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Cnaiur's prowess posted 04 August 2005 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by Mithfânion, Didact

Scott,

Do you think that there is someone in the world of the Three Seas (incl. Zeum) who could beat Cnaiur in single combat?

I could imagine that someone could take him out, one on one, by the use of great sorcery, but that is not what I mean to find out. Is there anyone who could beat him in single combat, be they man or Nonmen (or otherwise) without applying magic? view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 04 August 2005 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by target, Auditor

Doesn't Kellhus defeat Cnaiur in TDTCB, just before they concoct the ruse that Kellhus is a Prince from Atrithau? Or would you consider Kellhus, as a Dunyain, to be more than a man? view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 04 August 2005 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, yes, Kellhus did defeat Cnaiur, but I'm sure Mith knows that.

As to who else could defeat him, well, it's a big world, with a lot of skilled fighters. I'm sure there could be many among the Norsirai or Ketyai who could do it (leaving it to Scott to confirm) or some 7-foot Zeumi sword-dancer for that matter.

The Nonmen are supposed to be very good fighters (just check the fight between Kellhus and Mekeritrig, where even Kellhus was hard-pressed for a time.) Then again, Scott has said somewhere on the board (probably in my questions thread) that they don't survive long in the Three Seas, which begs the question: if they are so superior as fighters to "normal" men, how can they not last long there? Are whole armies sent to defeat them? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 04 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by saintjon, Auditor

I'm sure there are members of other races who could take him, and I would guess that there are non-dunyain humans who could as well, I've been wanting to ask for awhile though who would win between Cnaiur and Yalgrotta?

I'm not sure whether I'd rather this were a spoiler question or not! view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 05 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Atanvarno, Peralogue

Hardly combat in the traditional sense, but sorcery could do it... at least until Kellhus gets hold of the Gnosis. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 05 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Mithfânion, Didact

I've been wanting to ask for awhile though who would win between Cnaiur and Yalgrotta?


Hmm, a worthy thought for the day <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Atan, I was talking about who could defeat Cnaiur rather than Kellhus himself.

WL,

I was thinking there might rank some among the Nonmen warriors certainly, as well as the Inchoroi. Of men though, I would expect the number to be limited (so little is known of Zeum, I have no idea if candidates would be present there). view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 05 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by target, Auditor

Maybe the reason Nonmen struggle to survive in the Three Seas is due to the climate or something like that. A weak idea, but an idea. Shoot me down someone <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 05 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Atanvarno, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Mithfânion&quot;:gvv7kkdy
Atan, I was talking about who could defeat Cnaiur rather than Kellhus himself.[/quote:gvv7kkdy]Sorry, I was more commenting on the way Kellhus, despite himself, seems to be becoming more protective of Cnaiur. Should have made myself clearer.

Of course, in single combat, starting at a hundred paces, a bowman could do the job. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 05 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by target, Auditor

That's because archers are awesome <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> However, he did seem to have quite a bit of success avoiding the Kianene archers when fleeing from them during the Battle of the Slopes, and that was at pretty close range.

I suppose that , even starting at 100 paces, he could try to duck and weave. I wouldn;t put money on him surviving, but you never know. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Mithfânion&quot;:2v732lab
I was thinking there might rank some among the Nonmen warriors certainly, as well as the Inchoroi. Of men though, I would expect the number to be limited (so little is known of Zeum, I have no idea if candidates would be present there).[/quote:2v732lab]

Well, I don't know about that . . . The sword-dancers are supposed to be incredible fighters, to judge from the "fee" the Emperor had to pay to get one, and his poor showing against Kellhus is hardly indicative.

Then again, I think a mistake that is often made is to consider characters we get to know in the books as the best in the whole world, when that may not be necessarily true, or that new characters with superior abilities won't be introduced in the future.

WRT Cnaiur himself, the blurb for TTT describes him as falling even deeper into madness, so this is not a good recommendation for him being able to defeat someone who has even a modicum of ability and a working brain . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

As to the Inchoroi, there are only two of them left and due to their nature, they could adopt almost any physical shape, so what's to stop them from forging some 500-ton biomass and simply squashing Cnaiur like a bug? <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> In short, I don't really see the Inchoroi doing any physical fighting.

Quote: &quot;target&quot;:2v732lab
Maybe the reason Nonmen struggle to survive in the Three Seas is due to the climate or something like that. A weak idea, but an idea. Shoot me down someone.[/quote:2v732lab]

Since they once ruled all of Earwa, this isn't a very convincing argument . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Actually, the Tusk damns the Nonmen, and demands of the faithful to kill them on sight. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Only the Few can see the Few, but anyone can see a Nonman. Considering the reaction that the Scarlett Spires recieved when they paraded throught the camp of the Holy War and they were human and part of the Holy War, a Nonman is quickly going to be up to his or her ass in trouble. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Cynical Cat&quot;:3j2x2939
Only the Few can see the Few, but anyone can see a Nonman. Considering the reaction that the Scarlett Spires recieved when they paraded throught the camp of the Holy War and they were human and part of the Holy War, a Nonman is quickly going to be up to his or her ass in trouble.[/quote:3j2x2939]

Yes, but I was pointing out another thing. If you go back to the scene where Kellhus confronts the Nonman in the North, there was nothing that showed him he was in the presence of something not human. Only when the Nonman starts talking does Kellhus realize this is a Nonman. This means they are very similar to humans in body shape. The only distinctive difference might be the face, which is always described as inhumanly beautiful.

So if a Nonman wears armor, a helm covering his face (resembling any warrior/noble in the Three Seas) and avoids prolonged contact with humans, it would be much harder to figure him out as a Nonman.

And if that happens, and if the Nonmen are so superior to men in the fighting department, I'd like to know how they can be despatched so easily, since it would take large bodies of men to do that.

I'm not saying they can't be wiped out quickly, I'm more interested in the mechanics of the thing (this is a query for you, Scott, BTW <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->). view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Deerow, Auditor

Scott, maybe this has been covered previously, are the Nonmen susceptible to the Chorae? Why or why not? And if so does this play some role in how they have been dispatched in the past? view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by target, Auditor

Quote: &quot;White Lord&quot;
Since they once ruled all of Earwa, this isn't a very convincing argument . . . quote]

Good point, i had forgotten that <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> Never mind. Could it possibly be that humans have mastered ironwork or something similar? Weapons and armour can go a long way to defeating something that relies on its physical adantages, as does archery. It may not be the most noble way of killing an enemy but it does the trick. Or have i missed some detail of the text again? <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Deerow, Auditor

I was under the impression that the Nonmen had superior weaponry. There is reference to different types of steel which places the Nonmen weaponry at the top, followed by Dunyain, followed by everyone else...something like that anyway.

Damn. I have to re-read the books again. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Yes, Nonmen have nimil, which is harder than Dunyain steel, which is harder than the best steel in the Three Seas, according to what Scott has said.

As to Chorae, I would guess they work in the same way for the Nonmen as for men. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 06 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by target, Auditor

Damn you White Lord, you have a n answer for everything <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

It definately remainsto be sen then why the nonmen don't last long in Earwa. For the moment i'm stumped for reasons. I wonder if Scott will shed any light? Or if the White Lord himself has any ideas? view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

I think we need a little recap here. Basically I asked Scott a while back if many Nonmen were in the ranks of the Holy War (hidden of course) since they crave trauma so much. What better place to be in, right?

He said there weren't any, and that Nonmen "tend not to" last long in the Three Seas. Later he added that the Tusk has the same attitude towards the Nonmen that it has towards sorcerers, and calls for their extermination.

All well and fine, but to my mind it doesn't tally with what we know of them and their abilities, and simply because the Tusk damns them doesn't mean that every man everywhere will kill them on sight. There was, after all, such a thing as the Nonman Tutelage, when Men and Nonmen were allied for centuries.

I wouldn't find it hard to believe there are men willing to join Nonmen.

I also think we need some more input from Scott on this. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Erthaelion, Candidate

But how could you even think that attitudes possessed thousands of years ago are in any way translatable to the present time? If the Tusk condemns Nonmen, and the better part of the Three Seas is Inrithi, wouldn't Men who were to follow Nonmen damn themselves, as well?

Its not a logical argument that what was believed long ago will be part of a belief system centuries later.

I, also, am rather interested to know just how Nonmen are so quickly exterminated when they venture into the realm of civilization, however... view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

To me your statement makes little sense too. Let's look at the position of sorcerers. How many hate them, how many are willing to enforce the Tusk law against them and how many do so?

As far as the Tusk is concerned, there is no difference between sorcerers and Nonmen. What I said (or implied) in my previous post is that the Tusk laws can, and many times are, ignored. It happened in the Ancient North (for a time, because even there I guess the relationship between men and Nonmen was rocky) and there is no reason to think it couldn't happen in the Three Seas. Mekeritrig, the Nonman who fights Kellhus in Book 1 is also a powerful Gnostic sorcerer. He also appears to enjoy fighting with his sword. How many more like him are there? How many more greedy nobles or sorcerers willing to give assistance in exchange for instruction?

I also think that as far as the Three Seas are concerned, what the "man in the street" thinks is irrelevant, and what the nobles do to further their interests is not always parallel to the Tusk laws, and they care little about that too.

That's why I find this "killing out of hand" situation a bit strange.

I still think we'll have to wait for Scott to give us something definite . . . view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by H, Auditor

Perhaps they don't last long because they are mostly pathologically insane (by our standards)? I doubt if anyone wouldn't notice a guy who insanely beautiful with a cloak of faces on... Not to say they all would be doing this, but wouldn't a nonman stick out like a sort of sore thumb anyway? A line of soldiers, and one (who's incredably beautiful mind you) isn't nervous or scared or even fazed by the violence and trauma, in fact he seems to be craving it. Plus, he's at least ten times any fighter most have ever seen. I think some one like that would, as Scott said, "not tend to last long" before they call out the 'dogs' so to speak to put 'em down... Sure, could a nonman kill 5-10 guys, yes. But could he really kill alot of well trained nobles with chorae? Probably not. The nobles are the one's who'd realize what the nonman was, and thus be the one's who would probably kill 'em, meaning the killers would be well prepared and well trained... view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Mithfânion, Didact

WL,

Correct me if I'm wrong but from your posts I get the impression that you underrate Cnaiur somewhat. I'm not saying there aren't any men from Zeum or the Three Seas that can't defeat him in single combat, I am however saying that I think the number of men who would be able to do that seem very limited to me.

Outside of the obvious, like a Nonman warrior or Kellhus ( a prodigy even among the Dunyain) there are few I can think of. That's not because of an innate desire to equate the known characters with the strongest characters, as you suggest, but because Cnaiur is the most powerful and most skilled warrior of his race. Which is to say that he is the greatest warrior of a race in which men are born and bred for war, in fact they are the very People of War. That Cnaiur would be the most accomplished warrior there would mean that there are very few (if any at all) who might outdo him one-on-one, considering the less martial, more pampered nature of the Southern nations.

I'd love to know more about Zeum though.

On the question of why Nonmen don't last long, some insight from Scott would indeed be appreciated. If I had to speculate, the first and only thing that comes to mind is that of Nonmen, there are few, and when they venture into hostile lands alone, they will suffer the same fate as others, regardless of their skills. I imagine even they might be taken unawares at some point. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Mith, some of what you say may well be true, but the fact that the Scylvendi call themselves the People of War, or that they fight whenever they get the chance does not make them inherently or in fact better fighters than others. From what Achamian tells Kellhus even the Scylvendi feared the Norsirai of antiquity as warriors, which makes me think that at that time the Norsirai were in fact stronger (and may still be, there is no reference to battles between Norsirai and Scylvendi in the Three Seas). Also, I may grant you that Cnaiur is the strongest of his race, but I think we have no way of knowing how they compare with the Zeumi, who are apparently ruled by "warlords" from the little tidbits we have of them in the books. I also think that if we speak of individual prowess, we must not mix the collective success of a people like the Scylvendi and compare it to that of others.

Sure, as a people the Scylvendi have bested many times the peoples of the Three Seas, but even Cnaiur has learned to respect some of them as warriors.

But notwithstanding all that I simply think that Cnaiur may be becoming too unhinged to fight with his natural cunning anymore. If he becomes nothing more than a mad beast unleashed, I wonder who couldn't defeat him with a bit of intelligent fighting. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Mithfânion, Didact

Wl



There are some who need their rage to fight as well as they can. They harnass it, and use it to its full extent. Cnaiur hasn't been overly hampered by his rage sofar when it comes to combat. Maybe it will in TTT, then again, maybe not. We'll see.
view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 07 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Mithfânion&quot;:1c0axop2
Quote: &quot;White Lord&quot;:1c0axop2
I also think that if we speak of individual prowess, we must not mix the collective success of a people like the Scylvendi and compare it to that of others. [/quote:1c0axop2]

Well if that is truly so you shouldn't have brought up the collective success of the Ancient Norsirai <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->[/quote:1c0axop2]

Ah, well, look at the context. You mention the Scylvendi as the more or less unique and invincible People of War. I oppose the Norsirai who may have been even better. Only later do I say this is irrelevant to the point being discussed, which is proven also by the Scylvendi/Norsirai comparison. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

I should also add that you sidestepped the issue of the Norsirai of the present. They are very much reduced in numbers from the times of the Ancient North, but I guess not very much reduced in spirit, and the battle scenes featuring them are in every way comparable to those featuring the Scylvendi. Add to that that the Scylvendi have never been extremely numerous, and I can reasonably suppose a Norsirai victory over a Scylvendi host even in the present.

But I think it's time to wind this debate up. To recapitulate, we don't at all disagree on the main point, namely that there are men out there who could beat Cnaiur in a fight. It's just that I claim they are more numerous than what you believe. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Again, I'm eagerly awaiting Scott's input to this thread . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 08 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by saintjon, Auditor

I don't think there are many who could defeat Cnaiur, I think he'd definitely out-perform your average Zeumi sword-dancer, just compare how that Zeumi did against to how Cnaiur did. Sure they both got owned but Cnaiur is:

a) the only world-born man who's been able to surprise kellhus in a fight

b) also the only one to have struck him (IIRC he landed a punch or something, it's been a long time and I'd check this but I don't have my book)

Also, Cnaiur doesn't seem to put much stock in a cool,rational style when he fights, he seems to get BETTER the more crazy he is. Well, when you think about the scylvendi practice their sword style from childhood. Kellhus is unimpressed by it's simplicity until he sees that it works very well coupled with power. I think when Cnaiur really loses it, well it's not like he'd be fighting with his mind much anyways, and the more worked up he is he probably gets a good adrenaline boost and a higher pain tolerance to boot. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 08 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Cynical Cat, Auditor

White Lord, are you forgetting that mighty Norisai civilization that collapsed in the First Apocalypse? Even with the No-God. the Wracu, Sranc, Scylvendi et. al., the Consult didn't win. Of course the Scylvendi respect the Nosirai's prowess. Think about how often they must have been beaten before the rise of the Consult.

As for the Nonmen description, I don't recall any mention of its face. The Sranc have beautiful faces. What it is clear, even covered in full armour and clothes to handle the Northern climate, the Nonman is clearly inhuman (to a perceptive observer) at close range.

Could it be possible for a Nonman to pass as human in the Three Seas? Possibly. But it would have to handle most of its bodily functions in privacy all the time. And why would it risk extreme danger to do so? The coming of the Second Apocalypse does strike me as a reason, so we might see one. And since the Fanim don't follow the Tusk, they might not see Nonmen as abominations.

As for the Nonmen's dominance of men in the north, that dates from a periond both before the coming of the Tusk (if I recall the timeline correctly) and a time when Nonmen were more numerous and better organized (and probably saner). view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 08 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Cynical Cat&quot;:1nujf3mm
White Lord, are you forgetting that mighty Norisai civilization that collapsed in the First Apocalypse? Even with the No-God. the Wracu, Sranc, Scylvendi et. al., the Consult didn't win. Of course the Scylvendi respect the Nosirai's prowess. Think about how often they must have been beaten before the rise of the Consult.[/quote:1nujf3mm]

You must have confused me with Mithfanion. I've been saying what you just wrote the whole time.

Quote: &quot;Cynical Cat&quot;:1nujf3mm
As for the Nonmen description, I don't recall any mention of its face. The Sranc have beautiful faces. What it is clear, even covered in full armour and clothes to handle the Northern climate, the Nonman is clearly inhuman (to a perceptive observer) at close range.[/quote:1nujf3mm]

That's simply not true. The Nonmen are the equivalent of Tolkien's elves, and I guess bear the same difference with regard to humans. In other words, they may be more beautiful, more refined or whatever, but certainly that is the only thing that would make them stand out.


Quote: &quot;Cynical Cat&quot;:1nujf3mm
As for the Nonmen's dominance of men in the north, that dates from a periond both before the coming of the Tusk (if I recall the timeline correctly) and a time when Nonmen were more numerous and better organized (and probably saner).[/quote:1nujf3mm]

The Nonmen dominated men in all of Earwa before the invasions described in the Tusk overthrew them. They were never more numerous than men, especially not so after the Four Tribes conquered Earwa. view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 08 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by H, Auditor

We're a bit off topic here, but wasn't the Consult created after the First Apocalypse to try to bring about the No-God's return?

Plus, it seems natural (at least to me) that Norisai would probably have faught in highly organized groups (perhaps a phalanx), so it would be obvious why the Scylvendi would respect them, in the same way the Germanic tribes respected the strength of the Legions.

EDIT: Nevermind that first question, i was making up things in my head... view post


Cnaiur's prowess posted 08 August 2005 in Author Q &amp; ACnaiur's prowess by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Quote: &quot;White Lord&quot;:jdkng9qy

You must have confused me with Mithfanion. I've been saying what you just wrote the whole time.[/quote:jdkng9qy]

I did, my apologies.



That's simply not true. The Nonmen are the equivalent of Tolkien's elves, and I guess bear the same difference with regard to humans. In other words, they may be more beautiful, more refined or whatever, but certainly that is the only thing that would make them stand out.


They are equivalent of elves, but we have never seen their faces. The Sranc, who are orc equivalents, have beautiful faces not hideous ones. We know that they are superior to humans, we don't know that Scott has decided to make them more beautiful. We know that Kelhus was immediately able to tell the differance at close range despite the Nonman wearing heavy armor. That he was beautiful is your conjecture. If he is beautiful and has cat's eyes or pointed ears, then even ordinary humans will pick up on it if he or she sees those features.




The Nonmen dominated men in all of Earwa before the invasions described in the Tusk overthrew them. They were never more numerous than men, especially not so after the Four Tribes conquered Earwa.


The were almost assuredly more numerous than they are now and that was my point. As they can't breed, their numbers (and thus their power) is in perpetual decline. In the latter periods, their dominance seemed to be more cultural and social than based on brute force. view post


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