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Questions that haunt me after just reading TTT. posted 05 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

From a rather breathtaking 100 final pages, which I just read. Obviously, major spoiler to follow...... First I have to state the things that I couldn't figure out. Let me know your thoughts please. 1) Why does Moenghus have to die, according to Kellhus? Why does he do it? I've read the section a couple of times but I do not get a proper explanation. I guess the closest I come to is that Kellhus fears that Moenghus wishes to take his place and become Aspect Emperor instead, but Kellhus then speaks of "apocalyptic conspiracies" and " a counterfeit war against Golgotterath". Is he saying that Moenghus was or would have been in league with the No-God? Because given everything else we hear, that would be absurd. Moenghus strongly opposed them as much as he could, that much is clear. So why kill him? 2) I simply cannot see how Moenghus dies. Kellhus has stabbed him. Cnaiur comes to him, and the following happens: *Cnaiur admits to loving him, and kisses him on the mouth after Moenghus says he needs his strength. *Cnaiur graps into his breeches and Moenghus gasps, jerks and spasms as Cnaiur rolls out the chorea across his cheek.White light flares from Moenghus' sockets. [i:71cdpm1q]"But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them".[/i:71cdpm1q] *Cnaiur cries out "not again!" , "how could you leave me?". What I don't get is: a) How does Moenghus die? Is it the Chorea? b) If it is the chorea, why does Cnaiur bring it forth if he doesn't want Moenghus to die? c) What does Moenghus need from Cnaiur anyway that requires his strength? I just don't get that part . Does he need Cnaiur to give him air? It seems odd that Moenghus would ask that, knowing he was about do die. This whole section is an unsatisfying blur to me. 3) Why does Achamian survive? No explanation is given for this. The Ciphrang beats him and then drags him away into the sky. How does he survive? Or rather, why? If it is as the Ciphrang says and it is only an eye that he came for, as per his Summoner's intstruction (Iyokus), then why does he not lose one? 4) Why did the Ciphrang go to the tent in which Little Moenghus lay, the one guarded by the single Hundred Pillars guardsmen? Presumably to ask after Achamian's whereabouts, as he later does, but the whole scene seemed rather odd to me. 5) Any idea what the secret could be that the Inchoroi Synthese (Aurang) tells the little boy? 6) On another note, what was it that Seswatha told Celomos's son that he would find in the heart of Golgotterath, the thing that led him to go there? Clearly he didn't know he was searching for the Heron Spear, so what was it...? view post


Re: Questions that haunt me after just reading TTT. posted 05 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Mithfânion":1gp8twjy]From a rather breathtaking 100 final pages, which I just read. Obviously, major spoiler to follow...... First I have to state the things that I couldn't figure out. Let me know your thoughts please. 1) Why does Moenghus have to die, according to Kellhus? Why does he do it? I've read the section a couple of times but I do not get a proper explanation. I guess the closest I come to is that Kellhus fears that Moenghus wishes to take his place and become Aspect Emperor instead, but Kellhus then speaks of "apocalyptic conspiracies" and " a counterfeit war against Golgotterath". Is he saying that Moenghus was or would have been in league with the No-God? Because given everything else we hear, that would be absurd. Moenghus strongly opposed them as much as he could, that much is clear. So why kill him? [/quote:1gp8twjy] From what I undestood, and from discussion here in this forum, Kellhus comes to the conclusion that logically the Dunyain's goals and the Consult's goals would ultimately be the same. If the Outside does really exist then in order for the Dunyain to fulfill their mission than the Outside's influence must be removed from Earwa. In essence the Outside is a wild card variable in their great equation. It can never be accounted for and so it must be removed. If the Consult is right the influence can be removed by sealing Earwa. The Dunyain would ultimately adopt the Consult's aims as their own. [quote="Mithfânion":1gp8twjy] 2) I simply cannot see how Moenghus dies. Kellhus has stabbed him. Cnaiur comes to him, and the following happens: *Cnaiur admits to loving him, and kisses him on the mouth after Moenghus says he needs his strength. *Cnaiur graps into his breeches and Moenghus gasps, jerks and spasms as Cnaiur rolls out the chorea across his cheek.White light flares from Moenghus' sockets. [i:1gp8twjy]"But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them".[/i:1gp8twjy] *Cnaiur cries out "not again!" , "how could you leave me?". What I don't get is: a) How does Moenghus die? Is it the Chorea? b) If it is the chorea, why does Cnaiur bring it forth if he doesn't want Moenghus to die? c) What does Moenghus need from Cnaiur anyway that requires his strength? I just don't get that part . Does he need Cnaiur to give him air? It seems odd that Moenghus would ask that, knowing he was about do die. This whole section is an unsatisfying blur to me. [/quote:1gp8twjy] I was a little confused too but remember, Cnaiur is nearly consumed by madness and obsession. He does kill Moenghus, because he must and he does do it with the Chorae. He was already wounded by Kelhus, probably so that it would even be possible for Cnaiur to kill him. Yes Cnaiur is upset for Moenghus for "leaving him" even though he is the one who killed Moenghus, he is quite mad by this point, so it is no surprise he views things in such a skewed manner. (when I was first reading it I actually thought Moenghus had pulled out the Chorae and not the other way around, just the way it was written was a little ambigous/clumsy) [quote="Mithfânion":1gp8twjy] 3) Why does Achamian survive? No explanation is given for this. The Ciphrang beats him and then drags him away into the sky. How does he survive? Or rather, why? If it is as the Ciphrang says and it is only an eye that he came for, as per his Summoner's intstruction (Iyokus), then why does he not lose one? 4) Why did the Ciphrang go to the tent in which Little Moenghus lay, the one guarded by the single Hundred Pillars guardsmen? Presumably to ask after Achamian's whereabouts, as he later does, but the whole scene seemed rather odd to me. 5) Any idea what the secret could be that the Inchoroi Synthese (Aurang) tells the little boy? [/quote:1gp8twjy] No real idea on any of these. [quote="Mithfânion":1gp8twjy] 6) On another note, what was it that Seswatha told Celomos's son that he would find in the heart of Golgotterath, the thing that led him to go there? Clearly he didn't know he was searching for the Heron Spear, so what was it...?[/quote:1gp8twjy] He told him that his lover/wife or whatever who had beent aken by the Sranc was there and alive. He needed to get him there under false pretenses because he wouldn't have undertaken it for the Heron Spear. view post


Re: Questions that haunt me after just reading TTT. posted 06 Feb 2006, 00:02 by Nauticus, Auditor

I'll try out some of the ones that the other guy didn't just answer. [quote="Mithfânion":1bi8cp2x]3) Why does Achamian survive? No explanation is given for this. The Ciphrang beats him and then drags him away into the sky. How does he survive? Or rather, why? If it is as the Ciphrang says and it is only an eye that he came for, as per his Summoner's intstruction (Iyokus), then why does he not lose one? [/quote:1bi8cp2x] Iyokus did not want to kill Achamian, but he wanted to show what he was capable of. He understood the situation in which Achamian took his eyes - he understood why Achamian did it, so he did not take Achamian's. Instead, he proved he's powerful. As far as 'why' Achamian lived, the answer is that Iyokus didn't want to kill him. I think it's obvious that Achamian - a wizard - and Iyokus - the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires - will meet again in the next series. [quote="Mithfânion":1bi8cp2x]4) Why did the Ciphrang go to the tent in which Little Moenghus lay, the one guarded by the single Hundred Pillars guardsmen? Presumably to ask after Achamian's whereabouts, as he later does, but the whole scene seemed rather odd to me. [/quote:1bi8cp2x] You answered your own question, so whether or not it seemed weird is irrelevant. [quote="Mithfânion":1bi8cp2x]5) Any idea what the secret could be that the Inchoroi Synthese (Aurang) tells the little boy? [/quote:1bi8cp2x] One can presume that it will influence something later. view post


posted 06 Feb 2006, 01:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

On why/how Cnaiur killed Moenghus : I won't say the scene wasn't confused/confusing, but it seems to me the explanation was there. Cnaiur told himself what seemed like hundreds of times that he "wandered trackless grounds" - in other words, that he could make whims of what moved him. He was convinced that this would be the downfall of Moenghus, and this is precisely what happened. As expected, Cnaiur's rage didn't hold against Moenghus's manipulation and insight, and he found himself loving him again. But Cnaiur was able to use his love - to use the Darkness that Comes Before, rather than tame it as the Dunyain do - in order to destroy Moenghus. In this instance, he managed to get himself to touch Moenghus with a Chorae out of love, even though he knew it was going to kill him. Of course, to hold such contradictory and absurd thoughts you need to be mad, but what with Cnaiur's state of mind during TTT that's really not a problem...That also explains why he both wept and rejoiced at Moenghus' death; he at once loved him (and therefore despaired of seeing him die) and hated him. I really don't think that Moenghus "needed Cnaiur's strenght". It was just part of the manipulation, to make him feel that he(Moe) needed Cnaiur just as much as Cnaiur needed him, in order to make his attraction surpass the obvious shame and madness of the affair. The question of why Achamian survived is actually the subject of a topic by itself, so I won't repeat myself here. I don't see what's awkward or weird about the scene where the Ciphrang goes to a Hundred Pillars to ask Achamian's whereabouts. Iyokus didn't - couldn't - know Achamian's location because he had left after the battle started, so Iyokus sent the Ciphrang into the camp to ask people. I don't think the Synthese was actually going to tell the boy a secret, it was just a trick to get his curiosity and to avoid him calling out for help, I think. My theory is that the Synthese was recruiting the boy to become a member of the Consult, but I'm really not sure. Nau-Cayuti thought he was searching for his concubine, Aulisi, even though as others have pointed out, this was just Seswatha's trick to get him to help steal the Heron Spear; it's written down under "Apocalypse" in the Glossary, p.413 in my Canadian edition TTT. view post


posted 04 Mar 2006, 17:03 by Noctis, Candidate

Not to resurrect a dead thread, but I just finished TTT and the thing about the Inchoroi and the little boy really grabbed my attention. I agree that there wasn't any sort of secret exchanged, this was just the candy that the synthese used to lure the kid closer. The synthese can possess people right? So maybe this is foreshadowing, that the freaky bird is planning to hide from Kellhus in this way, or use the boy to get close to Kellhus' court (in 20 years the boy would be just a little older than Moenghus and the unborn)... Not really clear on how the possession works, though, Kellhus seemed to be able to see right through it, but maybe that's just because he knew Esmi so well. view post


posted 04 Mar 2006, 21:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Synthese is just a shell that the Inchoroi can inhabit and control with it's soul/consciousness or whatever. We haven't see the Inchoroi possess people, just imhabit shell's made with the Tekne. view post


posted 04 Mar 2006, 22:03 by unJon, Auditor

I think he is referring to the Compulsion of Esmi, but I agree that it is not possession in the same sense as the Synthese. Still it is pretty close to "demonic possession." view post


posted 27 Mar 2007, 19:03 by wmdragon, Commoner

I also found the showdown between Cnauir and Moenghus confusing and unsatisfying. why would Moenghus risk getting killed by Cnauir by getting close to him? what did he need from Cnauir? view post


posted 27 Mar 2007, 23:03 by anor277, Didact

[quote="wmdragon":3p8vdzoz]I also found the showdown between Cnauir and Moenghus confusing and unsatisfying. why would Moenghus risk getting killed by Cnauir by getting close to him? what did he need from Cnauir?[/quote:3p8vdzoz] Just on this point, Moenghus "allows" Cnaiur's approach probably because Kellhus had already wounded Moenghus mortally. Kellhus, whose mistakes are carfeuuly learned from, undoubtedly would not leave such a dangerous opponent viable. Moenghus, in his death throes, reaches out to Cnaiur, who may possibly have been able to save him, but who also bore Moenghus a long standing grudge. Moenghus may have been able to deal with Cnaiur physically, even in his reduced condition; he ran the risk of mad, bad Cnaiur using the chorae. view post


posted 28 Mar 2007, 01:03 by Buckethead, Peralogue

[quote:3bjtzhcc]I think he is referring to the Compulsion of Esmi, but I agree that it is not possession in the same sense as the Synthese. Still it is pretty close to "demonic possession."[/quote:3bjtzhcc] i just finished re-reading this chapter... there is no compulsion (in the sense of this book or by it's normal definition) that wouldn't be considered more closely possesion. The inchoroi, controls her actions (her body), knows her thoughts, memories and controls her speech (mind). Esmi is there, but not nearly in the same sense as xinemas with the cants of compulsion. afterwards she isn't upset because she felt she had stated that she wasn't in love with him, rather it was because the inchoroi found it in her mind and kellhus agreed. how that's not demonic possesion is beyond me. also the synthese are shells meant to hold a mind and project one of the consult's soul (mind, voice and vision). if you are possesing a body with no soul or mind is that demonic possesion? to me the only real difference is that the synthese doesn't have an existing soul... splitting hairs i know, but i'm getting confused about the inchoroi around these boards. i have a feeling i should stop reading so much speculation... view post


posted 28 Mar 2007, 08:03 by Curethan, Didact

1. why kill Moenghus? The explanation Kellhus gives is that Moenghus [i:rowvk332]specifically[/i:rowvk332] has committed such crimes (i.e. sorcery at the very least) that he is damned and would seek immortality and the protection from the 'outside' in the same way as the inchoroi. (How this argument applies to all dunyain is murky to say the least...) Kellhus sees himself as not corruptable in this way obviously - in my mind because he believes he is chosen by some 'divine' power. It's more the way he [i:rowvk332]doesn't[/i:rowvk332] kill Mo that intrigues me... Kellhus delivers a mortal blow then leaves him for Cnaiur (proof of Kellhus' nascent morality?) 2. The sequence between Cnaiur and Mo - this is also interesting - its deliberate ambiguity suggests that something more has happened... remember we don't really know what happens to sorcerers who fall to chorae - and perhaps Mo - although weak - is also very crafty in his use of sorcery.... 'such was the force that had possesed them' refers to both of them - not just Mo. Then Cnaiur cries 'not again - how could u leave me...' well, did he die, or leave.... And Mo would have been well aware of the fact he was already dying, and the proximity of the chorae.... 3. Achamain not dying - the ciphrang is a creature of the outside - they are bound to complete the tasks assigned them before leave the needle world, as I recall. Defying its orders seems [b:rowvk332]very [/b:rowvk332]strange. And it flew a longs ways before dropping Akka somewhere that he would be cared for... 4. the ciphrang visiting little Mo - see above... seems like building clues that the 'creatures/powers' of the outside are indeed affecting events in Earwa. Mebe he was checking to see if the child was Kellhus' or not. 5. Aurang's secret - I think the litle boy was doomed basicly, kind of like the secret some psycho tells you about what's for dinner... 6. Nau's prize - that woulda been some chick he loved. [/b] view post


posted 28 Mar 2007, 16:03 by wmdragon, Commoner

[quote:1feqhlrt]Moenghus, in his death throes, reaches out to Cnaiur, who may possibly have been able to save him, but who also bore Moenghus a long standing grudge. Moenghus may have been able to deal with Cnaiur physically, even in his reduced condition; he ran the risk of mad, bad Cnaiur using the chorae.[/quote:1feqhlrt] hmmm, yeah, I think I can buy that. Cnauir was his only slim chance of getting saved, so seducing him was worth the risk. I guess I got thrown off by Moenghus getting rid of two skin-spies before dealing with Cnauir, the display of such power belied the fact that he was near death. view post


posted 28 Mar 2007, 20:03 by Harrol, Moderator

just finished re-reading this chapter... there is no compulsion (in the sense of this book or by it's normal definition) that wouldn't be considered more closely possesion. The inchoroi, controls her actions (her body), knows her thoughts, memories and controls her speech (mind). Esmi is there, but not nearly in the same sense as xinemas with the cants of compulsion. afterwards she isn't upset because she felt she had stated that she wasn't in love with him, rather it was because the inchoroi found it in her mind and kellhus agreed. how that's not demonic possesion is beyond me. also the synthese are shells meant to hold a mind and project one of the consult's soul (mind, voice and vision). if you are possesing a body with no soul or mind is that demonic possesion? I agree Buckethead. As I stated in anther thread look at her encounter with a soldier after her possession and you will see her inner corruption by contact with Aurang. view post


posted 28 Mar 2007, 22:03 by Jamara, Auditor

I think I have a good perspective on what may have happened between Mo and Cnaiur. Cnaiur killed Mo. He was driven to it. Cnaiur was most definitely mad by that time, and the one thread which never wavered amongst his thoughts was killing Mo. Never had that thought ever ceased. Over thirty years of harboring a hate. A hate for someone you loved. Now why did he cry out after killing Mo? Why did he not want him to leave again even though he killed him . . . Well I look at it as though even though you can love your wife and still want to care for her, you have to divorce her for things that she has done to you and made you do to yourself. Cnaiur felt that he had to kill the man he loved, but he still loved him. Cnaiur blamed Mo for making him kill him. It's not logical from our stand-point, but love is rarely logicall, especially to a mad man. I think in the end Cnaiur had to kill Mo. It wasn't really even a choice at that point. It was the sole drive of all his motives. He was merely following the path which had been forged by a deranged mind. But at the same time Mo had reaffirmed their 'love' at the last moment. Rekindled that buried ember from Cnaiur's adolescence. Cnaiur's emotions were in an upheaval, and even as he killed, he wanted to cherish and hold. view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 04:03 by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

i think cnair killed moengus simply to tell himself he had done it. the entirty of his life post-mo was bent on finding and killing mo, and at some point during the holy war he seemed to latch on to the fact that killing mo was the only way to ease his growing madness. the, when finally confronted by mo, he realizes that yes, he is still in love w/ mo, but at the same time he must quell the madness in his heart. then after killing him, he discovers that not only has the madness not lifted, but he is without the man he loved, and cries "why did you leave me" because there is no one who he feels can ease the pain within him view post


posted 29 May 2007, 12:05 by amodman, Commoner

Wow, so many people confused about what happened with Cnaiur and Moenghus? I thought it was pretty damn clear. What happens when a sorceror is touched with a Chorae? [b:3mmweiz0]They f***ing die.[/b:3mmweiz0] Their bodies turned to salt, to various degrees according to Achamian (based on sorceries worked, it seems, old Non-Men start falling apart fast). We even have that one description in the battle of Sumna of a Spire Sorcerer still appearing to be standing there, but falling apart since it's just a pile of salt that's retained his form. IN ANY CASE, Cnaiur found Moenghus intending to kill him, but was immediately begun to be worked again by the man who literally broke his mind, but [i:3mmweiz0]he still accomplished his goal[/i:3mmweiz0] when he touched the Chorae to Moenghus's cheek and it says [i:3mmweiz0]Moenghus' turned to salt[/i:3mmweiz0]. He is dead. He's gone. Kellhus's father is no more. That is the end of it. view post


posted 29 May 2007, 18:05 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote="amodman"]Wow, so many people confused about what happened with Cnaiur and Moenghus?.......quote] I think its less confusion more being certain there isn't more to interpret. After all that wouldn't be the first time it would appear someone has died and they actually didn't in a book. I also believe Moenghus is dead however. view post


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