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The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Conphas, Commoner

I was a bit disappointed and confused by the final meeting between K&M.

What was the point other than to wrap up a plotline? Kellhus didn't learn anything from Moenghus - his father just repeated everything he assumed Kellhus had done and learned along the way.

Am I missing something? What did ya'll get out of this meeting? And I still don't get what tTT is... view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by rycanada, Peralogue

Sorry, that should have read unite the "world", not rold, which isn't even a word.

Anyway, I wasn't overjoyed by the "reveal"-style ending, but I know the point of the discussion. Kellhus has a categorical split from the thought of the Dunyain - he IS the Warrior-prophet, and he has somehow transcended his humanity (even the sort of super-humanity of the Dunyain). view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 28 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think one of the most important parts of the meeting between Moenghus and Kellhus is to show us a few things. One was that the Dunyain aren't all seeing. Moenghus ended up going down the wrong path ultimately, the road he chose was a dead end. Another is that Kellhus has transcended the Dunyain to such a degree that one could argue he is no longer truly Dunyain. Whether this means he has stepped further along the path of the Dunyain, or stepped out of that "track" altogether remains to be seen I think.

The confrontation I think ensured that we'll still be on our toes for The Aspect-Emperor as to what role the rest of the Dunyain will ultimately play. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 28 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by rycanada, Peralogue

The Dunyain will side with the Consult, I'm practically certain of it. Otherwise it just won't be a good enough story. Oh, and when the Consult talk about the Architect (I believe they at one point refer to him as human) doesn't that character seem awfully Dunyain-like? view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 05 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Mithfânion, Didact

I found the meeting between the two, or more specifically the climax of it, very peculiar. Why kill him? How does he die? Is ithe chorea or the knife wound. Why the chorea by Cniaur if he didn't want to kill him but save him? view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by HosStepper, Commoner

New guy here.
It seems to me that the father was doomed to follow the path of the Consult mostly as a resuly of his inability to move beyond being a Dunyain.
Kellhus is left for us/me to be considered the savior of mankind or according to Akka's last dream/vision the ultimate failing of mankind, unable to pull the trigger with the spear. Just a thought. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? by Cu Roi, Candidate

Throughout the end of TTT, Khellus recollects his journey beginning in Ishual & ending with his meeting with Moenghus. He reveals that with every step forward he collapses possibilites. This is important, I believe, in understanding how circumstance ensnared Moenghus.

Moenghus left Ishual in much the same way as Khellus, knowing nothing of the outside world. He too found that men were as children to him. He too fell into captivity with the Scylvendi, the same tribe as a matter of fact. That is where their paths diverged. Moenghus scarred his arms with swazond in order to survive the journey through the steppes. The swazond kept him hidden among the Scylvendi, but would have been a death warrant in the Nansurium. So his only option was to travel away from the empire, into Fanim territory. Just like Khellus, he awed those around him and placed himself in a position to master all of the worlds most potent weapons: faith, war, & sorcery. He had no way of knowing that the sorcery he was commiting himself to, he would not be able to utilize effectively.

So unable to master the world in the way he needed to fullfill the Thousandfold Thought. He devised a way to make another Dunyain available who could. The majesty of all of this is that Khellus's entire journey was orchestrated by Moenghus. Khellus realizes this. Every step he has taken has been on conditioned ground.

The meeting is important because it is where Khellus actually takes control. Moenghus expected to find a kindred soul. Someone of like mind. Yet he didn't foresee the visions that would convince Khellus of the existence of divinity. That's why all of the scrutiny and calculation. Why he thinks Khellus mad. He didn't factor in the possibilty that the divine was real, and why would he, he has no proof that it exists. Just the way that Khellus was surprised by the existence of Sorcery way back in Darkness.

Moenghus was only overthrown because he was denied variables. His knowledge was incomplete.

Khellus had to kill him, clear him from the plate, in order to condition things according to his divergent purpose.

At least I think... <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Shryke, Candidate

That's actually the best description of what happens at that meeting I've heard yet.

Don't forget, he also had to kill Moengus because Moengus was still, at heart, a Dunyian. And Kellhus saw that inevitably, the purposes of the Dunyain would have to match the purposes of the Consult (sealing this world from the Outside). The Outside is a variable thatr cannot be controlled, so to the Dunyain, it must be isolated.

So why doesn't Kellhus want this too?

Because, as he says at the end, he's become MORE then Dunyain, or at least he thinks he has. He's seeing visions, and seeing halos around his hands. Something that all his Dunyian training cannot predict is happening to him. He believes he's become the prophisied savior of the world I think. Thus, the Dunyain are now his enemies. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by rycanada, Peralogue

I agree. This is exactly what I think Kellhus is doing. He has to kill Moenghus to remove both variables and opposition. He removes variables because he is Dunyain - he removes opposition because after his circumfiction, he is non-neutral with regards to human life. He is committed to either the notion of saving humanity, doing the God's will, or both. (Although interestingly, I think Kellhus' religious views are closer to Fanimry than Inrithism). view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 28 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Ikiru, Candidate

Moenghus does believe in the divine - he explicitly rejects the Dunyain belief that the world is "closed." Moenghus just believes in a God who "sleeps," as he puts it, who can only be awakened through striving for the Absolute. Kellhus seems to believe in a God who is both immanent and transcendent - within the world, through the "one Here" he describes to Akka, AS WELL AS Outside. Kellhus is convinced that when Moenghus realizes Kellhus's view is right, and damnation awaits him for the monstrous things he's done (think of the woman and child he was feeding to the skin-spies), he will join with the Inchoroi. This is why he kills him. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 28 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Darlan Laerdon, Commoner

I dont see how believeing he's some sort of trancendent son of god somehow makes kellhus exempt from going to hell for using people like he's been using them for all three books.

I'm personally of the opinion Kellhus is going to turn out to be a badguy, and our only hope is Akka. GO AKKA! view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 28 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Ikiru, Candidate

Darlan, I thought the same thing. If Moenghus is a damned sinner, isn't Kellhus? But I guess that's where the concept of rememption comes in. Moenghus is still Dunyain - rather than repent, he'll try to master circumstance. But since Kellhus has explicitly repudiated the Dunyain and embraced the God's will, he's been "saved," so to speak.

But the fact that the No-God speaks to him as well as the God suggests that he may not be quite as holy as he thinks. Maybe he WILL turn out to be a villian, if the No-God's voices win out. He envisioned Moenghus joining with the Consult to sacrifice the Three-Seas; it's possible this actually be his own destiny. But I hope not. It's really hard to say, because Scott's writing is so ambiguous. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 01 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Darlan Laerdon, Commoner

I personally had interpreted the final dream of Akka in the thousandfold thought as representitive of what would come to pass, Akka is standing against the Nogod, and Kellhus (anaphaxos), though it looked as though he was standing with him as well, was saying exacly what the nogod was saying, or rather, he will be doing what the nogod wants to do.

AKKA FOR TEH WIN! view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 01 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Ikiru, Candidate

That's possible, but it's also possible the dream is just reflective of Akka's despair. Or, because the No-God is awakening, it's screwing up the dreams. The one problem with Anaxophus = Kellhus is that by this time, Achamian has already learned of Kellhus's true nature and doesn't see him as Seswatha sees Anaxophus. But still, what you say is highly possible, and it crossed my mind too while reading that final scene. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 02 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Abyss, Commoner

Unless Kellhus' ultimate plan is beyond just stopping the No-God.

He knows, better than Moe did, that the NoGod has to be stopped. But Moe's perspective was warped by his dead end with the psuchke [sp].

Consider what the Inchoroi have to offer - immortality for one thing. And there is the suggestion in Seswatha's memories that the No-God is a created thing, or a summoned being in a constructed vessel.

I think Kellhus is going for the big win. Godhood. He knew Moe would fail because ultimately his own fear of damnation and Dunyain reasoning would cause him to fail and go the Consult route. So he took Moe out of the picture.

Kell surpassed Moe, and my guess is he's intending to use the Gnosis and whatever else he can to become even more than a prophet. Consider his comments that a One God and the No God both speak to him. he won't just stop the No-God. He'll surpass him too.


Maybe.

- Abyss, also thinks the Illuminati are spying on us all... moo hoo hah ha... view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 03 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by unJon, Auditor

Just some random speculation that I decided to post here because it is tangentially on topic.

We know that a world can be closed to the Outside. We know that inherently soulless creatures can gain a soul. What if Kellhus determines how to lose his soul. Close himself off from the wrath of the Outside. Pretty good way to avoid damnation, assuming that losing a soul doesn't mean losing one's volition in the here and now. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 03 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

An interesting proposition, for some reason when I think of it I think of the Void....and the No-God and all manner of inherent emptiness should such a thing occur. Kind of like a black hole.....

*walks away gibbering in some mad reflection* view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 04 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Noctis, Candidate

I agree that Kellhus was intending to follow the "shortest path" in removing Moenghus from the game, but I also got the feeling, in reading the meeting between Moenghus and Kellhus, that there were a couple of other considerations at work:

1. Kellhus convinced Moenghus that he (Kellhus) was insane, and at that point, Moenghus was going to try to remove him from the field (as defective Dunyain or whatever); so it was kill or be killed.

2. Kellhus also saw what would happen if Moenghus killed him and tried to do the job himself...basically, chaos, strife, and eventually, Apocalypse. And, since the death of Serwe, Kellhus does have an opinion on that; he's bought into Akka's theory that he's supposed to save the world, and backed away from the completely emotionless Dunyain way at least enough to want to stop the Apocalypse.

Maybe that means that Kellhus hasn't so much "transcended" the Dunyain (although Kellhus definitely thinks he has) as become just a teency bit more human, more emotional, and therefore actually less uber. I dunno, just a thought. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 04 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Mithfânion, Didact

Noctis

1. Kellhus convinced Moenghus that he (Kellhus) was insane, and at that point, Moenghus was going to try to remove him from the field (as defective Dunyain or whatever); so it was kill or be killed.


Hmmm. I read that scene differently. It seemed clear to me that Kellhus was relaying his story to Moenghus, and that Moenghus deduced that what Kellhus said ( which we know to be true) simply could not be. I did not get the impression that Kellhus did that deliberatly, so that he would himself be forced into a kill or be-killed situation.

BTW Abyss, does Kellhus actually cleam that God speaks to him, aside from the No-God doing so as well? view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 05 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Noctis, Candidate

yes, maybe "convince" was the wrong word to use; I don't think that Kellhus was actively trying to get Moenghus to think he was insane. That was the impression that Moenghus got, though (possibilities collapsing and all) and at that point I think Kellhus realized that Moenghus would try to eliminate him. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 20 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by xhaldur, Candidate

I didn't gather that the Dunyain were extinct. I can't quote it exactly without the book in my hand, but I'm fairly certain only the few dunyain that recieved the dream killed themselves. All the other Dunyain are still there. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 20 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Rooster, Commoner

Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone—the elder Dûnyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths beneath Ishuäl. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted.


Mith, yes he does. I don't remember the page numbers, but when Kellhus starts to speak back to Möenghus he says &quot;the God speaks to me&quot; (or something quite close) and later when they discuss the No-God he says &quot;Yes, he speaks to me as well&quot;. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 20 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Anonymous&quot;:2tzo2r77
These theories. I don't understand the concept of a Consult/Dunyain coalition. The Dunyain lived in a Utopian society. Why would they team with the Consult? Even with the little information we know of the Dunyain, we know less of the Consult. Their goals and intentions. Look at the facts. The Dunyain hid from and disregarded &quot;modern society&quot;. Just because the Consult hides doesn't mean they have the same goals. They have infiltrated the humans with skin spies. They care about what is going on. What would be the point of the partnership? As vague as the beginning of PON was, taken literally, the Dunyain no longer exist. They killed themselves because of the message Moenghus sent to them in the dream. Moengus was the last of the Dunyain. Kellhus had to take him out. Their way of life failed. Magic and religion have no place in logic. Kellhus found faith. He cried for the first time in his life. He is no longer Dunyain. The Thousandfold Thought. Something greater than nature. Delusions of Grandeur. Sucks to be crazy. Maybe you Canadians are privy to more info but I believe the Dunyain to be extinct.[/quote:2tzo2r77]

The Dunyain hardly live in a Utopian society. They removed themselves from the world in order to achieve their mission, which is to become the ultimate self-mover. A group of people who have completely thrown off the shackles of &quot;what comes before&quot; and to thereby become completely self-determining. However they have also discarded the notion of Sorcery, along with many other metaphysics that the &quot;low&quot; humans take as natural.

The Dunyain do not believe there to be any Gods, any Outside that has influence on the world of men. The Dunyain, we believe, are wrong. Kelhus himself came to conclusion that the Dunyain, should they learn more of the world, that they would ultimately side with the Consult because they would have one unifying purpose, to remove the influence of the Outside from Earwa. The Outside is a wild card variable in the Dunyain's calculations and so could not be allowed to exist if they are to achieve their mission. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 22 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by anor277, Didact

Just to add to EE's reply, there is little evidence to suggest that the Dunyain is not still functioning. Those members who were contaminated by Moenghus sorcerous sending in TDTCB commited suicide, all save Kellhus - whom the remaining Dunyain sent to assassinate the sender Moenghus. This suggests that the Dunyain want to insulate themselves from the outside world. An alliance between the Dunyain and the Consult is not at all far-fetcheed. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 22 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Dunyain are definitly still there, as anor said, it was only the ones who had been contacted by Meognhus, and thus &quot;contaminated&quot; by the outside world who commited suicide. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 23 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by dalamar the dark, Commoner

I don't think the dunyain would ally themsleves with the consult or any other non-dunyain. Of course they may lie and say they are allied with the Consult but they would really be trying to dominate them as Kellhus dominated the Holy War view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 23 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

It isn't a matter of allying with the Consult, Kelhus came to the conclusion that they would have the same goal but for different reasons. The Dunyain would want to remove the variable of the Outside from the equation, thus necessitating closing of the world by slaughtering humanity. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 28 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by dalamar the dark, Commoner

wouldn't slaughtering humanity be in direct opposition to their ultimate goal, as they would have to slaughter themselves and never have the chance to become self-moving? view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 28 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I dont think they really consider themselves part of humanity. view post


The Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? posted 28 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Meeting between Kellhus &amp; Moenghus? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

There are humans, non-men, and Inchoroi among the Consult, all of which have souls. It's been expressed on this board a few times that to close the gates to the Outside only means removing the majority of souls from Earwa, if enough are gone the Outside can no longer mess around with the world. It's a mass effect thing.

Plus as WP said, the Dunyain consider themselves above the rest of humanity anyway. view post


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