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Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 08 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by butlersr, Candidate

I think that to understand Esmett's betrayl one must see Esmi as Bakker's critique of women.

What Esmi has always done is cling to the strongest man - or more specifically, the man who can best provide for her needs; physically first, and emotionally second. The evidence for this motivation is:
She always loved Achamian while she was a whore - he met many of her emotional needs; but she didn't feel that she could count on him - there was no security there. So she stayed with prostituting - it was secure. As she started getting older she realized that prostituting was losing its security (there are no old prostitutes) so she started to persue Akka more and more. He was the only offer of security at that time - even though he couldn't offer much, it was the best at the time. When she went to look for him she encountered Sarcellous. And fell in a type of love for him; why? - Because he was able to provide for her, she had found security in his wealth and prestige. But, he was unable to meet her emotional needs as well - so she continued to seek Akka to meet those needs while Sarcellous continued to meet her physical needs. Then Achamian commits himself to her. He's then able to meet both of her needs and she promptly dumps Sarcellous (a good thing really, but she didn't know that at the time).
Uh-oh, now here come The Warrior-Prophet! He is handsom and esteemed by many and shows every sign of someone who will soon be able to support a harem of women if he wanted to. Not to mention he works her ego nicely by calling her "the mother of the world" or some such thing. She's tempted from the start - and at the first sign of Akka's withdrawl from her life she jumps at it. She's looking again for that security - not to mention she's a bit of a social climber.
And this is why i say that Bakker takes a dim view of women. Because the characteristics that I've described are one of man's main criticisms against the female gender. Their loyalty has a price - and that price is security and prestige (which in traditional societies are one in the same).
He boils this main female character down to the wost characteristics of her gender. First she's a whore, second her fidelity in love is conditional, and third she's prone to constant jealousy for what other women have. He hasn't taken her character outside of these stereotypes once.
Ahh..I'm having fun now - I think I'll take it a step further. I think the author is gay as well. And not openly so.
He takes a little too much delight in the degredation of women and a little too much delight in the phallus. Ever other page sports an erection of some sort. And just that whole scene with Cenaur (sp?) coming naked out of the ocean. It was homoerotic as it was - and born of one's own sexual fantasies. But then to take it further letting the reader, incidentally, know that Cenaur's (sp?) has huge penis. Thanks for the info, it's important to me to know that the main characters are well-hung. Speculation is fun so I'll go on. I'd say that the Warrior-Prophet is Bakker's idealized self, and Cenaur is his dark half. His view of women is clear enough as I stated, and the rest of the characters are only there to react to him (being Bakker's idealized self as well as his dark half). They are in awe of his idealized self but also fear and persecute it, and are distgusted and fearfull of his dark half. So I guess I'm saying that the books, as good as they are - are all about him. But what great writer isn't a narccist, really?
Ah, but there is my main criticism then - that is where the book faltered. Bakker wasn't interested in the other characters so much - only how they reacted to his main characters, or as I said-him. So the character developement fell short, motivations weren't explored. The plight of the narccisist again. Being "all about the author" limited it from being great.
And that's too bad, because it could have been great. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 10 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Atropos, Commoner

You make some shrewd observations and some I even almost agree with, but please, we don't need to read them (almost verbatim) in several posts. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 12 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by anor277, Didact

Quote: "butlersr":1ik29zgh
I think that to understand Esmett's betrayl one must see Esmi as Bakker's critique of women.
.......[/quote:1ik29zgh]

And whom did Esme betray? A man she reasonably thought dead, who had arguably abandoned her on that night he went to the library, a man whose fidelity she had legitimate reason to doubt?

Again I find it hard to agree that the author is a misogynist. The Three Seas is a very nasty place to live. Everything and everyone is for sale. As for prostitution it is probably hard to find a new profession as a clerk or a typist if you're tattooed with the mark of a whore. I think even Achamian himself understood the choices facing Esmenet - if she didn't sell him (Akka) and herself she would be dead very soon. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 12 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Harrol, Moderator

I have to agree with anor's veiw on this. I think bustler is reading too much into the character, but he did make a few points that bear merit. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 15 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by H, Auditor

I thought Scott has already said that Esmet was really a critique of the role of women in the medieval peroid, and the extremely limited options they had to make a living.

I could be totally imagining this though... <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 15 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by benwick19, Commoner

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:mpi82km1
Quote: &quot;butlersr&quot;:mpi82km1
I think that to understand Esmett's betrayl one must see Esmi as Bakker's critique of women.
.......[/quote:mpi82km1]

And whom did Esme betray? A man she reasonably thought dead, who had arguably abandoned her on that night he went to the library, a man whose fidelity she had legitimate reason to doubt?

Again I find it hard to agree that the author is a misogynist. The Three Seas is a very nasty place to live. Everything and everyone is for sale. As for prostitution it is probably hard to find a new profession as a clerk or a typist if you're tattooed with the mark of a whore. I think even Achamian himself understood the choices facing Esmenet - if she didn't sell him (Akka) and herself she would be dead very soon.[/quote:mpi82km1]

So how come it was so easy for Xin, a guy Achamian had known for as many years as he had known Esmenet, to leave his prince, the man he had schooled since childhood to go in search of a man he didnt even know was still alive while Esmenet is able to just assume Achamian is dead and move on and barely goes a few days without bunking down with the next strong man she sees and forgetting about Akka view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 19 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by alhana, Auditor

If I was living in the Three Seas, I just might be a whore too. It is a hard place to live. This is not about what the woman could or couldn't do...it was about what she MUST do. Yes she is weak and seemingly betrays the latest lover to take up the next strongest guy that comes along for security, but so does every woman. You only need to look around at the majority of the women who inhabit the news or even your neighborhoods to see that every woman is looking for security as every man is looking for adoration. This scene is played out by every woman who stays with an abusive or degenerate man just because he is security. Even when the woman is supporting said slacker who lays passed out on the couch from whatever vile potion he consumed, she will still stay because to leave him would to be to give up on her dream of finding Prince Charming behind the Toad she first kissed and to step out into the terrifying concrete jungle alone.

If Bakker is writing about his critique of every woman, then he is also writing about every man...the eternal lust for power and war and to dominate the women in his path and to overcome the perceived weakness of himself. Again, look only as far as today's headlines to see every manner of man conquering some foe, whether on a field of war or of sport. From the Emperor to Akka, you can see the self doubt that every man longs to have resolved for him, either by his accomplishments or his woman or lover...his prize. Maybe also he even touches on a homosexual fantasy that many men fear, that in even the sexual preference there might be a weakness.

You have missed the scope of Bakker's writing.....yes, he writes of himself but he also places all of humanity into his reflections of himself. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 24 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Primal, Peralogue

(referring to first post) All I'll say is that you can read anything into anything. For example, I could argue that you have a particular mindset, focused on the homoerotic. There are some detailed descriptions and what not. What does that say about you? =] view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 24 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by gierra, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Quote: &quot;benwick19&quot;:34eyihpt
So how come it was so easy for Xin, a guy Achamian had known for as many years as he had known Esmenet, to leave his prince, the man he had schooled since childhood to go in search of a man he didnt even know was still alive while Esmenet is able to just assume Achamian is dead and move on and barely goes a few days without bunking down with the next strong man she sees and forgetting about Akka[/quote:34eyihpt]

because xin is a warrior, and esmi is a woman, who probably would have been kidnapped, raped and/or killed had she struck out on her own to find him. and really, what could she have done to help achamian even if she had believed he was alive?

i'd hardly say she only went a few days wbefore bunking down with kelhus. she stayed behind to grieve and mourn, and was not until later that kelhus and serwe returned for her, and convinced her to go with them. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 24 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I agree with Primal and gierra, you can read anything into anything if you want to but Im going to have to say people too often overanalyze the books, sometimes to the point of making statements about the authors sexuality and etc. which is just ridiculous, Scott has written precisely what that time period would be like for women and portrayed Esmi very well and often as an intelligent women, Esmi did what any sane person would have done in her situation which is to surivive and honestly who is going to say no to Kellhus.

I still think it is funny that we are commenting on a post that was posted a year ago, but ressurecting dead posts is always fun view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 24 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by alhana, Auditor

Huzzah to ressurecting old posts! I am new to the series, so the posts are all new to me!

As a female reader, I find nothing offensive about Bakker's references to the female characters or to his references to phallic symbols. Maybe I am just to navie to get worked up over a few penises.

I second the notion that one can focus on selected passages of any book and miss the whole story. In fact, I think we all know of &quot;holy scriptures&quot; of any world sect that has been &quot;mis-quoted&quot; and &quot;taken out of context&quot; to prompt a social view or prove a point of sin.

I suppose if one took this analogy far enough, one could find examples of &quot;he-man woman hating&quot; and &quot;homoerotic references&quot; in primer books for children. &quot;Oh look, Dick is holding a stick. This author must be making a homosexual reference&quot; &quot;Oh Jane fell down and hurt her knee. This author must be saying that girls are weak and cry all the time.&quot;

It takes a small brain to get stuck on the words on the page. Elite readers appreciated skillful writing and can see the whole story for all of the glorious details. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 24 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Harrol, Moderator

.

If I was living in the Three Seas, I just might be a whore too. It is a hard place to live. This is not about what the woman could or couldn't do...it was about what she MUST do. Yes she is weak and seemingly betrays the latest lover to take up the next strongest guy that comes along for security, but so does every woman. You only need to look around at the majority of the women who inhabit the news or even your neighborhoods to see that every woman is looking for security as every man is looking for adoration. This scene is played out by every woman who stays with an abusive or degenerate man just because he is security. Even when the woman is supporting said slacker who lays passed out on the couch from whatever vile potion he consumed, she will still stay because to leave him would to be to give up on her dream of finding Prince Charming behind the Toad she first kissed and to step out into the terrifying concrete jungle alone.

If Bakker is writing about his critique of every woman, then he is also writing about every man...the eternal lust for power and war and to dominate the women in his path and to overcome the perceived weakness of himself. Again, look only as far as today's headlines to see every manner of man conquering some foe, whether on a field of war or of sport. From the Emperor to Akka, you can see the self doubt that every man longs to have resolved for him, either by his accomplishments or his woman or lover...his prize. Maybe also he even touches on a homosexual fantasy that many men fear, that in even the sexual preference there might be a weakness.

You have missed the scope of Bakker's writing.....yes, he writes of himself but he also places all of humanity into his reflections of himself.


I agree with this by and large with the exceptions to a woman's point of view due to the fact that I am not a woman. Bakker is writing a critique of humanity in a medival time period. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 24 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Quote: &quot;alhana&quot;:3ez0d6kb

As a female reader, I find nothing offensive about Bakker's references to the female characters or to his references to phallic symbols. Maybe I am just too navie to get worked up over a few penises.[/quote:3ez0d6kb]

Tee-hee, Alhana said penises. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->


Quote: &quot;alhana&quot;:3ez0d6kb

I suppose if one took this analogy far enough, one could find examples of &quot;he-man woman hating&quot; and &quot;homoerotic references&quot; in primer books for children. &quot;Oh look, Dick is holding a stick. This author must be making a homosexual reference&quot; &quot;Oh Jane fell down and hurt her knee. This author must be saying that girls are weak and cry all the time.&quot;

It takes a small brain to get stuck on the words on the page. Elite readers appreciated skillful writing and can see the whole story for all of the glorious details.[/quote:3ez0d6kb]

&lt;Inclines head to Alhana the Younger's wisdom&gt;
Beautifully said dear. Beautifully said. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 25 July 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by dharok, Commoner

Quote: &quot;butlersr&quot;:68hrg5ca
I think that to understand Esmett's betrayl one must see Esmi as Bakker's critique of women.[/quote:68hrg5ca]

I think you have been too quick to generalize. You might in fact be correct, but I see no reason to abstract Bakker's understanding of women from Esmett in order to apply it to all women. I think that first and foremost, it must be remembered that Bakker has written a work of fiction; not a philosophical treatise. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 15 September 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Scel, Candidate

People should remember that Strong and &quot;Liberated&quot; women are a recent development in our world...and indeed are unknown in some contemporary cultures.

Now in (even a fictional world) world that is patriachial, women were marginalised. And OUR modern concepts would seem totally out of place.

Anyway, a woman like Esmi lived as best she could with no power of her own.

She could of been killed by any of her clients, or on the road with little or no consequences to the killer.

So you can say her being alive at all and maintaining her independent spirit and even desiring LOVE is a triumph. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 15 September 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Scel&quot;:111cuic4
People should remember that Strong and &quot;Liberated&quot; women are a recent development in our world...and indeed are unknown in some contemporary cultures.

Now in (even a fictional world) world that is patriachial, women were marginalised. And OUR modern concepts would seem totally out of place.
[/quote:111cuic4]

Not entirely true, in some cultures women could wield considerable power and attain very high status (Norse, Iroquois, and ancient Egypt, to name three). Even medieval Europe isn't without notable power and influence (Eleanor of Aquitaine to name one).

That said, the Three Seas is more misogynistic than Medieval Europe. Esmenet did the best she could with her very limited options. Her moving into new roles and handling greater responsibilities is a very potent condemnation of the attitudes of the people of the Three Seas. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 23 October 2006 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Moebius, Commoner

Yeah strong and liberated women existed in the old days, but they were the exception rather than the rule, even in the cultures you named. Although to be fair, there were probably MANY strong and powerful women back then whose influences were behind the scenes and forgotten or neglected by history.

In general I would have to say the more violent and turbulent the time period, the less likely the existence of dominant female figures. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 30 January 2007 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Purple Library Guy, Commoner

I think what's being ignored here is that it wasn't just Esmenet involved. We're talking about Kellhus here, The Master Manipulator. Achamian, very smart, very much the outside, relatively detached observer, gets taken in by him. Everyone falls in love with this guy except Cnaiur and Ikurei Conphas. Conphas only didn't because he was a psychopath, inherently unable to put anyone else's priorities ahead of his own. Cnaiur knew what Kellhus was, and was also very intelligent and so stubborn and generally anathema to outside control that to succumb would have broken him; despite that, resisting Kellhus' influence arguably drove him mad.

Esmenet falling for him is another example of Kellhus' power, and simultaneously of Kellhus' amorality and internal imperative to control everyone. It's another case of dissonance between his appearance to those taken in by him and his actions, which are never taken to benefit anyone but himself. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 19 June 2007 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by Callan S., Auditor

I think there are some misogynistic beliefs involved in the accusation of mysogyny in the authors works.

A woman earns money through sex, and latter there are several notable men she sleeps with.

&quot;Oh my god, what a misogynistic writer he is, to have her to do all those horrible things!&quot;

I think it's pretty mysoginistic to consider those things horrible by default.

It's deciding why a woman would choose to do those does not matter in the least (&quot;Who cares why she did it, that doesn't matter, it's horrible!&quot;). That's misogynistic, in my mind.

The idea that she just flounces along to the next strongest man only has wind to it if you decide for her that her choice to have sex with them is horrible. view post


Esmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism posted 17 July 2007 in The Warrior ProphetEsmet's betrayl, Bakker's massogeny, and a criticism by xatantius, Candidate

I think the post does raise a few interesting points, but then again you could insinuate that Bakker is pushing Communism or Nazism or Zoroastrianism if you read into it far enough. And as for Bakker being secretly gay...his first book is dedicated to a woman name Sharron-his wife (although then again Cnaiur was married about 30 times and look at him).
I think this would be a GREAT series for an advanced English class or even university. Try and find the most ridiculous subtext, like Buddhist or Ku Klux Klan <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
By the way, I'm aware this thread is over 2 years old, but what the hey. Like the last guy said, I'm a new member so every thread is new to me <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


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