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The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Twayleph, Auditor

I was intrigued by that new version of Seswatha's Dream of the Overthrow of the No-God, which Achamian dreams after being left half-dead by the Ciphrang. Do you think that was simply a nightmare, or the sign of something deeper going on ?

Perhaps it was Seswatha warning Achamian somehow, though I don't understand what that warning might be. Was it the No-God directly talking to Achamian? Achamian, after all, was broken then, just as Khellus was broken when he was bound to the Umiaki, when the No-God talked to him. Or maybe it was a result of Khellus' conversation with Seswatha? Is Kellhus so good he can turn even Seswatha's shadow?

Or maybe it was something else entirely? Thoughts welcome <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Grallon, Candidate

In the last dream Seswatha/Achamian watches with horror as Celomnas repeats word for word what the No-God says...

Personally I think Khellus still beleives he can master all circumstances - wich may be the trap that awaits him down the road... Could it be that Khellus will be made a puppet of the No-God ? Now that would be a twist !



G. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Twayleph, Auditor

So you think that Seswatha is warning Achamian of what will happen to Khellus? That's a very interesting theory. I, too, have a nag that Kellhus will have to pay for his newfound certainty. With all the parallels to the First Apocalypse's, it's very conceivable that Kellhus will be that over-confident High King who will fail the Three-Seas, just like Celmomas failed the High North. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:2ee0ruxb
...With all the parallels to the First Apocalypse's, it's very conceivable that Kellhus will be that over-confident High King who will fail the Three-Seas, just like Celmomas failed the High North.[/quote:2ee0ruxb]


I just recalled that not only was the dream Celomnas repeating the No-God's words - he was preceeding them... As if he was a mouth-peice... like the srancs... See the parallel ?!

So Khellus hangs on that tree and he gets visions... Since then we've been led to beleive that Khellus had had a personal revelation but what if he himself was misled ? In that sense he wouldn't fail the Three Seas per se but rather act as some sort of trojan horse. The manipulator extraordinaire being manipulated - ha !


G. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Twayleph, Auditor

Yes, that is true. In the dream Celmomas seemed to truly mean his words, like they belonged to him...Just like the victim of a Cants of Compulsion can say all those terrible things and never realize the words don't belong to him.

Kellhus being truly mad, the new Aspect-Emperor a tool of the No-God...That would be a good plot...and a so very bad twist of events for the Three-Seas <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Perhaps that's what Scott meant when he replied to complaints that Kellhus had grown too powerful and that the Consult was no longer such a threat. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Andrew, Peralogue

I think this all has to be considered in light of the question, to what extent is the No-God able to function At ALL as 'he' currently is? He clearly hasn't been resurected yet. If he could manipulate from beyond the grave, i would expect that his return would not be so entirely contingent on the progress of the consult in regard to resurrecting the Tekne. So my short answer is, I don't think that theory can be correct. I don't know what would explain Kellus' vision, although it could just something like the resonance whereby the soldiers experienced the crazy dreams as well. Could be Seswatha. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by zarathustra, Peralogue

Its actually Anaxophous the Kianian king that rides alongside Seswatha in the chariot.
For me the dream represents Achamians guilt at betraying Seswatha. This is due to the fact that he revealed Kellhus' location to the skin spies and Cnauir. He has to a certian extent become an agent of the Consult by doing this and hence this is reflected in the dream where Anaxophous becomes an agent of the Consult.
For me the No God at the momment is like Sauron from Lord of the Rings he does not have actual power as he does not have a substantiated body in the real world but is still more than making his prescence felt. It is interesting that Kellhus says to Aurang that he is now coming for everyone including the Consult.
I don't know what to make of Kellhus talking to Seswatha directly I think we'll have to wait for AE for that one. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:2qyi0fxk
Or maybe it was something else entirely? Thoughts welcome <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:2qyi0fxk]

I took the dream as resulting from Kellhus conversation with Seswatha. We don't know what has been said, nor what Kellhus gave to get the Gnosis.

What if he gave Achamian's body to Seswatha? What if the dreams is not Seswatha warning Achamian, but rather his soul warning him that Seswatha is taking control? view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Da-krul, Auditor

Now THATS a intruiging theroy Tol h'Eddes <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 03 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, I think that what Kelhus did to Achamian in order to get the Gnosis may have a larger role to play than suspected, perhaps it "awakened" something of Seswatha within Achamian.

And as someone pointed out above, it wasn't Celmomas in that dream sequence it was the other High King who ended the Second Apocalypse by killing the No-God with the Heron Spear. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 04 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Twayleph, Auditor

Lots of great ideas, theories and corrections here.

First off, I agree with Andrew that the No-God should be still dead, but from Kellhus' experience when he was bound to the tree, I think we can assume the No-God is still around in some form (and not only as a memory imprinted on the Battleplain) - I don't buy Moënghus' explanation that Kellhus is just externalizing the darkness within. Perhaps the No-God's nature is such that he can never truly disappear, or perhaps the Consult has already started to re-animate it and it is capable of projecting its will outward to "receptive" souls. In any case, I think there's more to the No-God than memories, even at the time of the events described in PoN.

To zarathustra's comment, I admit my mistake <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> And I admit it again to Entropic Existence ! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Very interesting theory Tol h'Eddes, I like the idea that Kellhus had to "purchase" the Gnosis from Seswatha. I wonder, however, what Kellhus would have to do with Achamian being taken over by Seswatha. For a while now there were signs that Achamian was already becoming a new Seswatha in power, character and position. Would Seswatha really need Kellhus' help to take over Achamian ? This is not a rethorical question, I'm really curious as to just how much influence Seswatha's shadow has over the Mandati and what it can force them to do. It can certainly force them to betray their closest friends. Perhaps all Kellhus gave was his permission, to allow Seswatha to take over his "friend", but both characters seem so heartless and unsentimental that I wonder why that would be an issue. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 04 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well we know Kelhus uses something similar to hypnosis in order to bring Seswatha to the fore of Achamian, so that somehow Seswatha's permission could be given in order for Achamian to give up the Gnosis. Otherwise no matter how much he believed it was the right thing to do Achamian was physically incapable of doing so.

Given Kelhus' incredible knowledge of human psycholohy, and the fact that any means of hypnosis can be potentially quite powerful in affecting the psyche, who knows that the ramifications of that act could be. All of the Mandati are imprinted with Seswatha to some degree, it may be possible the hypnotic trick made Achamian even more of a "vessel" than he was previously view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 05 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Mithfânion, Didact

I think we're searching too deep here, or in the wrong direction. The dream was different this time, though we are never shown if Anaxophus actually does throw the Heron Spear, but I don't recall Anaxophus speaking in such a way the first time we had an account of Mog's Fall.

So, it was odd. But I don't think it translated to Achamian himself, just something else which is too hard to put a finger on. It must have some sort of meaning.

On another note, what was it that Seswatha told Celomos's son that he would find in the heart of Golgotterath, the thing that led him to go there?
Clearly he didn't know he was searching for the Heron Spear, so what was it...? view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 05 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Mithfânion&quot;:2u7ll50a

On another note, what was it that Seswatha told Celomos's son that he would find in the heart of Golgotterath, the thing that led him to go there?
Clearly he didn't know he was searching for the Heron Spear, so what was it...?[/quote:2u7ll50a]

You mean when they both went into Golgoterath? They kept mentioning her. It wasn't a thing that Celmomas' son thought they were going to retrieve, it was his wife/lover I believe. She had been taken by the Sranc and in order to get the great hero to travel into Golgotterath with him to retrieve the Heron Spear Seswatha deliberately tricked him. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 13 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by RaiTei, Candidate

It was his concubine, Ainisi somehting like that. Check your glossary under Apocalypse view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 13 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea it was his concubine, which is why I used lover <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Same thing heh. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 14 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by RaiTei, Candidate

Either way, if our new Aspect Emperor wants to have a fighting chance of killing the No-God, he's going to need a boatload of new tricks, such as the Heron Spear. Glossary said last dissapeared after Scylvendi came to it's resting place. So.. perhaps post PON Cnuair's involvement w/ spear could cause another confrontation? We've most definitely not seen the last of our many scarred friend. Mad even though he is. (Kissing a spider's face *shudders* "True Mouth" *Retches*) view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 14 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Entropic_existence, Moderator

One thing that Scott wouldn't answer for me, as it is relevant to themes to be explored in AE, was whether Kellhus' mastery of the Gnosis is greater even than that of the Non-men Sorcerors of old. We do not know if any of the Non-men ever devised or used a second inutterable string like Kelhus has managed to do because of his intellect. So while many things that saved Humanity during the First Apocalypse are no longer existant, there may very well be new discoveries to be made. I think this will be highly likely, but I am still thinking the Heron Spear will be an explored thread of AE. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Actually, Mithfânion, I believe we have seen the Heron Spear used:

A thread of silver light, swaying across the spiralling heights, flashing across the Carapace. A crack that made ears bleed. Everywhere, raining debris. The anguished wail of innumerable inhuman throats.


That's from TWP, chapter one, during one of Achamian's dreams of the confrontation at Mengedda.

As far as the hypnosis, perhaps Kellhus didn't speak to "Seswatha" at all. Maybe he just soothed Achamian's latent fears of giving him the power of the Gnosis. It's pretty murky, but I have a hard time accepting that the ancient sorceror is present in the Mandati in any form capable of conversation. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by zarathustra, Peralogue

Man it's seriously disconcerting having Mog Pharau turn up on the Forum. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Mog-Pharau&quot;:3umoep50

As far as the hypnosis, perhaps Kellhus didn't speak to "Seswatha" at all. Maybe he just soothed Achamian's latent fears of giving him the power of the Gnosis. It's pretty murky, but I have a hard time accepting that the ancient sorceror is present in the Mandati in any form capable of conversation.[/quote:3umoep50]

It wasn't Achamian's latent fears that prevented him from giving Kellhus the Gnosis, he literally couldn't do so of his own accord. It's something else, a fail-safe mechanism built into the Mandate through their ritual involving Seswatha's Heart, they are literally incapable of betraying the Gnosis, they need permission in order to do so. That is why Achamian was opening his mouth... and nothing would come out. Kellhus used the hypnotic trick to get around this.

Seswatha is still a presence within each and every Mandate Sorceror, he preserved his consciousness, or at least an impression of his consciousness to be passed on to his followers, I really do think that this had something to do with what Kellhus did. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;zarathustra&quot;:1cws4on4
Man it's seriously disconcerting having Mog Pharau turn up on the Forum.[/quote:1cws4on4]

What can I say? I MUST BE HEARD.

Ent-Ex, as far as I can recall, Seswatha has exerted no overt influence on events in the books, being present only through the Dreams, where he simply plays out events as they happened over and over. I still find it a little hard to believe that Bakker would have him step forward and take a pivotal, active role while making the event itself so hazy and ambiguous.

Unless he's said so explicitly elsewhere here and I just haven't seen it. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Twayleph, Auditor

Seswatha has exerted no overt influence on events in the books, being present only through the Dreams, where he simply plays out events as they happened over and over.


I would say that's a pretty big influence already, no? The Dreams don't just make Achamian's nights unpleasant, they define him in more than one manner, as they do each and every Mandate Schoolman. It's because of Seswatha that the Mandate exists at all - the whole plot of PoN would be entirely overturned if the Mandate was out of the picture.

If you mean "overt influence" as being direct influence over the turn of current events...then what of Achamian's torture at the hands of the Scarlet Spires ? Achamian would've most certainly broken under torture if it wasn't of Seswatha's influence; he wouldn't have watched idly while they blinded Xinemus...Of course, it's not the same as appearing in a big flash of light and burning everything around him to cinders, but then neither was Seswatha's intervention in TTT flashy. He just blocked Achamian from speaking : a subtle, invisible intervention that nonetheless had important consequences - just like his intervention in TWP.

Although the scene was hazy, personally it just makes me want to learn more about it, I think it was well-written and intentionally ambiguous. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by H, Auditor

I think that history will repeat itself, Akka will become a new Seswatha. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

If Seswatha was keeping him from speaking during the torture, I think that would have been made explicit. Achamian didn't want to give up the Gnosis to the Scarlet Spires, independent of whatever Seswatha may or may not have willed. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Harrol, Moderator

My understanding is that Sethwatha would not let him speak even under torture. That is why Iyokos said that none of the dozen or so Mandate that were tortured ever revealed the gnosis. That Mandate have no choice after touching Seswatha's heart they are in some way bound by him. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 16 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Whiskey Prophet, Commoner

I've had this crazy thought. What if it wasn't really a dream, but a confused prophecy (yes, that would make Akka the prophet) of future events bound up with imagery from his terrible, nightly dreams. What he is really seeing is himself and Kellhus in the future confronting the No-God. I agree its not the most likley of possibilities, but the dream is 'wrong', and that wrongness seems to be Anaxophus hearing the No-God's voice, as we now think (I'm not 100% sure anyways) that Kellhus does. It makes for interesting thought I think, but maybe gives too much away of the future plot to be the author's real intent there. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 17 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by rycanada, Peralogue

I think that Akka and Seswatha are now one essentially one person, although that person may not realize it yet. I think the fact that Akka has a new descriptor "The Wizard" like Seswatha did shows this status. As for his dream, I think it's how Seswatha himself would dream (rather than how Akka would dream, which would be how Seswatha would remember) - real life events mixed up and changed by his anxieties. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 17 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Kingmanor, Candidate

I think that Achamian will also find the Heron Spear. view post


The Dream that went wrong posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Dream that went wrong by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Mog-Pharau&quot;:culixwux
If Seswatha was keeping him from speaking during the torture, I think that would have been made explicit. Achamian didn't want to give up the Gnosis to the Scarlet Spires, independent of whatever Seswatha may or may not have willed.[/quote:culixwux]

From the section where Achamian is preparing to teach Kellhus the Gnosis:

Quote: &quot;TTT p.140 (trade paperback)&quot;:culixwux
Achamian frowned, but he knew better than to counsel or contradict. Breathing deeply, he opened his mouth to recite the first utteral string of the Ishra Discursia, the most ancient and most simple of the Gnostic Cants of Calling. But for some reason no soung escaped his lips. It seemed he should be speaking, but something... inflexible had seized his throat. He shook his head and laughed, glancing away in embarassment, then tried once again.

Still nothing.

"I..." Achamian looked to Kellhus, more than baffled. "I Ccannot speak."[/quote:culixwux]

Kellhus then declared it to be Seswatha, etc. Now, when I (and I think others) speak of Seswatha having and exerting influence, we aren't necessarily speaking of some spiritual manifestation... more of a remnant, an impression of his consciousness (although I wouldn't rule out something more) If Seswatha's heart and the binding ceremony imprints Seswatha's memories upon the Mandate Schoolmen it is reasonable to assume some remnant of his consciousness remained at the very least, as I said an imprint if you will.

It is entirely possible Kellhu's explanation to Achamian was merely so he could get Achamian to submit to hypnosis to trick him into teaching the Gnosis but it is also logical, and fits with the theme of the books. Think about it, the Gnosis has never been betrayed by a Mandate Schoolman, under any torture since the birth of the Mandate several thousand years ago. It has also never, ever been betrayed willingly. I think the most reasonable explanation is that the Mandate Schoolmen are incapable of betraying the Gnosis and this is one more aspect of the binding ritual they undergo with Seswatha's Heart. view post


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