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Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Andrew, Peralogue

So the purpose of the thought appears to be achieved/on its way to being achieved, but is the cost worth it? basically ALL cishaurim destroyed?? Basically all Scarlet Spires killed? Basically All fanim destroyed? Even allowing 20 yrs till next series and a new generation of schoolmen and soldiers to fight Consult, these seem like such serious blows to the power of the 3 seas to resist the Consult that i have to wonder whether the entire plan isn't flawed. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 29 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

I don't think the Thousandfold Thought is flawed.

We must not forget that the Cishaurim are Sorcerer-priest, meaning that they are the voice of God. So long as they exist, they will war against Inrithi heaten. For unification sake, they must be destroyed so that Kellhus can create a new religion from the ashes of Inrithi and Fanimry.

As for the Scarlet Spire, they will become a minor School, just like their Headmaster feared in the 2 first books. I don't think it's a great loss since they cannot compete with the Gnosis. And Kellhus will need the Mandate and the Gnosis in the war against the Consult (second Holy war?).


Now with Moenghus, we finally learn that even the Dunyain can be wrong. Does that make the Thousandfold Thought flawed? No, he just choose the wrong Shortest Path.

Had he choosen to become a Mandati, I think it would have been Anasurimbor Moenghus who would have been the Warrior-Prophet. But since he made the error of choosing the wrong School, and, because his powers were not great, he had to pave the way so that another could take up where he had failed.

And while paving the way, he stumbled across the TFT. So the Thousandfold Thought is a result of his error.

Can he comprehend the Outside as Kellhus does? I don't think so, because he is stuck in a dead-end. All because he choose the wrong Shortest Path. He can't see beyond the choice he has made. He sees Kellhus as flawed because he will never understand some choices Kellhus has made.

I'm not sure it's clear, I may have to rethink my theory a bit <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

As for Kellhus being an agent of God, is he truly? Or does he play with people just as he played with them since the first book? Or is he beginning to believe the lies he tells others? view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 29 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Andrew, Peralogue

I kind of disagree re Moenghus. I don't think that Moenghus was the prophesied harbinger but that Kellus is. So it wouldn't have mattered if he had chosen the Mandate. Sure he would have been a hugely powerful sorceror, but he wouldn't have become the Harbinger. In order to become the Warrior Prophet, Moenghus would have had to walk the same path as Kellus did - which is impossible given that Kellus' journey resulted from Moenghus' initiative.

As for Kellus, i think that he IS an agent of the God. Even for a Dunyain, he has caught way too many breaks and i don't think this "aura" thing is a fantasy or hallucination. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 30 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Nauticus, Auditor

Why would Kellhus be the Harbinger? Moenghus did come first. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 30 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Da-krul, Auditor

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the propechy say "A Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world"

Says nothing about fighting too save it, it was Akkas beliefs that the Anasurimbor would be sent too save the world. unless I'm only remembering a fragment of the prophecy. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 30 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Da-krul&quot;:13kn2zi5
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the propechy say "A Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world"[/quote:13kn2zi5]

Yes, that's pretty much like it.

And since you can give almost any meaning to a prophecy, it could have meant something like "A Anasurimbor will return at the other side of the world" and not at the end of time...

It's why I think that any Anasurimbor Dunyain could have been the Harbringer. They would have twisted the meaning of it to fit with their purpose. Moenghus couldn't be the Harbringer because he didn't know the prophecy. But if he had, he would have used it the same way Kellhus did.

And I think that Kellhus has begun to believe his own lies. Which is why Moeghus sees him a mad and flawed. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 30 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Nauticus, Auditor

Yes. I enjoyed that exchange between Dunyain. I certainly didn't expect Kellhus to begin believing the lies he weaved. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 30 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by rycanada, Peralogue

I think his image of the no-god was a true vision. I don't think he's mad. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 30 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

It's not necessarily a matter of believeing his own lies. He did experience, let's call it revelation, when he was hung upon the tree. He does believe he was communicated with, etc. He doesn't necessarily believe everything he tells others but he does believe that he is more than the Dunyian, more than other men. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 31 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Andrew, Peralogue

well why suppose that he is nuts? Why suppose that there isn't a God who intends to save the world? Why suppose that any Anasurimbor could usurp the prophecy and become the 'prophesied' one?
Kellus' vision of the No God is exactly consistent with what Achamian sees in his dreams. As for the prophecy, i mean, Celmomas said it for a reason presumably. Why suppose that it was a purely random prophesy which could have all sorts of possible meanings other than what it is commonly understood as, namely that an Anasurimbor would return when the no-god next appears? view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 31 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

Why suppose that there is a God who intends to save the world? Why suppose that Kellhus, as a Dunyain, hasn't twisted the prophecy for his own purpose?

We're all theorizing here. And as long as Scott doesn't tell us if we're right or wrong, well, nobody will have the good answer.

I must admit that Kellhus may not be beginning to believe his lies. He may begins to believe he is something more than Dunyain.

I think of the Viramsata and Pirvirsut, as Moenghus explained to Kelhus : Spin lies and rumors about a person, and that person must act as if what was said was real.

So, in this case, Kellhus spins rumors that he is the Latter-Latter Prophet. Act accordingly so that everyone believe him. But as long as he acts, it's all just lies, because he doesn't believe it. Until he, himself, begins to believe that he is a prophet, it will not be true.

So, at the end of TTT, we have a Kellhus who believes he is godsent. That he believes make it true in the eyes of everyone.

But does that make him an agent of gods?
And because he believes, as much as everyone believe, that he is godsent, does that me it truer in the eyes of the gods?
Or is he a disillusioned as everyone else?

I think only Scott hold the key <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Cu Roi, Candidate

I would have to say that the TTT is not, in fact flawed. If it is simply the method(s) through which one would master and unite the powers of the Three Seas, then it worked.

If in fact Moenghus did come to the conclusions Khellus did regarding the ultimate position the Dunyain would take concerning the sealing of the world. He would still have needed to unite the the forces of humanity in order to lead them to the slaughter. Also, if the Inchoroi were still veiwed as a threat to the Dunyain and the pursuit of the Absolute, a Second Apocalypse would be an ideal vehicle to seal the world while weakening/destroying the Consult/Inchoroi.

Khellus is opposed to the sealing of the world, yet still used The Thousandfold Thought to unite humanity in order to stop the Inchoroi's attempts to foil their own damnation.

As a strategy the Thousandfold Thought has proven itself sound. At least it seems that way at the end of the novel since Khellus has been crowned the Aspect-Emperor. He rules all of humanity, and can do as he wills, whatever his ends.

That's how I have apprehended the situation at least. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Tol h'Eddes&quot;:2mn7dtyr
But since he made the error of choosing the wrong School...[/quote:2mn7dtyr]

That was one of the great things in the book for me, the total chance of being with the Scylvendi and getting swazond that ended up with him skirting the Empire and going to the Fanim, which of course resulted in the Psûkhe being the only sorcery available to him, making him stunted in his power in more ways than one, thus necessitating he call his son...

Wheels within wheels. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 24 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Andrew, Peralogue

Cu Roi -- i wasn't questioning whether the Thought succeeded in crowning Kellus Lord of 3 seas. the question i have is, Moenghus presumably has no idea of when the 2nd apocalypse is going to land. He has had access to those skin spies all these years, so he may have some knowledge, but surely those critters are not privy to their masters deepest secrets. So he embarks on these steps to unite the world for the purpose of fighting the common enemy - the series of steps are the thousand fold thought. But in the end you have basically destroyed the Cishaurim, destroyed the Scarlet spires, destroyed the majority of the army of the most powerful nation in earwa (the fanim) and vastly weakened the Inrithi nations as well. For all we know though, the Consult forces could be marching from the north even as Shimea falls. What good the united 3 seas if there is little time to consolidate power and sow the seeds of unity among the nations? what good if no new generation of schoolmen will have time to rise up and defend humanity? The only way the thousand fold thought can help rather than hinder is if the consult are still decades from being ready to attack. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 25 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Cu Roi, Candidate

You have to keep in mind that Moenghus spent years collecting intelligence on the Consult, and consequently years meditating on that knowledge. Success, as he said, lay at the end of an incredibly narrow path. One only a fully trained Dunyain, invested with all the worldly power attainable, could hope to travel. Like he stated, while it was a longshot, inaction was the course that held absolute failure. I'm fairly sure the consequences of "civil" war were accounted for.

The Thought's purpose was to unite the 3 seas. Unity is far more important than numbers.

To quote Sun Tzu:
"A united nation is strong.
A divided nation is weak.
A united army is strong.
A divided army is weak.
A united force is strong.
A divided force is weak.
United men are strong.
Divided men are weak."

Also:"Unity works because it enables you to win every battle you fight."

Think of when Cnaiur describes the Scylvendi mode of war to Khellus. All that talk of heart, cohesion, and the "ligaments of war". It's such unity that made the Spartans such a potent force. The Holy War has honed the different forces and culled them. Achamian reflected that being broken was an incredibly transformative process. "Something new had arisen from the collective forge of thier suffering, something hard and something sharp."

This military force Khellus is left with after taking Shimeh, is one of harden veterans. It is also very likely to be large even now. It will form the iron heart around which to train a force to oppose the Consult.

If you notice in the glossary, the Inchoroi were soundly defeated when a focused resistance acted against them. The Apocalypse entry states several times that the nations of men squandered their opportunies to ally against the Consult. Reconciliation is always said to have come too late.

I think the biggest threat to the world of men is now the rift between Achamian &amp; Kellhus. It too closely resembles the relationship between Seswatha and Celmomas.

Foreshadowing anyone? view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 25 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Darlan Laerdon, Commoner

One thing I think is being overlooked is that while the scarlet spires and cishaurim are almost completely destroyed, Kellhus has the support of the mandate, which I would say is worth sacrificing both of the other schools. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 24 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Dexious, Candidate

I believed that was the Consult's plan the whole time. Influencing the Three Seas to destroy themselves then attack with full force. I pegged Maithanet as the No-God until it was revealed who he was. Wrong guess I guess. It also seems the Consult is ready yet.

Kellhus has big job ahead of him in uniting the Three Seas but it looks like he has the right connections to do so. Most of his job is done. The Thousandfold Thought may prove that Kellhus is flawed, not the story. Maybe he didn't see everything that came before. He took the shortest path to complete his mission to kill Moenghus. Did he understand how the shortest path might affect the future? What's his new plan? The shortest path to the Apocolypse? Achamian better find The Heron Spear and quick (twenty years quick).

I believe Moenghus was right. He is loosing it. I think Kellhus &quot;found&quot; God when he was tied up with Serwe. He discovered The Thousandfold Thought and has been broken emotionally. He cried for the first time. I think he prayed for the first time too. Not to mention his delusions of grandeur. AE looks like it's shaping up to be another fun read.

Quick question to all: Do you think Achamian will ever kneel to Kellhus?

I hope not. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 24 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Xray the Enforcer, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Dexious&quot;:3b8hk75k

Quick question to all: Do you think Achamian will ever kneel to Kellhus?

I hope not.[/quote:3b8hk75k]

If so, I'm hoping they'll have to knee-cap him in order for it to happen. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 24 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Unfortunately, we all know that that will not be the case. The Whore (of Fate) has a way of degrading him for the greater good. Circumstance will compel him to &quot;treat&quot; with Kellhus again, and prudence and the big picture will require him to do it as a servant instead of as the savior he is meant to be (and will be); remember Seswatha, who was no less than the world's savior the first time around was in the same position. He never got any recognition for all he did and yet he's the only reason Earwa continues to spin. Achamian will have to kneel subserviantly before Kellhus to stand defiantly against Tsurumah. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 25 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

Why shouldn't Achamian kneel to Kellhus? His (A's) penultimate action was to betray Kellhus to the Consult, and for what? Just because Kellhus took Achamian's girlfriend, whom he (A) did not properly appreciate. Surely it's time for Achamian to grow up, he is old enough. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 25 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Why shouldn't Achamian kneel to Kellhus? His (A's) penultimate action was to betray Kellhus to the Consult, and for what? Just because Kellhus took Achamian's girlfriend, whom he (A) did not properly appreciate. Surely it's time for Achamian to grow up, he is old enough.



Didn't properly appreciate her,are you kidding me how did he not appreciate her? view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 25 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Cu Roi, Candidate

It's true that Achamian did not fully appreciate Esmi, by his own admisson. Yet Esmi commited the same transgression in not fully understanding Akka. They are both guilty of the same thoughtlessness. In a way, Kellhus is the only reason they now appreciate each other's breadth &amp; depth.

I am reminded of this passage:

&quot;Those of us who survived will always be bewildered when we recall his arrival. And not just because he was so different then. In a strange sense he never changed. We changed. If he seems so different to us now, it is because he was the figure that changed the ground.&quot; -Drusas Achamian, Compendium of the First Holy War view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 25 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

They were both guilty. Thats why I said what i did becaue to say that Akka didn't appreciate Esmi would be foolish unless you brought Esmi's naivete into the picture. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 26 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:nke1da1m
Why shouldn't Achamian kneel to Kellhus? His (A's) penultimate action was to betray Kellhus to the Consult, and for what? Just because Kellhus took Achamian's girlfriend, whom he (A) did not properly appreciate. Surely it's time for Achamian to grow up, he is old enough.



Didn't properly appreciate her,are you kidding me how did he not appreciate her?[/quote:nke1da1m]

A variety of reasons, this list could be expanded (i) by shagging Serwe, (ii) by putting his school and his mission no.1, (iii) by periodically abandoning her, (iv) by not marrying her, and (v) worst of all, by not letting her go. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 26 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

1.) i would say it was more of Serwe shagging Akka. 2.) If he had put his school at number 1 he would have told them about Kellhus. 3.) Theres so many ways i could argue this one im not. 4.) Honestly who would have married him i doubt a priest would do it and I would call what they had a marriage i dont think someone needs to tell you that your married. 5.) Would you have let her go if you loved her? view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 26 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:eejclq4b
1.) i would say it was more of Serwe shagging Akka. 2.) If he had put his school at number 1 he would have told them about Kellhus. 3.) Theres so many ways i could argue this one im not. 4.) Honestly who would have married him i doubt a priest would do it and I would call what they had a marriage i dont think someone needs to tell you that your married. 5.) Would you have let her go if you loved her?[/quote:eejclq4b]

@WP, I don't really want to argue either, but you did ask for reasons why Achamian is not entirely blameless for his predicament, Esmenet was always no.2 or no. 3 on his list of priorities - if you want or don't want to provide excuses for him that is fine by me. Just regarding (i), I do think that Achamian got off very easy regarding Serwe - the &quot;woman tempted me&quot; is of course a time-honoured excuse, but I am surprised that another woman (Esmenet) accepted it - I wouldn't accept it and I am not even a woman. As for your last question, I do hope I would love someone enough to leave her alone if she had made her decision to be in another relationship. To finish I am sure I am not the only person on these boards to think Achamian is behaving like an adolescent. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 27 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Yah hes definitely acting like an adolescent. *sarcasm* Trying to save the world and do whats right at the same time is very childish. Id argue more but i dont want to start a war where I post a poll on who thinks Akka is behaving like an adolescent. view post


Thousand fold thought ultimately flawed? posted 27 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThousand fold thought ultimately flawed? by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:30ta8pjj
.................*sarcasm* Trying to save the world and do whats right at the same time is very childish..............[/quote:30ta8pjj]

I agree that Achamian's betrayal of Kellhus, to members of that organisation which was also Achamian's mortal, age-old enemy, was not childish. It was vindictive. view post


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