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Was Cnauir gay? posted 10 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by butlersr, Candidate

Well, was he? view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 10 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Nauticus, Auditor

Who cares? view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 11 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

He was manipulated into it by a Dunyain...I don't whether you could clearly define whether he IS or not really. I think a dunyain could talk his way into anybody's pants if it suited his aims. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 11 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Egaragoras, Candidate

Cnauir was gay? OMG I hate the PON now!

Yeah, just cause Bakker didn't put a billboard up saying "Cnauir was seduced by Moengus" doesn't mean that he didn't fairly clearly suggest to the reader that he was.

You could, however, read it so that it was just a platonic relationship between the two, which was mistaken for a homosexual relationship by the other members of the clan, if you wanted to. Bakker probably left it open on purpose. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 11 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

*whistles innocently*

More in TTT. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 11 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Nauticus, Auditor

Quote: "Anonymous":36pz8awl
an odd answer.
I care because to me it's as clear as can be that he is. I see it explained and related over and over throughout the two novels; And yet when I mentioned it in a previous post people seemed really taken aback like it was from out of nowhere. Not to mention if he's not gay, then that changes my understanding of the entire dynamic of his character, Kellhus, and Kellhus's father. It also changes my understanding of his motivations as well as the nature of the incredible internal struggle he grapples with through the two novels.
So there's my question. Does it offend your tender sensibilities?[/quote:36pz8awl]
I'm gay, so no. I was not offended.

But why does it matter?

Bakker's characters in this series are clearly a lot more detailed that 'gay' or 'straight'.

You place too much emphasis on sexual orientation. You were even accusing Bakker of homosexuality earlier. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 11 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by StegoKing, Candidate

Cnauir has sex with people of both sexes, so I'd say it's more fair to cal him bisexual. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 11 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Personally for me it's a non-issue. Cnaiur is Cnaiur, that goes for all the characters.
As was said, I think, espeically in Cnaiur's case, things go a little beyond a clear cut straight/gay definition, at least from the two books thus far. Since someone has pointed out there is more detail in TTT I shall wait until then. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 12 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by butlersr, Candidate

It's just that I interpreted the bulk of Cnauir's internal struggle as having to do with feeling attracted to Kellhus through mixing up feelings for his father. And I do think it's important to understand some of the reasons why "his prize" (aka his "proof") is so important to him. In my opinion she's his beard. I mean he's definitely the most conflicted character in the novels. I think that sexual confusion would account for that conflict based on the information given. But many other people seem to think sexual confusion to be doubtfull in his case or if it is recognized, just a smaller internal conflict. I'm saying it is the conflict and the reason why Cnauir does almost everything he does.
And being secretly gay in not an accusation. No crime or charge. It's just that whatever's repressed inside you will alway leak out here and there. Nothing causes one to spring sudden leaks like a novel. If someone can help me to account to the amount of homoeroticism dripping off the pages I'd be happy to withdraw the idea completely. But what I see is not just the recognition of homoeroticism in many of the character's dynamics, I see an emphasis on it as if it is of particular interest to the author. It's not like it matters if the author is gay or not. It's just that what I've noticed is unusual and I'm wondering about what could account for it. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 12 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Nauticus, Auditor

But Cnaiur is emotionally confused as a whole. Why boil it down to sexual orientation? view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 12 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Harrol, Moderator

I think the real betrayal that Cnauir feels is due to the fact Moengus provided something that was lacking in his life. Moengus show Cnauir genuine interest. We know that it was fake interest but to Cnauir it was genuine. Then Moengus showed Cnauir that he truly understood him. I do not believe that those were things Cnauir was accustomed to so like a man starving he jumped on those interests showed him and gained a strong emotional attachment towards the one that showed them to him. Cnauir has showed that sex has little emotional meaning to him so whether or not he had sex with Cnauir is really inconsequential to the fact of the emotional betrayal. Let us also look at the fact that Cnauir laments the death of his mother because Moengus impregnated her. Cnauir axe to grind with Moengus I believe covers many things. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 13 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Harrol, Moderator

I am not saying that he is not gay. I am just saying that that is not the prime mover to his motivation. I believe he had a relationship with Moengus but my question is does he continue to seek out those relationships. Is that what he is after now? view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 13 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by kansasbarbarian, Commoner

I personally don't think Cnaiur is gay I think he just wished Moengus was his father because of the interest he took in him. Seduction doesn't always lead to sexual relations. He seduced him from the typical Scylvendi way of life. He opened his mind to more knoweledge than Cnaiur would have had if Moengus had not been there. Cnaiur knew he was different from the rest of his tribe because he had more knowledge than any one there besides Moengus. How do you think he was able to resist Kellhus when everyone else succumbed? The reason that Serwe is his proof is from all the remarks and looks he was given by his people and his mothers guilt at having children by Moengus, and his guilt over his father because he told Moengus he wanted the white yaksh and that lead to his fathers murder. We know he is the most violent of all men as a way to be the best Scylvendi warrior in his own eyes even when his people still don't give him the respect he feels he deserves, so if he can't have their respect he will have their fear. Any way remember his reaction at the term faggot. He killed his uncle not because he was a faggot but because of shock of that was what his tribe thought. This is just my thoughts because he is a complex incredible character. If he dies in TTT he desrves a memorable way of Death as befits the most violent of all men, not as a faggot weeper. In any case if they had sex Moengus was achild molester as Cnaiur was still a kid. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 13 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Harrol, Moderator

Kansas that is agood point. I believe that is his prime motivation for what he is doing. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 13 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by StegoKing, Candidate

ahhh.....

Kansas, no.

He most certainly is gay. (or most certainly is bisexual at least) view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 13 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Nauticus, Auditor

He had sex with the ground. He literally screwed anything.

But I do not think he was gay. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 13 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by RedShift, Candidate

I didn't think Cnaiur was gay. I thought the whole point of his rage when he gets called "faggot" was because he didn't actually sleep with Moenghus, but I'm not sure about that. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 13 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Scilvenas, Auditor

I was thinking along the same lines as kansasbarbarian. I don't remember anywhere in the books it said Cnaur and Moenghus had sex (and the fact that he was shocked anyone would think so leads me to believe they didn't... not to mention Scott doesn't seem very hesitant to describe sexual details). I wouldn't rule it out, but I also wouldn't count it as conclusive evidence he's gay (not that there's anything wrong with that) even if he did. I mean, a woman can have a fling with another woman, but if it's a one time thing, people don't usually consider her a lesbian.

Besides, anything physical between the two would be the least important dynamic between them, I think. There's no doubt that Cnaur loved Moenghus, I just don't think he did in that way. Defining it in any particular kind of way would probably be too simple. More of a homo crush, if anything. He certainly couldn't have felt anything similar to what he did for his main wife, even if the one was greater.

In short, I seriously don't believe he's gay in the way we think of it. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 14 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Fine, because it's already been said here by another that's read TTT:

Yes, Cnaiür and Moënghus were lovers. It's quite explicit before the book is over that the two fucked each other. The only uncertainity is whether or not Cnaiür screwed other men. Then again that Rob Halford-esque moniker of Breaker of Horses and Men kinda has a different meaning now, huh? <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

But on a much more serious point - how does Cnaiür identify himself? While sexual identity is important, especially in this time and age, I seriously doubt it's THE defining issue of what cosntitutes a person. Too bad Scott's on vacation - it'd be fun to see what his take would be on this, because I can't help but think of how Michel Foucault defined himself in relation to his homosexual relations. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 14 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by zarathustra, Peralogue

For me its still kind of ambigous even at the end of TTT.
But I can still make a couple of points without plot spoilers. At the end of the warrior prophet Cnauir says that he will do anything to kill Moenghus even kneel under hot seed. Conphas provokes the Scylvendi by buggering their captives in view of their army.
I remember that Bible scholars interepreting the prohibition against homosexuality as rather against the raping of prisoners of war.
I would say that Cnauir's sexual identity is tied to violence and domination whether it is men or women. As they say he is deffinately a giver rather than a reciever.
I really hope my internet usage is not being monitored! view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 14 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by StegoKing, Candidate

It's not ambiguous at the end of TTT at all....... homeboy is gay. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 14 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Twayleph, Auditor

StegoKing, please refrain from giving TTT spoilers..for those who are waiting impatiently for it and want to keep the element of surprise, it's very frustrating. Even though it may not seem like a big spoiler to you, it can be important to other people. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 14 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Was just going to say the same thing and saw Twayleph beat me to it, The book hasn't been released so giving anything thats spoilerish is really just... well it's poor form folks on a message board. Especially with no Spoiler warning/buffer things. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Thanks in advance folks, some of us weren't lucky enough to get our hands on ARC's. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 14 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

I can't help but wonder if it's 'poor form' to basically cite things from the synopsis, considering that just only sums up the first two books <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Make of that statement what you will - as it applies to something else that's been argued quite fiercely around here for over a year. <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 15 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Nauticus, Auditor

Hah

Valid point. I suppose it depends on the subject matter of the synopsis. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 15 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by StegoKing, Candidate

I think it's quite obvious from the first two volumes of the Prince of Nothing that Cnauir is gay. As such, it's hardly a spoiler, though I apologize if you read it as such. I suggest you reread the first two books if you doubt this fact in the slightest.... you're probably missing a lot if you didn't pick up on that tidbit.

I was a bit perterbed by the frothing homophobia in this thread and was railing against it.

"Cnauir is too fuckin cool to be a fagg0t!!!!!11111" view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 15 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Nauticus, Auditor

Quote: &quot;StegoKing&quot;:2flcevvj
I think it's quite obvious from the first two volumes of the Prince of Nothing that Cnauir is gay. As such, it's hardly a spoiler, though I apologize if you read it as such. I suggest you reread the first two books if you doubt this fact in the slightest.... you're probably missing a lot if you didn't pick up on that tidbit.

I was a bit perterbed by the frothing homophobia in this thread and was railing against it.

"Cnauir is too fuckin cool to be a fagg0t!!!!!11111"[/quote:2flcevvj]
Well, I honestly didn't think of Cnaiur as gay. But I certainly re-read the first two volumes with this in mind. view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 15 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I never missed the implications of the first two novels that he may/may not be. I simply stated previously that his sexual orientation really isn't a big deal to me. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

As others have said I think Cnaiur is far too complicated to simply be labelled according to sexual orientation, I also think the situation is more complex as well. I don't really recall seeing many homophobic reactions...I for one could care less which way Cnaiur likes to swing the bat. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 15 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

I believe the 'homophobe' part deals with the person who posted this - just go to the TWP section and see a post he made there recently. And Scott and his wife will just love to learn that he's now been labelled as 'gay' by this one person that seems to have a gay fixation. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> view post


Was Cnauir gay? posted 17 December 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by butlersr, Candidate

And I'd like to first say that you all should thank me. The sheer amount of time that we have all devoted to proving our views of whether Cnaiur is gay or not suggest one thing - it's ambiguous. Which means that it's something our beloved author is saving for the final book. I have little to know doubt that we will know then. And I myself am quite certain that Cnaiur is gay. And when the book comes out I would like some appologies about all the railing you have all done against me both in this topic and in others for suggesting otherwise.
And in return I give an apology.

Making judgements on the author is something I'd like to retract. Many of you have raised my hackles by suggesting very simplistic and idiotic reasons and basis why I have made these judgements. But I realized that I would spend pages and pages defending them and for what? I'd get into defending my reasons for making the judgements instead of the judgements themselves. Basically trying to prove that I'm not an idiot for suggesting something controversial. That would be an empty and hard-earned victory.
I would like to alter my thought somewhat. In most literature, for someone to be overtly homoerotic (as I say Bakker has been in these books, I'll not take time defending that claim because it will force me to re-read the two books only to dictate certain passages, fuck that) it would almost always suggest a specific interest in homoeroticism. That's held pretty true in the past - should it need to be that way? No, people should be able to present homoeroticism without having interest in it themselves - but it just hasn't happened often in literature. So when I saw the homoeroticism so strong in these novels I thought something to be up. There's another more interesting possibility here - being that Bakker is not interested particularly in homoeroticism himself - but very interested in its use as a plot/character dynamic. I would say genious then!
It is an interesting dynamic! It provides all sorts of depth and drama and controvery and questions and it's also well suited for the time we live in where sexual preference is being seen on a spectrum as opposed to being absolute.
If he intentionally did that to thicken the characters and the plot then I would be even more impressed.

As far as Kellhus being his idealized self and Cnauir being his doppleganger: ok, ok - I withdraw it! The response against that has been so strong I must be forced to reconsider.
But it sure did give us all something to talk about didn't it?

<!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Don't worry though - I'll have a fresh batch of bullshit after reading the next one. And if it turns out our boy is gay I'm going to re-read all those posts railing against the audacity of my suggestion that he could have been and reply to all of them one by one having a nice glass of wine while doing it. view post


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