again what is assured is that the Dûnyain will appear in the Three Seas in more force in the future novels.

Nonmen:

Injor-Niyas - The last remaining Nonmen nation
Ishterebinth - The last of the Nonmen Mansions, also known as Ishoriöl
Nin-Ciljiras - The last surviving Nonmen King
Nil'giccas - The Nonmen King of Ishterebinth
Cil-Aujas - Lost Nonmen Mansion

The above are all that remains of the ancient Cûnoroi nations of old. Just to reiterate here as to not confuse anyone, Nin-Ciljiras is King in Ishterebinth. I've put Nil'giccas in as a curiosity.

Nil'giccas was King of Ishterebinth during the First Apocalypse. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II and Seswatha, Grandmaster of the Sohonc, treated with Nil'giccas and the Nonmen after which the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas joined the coalition of the First Ordeal.

Between the First Apocalypse and the end of The Thousandfold Thought something happens in Ishterebinth that displaces Nil'giccas as King. However, I can find nowhere stating that the former King dies. Even his glossary entry is implicative as Nil'giccas's states (? - ) and Cû'jara Cinmoi's states (? - ?) as we know he died.

Aside from that, the Cûnoroi of Eärwa must be speculated upon, I guess with the same import of everything else in this post. As I iterated, the Cûnoroi were the first foes of the Inchoroi and you could say their war has lasted more then 4 millennia.

I, again, won't reiterate my speculations on Achamian breaching their mountain fastness. This I believe is one of the most logical ways for Mr. Bakker to bring the Nonmen back into the heart of events.

As well, as it's in the same thread, I won't repeat my thoughts on Cil-Aujas.

However, while I've been writing and in past speculations I've come to a different theory. While I don't give much credit to it, as I believe Cet'ingira is firmly Erratic and on the Consult's side, it has always struck me kind of odd that Mekeritrig was wandering Sobel with only a handful of Sranc. What if Mekeritrig, at first under the guise of Consult instruction, returns to Ishterebinth and rejoins the Cûnoroi against the Inchoroi?

The Consult:

Cara-Sincurimoi - The No-God
Aurang - Inchoroi Prince and Horde-General to the No-God
Aurax - Inchoroi Prince
Cet'ingira, also known as Mekeritrig - Nonmen Erratic
Shaeönanra, also known as Shauriatas - Grandvizier of the Mangaecca

Just wanted to say, before I begin writing of the Consult, that I apologize for any variation of post quality. This post has taken me awhile to write and parts I don't believe are up to my standard of writing. However, I hope it hasn't been too boring to read.

In The Thousandfold Thought glossary under the entry No-God Cû'jara Cinmoi has written &quot;The entity summoned by the Consult.&quot; This stands with my speculations of the No-God as I believe him to be an entity rather than a force of nature.

Despite that I also believe that the best explanation of the No-God's nature lies [url=http&#58;//forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?t=1548&amp;start=15:8pasmkvt]here[/url:8pasmkvt] under Guest's entry. It definitely ties into other snippets of the No-God's nature that Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with.

Furthermore, I believe Cara-Sincurimoi is closely tied to the Aporos. In The Warrior-Prophet in one of Achamian's dreams, Seswatha describes the Carapace as &quot;indented with choric script.&quot; As well, the Carapace itself is a nimil sarcophagus. These things lead me to believe that the Inchoroi needed more help from the Nonmen Aporic practicitioners than people realize.

As for Aurang and Aurax, the surviving Inchoroi:

Throughout the novels we only experience Aurang of the Inchoroi. I do have a sneaking suspicion that the Inchoroi we encounter with Aëngelas and the Werigda is Aurax, but that is mute point.

We know that Aurang's task throughout the First Holy War is the direction of the various skin-spies who've infiltrated the various factions. We also know that the Consult's stake in the war was the destruction of the Cishaurim thinking that it was their sorcery that allowed them to discover the skin-spies.

However, soon that goal, though accomplished, becomes tainted by the unanswered question: Who are the Dûnyain? This is what Aurang spends most of The Thousandfold Thought trying to figure out.

For me, my mainly unanswered question of the Consult throughout the Prince of Nothing is this: Why did the Consult kill Ikurei Xerius III?

As for Aurax, the only real basis for speculation I can lay down is that in The Thousandfold Thought glossary it states that he was the one who initially teaches the remnants of the Tekne to the Mangaecca.

Cet'ingira remains an ambiguity. What was he doing in Sobel with only a handful of Sranc while Aurax, or Aurang, travels Gâl with a company of Sranc and Nonmen Erratics? Was he truly only &quot;searching for trauma&quot; as Cû'jara states Nonmen are prone to do or was there deeper reason?

Finally, Shauriatas: it's apparent that Shauriatas came to some success in his study of soul-trapping sorceries. It's likely that by the end of The Thousandfold Thought he is a talented Aporic sorcerer as well as a Gnostic one. It's also likely that himself, Mekeritrig, and any original Nonmen Aporic practitioners among the Consult are very responsible for the No-God and his Carapace.

However, until the return of the No-God to Eärwa it's likely that Shauriatas, Mekeritrig, and Aurax will not have more active roles in Three Seas events. They are obviously quite busy experimenting with the Tekne.

Once again, I apologize for what I feel is an obvious decline in articulation and overall technique in my writing towards the end of this post. Nearing the end of this, I've just wanted to see it posted rather than continually having to find time to write. I hope, again, that it was at least somewhat enjoyable.

To finish, I want to reiterate once again my goal in writing this post. I hope that between any speculators among us here on the three-seas forum can discern at least some truths before ever immersing ourselves in Cû'jara Cinmoi's world again. view post


The Inchoroi and the Tusk posted 05 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Inchoroi and the Tusk by Madness, Peralogue

Throughout the past week I've been doing research through the Prince of Nothing series, The Thousandfold Thought glossary, and here on the three-seas forums for my rewritten Aspect-Emperor post and a story I've been slowly working on about a Mandate Schoolman c. 3800 Year-of-the-Tusk.

In my perusal of the forums I came across a couple posts which made me curious and so I opted to write this post; perhaps some members can provide me with further evidence then what I can infer myself.

In these posts, many more than one and not all referenced in the same thread, it was asserted that the Inchoroi may be responsible for the scriptures inscribed on the Tusk.

My question then is this:

Is there some blatant evidence of this that I am missing, aside from the allusions of the &quot;God's&quot; view of Nonmen and sorcery, both of which the Inchoroi would have loathed during the time the Tusk was written? view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 07 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

They most definitely do have parts to play, U-Boat. As readers of the novels, we know that Mr. Bakker does not write without motive.

Since we do not know the personalities that these characters, Moënghus and Esmenet's and Kellhus's yet unnamed child, will develope in their first 20 years of life we cannot actively speculate on what roles they may play in the twilight before the Second Apocalypse. However, there are things we can infer in order to see a sliver of their future selves.

Firstly, Serwë's child Moënghus. I believe little Moënghus is certainly going to have the more interesting upbringing as well as a contrasting character to that of his unborn sibling. Though Moënghus will be raised by Kellhus and Esmenet as Serwë and Kellhus's child, there is no doubt in my mind concerning who Moënghus's father really is. Despite the ambiguity of Cû'jara Cinmoi's writing I do not doubt that Cnaiür is the father and that Serwë was completely delusional in regards to Kellhus's fathering.

This itself provides some interesting insights to whom Moënghus will become. At the time we, the readers, encounter Cnaiür urs Skiötha of the Scylvendi he has been slowly going insane for thirty years due to his own encounter with the Dûnyain Moënghus. In the two year events of the First Holy War following his second Dûnyain encounter with Kellhus, we witness Cnaiür go very quickly insane. I myself can attest to the hereditary attributes of madness.

Now while Mr. Bakker contests inherent traits of history and custom throughout the novels, I wouldn't doubt if Moënghus does inherit personality traits of both Cnaiür and Serwë. Perhaps Cnaiür's abnormal Scylvendi intelligence or Serwë's vanity. Again, just minute speculations; food for thought.

As well, we have to take into account that the only other man aside from Kellhus who knows Moënghus's true heritage is Cnaiür himself; a living relative even. The Consult may eventually use Cnaiür to get to Kellhus through Moënghus or Cnaiür, the mad aspect he is, may just feel the need to approach Moënghus as a father.

Concerning the younger Moënghus, I believe his eventual actions and personality will be of a darkly sort in Kellhus's new world.

However, as I said, in contrast to the mystery regarding Moënghus's future we have already been provided a glimspe into his sibling's eventuality; Nau-Cayûti.

Most of us have either surmised or read Mr. Bakker's parallels between Kellhus and Celmomas II, Achamian and Seswatha, and Esmenet's unborn child and Nau-Cayûti. If not, I'm a strong believer that these parallels will become more focused in The Aspect-Emperor novels. In this light we have, at least a little, understanding of the unborn child's future.

Whereas most readers are assured that Kellhus is the father of Esmenet's child, I am not. I believe Esmenet and Achamian's reunion on the hilltop over Shimeh is not coincidence, nor the fact that Achamian only notices her childbearing bulge following his return to Shimeh at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. While it is likely that Kellhus is the father, I wholly believe Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote the above scenes with the intent of instilling doubt and providing more attune parallels to the First Apocalypse.

I think it likely that upon Kellhus and Achamian's reunion, Achamian and the unborn child may become fast friends. Perhaps Achamian will return from his sabbatical to Ishterebinth bearing news of doom and at his knees beneath the Warrior-Prophet &quot;holy&quot; Aspect-Emperor throne Kellhus will ask Achamian to teach his son.

Regardless, overall as children reared by Kellhus both Moënghus and his unborn sibling will prove to be the exceptional and heroic individuals we expect them to be and that their generation will need in the hours before the Second Apocalypse. view post


No-God's questions posted 08 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Madness, Peralogue

I've always maitained that the Thousandfold Thought was in essence a deeper layer to the probability trance. There are two indicators to me as to it's true nature though they both imply different things.

Firstly, the excerpt from The Thousandfold Thought that coincides with my own belief concerning it's nature:

Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought


My assertions of the Thousandfold Thought follow much the same process.

I believe that the Dûnyain lack the proper variables in isolation to achieve their goal of an Unconditioned soul. The sole two of their number to have left Ishüal apprehend so much more reality than the worldborn no matter what circumstance they encounter. Likewise, the sole two Dûnyain to have left Ishüal apprehend the Thousandfold Thought; Moënghus through years and years of Dûnyain meditation, the probability trance, and Kellhus through the conditioned events his father Moënghus sets before him.

To me the Thousandfold Thought is like fate mapped though through logic and reasoning of circumstances; hense Kellhus knows what Moënghus will do before Moënghus himself infers it.

The other possibility, which is likely either part of the above or a more likely contradiction, is that the Thousandfold Thought can shape reality through belief. As Soul has maintained above and elsewhere: what a thousand thousand believe becomes so. This is evident through many excerpts in The Thousandfold Thought glossary, Moënghus's explaination of viramsata, and Kellhus's own grasping of the Thousandfold Thought precisely when a thousand thousand finally believe he truly is a prophet.

Only had a couple minutes before I started cooking some dinner and popped on here to peruse; this caught my attention and I thought I'd make a quick post. The above are just a few thoughts. view post


No-God's questions posted 09 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Madness, Peralogue

Hmm... chicken fingers, I think. I'm not much of a cook and it t'was a couple nights ago now. Good question by the way, Alpha. Gave me a laugh when I read it. view post


Halos about Kellhus' hands? posted 10 February 2007 in Author Q &amp; AHalos about Kellhus' hands? by Madness, Peralogue

Edit: I read this again and I think I should probably put this here.

*Spoilers below*

I'm not sure I agree with you, XGen.

The whole argument of Kellhus's haloed hands is basically just the overall argument of whether Kellhus is really a prophet or not; which is just something I don't believe.

While I don't wholly agree with Harrol's writing that Kellhus is becoming deluded, we do know that Kellhus believes in the haloes, reality or otherwise.

Kellhus looked to the haloes about his hands. &quot;The crimes you've committed, Father ... the sins ... When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi.


The above quote, for me, really accentuates the fact that Kellhus not only believes in the haloes but that he believes in the scriptures inscribed on the Tusk or religion and Inrithism as a whole. This is actually something extremely scary especially if the Inchoroi did actually have a hand in writing the Tusk - which you can speculate on [url=http&#58;//forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?t=2139:g2br8dcn]here[/url:g2br8dcn].

However, since I do not believe in the Eärwaen religions - I rather think that the Nonmen commentary on religion especially regarding agencies is likely a more correct explaination - I have another theory on Kellhus's delusion.

I think that Moënghus, who remained Dûnyain despite his expulsion by the Pragma, actually nails it pretty well on the head; that the trial of the world has broken Kellhus.

As we've all read the trilogy, we know that no assertion set down by any faction of Eärwa is absolute as well that all are relative. In this light, I believe wholly that the trial of the world did &quot;break&quot; Kellhus from a Dûnyain point of view, which I maintain Moënghus offers us.

Rather my own assertion reads as follows:

I think that Kellhus leaves the isolation of Ishüal as Dûnyain. He travels south, always south, towards Shimeh and as he becomes more and more immersed in his act as prophet he eventually becomes deluged by emotion.

At the end of The Thousandfold Thought I believe Kellhus truly does love Esmenet. I also believe that he is &quot;more&quot; as he states but not in the way he thinks. An emotional man with Dûnyain training will be &quot;more&quot; than a Dûnyain in an extremely exciting way; which I think we'll experience in The Aspect-Emperor novels. It's not as if we'll lose the cold calculating scrutiny of the Dûnyain either as Ishüal is yet to be unleashed and Cû'jara Cinmoi has hinted at a female Dûnyain walking Eärwa.

I guess just to finish off - I want to have a shower and coffee before the weekend shift - the following are the two most damaging points to Kellhus as an actual Inrithi prophet:

- As Harrol states above Serwë sees the haloes around the skin-spy's hands. This leads me to believe they are a product of delusion and not an actuality.

- I'll refer to Xinemus: Kellhus cannot heal. Perhaps if Kellhus's inferences of sorcery prove correct we may actually see a sorcerer who can create rather than solely destroy but as an Inrithi prophet whom can perform unexplainable miracles, Kellhus fails.

My final words before I go, and I apologize because they are somewhat off topic, a little food for thought.

Perhaps Kellhus already has some biological children; among the Dûnyain offspring of Ishüal. view post


Halos about Kellhus' hands? posted 12 February 2007 in Author Q &amp; AHalos about Kellhus' hands? by Madness, Peralogue

I'm glad Warrior-Poet corrected you, Soul, though I've no idea how you confused the Consult for the Mandate.

As for the timeline, I'll just quickly give you the background of my comment as I'm only on break for 15 minutes.

I meant what I wrote to mean exactly that; solely the Inchoroi, or perhaps the Nonmen Aporic sorcerers could be responsible for the Tusk's inscriptions, if at all.

The worship of the Tusk and the chronicles of it take place just before the Breaking of the Gates. The Chronicle of the Tusk ends with the determination of four of The Five Tribes of Men to the east of the Kayarus in Eänna to enter Eärwa.

To translate that to Eärwaen history, the Nonmen had just recently - relative to Nonmen - subdued the remaining Inchoroi and their servants in the depths of Min-Uroikas.

Again, this speculation of Inchoroi writing the Tusk was asserted by posters other than myself. Though I can see vague evidence of it, as I assert in the post linked in my above post, I find nothing conclusive. The main evidence aside from the Tusk's opinion of Nonmen and sorcery, both of which the Inchoroi would have loathed at the time of the Tusk's inscription, is that the four invading tribes of Men used Chorae in their wars against the Nonmen indicating that the Inchoroi and Men had encountered eachother prior to the Breaking of the Gates. view post


The Sagas as Foreshadowing? posted 07 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by Madness, Peralogue

I deeply regret my inactivity on the three-seas forums as of late. Though I've not posted in too long a time, and unfortantly must continue to do so for about another week, I have been stopping in everyday as usual just to read posts here and there. It's exciting to see activity here in the Thousandfold Thought forum, it being more frequent than usual.

Though there is much I'd like to support and rebut in the recent threads, I do not having the time at the moment. Not currently having the internet at home and only sparse breaks here at work, it's been difficult to keep up with my writing and posting.

In fact, the only reason I do post now is to rebut something anor has written and that most of you writers currently posting seem to accept as fact; something I cannot just let stand.

By the end of The Thousandfold Thought Achamian has renounced Kellhus, Esmenet, and his School. Achamian has not, ever, renounced Seswatha. Somewhere in the earlier chapters of The Thousandfold Thought Achamian refers to the late Mandate founder as his brother.

Anyhow, gotta get back to work. I hope to be back writing again soon here on the three-seas, as I've said, both to support peoples currently posting and to incite the rest of you. view post


The Sagas as Foreshadowing? posted 08 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by Madness, Peralogue

Nah worries, anor. Except for minor points, which we drastically differ on, I've no intention of rending your arguments upon my return. Some others, however, won't be so lucky.

Since I have a couple moments once again today before I return to work, and since I've taken a break from apartment hunting, I thought I'd just quickly respond to your postscript.

I don't think Cu'jara Cinmoi intended to portray Seswatha as a malicious entity when writing of Achamian's internment by the Scarlet Spires. I believe he wrote the passages in order to show how exactly the Mandate has safeguarded the Gnosis for two millennia. When one dreams, nigh experiences, nightly acts thousandfold more horrendous than those committed by the Scarlet Spires and knows that even then the Gnosis was not surrendered, how can a Mandati of the current era relinquish their sorcery? As we learn through Achamian's narrative, the Scarlet Spires are mere understudies to the Consult.

As to your question, I do believe that Achamian renounces his School and the Quorum but not it's founder. Once again, as Cu'jara Cinmoi makes quite clear in The Darkness That Comes Before, the Quorums following Seswatha have twisted and skewed the Mandate's goal. view post


The Sagas as Foreshadowing? posted 14 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by Madness, Peralogue

It's been too long since I've had opportunity to sit at my desk in the comfort of my home and post alongside the rest of you Three Seas fanatics. Aside from the two posts above, I've posted almost nothing in about three weeks time. My first instinct then, as I love to write and love debating the issues within Cû'jara Cinmoi's world, is to find all the posts that I've read over the past weeks that incited me and respond. However, my ambition is reined by the fact I've been feeling sick and my doctor's informed me I may have strep throat; therefore, my mind is feeling somewhat mushy and inconsistent.

Regardless, I woke this afternoon, as I've been lazing around with my girlfriend's cat, Ferris, for much of the day, and decided that I wanted to attempt responding to this thread, at the very least. Whether or not these writings will find themselves posted is yet to be seen but I am going to attempt it; I'd found my mind drifting to Holsety's words on The Sagas and the First Apocalypse following waking and moving to my couch.

I guess I've no eloquent way of beginning here so I shall dive right in.

Holsety, I agree with you thousandfold that the glimpse into The Sagas that Cû'jara Cinmoi has allowed us to experience will prove a foreshadowing of what is to come for the characters we've come to know throughout the Prince of Nothing story. I admit and agree that there are comparisons to be drawn between the characters you've mentioned. However, I like neither the way you've presented these comparisons nor your overall argument.

As I said I believe The Sagas will prove a foreshadowing, as you've decided to present proof of. More so, I believe the dreams of Mandati provide closer points for comparison. Basically, as I've written elsewhere, I believe that Achamian will prove to be Seswatha, Kellhus - Celmomas II, and Esmenet's unborn child - Nau-Cayûti.

The main reason that I disagree with your arguments surrounding The Sagas as foreshadowing is that I believe you are missing entirely one side with which to compare. Again, as I've written elsewhere, the story Cû'jara Cinmoi has set out to tell will truly begin only when we've opened those crisp new pages of the first book of The Aspect-Emperor and immersed ourselves into Eärwa anew. While The Prince of Nothing was more indepth and harrowing than any fantasy I've had the pleasure of experiencing we know that Mr. Bakker wrote only to provide us, the readers, with a bottomless and realistic history with which we can enjoy a more full experience of the Second Apocalypse. Only then will we experience and understand the comparisions as Cû'jara Cinmoi intended.

That said the only way I can now provide validity to any claim of comparision specifically my own is to explain myself.

While I agree with anor that Seswatha is not specifically linked to Achamian over any other Mandate Schoolman, I do believe that by complete randomness, by being at the place at the time, so to speak, and by just being Achamian, he will prove to be the Mandati who assumes Seswatha's position throughout the Second Apocalypse.

I cannot stress enough the essence of humanity I feel Mr. Bakker conveys within his novels. All his characters, aside from the obvious nonhuman ones, no matter how extreme their characteristics, are just human in another time and place.

I, unlike what seems to be the majority of posters, don't believe that Seswatha was a decisive manipulator or ultimately despised in his time. I picture a man not too unlike Achamian, an emotional man, raised as a suthenti until his own journey to join a School. He was also intelligent as the stories surrounding his life attest. Likely, regardless of the truth surrounding Nau-Cayûti's parentage, Seswatha loved as fiercely as any human in our own history as his historical story, no matter how biased, would contain some truth concerning Sharal's and his relationship.

Unfortantly, as Achamian is just the man at the time at the place, it was Seswatha whom Nil'giccas delivered his warning to. I, unlike anor, don't believe Seswatha used Nau-Cayûti maliciously; Seswatha fought for the very lives and loves of a world, peoples unborn, so they might experience a life without fear. As we don't have a firsthand account of the events following Seswatha and Nau-Cayûti's escape from Golgotterath, as we do of their journey in, we cannot assume that Seswatha failed to protect his student. The pain, emotional and physical, that Seswatha would have experienced throughout the entirety of the Apocalypse is beyond imagination; he sacrificed more than any, having to know his name may become hated due to his actions.

As for Kellhus and Celmomas II, and Esmenet's unborn child and Nau-Cayûti, there is little real comparision that we can write until having read The Aspect-Emperor books. Even the comparisions I draw are in relation to Achamian and their future selves.

In the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor, Kellhus will be fifty-five years old himself. As well, though I'm one of the few who do believe this, I believe at the end of The Thousandfold Thought Kellhus has become deluged with emotion, something I believe will, sadly, lead to less cool calculating manipulation on his part. After twenty more years of becoming accustomed to emotion, I believe we will experience a very different Kellhus, though someone still exceptional due to his Dûnyain heritage. I'll not, again, reiterate my arguments for Achamian journeying to Ishterebinth in the intervening years between books; I only mention it because somehow Achamian will need to surpass Kellhus's own sorcerous abilities in order to be included in the books. A possible plot comparision in itself is that Achamian returns to Anasûrimbor Kellhus's court bearing warnings of doom from the north. Kellhus may even ask Achamian to teach his &quot;son's&quot;, Möenghus and his sibling.

I'm going to end this with the overall comparisions of parentage and relationships. I'd like to add that I'm sorry if this post has lost some articulation or elaboration nearing it's end. My girlfriend arrived at the apartment not to long ago and though she stands my nerdiness to a point she's leaving to her friend's cottage for a week; I guess I really should be paying a little more attention to her right now <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->. Not that I'll blame my lack of elaboration entirely on her annoying me as my sore throat and the tylenol are mucking my head.

To finish:

Though anor has expressed doubts concerning my argument, I believe that the scene nearing the end of The Thousandfold Thought involving Esmenet and Achamian's reunion is too intentional on Cû'jara Cinmoi's part not to at least instill some doubt concerning Esmenet's child's father. anor's argument is a good one stating that Kellhus and Esmenet started coupling far too early for there to be much doubt, however, the fact that Mr. Bakker wrote the following quote after Achamian and Esmenet's coupling is too implicative in my opinion. Though, again, overall I agree with anor concerning this, I have to believe that Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote it to continue blurring the truth and allow for closer parallels of the First and Second Apocalypses; though I don't share U-Boat's fear that they will mirror eachother. Cû'jara Cinmoi is too devious for that.

He watched her find her feet, saw the crescent of her belly. She was showing ... How could he not have seen that before?
view post


The Sagas as Foreshadowing? posted 14 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by Madness, Peralogue

As seems to be the usual as of late, I'll not be able to write much of a post at this moment. Neither will I be able to return for much of one tonight after work; as I've written my girlfriend is leaving tommorow for the cottage, and so tonight is my last opportunity to see her. However, I'm hoping that for the rest of the week, I'll be able to bunker down for some writting, following my shifts.

I've taken this opportunity on break once again today to respond quickly to a misconception of my writing. While I don't have much time, I hope I can quash this misinterpretation and allow for a more broad debate of The Aspect-Emperor.

Curethan, I took the time this morning before work to read over both my post and your own, following my initial read of yours. I've no idea really how you've interpreted my writing into a belief that the First Apocalypse will mirror the Second; this could not be any farther from my intent.

I do believe that Cu'jara Cinmoi has written the dreams and The Sagas with the intent of parallels. However, I don't in anyway believe that events will unfold as they did two thousand years prior to The Prince of Nothing.

The Heron Spear is either destroyed or in the hands of the Consult; the Scylvendi could not have kept such a weapon, else it would have been used in the past thousand years. Celmomas II was not a Dunyain nor was he an Aspect-Emperor, if Kellhus's new title proves to have support.

Furthermore, as I must depart and get back to the mundane job of edging shelves and such, I do not support any claim that Seswatha will return. I believe he is dead, though not buried as his heart is used in certain ritual initiations. His spirit may indeed be around, however, I'm more of a believer that Kellhus hypnotized Achamian and removed psychological Mandate blockings regarding the Gnosis. As well, I agree with anor that any reference to Seswatha possessing Achamian is purely metaphor regarding the use of sorcerous power.

Anyhow, I'm sorry to cut it short as I'd love to continue. I'll post again as I can. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 17 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

Wow. Just wow. Thank you Warrior-Poet for starting off my paddy's day celebrations with that tidbit. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 23 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

It's been a number of weeks since I've had the time to relax at home; too long since I've posted extensively. Near the end of February I lost my internet for a number of weeks and found myself posting sporadic morsels while on breaks at work. It seemed déjà vu everytime I'd sit to post; I'd find my thoughts starting to flow, my mind bursting with speculations, only to have to return to the mundane art of cabinetry.

When myself and my home connection were reunited I thought I'd finally find more time to write and post. However, I soon became immersed in the search for a new home, a search that ended in the last couple days when I stumbled upon a cozy one bedroom apartment near my current one.

Once again, I'd thought my exclusion by ulterior influences at an end. I was quickly and forcibly dissuaded of the notion once my girlfriend and I brought a new feline into my home; which is no easy task with a previous resident cat. While they are still in seperate areas of the apartment, each happily secluded with the necessities and scratch towers, they've decided for the moment to cease attempted intrusions into the other's zone. I now take this opportunity, finally, to write of The Great Ordeal.

As always, no matter what my situation in the past, I've stopped in everyday over the past weeks to read through threads and posts that have caught my attention. Again, as always, there are more than a few that incite me to write, though unfortantly, I've restricted myself to this thread whilst I can post at all.

Once again, I'd like to thank Warrior-Poet for bringing the synopsis to our attention. I've since, and likely many of you have as well, discovered that the synopsis is from the [url=http&#58;//www&#46;amazon&#46;co&#46;uk:2j2u6i9v]Amazon UK[/url:2j2u6i9v] website. Again, as many posters have suggested already, I think that we can look forward to a pre-March release of the novel with the exception of possible postponence.

I'm sad to admit that even the small glimpse into Eärwa c. 4132 Year-of-the-Tusk provided by the synopsis of The Great Ordeal completely obliterates many of my own speculations surrounding the initial pages of The Aspect-Emperor novels. However, I believe I have a better grasp on Cû'jara Cinmoi's direction and can now speculate more intelligently.

Throughout this and other threads regarding The Aspect-Emperor, I've maintained in my speculations that in a world as real as the one Cû'jara Cinmoi has created, future events could be discerned and would, inevitably, be decided by the personalities and relationships of his characters. I don't believe I'd suggested, as Curethan - in a fashion - asserted I did, that the events of the Second Apocalypse would mirror the First but that the personalities and relationships of the Second would mirror the First. Once again, I reiterate that I believed the parallels between Seswatha and Achamian, Kellhus and Celmomas II, and Esmenet's unborn child and Nau-Cayûti were evident and intentional.

My first insight, or rather, revelation provided the synopsis, due to lack of more appropriate words, completely floored me. While this is, of course, just speculation, I believe my own assertions regarding the parallels of relationships undone by this insight and furthermore, Curethan may just have to eat his... hat, I think you said?

As we all know, Cû'jara Cinmoi may write The Aspect-Emperor as a dualogy or a trilogy. As well, there is a third series to complete this tale of Eärwa, the title of which we are not yet privy to, which may also be a dualogy or trilogy. Anywhere between seven to nine books in total. Hense, came the revelation of The Aspect-Emperor series.

Anasûrimbor Kellhus is going to die.

I inferred this after reviewing the three possible ending of The Great Ordeal. Again, this is all just speculation and, even though I'll likely be mistaken again, I believe it's warranted.

- The holy war dubbed The Great Ordeal, proclaimed by The Aspect-Emperor Anasûrimbor Kellhus, travels north towards Golgotterath and the indomitable Consult. The Great Ordeal succeeds overcoming Golgotterath and the Inchoroi. With a possible three to five more books, we are left with the revelation that there is something worse than the Inchoroi.

- The Great Ordeal marches to Golgotterath and after the Third Great Investiture by Men the coalition of forces fragments; The Consult once again labours in peace to resurrect their vile lord.

- The Great Ordeal marches. Overcomes hordes of Sranc, Nonmen Erratics, and possibly even the Scylvendi. During the siege Anasûrimbor Kellhus is struck down by the servants of the Inchoroi. One of his children carries on his war.

Once again, I reiterate, these are only speculations. However, Kellhus dying leaves the story open for many possible plotlines.

I hate to cut this short but my friday night is coming through the apartment door on me. Friends come to celebrate.

I'm sad to read that for whatever reason, Achamian has become obsessed with the Dûnyain. It seems to me he, regardless of words stated and thoughts rehearsed at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, is as a bitter man whose love is perpetually stolen from him. However, I'll leave this and all above as food for thought.

Perhaps, if and when Anasûrimbor Kellhus dies, Achamian discovers the Dûnyain and entreats another to take on Kellhus's role of saviour.

Mithfânion - I hadn't read that before but thanks for the insight. I'd thought I'd covered most of White Lord's and Cû'jara Cinmoi's hash outs. view post


Scott Bakker ruined it for me. posted 25 March 2007 in Off-Topic DiscussionScott Bakker ruined it for me. by Madness, Peralogue

Just a comment on what Whiskeyjack wrote above.

It's funny that you mention that, Bakker crediting Erikson. Erikson himself actually credits Glen Cook, author of the Black Company novels, with the reinvention of the fantasy genre.

&quot;The thing about Glen Cook is that with The Black Company he single-handedly changed the face of fantasy - something a lot of people didn't notice and maybe still don't. He brought the story down to a human level, dispensing with the cliché archetypes of princes, kings, and evil sorcerers. Reading his stuff was like reading Vietnam War fiction on peyote.&quot; - Steve Erikson, author of Gardens of the Moon view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 25 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

I don't really intend for this to be a long post, I just wanted to respond to Curethan's latest post concerning my arguments.

Though I can't recall of which of them your argument exhibits, as it's been awhile since my high school philosophy class, I recall enough to see that your argument wholly embodies one of the fallacies of diversion.

It is very true that my assertions can be interpreted as Curethan has; it is, however, a major misrepresentation of what I'd intended, regardless of the eventual validity of my speculations.

It is true that pre-insight into The Great Ordeal I'd forcibly asserted that the personalties and relationships of the Second Apocalypse would mirror those of the First. The fact that many readers other than myself support the existence of the parallels proves that they are intentional.

Following my read of The Great Ordeal synopsis however, as I've sadly admitted, many of my speculations were flatly disproved; I'd, in fact, almost given up on speculation of Eärwa, intent on resigning myself to solely enjoy the journey of Cû'jara Cinmoi's writing. The fact that I'm writing now indicates how long that notion lasted.

As I've iterated, I believe I now have a better grasp on Cû'jara Cinmoi's direction and mindset. I still, perhaps half-heartedly, assert that the relationships and personalities of the Second Apocalypse will mirror those of the First. My own deterrent to this assertion are the possible motives of Drusas Achamian. As I've written, I'm sorely disappointed that Achamian is apparently so obsessed with the Dûnyain; the only reason for this, as we readers know, is that Esmenet was &quot;stolen&quot; from him.

I am a strong supporter that in Eärwa, as in the real world, the intricate commune of souls determines events. We, as Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters, are all beautiful small pieces of the infinitly large mosaic of life. As Achamian writes and the Dûnyain assert, the world turns on the seemingly small and insignificant events between persons. As the Dûnyain assert the world, on an impossibly large and incomprehensible scale, follows the laws of cause and effect, a soul being one domino of many.

However, to assert that because personalities and relationships are parallels that events will parallel as well is ignorant.

At the end of The Thousandfold Thought, Drusas Achamian and Anasûrimbor Kellhus have been estranged due to a women, Kellhus's wife, in the opening hours of the Second Apocalypse. Again, though anor has provided sufficient evidence to doubt, it is arguable that Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote of Esmenet and Achamian's reunion overlooking Shimeh to instill doubt of the parentage of Esmenet's unborn child.

In the opening hours of the First Apocalypse, which for basis of argument I will assert as when Celmomas II declares the First Ordeal, Seswatha and Celmomas II are estranged due to insinuations of Sharal's adultery. This instilled doubt of Nau-Cayûti's parentage.

Furthermore, we now, as I've said, have many insights into The Great Ordeal provided by the seemingly vague synopsis. Perhaps the emotionally deluged Kellhus and Achamian will be reunited as friends. The relationship between them and Esmenet, as well as their parallels, do not, however, imply that Kellhus and Achamian will be reunited as Kellhus dies in Achamian's lap, beneath the horns of Min-Uroikas and the ramparts of Golgotterath. Neither does it imply that Achamian and Esmenet's child will journey into Golgotterath nor on any quest for the Heron Spear. In fact, the synopsis itself likely disproves that.

I feel my argument turning to rambles here; as well, time is slipping on me as I have to prepare for dinner.

I'll leave you all with a couple points which we need to keep in mind during our Great Ordeal speculations. Once again, as with my original Aspect-Emperor post, I call all fans of the series to speculate on the pages of The Great Ordeal and beyond.

- Cil-Aujas: Cû'jara Cinmoi has written multiple times that he has devious intentions for this supposedly abandoned Nonmen Mansion in the mountains of the Three Seas during the timeframe of The Aspect-Emperor books. I myself have written speculations on either the Consult or Achamian using the Mansion as a base of operations within the Three Seas.

- Ishuäl: The Dûnyain's own mountain fastness. Though used by the Kûniüric High Kings, the fact that in Ihrimsû, the tongue of Injor-Niyas, Ishüal means &quot;Exalted Grotto&quot; and Ishterebinth means &quot;Exalted Stronghold.&quot; Leads me to believe that Ishüal may have been part of Injor-Niyas long before it ever belonged to the Norsirai domain.

- Anasûrimbors of the Dûnyain: I've written elsewhere, and I'm surprised that I've read no other speculations, that I believe it very possible Kellhus has siblings and Dûnyain children among the offspring of Ishuäl. Cû'jara Cinmoi has hinted at more Dûnyain, specifically, at least a female, exiting the monastic fastness; perhaps that female is related to, as Mithfânion corrected me, the prodigy Anasûrimbor Kellhus. view post


The Nonmen Quya (spoilers) posted 27 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AThe Nonmen Quya (spoilers) by Madness, Peralogue

I know this topic is just over a year old, I just thought to resurrect it as it has some of my personal favorite Cu'jara Cinmoi quotes. As well, I thought to rectify a misconception within the post concerning Twayleph's original comments.

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:ofv01owo
The Siqu need not be Quya, though they could be. The ability to see and work sorcery is heritable, though far less so in Men than in Nonmen. The Quya are in fact hereditary sorcerers.[/quote:ofv01owo] view post


The Nonmen Quya (spoilers) posted 28 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AThe Nonmen Quya (spoilers) by Madness, Peralogue

In this thread above, and elsewhere in the forums, whenever a poster refers to Nonmen Magi they constantly seem to refer to them solely as Quya. The misconception I'm referring to is just that; Nonmen sorcerers need not be Quya. I could have quoted only the end of the above passage, as it was the only relevent part to my point.

The reason I point this out, aside from my absurd wish for posts to be fanatically accurate, is that I think the issue will be rather important later; specifically, the fact that the ability to work sorcery is more heritable in Nonmen than Men. It raises some interesting questions, especially if Kellhus's assertions of sorcery prove correct. That in itself is material for another discussion, however, as I maintain a view of Kellhus as Dunyain until near the end of The Thousandfold Thought. view post


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