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Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 08 September 2005 in Author Q & AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Megadas, Commoner

I'm having a little difficulty seperating the reality from the conjured illusion regarding the "ressurection" of Kelhus at the end of TWP.

From what I have been able to gather, after re-reading several times, Kelhus never died, however he did loose control over "legion", or his emotions. This I can understand. Immediately following this he stumbled upon TTT.

However, once he is cut from Serwe and stands, things start happening that are a bit further away from reality than I can process. Exactly what is occuring when Kelhus pulls his heart from his chest and holds it over his head? Is this an illusion that he is perpetrating in front of his new disciples? Or is this meant to be taken litteraly, that he is in fact now immortal and has no further need for a beating heart?

Thanks in advance! view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 08 September 2005 in Author Q & AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Mithfânion, Didact

Yes, similar thoughts here.

I ultimately too it to mean it was symbolic since he shouldn't be able to literally do it, but it was written as though it had been done literally.

That whole sequence was rather "dreamy" anyway. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 08 September 2005 in Author Q & AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Twayleph, Auditor

As I understand it, Khellus didn't really rip out his own heart, illusion or otherwise; it was Serwë's heart that he took.

He brandished Serwë's burning heart.


The ripping-his-own-heart passage was a metaphore; since attaining/discovering TTT, Khellus feels that all things are his and that he is everywhere; in that perspective, Serwë's heart is his own heart. Whether that's true or not, we'll see in TTT <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 09 September 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:30sficcj
The ripping-his-own-heart passage was a metaphore; since attaining/discovering TTT, Khellus feels that all things are his and that he is everywhere; in that perspective, Serwë's heart is his own heart. Whether that's true or not, we'll see in TTT <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:30sficcj]

Right you are. This question came up before, and I don't know how people miss the reference to Serwe's and not Kellhus's heart . . . view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 09 September 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by H, Auditor

Well, it is confusing because no where does it say that he's even near Serwe, let alone that he reaches into her and pulls out her heart. Scott's a competant writer, so he must have left the passage ambiguous for a reason...perhaps to make us wonder about the nature of the transcendance gained from the TT. Is it a physically transformation (the passage littereally) or a metaphysical (the passage metaphorically), or both?

Like Mithfânion says, we'll probably have to wait for TTT to really 'get' the whole scene... view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 09 September 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by sciborg2, Candidate

I agree that Scott left it ambiguous on purpose, as with other mysteries...some are revealed (Esme's child) while others at least to me remain a mystery (Did Cnauir have sex with Moenghus?) view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 09 September 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Mithfânion, Didact

This question came up before, and I don't know how people miss the reference to Serwe's and not Kellhus's heart . . .


That's because we're all very dumb White Lord, and we need the true brilliance of someone like yourself to enlighten us.

<!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: --> view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 14 October 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Well, if it makes you all feel any better, I'm actually not very happy with that section myself. The ambiguity is intentional. Since I use third-person centred, the character's mindset continually colours the prose. But the whole business with the heart actually played a role with Cnaiur that I subsequently axed. So now when I read it, I always feel the missing context. Could be you're feeling it too. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 15 December 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Adn, Commoner

This was a section I had to read a few times over, feeling that I had missed something. In the end, I shrugged, allowed that it may have been intended to be ambiguous (both literal and symbolic/metaphoric possibilities crossed my mind), and moved on. The style here seemed slightly out of character of your writing.

In a way I'm glad there was something cut here and that I didn't just miss something. In a way I wish the section wasn't cut. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->



Scott, I've thoroughly enjoyed your books so far. I'm always looking for fiction that stands outside of the cookie cutter mold that much of the fantasy genre seems to come in lately. I can honestly say that you rank up there with Steven Erikson, Greg Egan and George RR Martin as one of my favorite authors.

Thanks for catching my attention! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Adn view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 15 December 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by H, Auditor

This and the otehr discussion about a leather-bound edition have me wondering, might me ever see something like an unabridged version?

Well, i guess what i really asking is was there alot cut, or only a few things in all the books? view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 28 December 2005 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Tonnes of material was cut from TDTCB. Not so much from TWP, and even less from TTT. Reworking this material is a pet dream of mine, but I honestly don't know when I'll ever find the time. I'm on the treadmill now. Gotta keep writing if I want to eat! view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 13 October 2006 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Alpha Crow, Candidate

This part has me losing sleep!

It says he reached into his own chest, but had Serwe's heart a second later. I'm thinking, ok this means he is either tricking the bystanders or is showing Serwe's heart in some meaningful way that I'm not catching on and that is not supposed to be tricky.

Yet in TTT, Eleazaras (Scarlet Spires headmaster) talks about watching Kellhus &quot;reach into his chest and pull out his f#@$ing heart&quot;.

So apparently it was not a simple showing off of Serwe's heart in some open way that we don't get. Guessing that he doesn't make mistakes, then he did it as an illusion.

The weird way it is initially written, he reaches into his chest and firmly grasps his heart? Firmly? To rip it out? Because her heart is slippery? His chest?

For a bit I thought it was all just some sort of dream sequence or something deeper such as he loved Serwe so her heart was his, perhaps... until I ran across the comment by Eleazaras.

I see Mr. Bakker's reply doesn't clear it up much, though I think he's saying it IS Serwe's heart, but doesnt' say if it is supposed to be a trick.

Little help? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 13 October 2006 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Harrol, Moderator

Yes it is Serwe's heart or atleast that seems to be Scott's intention. I also believe that Kellhus did that to gain more control over the people around him and therefore there is some deception to it. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 21 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Buckethead, Peralogue

I read this passage the same way i have approached the haloed hands issue... that perhaps kellhus can visually decieve people into seeing what they want to see the same way a professional hypnotist or magician can use illusion. Our brains really do filter the information that our eyes recieve, this is fact. my first year at art school in visual perception our teacher put a yellow square against a white wall, we concentrated on it for one minute and when it was removed there was the illusion of a purple square on the wall. why? because the human brain always seeks balance and orginization. your brain attempts to balance the vibrant yellow with it's complimentary colour.
I tend to think that kellhus manages this both through slight of hand and building the expectation of the supernatural through his words and actions. this may explain why serwe sees haloes around the hands of the skin spy. Her brain is projecting those haloes in response to trying to make sense of the unbelievable and fantasmagorical actions and speech of kellhus...
just a thought.

also, ambiguity in moderation can make a good story great. most of the story is quite clear. i think scott uses ambiguous amd creative writing to his benefit, especially with the amount of philosophy entrenched in the book... i find it refreshing to read fantasy that i can reread, think about and discus at length. too much clarification can make something boring the same way ambiguity can confuse. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 25 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Buckethead, Peralogue

i am reading the thousandfold thought right now and have just finished the part where kellhus hypnotizes achamian so he can speak to seswatha... i totally forgot about it... view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 28 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Buckethead&quot;:34myvajk
I read this passage the same way i have approached the haloed hands issue... that perhaps kellhus can visually decieve people into seeing what they want to see the same way a professional hypnotist or magician can use illusion. Our brains really do filter the information that our eyes recieve, this is fact. my first year at art school in visual perception our teacher put a yellow square against a white wall, we concentrated on it for one minute and when it was removed there was the illusion of a purple square on the wall. why? because the human brain always seeks balance and orginization. your brain attempts to balance the vibrant yellow with it's complimentary colour.
I tend to think that kellhus manages this both through slight of hand and building the expectation of the supernatural through his words and actions. this may explain why serwe sees haloes around the hands of the skin spy. Her brain is projecting those haloes in response to trying to make sense of the unbelievable and fantasmagorical actions and speech of kellhus...
just a thought.

also, ambiguity in moderation can make a good story great. most of the story is quite clear. i think scott uses ambiguous amd creative writing to his benefit, especially with the amount of philosophy entrenched in the book... i find it refreshing to read fantasy that i can reread, think about and discus at length. too much clarification can make something boring the same way ambiguity can confuse.[/quote:34myvajk]

is it at all impossible that kellhus could actually be a prophet? i mean this would go entierly against what he is but at the same time it would explain his expanding morality view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 28 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

I won't say that it's impossible. Yes it is possible. Then again I don't know what the requirements for being a Prophet are.

I also think that it is equally possible that he still holds alterior motives, like the speculation that he may want to become something like the No-God or even reach for apotheosis himself.

But regardless, I think that he believes that he is a Prophet. That he is the Harbinger and that he is the Saviour many want him to be. History will name him a prophet regardless of it's actual validity. Others believe him a prophet, and he believes himself a prophet, and all that he does from here on out will be the works of a prophet (or potentially the greatest monster of men . . . we'll have to RAFO). view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Buckethead, Peralogue

if he is truely a prophet, it would be a little strange.. only because it is quite clearly stated repeatedly that many of the messages he preaches from god to men are &quot;lies&quot; (bakker uses this term from kellhus' point of view more than once to explain them). which in turn would mean that the god/gods had been using him without his knowledge. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

I can't recall exactly, but were any of these references from Kellhus's POV from after the Circumfixion? view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Buckethead, Peralogue

no, i don't think they were... however at one point after leaving the holy war to find his father, kellhus cries to the winds &quot;what was i to do?&quot; &quot;they attend only to what lies before their eyes. they listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unsees, things unheard ... they trust you.&quot;

&quot;what was i to do? tell them the truth?&quot;

i took this to be something of a confession of his misappropriation of the holy war... implying that he is not a prophet or at least that he lied to the &quot;children&quot; of the three seas about something quite important(i don't believe it could possibly be anything else).

i know, not hard evidence but hey, all i can come up with on short notice.

and no, it's not impossible that kellhus is a prophet, but up to this point after all of the narration from kellhus' point of view i find impossible to THINK he could be. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

At first I read his cries to the sky exactly as you did, but then I went back and thought that he might not be speaking of the Holy War, but of all men. He saw the true nature, or a least a glimpse of understanding, of God. Via the Thousandfold Thought. He knows something very, Very important about the nature of reality. And yes he had to tell his followers what they needed to hear to get them to Shimeh so that he could confront Mo, but his motivations concerning Mo seem to have changed. And this is all following the Circumfixion.

And then his motivation for killing Mo. Many on this board have speculated that Kellhus reasons that the Dunyain, or at least Moenghus, will come to the same conclusion as the Consult/Inchoroi and try to close the Outside via the Second Apocalypse because the Outside will be an unaccountable variable which must be removed. But Kellhus says that when Moenghus becomes a &quot;true believer he will know his damnation&quot;. It is his damnation, and probably the Dunyain's that will make them the new Consult, not some unaccountable variable. To me this shows that Kellhus has become a believer. He has gone beyond the Logos. The Logos is just a tool for him now. He is a holy man. Or at least a zealot.

Some vision of the Outside has altered his perceptions. He is more than Dunyain. He is Dunyain whose got religion. The power of belief many times outways that of logic. Logic can make one do horrible things on a small scale, religion can make one do atroticouse things on a genocidal scale. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

i though he was shouting to the sky not to apologize for lying to them about what he said nor anything he did, but who he said he was. at first, he lied about his class and status. then, before the circumfixion, he still refered to himself as a prophet even though he did not yet beleive it himself. i dont think he was reffering to the sermons, but the fatc that they still have yet to learn of his dunyain heratige view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

Kellhus never once referred to himself as a prophet prior to the circumfixion. He was too smart for that. That was one of the points raised during his trial. They named him a false prophet, yet he never once claimed to be a prophet. He let others make that claim, not himself. Plausible deniability. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

yet at the same time he lead those closest to him to beleive very strongly.
while teaching esminet to read, he scraped out a passage from the tusk. when she protested, he replied &quot;just who, exactly do you think i am?&quot; view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

a'ight, you got a point there. But I still think it's something larger than that. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

i just think its him coming more to turns with his morality. whether or not he is communing with god, i think he beleives that he is shouting to him.he is unused to greif or regret and doesnt know how else to respond view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

&quot;You know, I've heard a lot about Kellhus coming to terms with his morality. The only thing that shows him gaining morality is when he told Esmenet he truly loved her. But I don't buy the morality discussion. I don't think that going from Dunyain to the Circumfixion (admittedly he did have a break down while Circumfixed) to the Thousand Fold Thought would lead him down the lesser path of human morality,&quot;

This was what I was originally going to post, but when I went back and read it, it got me to thinking. Who have had the TFT? Only Moenghus and Kellhus. As I stated above, Kellhus had a break down during the circumfixion. His Logos failed him and his Dunyain training faltered, and he cried out. Moenghus must have had such a breakdown of his own following his entering the Cishaurim and realizing that the Logos had failed him and he had reached a dead end.

There is something here but I can't see it just now. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Buckethead, Peralogue

who he said he was (the fact that he had dreams of the holy wart) has everything to do with him being a prophet. from the beginning he claimed to be prophetic (having dreams from god), and therefore to be a prophet. quite clearly stated over and over and over again is the fact that they will not believe he is a prophet if he claims to be one. so by not telling them of his dunyain origins, he would be hiding the fact that he was falsely claiming to be a prophet (in the very least at the beginning).

as for killing moenghus? as much as i love the depth of development in these books, i have to say that i personally think kellhus did it for simple reasons after learning from previous mistakes. When he left cnaiur alive (after feeling pity for the first time, and many times later), it backfired in his face (one of the very few things that did). because he left cnaiur alive, debatibly his gratest enemy the consult, now knows his origins and the principles and skills of the dunyain. i figure that when he kills moenghus, he still feels quite in the dark about him, his potentials and what kind of a threat he presents. rather than risk himself at the hands of the unknown (something in all probability that scares the hell out of someone who is in control of virtually everything around him), he chooses to kill moenghus in a situation where he feels that he will most definately succede. with cnaiur and moenghus gone, he has very simply removed the two largest human threats to himself.

in many ways kellhus speaks to moenghus as if he is superior in their final meeting, yet it is moenghus who &quot;will not relent&quot; the answers. one way or the other kellhus does present himself as a believer in his meeting with moenghus, and yes he does speak to him of his damnation, but who is to say he is representing himself accurately? if he was would he not be making himself an easy target for another dunyain? i don't know... i still have too many doubts to believe he is a true prophet. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Buckethead, Peralogue

if you read earlier in the warrior prophet, kellhus forsees serwe's death... i don't think his dunyain training failed him, i think that in the end, being crucified was his only true gamble... i believe he understood everything leading up to it and thought that if he could live through it he would have sole possesion over the holy war.

does he truely love esmenet? i don't think so. he told the inchoroi that she doesn't love him, she worships him and doesn't know the difference, i find that more believable than love. she loves him the same way she loved achamian, he makes her a larger part of the world.

my other question:

He saw the true nature, or a least a glimpse of understanding, of God. Via the Thousandfold Thought.

moenghus is also capable of the thousand fold thought, so how come kellhus knows the god's will and not moenghus? it seems clear to me at that point that the only god either of them have communed with or rather &quot;heard&quot; is the no-god.

my last point is one i'll rehash,
while teaching esminet to read, he scraped out a passage from the tusk. when she protested, he replied &quot;just who, exactly do you think i am?&quot;
he can only become a prophet in people's minds if he denies it while at the same time playing the part. in this case esmi already believes he's a prophet, so does achamian. it doesn't hurt his public standing to tell her he's a prophet in privacy, it only strengthens his hold on her. view post


Question about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* posted 29 March 2007 in Author Q &amp; AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by Jamara, Auditor

Buckethead, my latter post kind of changes my former. Like I said, only he and Moenghus know the TFT. I really don't think we've seen exactly what that is. If it truely is real or something from two broken Dunyain. I'm not sure anymore.

At this point I am considering the possibility that he is as mad as Cnaiur.

As for foreseeing Serwe's death. I'm not sure if that's true. He definintely foresaw something to the degree of his circumfixion, and it was a gamble in order to cement his control over the Holy War, but I don't think he was conditioned enough to be strapped to a deceased lover for such a length. And even he was surprised by his breaking. I forget where he states it, by the impression was definitely left that even he was surprised at how much he was broken by the circumfixion.

And following that low point, he had the TFT. Moenghus didn't receive the TFT until after he had reached his dead end. Something that must have broke his Dunyain conviction to the Logos. Mo failed where he thought he was gaining limitless power. In fact he was halted in his tracks. What a blow that must of been to his ego.

So now I cotemplate whether Kellhus's proclamations to the sky were not the schizophrenic howls of a madman, and not some greater symbolic gesture. Did he truly believe that he conversed with the gods? Was it guilt, shame, or a secret burden he was railing against? I'm really not sure. view post


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