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Worldhorn & Heron Spear posted 26 Aug 2005, 16:08 by Mithfânion, Didact

Scott, Whilst reading TWP, two ancient artifacts really came to the fore, those being the Heron Spear, which somehow doomed Mog Pharau himself, and the Worldhorn, which was sounded by Nymeric, who you have said was an Anasurimbor King of the Aorsi (a people described as the great bulwark of the North). This raises the following questions: 1. Achamian mentions that the Heron Spear is lost, destroyed even in the sacking of Cenei by the Scylvendi barbarians. Is this a fact, or a belief? 2. What did the Heron Spear look like? Like your average spear, wood with an iron tip? 3. Nymeric sounds the Worldhorn over and over again. What powers does the Worldhorn have, how is it different from other horns and also, what does it look like, compared to other horns? 3. The mention of several Anasurimbors in the past prompts me to ask whether, at the present ( Prince of Nothing timeline), there are more Anasurimbors than the two living ones on the books.... Kellhus doesn't seem to think there are. view post


posted 11 Oct 2005, 17:10 by Mithfânion, Didact

Final shameless bump. Didn't want these threads to go to the archive unanswered :) view post


posted 19 Oct 2005, 12:10 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I actually can't answer any of these questions. The first because facts in Earwa have the same vexed relation to beliefs that they have here in the real world. The others because they would constitute out and out spoilers. As much as TTT reveals, the feature has yet to hit the stage. :wink: view post


posted 25 Oct 2005, 20:10 by Mithfânion, Didact

But the Worldhorn, is that like a regular horn or does it have hacve additional traits? Could you describe the look of it perhaps? view post


posted 26 Oct 2005, 13:10 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I have nothing down description-wise. But yes, it is a sorcerous artifact. view post


posted 08 Feb 2006, 17:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

So threading back to this thread post_TTT: 1) It seems that The Heron Spear was definitly lost. 2) It was a weapon of light. 3) The answer was yes, for a time :) Three questions: What I found strange was that the Heron Spear was actually a weapon used by the Inchoroi, by their King (Sil) no less. How then does it follow that it is the antidote to their greatest weapon, the No-God? Secondly, is there a chance we will see the Worldhorn again? I guess I ask because of my fascination with horns, I already loved it when I read about the Thunyeri horns pealing across the plains. Thirdly, outside of the Heron Spear, which is lost, are there still Inchoroi weapons of light remaining in Earwa? If so, may they turn up in Aspect Emperor? Or have they all been destroyed in the Cunu-Inchoroi wars? view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 06:02 by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Perhaps the Heron Spear was the only weapon that could bring down the No-God for mundane (non-sorcerous) reasons. The people of Earwa--Mena and Nonmen alike--seem to have a more or less medieval tech level, even Bronze Age at the time of Mengedda, with the exception of sorcery. If the No-God were immune to sorcery--which the glossary implies, what with the eleven chorae and all--that leaves them with only their swords and bows, which wouldn't seem to do much good against the thing that both you and I saw described. The Inchoroi, on the other hand, had space age weapons, and if the Heron Spear was the weapon of their king, it stands to reason it would be the most powerful. The whole thing reminds me justa little bit of the Gae Bulg. view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 16:02 by H, Auditor

I completely agree with Mog-Pharau, the Heron Spear is probably the most powerful mundane weapon in existance. What i really wonder about is where the Heron Spear is located. I guess it's possible someone has it, but doesn't realize what it is, but i find that unlikely... My off the wall guess: it's somewhere in Zeum... view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 16:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="H":1uqm832s]I completely agree with Mog-Pharau, the Heron Spear is probably the most powerful mundane weapon in existance. What i really wonder about is where the Heron Spear is located. I guess it's possible someone has it, but doesn't realize what it is, but i find that unlikely... My off the wall guess: it's somewhere in Zeum...[/quote:1uqm832s] The last time it was seen was when the Scylvendi carried it off. :) Of course that was quite some time ago, so it may or may not still be in their possession. view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 17:02 by H, Auditor

[quote="Entropic_existence":2m3wang8][quote="H":2m3wang8]I completely agree with Mog-Pharau, the Heron Spear is probably the most powerful mundane weapon in existance. What i really wonder about is where the Heron Spear is located. I guess it's possible someone has it, but doesn't realize what it is, but i find that unlikely... My off the wall guess: it's somewhere in Zeum...[/quote:2m3wang8] The last time it was seen was when the Scylvendi carried it off. :) Of course that was quite some time ago, so it may or may not still be in their possession.[/quote:2m3wang8] Yeah, taken by them in the sack of Cenei. But if it was among the Scylvendi, why hasn't it resurfaced? Zeum is really the only place that we haven't heard from, and is far enough away from the North so that the Consult wouldn't have found it and taken it back. Of cource, it could just be holding up some Scylvendi's tent, but that just seems anticlimactic. view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 18:02 by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

I'm thinking that the Heron Spear is just going to stay lost. The Scylvendi sack of Cenei and the Spear's subsequent loss is a nice "historical" touch, and seems like a good way to make it stay buried. view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 18:02 by unJon, Auditor

They won't need to find the Heron Spear. As soon as the Inchoroi find the Dunyain, the Dunyain will begin to rediscover the lost arts of the Tekne including the energy weapons. But that's just my crazy off the wall speculaton. view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 20:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

All, I agree that the Heron Spear is most likely non-sorcerous, insofar as that the Tekne is not a sorcerous craft. Clearly Mog Pharau's chorae did not deter it. I'm just curious about the relationship between the Heron being the most powerful weapon of the Inchoroi and how it is the sole thing capable of killing Lokung. Mog, I agree with you that it is very possible the Heron Spear will not be recovered. Because if the ultimate conclusion is just finding the Heron spear again, it's too much of a repetition of the First Apocalypse, isn't it? On the other hand it would be interesting to see it being used [b:26tdz8um]against[/b:26tdz8um] the world of Men, by the Consult. It was mentioned as having its whereabouts being unknown, rather than listed as destroyed, so clearly Scott left an opening there for future plot developments. I'm thinking more along the lines of Kellhus being the main opposition of the No-God, rather than an artifact. view post


posted 16 Feb 2006, 21:02 by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Well, on that count, why even launch the Apocalyptic invasion in the first place? Think about it. The No-God stilled all births during his reign. To annihilate humankind, all the Consult really had to do was sit tight somewhere with the No-God and wait for all then existing humans to die. Why bother fighting and exposing your great weapon to possible destruction? Hubris? Yes, not only do I think the Heron Spear [b:lraultrv]will[/b:lraultrv] stay lost, I think it [b:lraultrv]should[/b:lraultrv] stay lost. Although Kellhus's disposition vis a vis the Consult at the time of the Aspect-Emperor remains--to my mind--unresolved, it seems more likely to me that the conflict will revolve around stopping the No-God's resurrection rather than opposing it once reincarnated. Perhaps Kellhus will become its vessel? Rampant and, I admit, probably unjustified speculation. view post


posted 17 Feb 2006, 16:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

No comment. :wink: view post


posted 17 Feb 2006, 18:02 by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

There is a (somewhat weak, concerning the crushing and repeated victories of the Apocalyptic Consult) justification in the glossary regarding why the No-God took the field, but there is something else I don't quite understand. Seswatha led Nau-Cayûti into Golgotterath in 2140 to retrieve the Heron Spear (it is also not quite clear to me why Seswatch needed N-C so much that he had to lie to get him to come). However, the No-God did not appear until 2143. How did Seswatha know he would need the Spear? Is it possible that the nonmen informed him specifically of the No-God's coming over twenty years prior to its occurrence? view post


posted 17 Feb 2006, 18:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

[quote:348hw5rk]There is a (somewhat weak, concerning the crushing and repeated victories of the Apocalyptic Consult) justification in the glossary regarding why the No-God took the field[/quote:348hw5rk] I don't know why you call the justification weak; even though the Consult won many victories, that doesn't mean they emerged unscathed from these battles. Before the No-God's advent the High North did win some victories of their own, and after that...well invading and destroying one Norsirai nation after another would thin just about any army, even one as huge as the No-God's I think. [quote:348hw5rk] How did Seswatha know he would need the Spear?[/quote:348hw5rk] Because it was mankind's only hope. As long as the No-God lived, there could be no more births, and that means the utter annihilition of mankind within a few decades. The No-God had to be killed someday, and the Heron Spear was the only weapon powerful enough to defeat it. Even if Seswatha wasn't sure when, if ever, the No-God would take the field, he had to try to steal it or just resign himself to seeing humanity die for certain. [quote:348hw5rk]it is also not quite clear to me why Seswatch needed N-C so much that he had to lie to get him to come[/quote:348hw5rk] Well I'm sure Seswatha needed [i:348hw5rk]someone[/i:348hw5rk] with him; as it was said in TTT, he couldn't use sorcery without attracting the attention of the Maegendda. A sorcerer who can't use sorcery isn't much use...As for why it had to be Nau-Cayuti, not sure why it had to be him precisely, but it was said that he was the High North's greatest hero, so I imagine it was only logical to use his help when undertaking such a perilous quest. view post


posted 17 Feb 2006, 18:02 by Shryke, Candidate

Well, according to the Glossary, the reason it took so long for the Heron Spear to get used wa that the No-God never appeared on the field of battle. It wasn't until the stubborn resistance of the last of man at the Battle of Mengedda that the No-God was forced to take to the field in order to assure them victory. One can assume that Seswatha went for the Heron Spear knowing it would help them in some way. (We know he actually did it BEFORE the No-God was summoned, but perhaps he knew the No-God was coming. During one of Akka's dreams, he has some osrt of imagining about asaulting Golgotterath in tie to stop the No-God from being summoned, so perhaps he knew it was coming) In any event, I always assumed that the Consult, know ing that Seswatha was out there with the Heron Spear, kept the No-God safely away from him until they were forced to use him to break the men at Mengedda.\ As for the Heron Spear itself, it seems to be some kind of energy weapon, the last remaining one the Inchoroi brought with them to this planet. We know from the description of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars that the rest were eventually destroyed or stopped working. view post


posted 17 Feb 2006, 19:02 by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Ok, I can accept that resoning for Nau-Cayûti's presence. The more I read about the No-God, the less it seems like a simple tool of the Consult. Scott repeatedly attributes volition to it. It is not desribed as having been kept hidden, but rather as refusing to take the field. The best reason I can think of for not simply staying well out of sight for good and all until all Men die from natural causes (and hang what happens to the Consult) is that it requires sustenance. It was, after all, the Angel of Endless Hunger. Of course, if true this poses its own problem of what it was supposed to do after all the Men were dead. I suppose Seswatha may have had some intel that the Consult was summoning some sorcery-immune titan and reasoned that the legendary Spear was mankind's best hope, but of course this is all off-page reasoning on our part. :wink: view post


posted 18 Feb 2006, 10:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

Scott: [i:2deubkgd]What I found strange was that the Heron Spear was actually a weapon used by the Inchoroi, by their King (Sil) no less. How then does it follow that it is the antidote to their greatest weapon, the No-God? Secondly, is there a chance we will see the Worldhorn again? I guess I ask because of my fascination with horns, I already loved it when I read about the Thunyeri horns pealing across the plains. Thirdly, outside of the Heron Spear, which is lost, are there still Inchoroi weapons of light remaining in Earwa? If so, may they turn up in Aspect Emperor? Or have they all been destroyed in the Cunu-Inchoroi wars?[/i:2deubkgd] [b:2deubkgd] No comment ;)[/b:2deubkgd] Are you honestly saying that all three of these questions are dealt with in the next book(s)? view post


posted 18 Feb 2006, 20:02 by Shryke, Candidate

[quote:1h14rgw9]What I found strange was that the Heron Spear was actually a weapon used by the Inchoroi, by their King (Sil) no less. How then does it follow that it is the antidote to their greatest weapon, the No-God? [/quote:1h14rgw9] As I see it, the Heron Spear is an incredibly powerful NON-SORCEROUS long range weapon. This makes it a perfect thing to use against someone immune to sorcery and also surrounded by armies. Seems a fairly easy connection to make. This of course, sitll doesn't deal with why Seswatha went to find it BEFORE the No-God was summoned. But afterwords, the jump to using it doesn't seem like a hard one to make. [quote:1h14rgw9]Thirdly, outside of the Heron Spear, which is lost, are there still Inchoroi weapons of light remaining in Earwa? If so, may they turn up in Aspect Emperor? Or have they all been destroyed in the Cunu-Inchoroi wars? [/quote:1h14rgw9] I'm thinking they're all lost, destroyed or not in the possestion of the Consult. If they had them, they would've used them already. In the descriptions of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, they said the Nonmen only started to beat them back after they'd exhausted or destroyed all the Inchoroi weapons of light. view post


posted 19 Feb 2006, 03:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Shryke":2l6i68yg] Seems a fairly easy connection to make. This of course, sitll doesn't deal with why Seswatha went to find it BEFORE the No-God was summoned. But afterwords, the jump to using it doesn't seem like a hard one to make. [/quote:2l6i68yg] Remember that before the first Ordeal by Celmomas, Seswatha had been told by the Non-men that they feared the Inchoroi had retruned to Golgoterath from all over the world, where they had been scattered by the Non-men after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. And the Mengeada (sp?) School (the Consult) and Inchoroi had resumed the dreadful work of the Inchoroi that was the No-God. The No-God was not a surprise, nor was it new. It had been something the Inchoroi had been working on for a very long time. So Seswatha knew in advance, and knew of the Heron Spear. I imagine that when he went to get the Heron spear there had already been something to tip him off that the Inchoroi/Consult were close to being able to summon the No-God and complete their work. view post


posted 19 Feb 2006, 04:02 by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Really? I thought that the No-God kind of came out of left field. Can you cite something that shows that it was a long-known project of the Consult? view post


posted 19 Feb 2006, 21:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Mog-Pharau":19imcmmc]Really? I thought that the No-God kind of came out of left field. Can you cite something that shows that it was a long-known project of the Consult?[/quote:19imcmmc] I only have access to TTT right now (temporarily living somewhere for another few months and don't have the other books at hand until then) so I can't make the quotes for any of the passages from TDTCB or TWP and so don't have any direct quotes. But from reading through the glossary it makes sense to me. (After all it is specifically mentioned that Seswatha went for the Heron Spear before the No-God's appearance because he suspected it was the only means to defeat him, and I don't think the dates are accidental). Seswatha was also warned by the Non-men that they feared the Consult had rediscovered "dread and terrible" work, etc. For some reason I was always under the impression when reading the series that while the No-God's nature perhaps was not known in advance, they knew the Consult and Inchoroi were working on something specific to bring about the Apocalypse. Since Seswatha and the No-God are mentioned by name prior to the actual summoning of the No-God I can only assume those "in the know" had some knowledge of what the Consult was working on. view post


posted 21 Feb 2006, 06:02 by Inner_visions, Candidate

Maybe the Inchoiroi were angels and they were given the weapons of light by something from the Oustide or maybe they are just artifacts of the 'Outside'. Mog-Pharau was the abscence of life kind-of right, the emboidiment of 'evil'? SO maybe the spear is the embodiment of good, a weapon with the 'influence of God'. Maybe it's made of souls and Mog-Pharau didn't actually have a soul so he died because of the anti to real reaction? Maybe the No-God was a physical embodiment of the 'Void' (oustide and void are different things?) and the spear was a physical embodiment of the 'Outside'? I'm just throwing out ideas so poo-poo them if they're dumb. view post


posted 21 Feb 2006, 15:02 by Shryke, Candidate

Sorry bro, but it's nothing like that. Spoilers ahead. * * * * * * * * * Inchoroi = Aliens Heron Spear = "Weapon of Light" that the Non-men took from the Inchoroi King after killing him in the first major Inchoroi-Nonmen engagement No-God = no bloody clue view post


posted 21 Feb 2006, 17:02 by RedShift, Candidate

Does noone else see "weapon of light" and think laser? view post


posted 21 Feb 2006, 18:02 by unJon, Auditor

Scott has answered that it is some sort of energy weapon but would not specify laser versus particle beam vs. something else. The Void and the Outside are different. The Outside is where you go when you die. The Void is where you go if you get in a rocket ship. view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 13:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

No comment. :wink: view post


posted 03 Mar 2006, 04:03 by Inner_visions, Candidate

If it's a pew pew lazer I'm gonan be sad... I'm pretty sure that Mr Bakker is much more original than that... view post


posted 03 Mar 2006, 09:03 by Diem Kaye, Candidate

I think a laser is a bit more original than having it merely be some 'holy weapon'. The only thing I'm torn on is whether I want it to be found again. Because, on one hand, it does seem pretty obvious that it's going to come back, and if my guess is at all right, Akka will probably be whose possession it ends up in. Now considering that by the time the Aspect Emperor comes around Akka will be almost 70, I don't think it'll stay in his possession for long. I'm looking towards either one of Kellhus's kids or some new character that hasn't been introduced yet. So although I doubt anyone will be surprised if it does show up, I have a feeling a lot of people would be pissed if Scott gave so much attention to it and then just said, "Actually, it [i:3g3tbybe]was[/i:3g3tbybe] destroyed the whole time! Ha ha, gotcha, suckers!" And then, one last question for Scott, who will hopefully be able to answer this (and hopefully I haven't missed this little shred of info somewhere in the glossary) without giving anything away for future storylines. So here's the question. Why is the Heron Spear called the [i:3g3tbybe]Heron[/i:3g3tbybe] Spear? Was it because someone thought the light shot out of the spear just like a heron? Or was it just one of those things where you're sitting back late at night and you think, "You know what? That name kicks ass! Heron Spear, it is then!" Just out of idle curiosity. view post


posted 03 Mar 2006, 12:03 by Darlan Laerdon, Commoner

[quote="Diem Kaye":d1uj1uic]I think a laser is a bit more original than having it merely be some 'holy weapon'. The only thing I'm torn on is whether I want it to be found again. Because, on one hand, it does seem pretty obvious that it's going to come back, and if my guess is at all right, Akka will probably be whose possession it ends up in. Now considering that by the time the Aspect Emperor comes around Akka will be almost 70, I don't think it'll stay in his possession for long. I'm looking towards either one of Kellhus's kids or some new character that hasn't been introduced yet. So although I doubt anyone will be surprised if it does show up, I have a feeling a lot of people would be pissed if Scott gave so much attention to it and then just said, "Actually, it [i:d1uj1uic]was[/i:d1uj1uic] destroyed the whole time! Ha ha, gotcha, suckers!" And then, one last question for Scott, who will hopefully be able to answer this (and hopefully I haven't missed this little shred of info somewhere in the glossary) without giving anything away for future storylines. So here's the question. Why is the Heron Spear called the [i:d1uj1uic]Heron[/i:d1uj1uic] Spear? Was it because someone thought the light shot out of the spear just like a heron? Or was it just one of those things where you're sitting back late at night and you think, "You know what? That name kicks ass! Heron Spear, it is then!" Just out of idle curiosity.[/quote:d1uj1uic] As stated in the glossary, the Heron Spear is called so because the weapon itself vaugly resembles a Heron. view post


posted 03 Mar 2006, 15:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I thought that the glossary reference was refering to it vaguely looking like a spear :) But it could be both. view post


Heron Spear posted 03 Mar 2006, 19:03 by Conphas, Commoner

[quote:2pypw50c]I thought that the glossary reference was refering to it vaguely looking like a spear But it could be both.[/quote:2pypw50c] I took the glossary to mean it looked vaguely like a Heron (the bird). Which gave me the impression of a laser/energy weapon on a tripod. The tripod gives it the "Heron" part of the name and the "lance" or "spear" of light that it emits gives it the "spear" part of the name. Those are my musings. view post


posted 04 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

I don't know, that sounds kind of confused to me. The glossary merely states that it was the Heron Spear, "so named because of it's unique shape". A heron: http://www.chicagobotanic.org/research/ ... /Heron.jpg This sounds silly, but in order for this to be correct, Earwa would need to have herons just like we have in our own world. I'm thinking the Heron refers to something else. Maybe Scott could give some enlightenment about it's shape? view post


posted 05 Mar 2006, 11:03 by RedShift, Candidate

I just see it as a laser thingamajig with that heron-neck wiggle in it. Fairly unique shape for a "spear". view post


posted 05 Mar 2006, 16:03 by unJon, Auditor

[quote="Mithfânion":3qmw7327] This sounds silly, but in order for this to be correct, Earwa would need to have herons just like we have in our own world. I'm thinking the Heron refers to something else. Maybe Scott could give some enlightenment about it's shape?[/quote:3qmw7327] Why is that silly? Earwa has humans just like we have in our world. They also have dogs that bark, etc. I think a heron is a heron. view post


posted 05 Mar 2006, 19:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, he wouldn't use the word Heron unless there were herons in Earwa, I like the idea of it having that distinctive "heron neck" s-curve in it, that would make sense. Think of the zat guns in Stargate, they sort of have that curve to them when they are activated. (Not that I am saying that is what the heron spear looks like, it would likely be alot bigger) but it would make sense. view post


posted 05 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Seeing as the Inchoroi mothership was beleived to be alive. What are the odds that the Heron Spear is also somehow a living weapon. view post


posted 05 Mar 2006, 22:03 by Diem Kaye, Candidate

An interesting idea, Poet, especially since we all know that many of the other Inchoroi light weapons lost their power somewhere over the years. I don't think it would be though, just because I imagine Seswatha would have had something to say about that in his dreams considering how long he had it. Though, on the other hand, it would make a nice surprise, wouldn't it? I don't know, so far to me, Conphas's idea of a weapon on a tripod sounds the most realistic. view post


posted 05 Mar 2006, 22:03 by unJon, Auditor

I agree. Weapon + tripod + S-curve = most plausible explanation I have heard. view post


posted 06 Mar 2006, 01:03 by arelius19, Commoner

but how would you combine a tripod an s-curve on a weapon? it would need to be a distance thing to sit on a tripod, but what would the S-curve be? view post


posted 06 Mar 2006, 04:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Maybe it is on a tripod, maybe not. But just the desciprtion of the Anaphoxus (or however you spell his name :) holding it in his hand while in the chariot, and using it while in the chariot somehoe a tripod just doesn't come to mind. It also, to me, doesn't seem to mesh with how Sil, the Inchoroi King during the CI wars was described as fighting with it (not that the techniques was described but you know what I mean). Hmmm this is really incoherent. Basically I'm saying that it's description of the situations in which it was used would lead me to not think of it having a tripod. view post


posted 06 Mar 2006, 18:03 by unJon, Auditor

I feel very wishy-washy now, but I am bowing to EE's argument and now thinking that it is a hand-held weapon. Still like the S-curve bit. view post


posted 06 Mar 2006, 19:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Im starting to see light sabers and what not all right im exaggerating but why is the Heron Spear referred to as a projectile weapon. Was this mentioned specificly or could it be an actual spear that has "lightsaber" qualites with an S shaped end. I fancy the idea that its not a projectile like weapon. view post


posted 06 Mar 2006, 19:03 by Diem Kaye, Candidate

I'm pretty sure people would have had a lot more trouble trying to kill the No-God if they'd actually had to get within melee range to kill him. view post


posted 06 Mar 2006, 19:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I know but fun to watch im sure. Plus a spear can be thrown so not real close. view post


posted 07 Mar 2006, 00:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Just the manner in which the Heron-Spear and the other Inchoroi "weapons of light" are described in the glossary and in passing references makes one infer a projectile "particle beam" weapon of some kind. view post


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