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Glad to see we have this forum posted 17 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Entropic_existence, Moderator

So, first off. Wow. TTT was truly amazing. So, since we know that Maith' is Moenghus' son he is 1/2 Dunyain in the sense of breeding/genetics. Obviously he has limited potential (Moenghus himself said this) but also, what was the environment of his training? I would think that the environment would have had a rather large impact on this as well.

One of my personal favourites is when Kelhus uses two inutterals to transform a Cant of Calling into a means of teleportation, and how he employed that in an amazing way to defeat the Cisharuim almost single handedly. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 18 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Nauticus, Auditor

I was impressed by the book. The battle scene was amazing - and it had one of the best battles of sorcery I've read thus far. I was a touch saddened by the death of Emperor Ikurei Conphas I - he was one of my favorite characters.

But yes, learning that Moenghus is Maithanet's father... and that Moenghus is also Mallahet, was quite interesting. And Cnaiur's confrontation with Moenghus was unexpected. I love how Cnaiur collapsed into insanity. Completely. Did Cnaiur survive? Or did he die?

So, let me just double-check something. Are the Consult and Inchorori the same thing?

I've got to admit. I was shocked at Drusas Achamian's actions at the end there. Can't wait to see his character in The Aspect-Emperor. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 18 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Twayleph, Auditor

Yes, the sorcerous battle was awesome - nothing like a full clash of the two most powerful Schools. I'm not entirely clear on this - apart from Iyokus, did many of the Scarlet Spires Schoolmen survive or is it reduced to a Minor School ?

I was also very surprised to learn who - and what - Maithanet really is. I was a little disappointed, though, to learn that for all the mystery and power surrounding him, he's nothing more than a Dûnyain tool. Also very curious of what was his environment - was he secreted into the obscurity of the Nonmen Mansion to be raised exclusively by Moënghus or was he left in the care of the Cishaurim while Moënghus preoccupied himself with TTT?

Nauticus : the Consult isn't the same thing as the Inchoroi. The Inchoroi are an alien race, an invader upon Eärwa that was all but wiped out by the Nonmen. The Consult, on the other hand, is an assembly of powerful servants of the No-God. Though the No-God was originally an Ichoroi weapon, the Consult itself is made up of Erratic Nonmen, Men (of the School of Maengedda) and the last two surviving Ichoroi. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 18 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Nauticus, Auditor

Ah, okay.

As far as the Scarlet Spires go, I'm not sure if any of them survived at all. I know Eleazeras - the Grandmaster - died. When it was all said and done, Kellhus killed the last five Cishaurim. So I believe that the Scarlet Spires - at least, those who marched on Shimeh - died. I think the Scarlet Spires is now a minor school, if it's a school at all. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 18 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Entropic_existence, Moderator

One of the most interesting things is that Kelhus now has the Mandate firmly at his side, as well as the Thousand Temples. Plus Sorcery is now no longer a sin in the eyes of the Inrithi. It will be very interesting to see how this will all play out.

I think one of the great benefits of how Scott has chosen to lay out this tale is that when next we visit Earwa in The Aspect-Emperor, roughly twenty years will have elapsed since the end of The Thousandfold Thought.

I don't say Maithanet as a Dunyain tool, well... he was in a way but I think he is at least semi-cognisant of his origins, given that he could see the Skin Spies as well, Moenghus must have given him some semblance of training I believe. Kelhus can no longer really be described as simply a Dunyain monk. His journey through the outside world has fundamentally shaped him to the point where not everything is merely superstition. Sorcery and the Outside do exist, as do Agents of the Outside. He has become more. I think this has taken him further down the road towards the Dunyain's ultimate goal. Will the Dunyain re-enter the picture down the road? I hope so. It is an exciting yet terrible idea all at the same time. Imagine if all of the Few among the Dunyain were trained as Gnostic Sorcerors by Kelhus. A group of Philosopher-Sorceror-Monks, it would almost be as scary as the Consult and the No-God in some ways. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Guess we'll just wait and see. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 20 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Nauticus, Auditor

Conphas was my favorite, too.

I think the trilogy ended well. The Prince of Nothing was about 'merely' the Holy War. The Holy War ended, but something bigger is happening.

One can only assume that it'll be carried on in The Aspect-Emperor. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 20 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, Scott had stated a few times (at least in the Ask the Author board) that The Prince of Nothing covers the Second Holy War. The Aspect Emperor will jump ahead twenty years to the opening of the Second Apocalypse (I believe). So in the next books, whenever they come, we will see more of the Consult, the Inchoroi, and the No-God. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 20 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Nauticus, Auditor

I have a question about TTT.

Did Cnaiur live or die? His 'lover', Moenghus, dies and he passes out and/or dies. Thats all that we hear from him.

Plus, if he does die, he'd probably be the first character to not be accompanied by 'Dead came swirling down' description corosponding with his death. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 21 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Twayleph, Auditor

I'm not sure about Cnaiür's fate, either. My instinct is that he survived, but I haven't seen anything that supports or contradicts that.

if he does die, he'd probably be the first character to not be accompanied by 'Dea*th came swirling down'


What about Serwë ? And...and...well, yeah, Scott does seem to like that phrase a lot <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I wonder how many times we'll see it in the Aspect-Emperor, what will all the murders and betrayals and massacres any good Apocalypse comprises <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 21 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Nauticus, Auditor

Haha I can picture it now.

"And the death, collectively, comes swirling down." view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 21 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Spamoram, Candidate

Pretty sure Cnaiur survived.

The "death came swirling down" phrase kept being repeated was a literary device to hammer in the fact that death and pain was all around.

An example of this would be the "I have a dream" speech by Martin Luther King Jr.


Twayleph, do you really want the Dunyain to get the secret of the gnosis? Especially after Kellhus kills Moenghus because he is Dunyain and is therefore damned as well. Damned to the point that his goal would eventually allign with that of the Consult. Destruction of the human race. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 21 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Twayleph, Auditor

Spamoram, I think you're confusing me with Entropic Existence regarding giving the Gnosis to the Dûnyain <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Also, I appreciated the metaphorical power of the "death came swirling down" phrase the first time I'd read it, I just think over all the times it got repeated over the three novels, the phrase lost its meaning and became more of an anecdote. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 21 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, Iw as the one who made the comment about the Dunyain getting the Gnosis. I also said it would be a damned frightening thing <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Not necessarily good, just interesting. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 24 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Someone will have to clarify this for me: the Inchoroi wanted to destroy humans &amp; non men to 'seal the world' ?! Are we talking about a physical phenomenon or a philosophical concept ?

-----


Some observations about TTT:


- the pacing was not balanced: too much ruminations in the first part for the quickened rythm that followed in the last part;

- though I understand the necessity to set the stage for the next book I felt that Comphas was definately short changed. *scowls*;

- similarly the unexplained falling in line of the entire Mandate behind Khellus was annoying. Entirely too much time was wasted with Achamian's redundant feelings for the whore and Cnaiurs madness while not enough was devoted to fleshing out other sub plots;

- by the end of TTT it seem to me Khellus has grown so much - so fast - that the Consult does't look very threatening anymore. One can only imagine what he will be after 20 years of learning/practicing/improvising on the Gnosis... If he trains more like him - why the Second Apocalypse will be a walk in the park. And that's clumsy storytelling to deflate your main villain so fast.

- Overall this last book was less satisfying than expected.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 24 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Nauticus, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Grallon&quot;:2eqiah5y
Someone will have to clarify this for me: the Inchoroi wanted to destroy humans &amp; non men to 'seal the world' ?! Are we talking about a physical phenomenon or a philosophical concept ?[/quote:2eqiah5y]
I think it's philosophical - it's their version of a religion. They're saving their souls from being damned.

Quote: &quot;Grallon&quot;:2eqiah5y
Some observations about TTT:


- the pacing was not balanced: too much ruminations in the first part for the quickened rythm that followed in the last part;
[/quote:2eqiah5y]
I didn't mind that. The beginning built the tension of the forthcoming battle, the meeting, and the climax. What else could have happened at the beginning? The Fanim were retreating...

Quote: &quot;Grallon&quot;:2eqiah5y
Some observations about TTT:


- though I understand the necessity to set the stage for the next book I felt that Comphas was definately short changed. *scowls*;

[/quote:2eqiah5y]
I was definately a fan of Conphas, and I hoped he was going to become the Aspect-Emperor. But I can't blame Bakker for killing him.

Quote: &quot;Grallon&quot;:2eqiah5y
Some observations about TTT:


- similarly the unexplained falling in line of the entire Mandate behind Khellus was annoying. Entirely too much time was wasted with Achamian's redundant feelings for the whore and Cnaiurs madness while not enough was devoted to fleshing out other sub plots;
[/quote:2eqiah5y]
Unexplained? When Achamian was talking to Nautzera, he told the Mandate, "Wait until you meet him" or something with the same point. The Mandate were cautious about Kellhus, but they met him and we know the results. I don't know what was so unexplained about it.

And which subplots did you want more time fleshing out?

Quote: &quot;Grallon&quot;:2eqiah5y
Some observations about TTT:


- by the end of TTT it seem to me Khellus has grown so much - so fast - that the Consult does't look very threatening anymore. One can only imagine what he will be after 20 years of learning/practicing/improvising on the Gnosis... If he trains more like him - why the Second Apocalypse will be a walk in the park. And that's clumsy storytelling to deflate your main villain so fast.
[/quote:2eqiah5y]
I'm not sure. I don't know if it's clumsy storytelling, as it might have been intentional. But I don't see the Consult any less of a threat. Yes, Kellhus is powerful, but we haven't seen any of the incarnations of the Tekne (Old Science). Keep in mind, the No-God will probably be resurrected, and the Heron Spear is missing. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 24 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Nauticus&quot;:3gdrqluy
...

I'm not sure. I don't know if it's clumsy storytelling, as it might have been intentional. But I don't see the Consult any less of a threat. Yes, Kellhus is powerful, but we haven't seen any of the incarnations of the Tekne (Old Science). Keep in mind, the No-God will probably be resurrected, and the Heron Spear is missing.[/quote:3gdrqluy]


During the course of 2 books we heard about the dread Inchoroi; about how the world went through an apocalypse, about the slaughter of peoples and the slaughter of nations... Here we see Khellus facing down an Old Name, killing skin spys at will. And with his mastery of the Gnosis (and whatever new inventions he'll come up with over the next 20 years - I don't see what could stop him). The No-God ? I don't know what it is - but by the descriptions it looks like some sort of self aware machine. Again with the expended Gnosis I don't see how much trouble it could be. Anything with a physical form can be destroyed with the application of enough energy.

I don't know it just seem khellus has been turned into a god - and I dislike the implications.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Twayleph, Auditor

I share some of Grallon's disappointments regarding TTT, especially how much ink was devoted describing Cnaiür's madness. I didn't particularly like these passages, and I think a lot more time could've been devoted to the events at the end of the book - like how Maithanet and the Mandate came to serve Khellus.

The issue of why the Consult wants to destroy Men and Nonmen, was a metaphysical issue. Men (and probably Nonmen too) are portals through which the Outside can take expression into the world. As long as Men exist, the Gods will have influence over Eärwa and its souls, which means that some souls will be Redeemed and some others will be Damned. The more you kill Men, the less influence the Outside has over the world, until one day they become so remote that the world is "sealed" - a state described by Khellus as when "The Gods howl like wolves at silent gates" If (when?) that happens, then the possibilities of Redemption and Damnation no longer exist and all souls fall into Oblivion upon death. This is the ultimate goal of the Consult.

The Inchoroi know themselves damned - the topoi, the glimpse into the Outside, that exists in Golgotterath leaves little ambiguity as to what their after-life fate is. As for the Men, well at first they were sorcerers of the Maengedda and as we know in the pre-Khellus era everyone believed sorcerers were damned. After all the crimes they've commited throughout the millenia, they certainly are now. But if they seal the world, they won't have to suffer the eternal consequences of their actions.

Concerning Khellus' rise to power, I think you're writing off the Consult far too quickly. Yes, he did face an Old Name and survived, but remember that for a while he utterly lost control of Legion, which is a pretty impressive feat, and anyway both Khellus and Aurang thought this fight a diversion. Consider also that, if Achamian is to be believed, there are hundreds of times the numbers of Sranc there were at the time of the First Apocalypse, and the High North, the most powerful civilization of that time, lost. And regarding your comment that Khellus could destroy anything physical now, including the No-God...what ? The physical descriptions of the No-God are more impressive than any other villain's depiction I've ever read of. Even if it weren't for the fact that the No-God is immune to sorcery (remember the Chorae embedded in its Carapace?), it still wouldn't be a piece of cake to destroy - far from it. The Heron Spear, the only known means of destroying it, is now lost...no, I don't think the Consult is beaten yet, and the Three-Seas' chances are still low enough for the Second Apocalypse to be very threatening, in my opinion. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:1r0fe5yz
...

The issue of why the Consult wants to destroy Men and Nonmen, was a metaphysical issue. Men (and probably Nonmen too) are portals through which the Outside can take expression into the world. As long as Men exist, the Gods will have influence over Eärwa and its souls, which means that some souls will be Redeemed and some others will be Damned. The more you kill Men, the less influence the Outside has over the world, until one day they become so remote that the world is "sealed" - a state described by Khellus as when "The Gods howl like wolves at silent gates" If (when?) that happens, then the possibilities of Redemption and Damnation no longer exist and all souls fall into Oblivion upon death. This is the ultimate goal of the Consult.

The Inchoroi know themselves damned - the topoi, the glimpse into the Outside, that exists in Golgotterath leaves little ambiguity as to what their after-life fate is. As for the Men, well at first they were sorcerers of the Maengedda and as we know in the pre-Khellus era everyone believed sorcerers were damned. After all the crimes they've commited throughout the millenia, they certainly are now. But if they seal the world, they won't have to suffer the eternal consequences of their actions.
[/quote:1r0fe5yz]


Scott Bakker is apparently a student of philosophy and it shows. All this metaphysical claptrap is absurd. Why would aliens be bound by moral considerations when they've never burdened themselves with such in the past ? Look no further than the Dunyein themselves - they are totally amoral. And damnation is only possible when you have a moral compass to measure yourself against. Besides the assumption that there are gods is annoying.

The way I see it the Inchoroi were/are entirely devoted to the Teknhe (genetics and regular science - in fact they're Bakker's Tleilaxus - as the Dunyein are his Bene Gesserit/Mentats) - which makes them materialists. So for them to entertain an existantial crisis is simply implausible.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by zarathustra, Peralogue

I think Kellhus has become too powerful by the end of TTT as Grallon says his mastery of the Gnosis will be immense in twenty years. He also seems now to be invulnerable to Chorea if I read correctly the battle he has with the Cishaurim.
It seems clear that he has the beating of the two remaining Inchori though the No-God will still remain a problem. Check out also a Consult member called Shaenora(sic?) who will no doubt cause some problems in Aspect Emperor.
However the Three Seas itself seems in less good shape. The Holy War will have all but destoyed all active armies in the region. Plus the two most powerful schools have been devastated/destroyed. This would leave all nations vulnerable to being overrun by Sranc. Khellus would have to immedaitely start trainning all the Three Seas children for war.
It would be my guess that Aspect Emperor will begin with Kellhus hard pressed and needing to go to Zeum to persuade them to lend their armies in support. But then he can probably teleport himself there... view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;zarathustra&quot;:1ind63ur
...

However the Three Seas itself seems in less good shape. The Holy War will have all but destoyed all active armies in the region. Plus the two most powerful schools have been devastated/destroyed. This would leave all nations vulnerable to being overrun by Sranc. Khellus would have to immedaitely start trainning all the Three Seas children for war. It would be my guess that Aspect Emperor will begin with Kellhus hard pressed and needing to go to Zeum to persuade them to lend their armies in support. But then he can probably teleport himself there...[/quote:1ind63ur]


Khellus' goal is clearly to harness the Three Seas completely under his control. No doubt he'll resurrect the old Empire and probably merge it with the Thousand Temple - creating, in effect, a theocracy. The surviving schools will likely be absorbed by the Mandate.

There's also the Dunyein themselves to consider. We already know Khellus sees them as limited - but still useful. Yet I don't see how he could go back there and convince them to work for him. I suppose he could force them now that he has the Gnosis... On the other hand the Consult is actively looking for them so perhaps they will find Ishual first and use them - or destroy them...

And there's Achamian whom we know survive since he writes the Chronicles of the Holy War (interestingly one of the last entry of his chronicles mention he has to watch what he writes ... under surveillance I guess). Besides being a chronicler I can't see what kind of meaningful role he might have in the future. He's now considered an heretic and an outcast wizard. Unless Bakker tries to spin some more threads with the whore ? I hope not - this was getting tedious already by the end of The Warrior Prophet.

One unknown is the Scylvendi. Since Cnaiur survived my guess is he'll federate the remnants of his people and oppose the new God-Emperor. Perhaps with Achamian' help.

We shall see.



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Entropic_existence, Moderator

A few things to reply to:

Yes Scott is a student of Philosophy, he was/is persuing a Ph.D in the subject. The Metaphysics of the world, in my opinion, are very well thought out and interwoven with some of the more "traditional" conventions of fantasy. (i.e. gods, etc)

On Kellhus: Yes, Kellhus killed skin-spies willy-nilly. Skin Spies are ultimately limited creations of the Consult, they are good weapons but when you can see them for exactly what they are their prime advantage, hiding in plain sight, is gone.

Kellhus did not go "toe-to-toe" with an Old Name. Aurang was inhabiting a shell at the time, as Achamian warned Kellhus Aurang was only capable of using Glamors, etc while inhabiting that shell and look at what he still managed to do. His Glamors and tricks managed to have Kelhus briefly lose control of Legion. I think that is a pretty impressive feat. Even when Aurang is inhabiting the Synthese as a shell he is no where near his full power. Wait until he goes up against the Inchoroi in his true form. They both have the Gnosis, obviously Kellhus appears to be able to master it in a different direction with his superior analytical mind but I'm still not convinces he is going to be utterly invincible.

I'll have to re-read that final battle against the Cishaurim but I don't recollect seeing anything to suggest he was immune to Chorae.

A few other things:

-The Ancient North had several powerful Gnostic Schools. Will the Mandate absorb the other schools or otherwise teach the Gnosis to existing Angagic Sorcerors? Maybe but this isn't a given by any means.

-Unified under the Aspect-Emperor the Three-Sea's will probably be better unified militarily for the Second Apocalypse than the Ancient North was during the first, but remember Sranc control half of a continent and during the First Apocalypse the No-God's call brought in the bulk of the Sranc from elsewhere in the world. I think the Consult will have a truly massive army to put on the field when the time comes. Sranc will darken the horizons and carpet the fields so to speak. Plus we have Bashrag and Wracu (although there apparently aren't very many Wracu left) to factor in as well as the Consult Generals (Gnostic Sorcerors), the Non-men Erratics, and the two surviving Inchoroi as well as whatever other creations they come up with. (I'm still expecting more than one surprise.)

-The Scylvendi are a wild card. They may be men but they fought under the banner of the Consult and the No-God during the First Apocalypse. Lokung is the No-God, so will they side with their dead but ressurected God this time around as well? I have a feeling they will. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:1ltgal2n
A few things to reply to:

Yes Scott is a student of Philosophy, he was/is persuing a Ph.D in the subject. The Metaphysics of the world, in my opinion, are very well thought out and interwoven with some of the more "traditional" conventions of fantasy. (i.e. gods, etc)...[/quote:1ltgal2n]


I didn't say the cosmology wasn't coherent or plausible from Earwa's inhabitants point of view. But this is a primitive world whose understanding of the universe is limited. My point was that it isn't credible for the Inchoroi, who are amoral materialists through &amp; through, to buy in all this cosmology. They *are* from the outside - they know better. Why would they start fearing for their souls just because they landed on that particular world ?!


G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Grallon&quot;:1pomx2sn

I didn't say the cosmology wasn't coherent or plausible from Earwa's inhabitants point of view. But this is a primitive world whose understanding of the universe is limited. My point was that it isn't credible for the Inchoroi, who are amoral materialists through &amp; through, to buy in all this cosmology. They *are* from the outside - they know better. Why would they start fearing for their souls just because they landed on that particular world ?!
G.[/quote:1pomx2sn]

The idea that led to the first Apocalypse, about Redemption of the Soul by sealing off the world from the Outside, was that of the Mengaeda (sp?), the Gnostic School of Human Sorcerors who would become the bulk of the Consult.

While Earwa may be primitive in many cases, I think their understanding of the way things work is relatively sound. Perhaps it is a case where belief shapes reality. We do know their are Agencies in the Outside who will prey upon or Redeeem mortal souls when those souls pass to the Outside. I'm not sure if the Inchoroi fear for their own souls, I'll have to go back through TTT on a more thorough re-read for that or perhaps ask Scott in the Q&amp;A section of the forum, or whether it was simply their knowledge that led to the Consults ideas.

The Inchoroi definitly have a better understanding of the Outside and the way things work, perhaps, if the Inchoroi do fear for their souls it is because they know that be coming to Earwa they are subject to the same rules. While they are in a sense amoral (I don't really think they are amoral their world view/morality is just totally alien to ours), and they know that souls are subject to the Agencies of the Outside, they would do what they can to prevent damnation.

From what I have understood there are essentially three things that can happen when you die:

1)Your Soul fades into Oblivion.
2)You are "damned", and your Soul taken to be eternally tormented by the crueler forces of the Outside
3)You are Redeemed. One of the Benign Agencies of the Outside takes your Soul under it's protection.

If we assume these are all very real cases, which it is my understanding that they are, and that the Inchoroi have souls (they work Sorcery so they must have Souls) then upon their deaths, when their Souls again pass into the Outside, they are subject to the same rules as everyone else.

They hope for Oblivion because there is no chance for Redemption in the conventional sense. They passed through the Outside in some sort of craft for lack of a better word so I do not think they are native Agencies of the Outside, they simply travelled through it.

<!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Anyway thats my take on the whole thing from what I read, that was sort of rambling anf incoherent in parts but that is what happens when I write as I am thinking. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 25 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:2fm2wc7q
...

They hope for Oblivion because there is no chance for Redemption in the conventional sense. They passed through the Outside in some sort of craft for lack of a better word so I do not think they are native Agencies of the Outside, they simply travelled through it.

[/quote:2fm2wc7q]


Oh well if there are 'real' deities involved...

I understood the Outside to be a simple misrepresentation by the humans of Earwa - much like our own heliocentric view before Galileo. And I recall a discussion between Achamian and Esmenet about this topic where he told her the non-men beleived the stars to be other suns far away (which they are) instead of holes to the 'Outside'. And so I assumed that with that and aliens woven into the story the rest was mere superstition.

A materialist' point of view as it were <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->



G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 26 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well, even the Non-men believe in the Outside and the Agencies that reside there, so I do think that the cosmology is real <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> At least with the way Scott has talked on the Q&amp;A forum I have no reason to doubt it anyway. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Andrew, Peralogue

Read a bunch of the posts and wanted to throw in 2 cents...

Grallon
There most definitely IS an outside. There is no basis whatsoever to say that the Inchoroi are 'amoral materialists' and don't believe in the Outside and the ultimate reality of eternal damnation vs. salvation. They practice MAGIC!!! The existence of magic absolutely disproves any materialistic worldview. Further, there is no basis for asserting that they do not see their actions as they are. Indeed, they revel and exult in depravity, anguish and horror. Their entire project of extermination is for the purpose of saving their souls from eternal damnation. i don't see how this can even be a question. It is fully dealt with in the book and actually provides a plausible basis for the Inchoroi/Consult quest to exterminate humanity. Unlike the usual fantasy novel where some dark lord just wants to destroy everything because he/she/it is a dark lord. I don't see what else could have lured the Maengecca to resume the work of the Inchoroi. Incidentally, Look for Iyokus to join the ranks of the Consult. He would definitely destroy all humanity to achieve the goal of saving his soul from damnation.

The possibility of damnation/salvation is further confirmed in the sequence from Warrior Prophet when Iyokus first summons a demon with the Daimos. Prior to that he had never summoned a demon and the demon said, (in effect), 'do you know what you've done, now you are damned etc.etc.'. Iyokus' response was that he didn't care as he was damned in any event as a sorceror.

The question of Gods etc. in the world of earwa is similarly obvious. even if you accept that life, love, joy, etc. can be explained by purely material causes, how in the world can magic exist without a God or something essentially analogous? Atoms and molecules that respond to certain words spoken and unspoken according to purely natural phenomenon that evolved over a billion years?? don't think so...

Conphas short changed?? how many times did he survive almost certain death only to survive improbably? His death has been assured for a long time. how could Kellus permit him to survive? His survival would be a standing rebuke to Kellus' supremecy. If not the sword of Saubon, then the sword of Kellus.


Someone mentioned Kellus having the next 20 yrs to train the remaining Dunyain in the Gnosis. This would never happen. You have to consider why he stabbed his father. Because his father remained MERELY a Dunyain. Ultimately (as has been discussed elsewhere on this board) the Dunyain are no better than the Inchoroi/consult. Ultimately the Dunyain will pay eternally for their sin. Ultimately the use people solely for their own purposes. Consider their treatment of 'defectives' etc. They use men for their own ends utterly callously. Kellus foresaw that ultimately Moenghus would have become a consult agent because Moenghus would be compelled by logic to accept the Consult mission as his own. Dunyain logic would grasp that ultimately only the Consult's mission is compatible with the personal interests of each Dunyain.

Entropic existence has the correct line on the so called show-down with Aurang. Consider also that the Inchoroi have other magics at their disposal (recall comment about how easy it was to walk between wards of another metaphysic or something like that when Esmi was possessed).

Re Kellus &amp; Chorae - no not invulnerable. Just singularly adept at catching arrows and devising means of evading being stuck by a Chorae.

Re Mandate acceptance of Kellus: we don't know what happened between Akka being carried off and his return. Any mandate desire to control Kellus will have been swiftly disarmed by his gnostic power/dunyain abilities. I'm sure he would have no difficilty handling them. consider if you were them and 1st faced with revelation of skin spy among you, and then faced with Kellus' mastery of the gnosis in a matter of months. think you aren't going to change your tune???

my question for you all:notwithstanding what i said re Iyokus joining the consult, is there any plausible explanation for Achamian's survival other than Iyokus' death???

This was an awesome book for me. I wouldnt' say that i liked it more than the other 2 but definitely as much. Pacing of 1st part didn't feel slow to me at all. However, neither did pacing of 1st part of Darkness that Comes Before, and many have complained that the pacing of that was slow.


My only complaints: Definitely agree that "death came swirling down" usage was massively excessive and seriously annoying in 2nd half of book. Also i thought there was too much discussion about how Kellus becomes the Ground for those around him etc. That concept is well established and i thought there was a bit much pushing of it. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:v7zzo19w
...The existence of magic absolutely disproves any materialistic worldview.[/quote:v7zzo19w]


Don't be absurd. Genetic mutations enabling energy channeling is far more plausible then deities &amp; other religious nonsense.

Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:v7zzo19w
... i don't see how this can even be a question. It is fully dealt with in the book and actually provides a plausible basis for the Inchoroi/Consult quest to exterminate humanity.[/quote:v7zzo19w]

It was neither fully dealt with nor obvious. Imagine aliens arriving here - do you seriously think they would start feering the muslim god or the christian hell ? It's ludicrous. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: -->


G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Spamoram, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Grallon&quot;:2ff55zw5
Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:2ff55zw5
...The existence of magic absolutely disproves any materialistic worldview.[/quote:2ff55zw5]


Don't be absurd. Genetic mutations enabling energy channeling is far more plausible then deities &amp; other religious nonsense.

Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:2ff55zw5
... i don't see how this can even be a question. It is fully dealt with in the book and actually provides a plausible basis for the Inchoroi/Consult quest to exterminate humanity.[/quote:2ff55zw5]

It was neither fully dealt with nor obvious. Imagine aliens arriving here - do you seriously think they would start feering the muslim god or the christian hell ? It's ludicrous. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: -->


G.[/quote:2ff55zw5]


Please, please, please refrain from using phrases such as, "don't be absurd/stupid/dumb" to start off discussions. That only serves to raise the hackles of other people who then will feel the need to "defend" themselves. Rational discourse will then be discarded in favour of 1 upping each other.


Now, I'm as non-religious as the next guy but the idea that a genetic mutation allowing for energy manipulation is somehow less far fetched than deities existing seems strange to me. Now, seeing as we're reading fantasy, the possibility of magic and deities, even genetic mutations to manipulate energy are all quite plausible in my book. In this fantasy world...

I think you should stop trying to relate the real world with a fantasy world. The real world has to operate by following the natural laws. In a fantasy setting, the author is free to create his own laws thus enriching the world.

So ya, in the real world, we can't prove that gods exist. Neither does magic. However, the author of a fantasy fiction is free to create a world full of interesting deities, magic, monsters. Perhaps even having rules differing from World to World. That's what makes it so fun and why we read them...or so I hope. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Spamoram&quot;:2z2ubqgx
...

So ya, in the real world, we can't prove that gods exist. Neither does magic. However, the author of a fantasy fiction is free to create a world full of interesting deities, magic, monsters. Perhaps even having rules differing from World to World. That's what makes it so fun and why we read them...or so I hope.[/quote:2z2ubqgx]


Spare me the lecture - I'm aware of the conventions in the fantasy genre. Need I remind you the author went to great lenght to portray a realistic world ?


G. view post


Glad to see we have this forum posted 27 January 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtGlad to see we have this forum by Spamoram, Candidate

I don't know why you're being so belligerent.

I suppose you are correct. Genetic mutants with the power to create force fields and communicate to dreamers is much more real.

Spare me the attitude. view post


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