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The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 23 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by bovine_buddha, Commoner

I was rereading the Prince of Nothing when some details struck me as quite odd.

First, assume that the Holy War is somehow controlled or influenced by the Consult, since we know they want to remove the Cishaurim from the facé of Ëarwa from The Warrior Prince, or so I remember. The novels are quite unclear on the issue whether it was the Cishaurim or the Consult which assassinated Sasheoka, the former leader of the Scarlet Spires. Some theories pose that Mallahaet/Möeghus orchestrated that event to gather Ëarwa's people in front of Shimeh for some as of yet unknown purpose, also secretly commaning Maithanet to do his bidding, while another likely scenario is that the Consult did the act in order to secure their future help, with Maithanet as their pawn. No matter, this information is obviously overheard by the skin spy following Achamian around in the beginning of Prince of Nothing, later killing Geshrunni. So in an way, the Consult knows of the war between the Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim. Thus, the question about how Maithianet knows about it can be solved by either theory.

We know that the Consult are aware of these events, and maybe party to them as well. How come then Skeaös reaction when Skauras reveals that the Scarlet Spires have joined the Holy War? This is clearly a moment of genuine surprise on his part, speaking out of terms in front of his Emperor. Since we know Skeaös is a skin spy of the Consult, shouldn't he already know about it? Or at least suspect they had allied, since he knows about the secret war.

There are three solutions which might solve this paradox. 1: Skauras has not yet been replaced by a skin spy. 2: The Consult keeps its skin spies in the dark, on a need-to-know basis (kind of weird) or 3: The allegiance was in fact not arranged by the Consult, which would remove Maithanet's ties to the Consult. Thus Skeaös was only surprised by of the depth of Eleäzaras hatred, commiting their School to a Holy War.

Since the first two reasons seem quite strange, the third one might be possible, setting the Cishaurim as the masterminds behind the whole conflict... Thus making the Consult their unwitting servants, since they avidly try to make the Holy War succesful (Skeaös tryinh to dissuade Xerius's Indenture and so forth).

I don't have details from the Warrior Prince fresh in mind, so maybe I'm overlooking something. But still, any thoughts?

EDIT: Maybe this should have been in The Warrior Prince forum or even the Prince of Nothing forum, but they're not as active... So I posted it here instead. Sue me <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 24 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by diarmuid, Peralogue

in all kindness my friend may i say...

The Warrior Prophet

that being said you raise some interesting points...

perhaps the consult has merely come in to action, as it where, as a result of the holy wars harbringers..

wouldn't take a dunyain to see that in the three seas there would aris such a conflict of some sort

to static a situation to remain constant

maybe all follows from that condition..and the Consult merely knew they needed a ride somewhere and grabbed a passing cart...

until further proof comes along i am gonna have trouble with Maithanet being either a Consult member or tool...unwitting or no

and I have no problem beleiving the skin spies are kept i the dark as you say

they are not of the Consult but merely constructs thereof I would guess...

interesting questions tho' view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 24 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by anor277, Didact

Just a few remarks, I think it is certainly clear that the Cishaurim assassinated Sasheoka and not the Consult. Why? We have Iyokus recollection of the encounter, and he relates that the sorcery did not cause a “sound” or a stain on the Onta or whatever you wish to call it. Consult sorcery, as far as we know, is Gnostic, which certainly has a sorcerous stain.

By the same reasoning, it is also not possible for skin spies to be sorcerors. They are non-magical creatures that are indetectable to actual sorcerors, who would readily detect the mark of sorcery (at least the non-Cishaurim variety). view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:15v05hl0
By the same reasoning, it is also not possible for skin spies to be sorcerors. They are non-magical creatures that are indetectable to actual sorcerors, who would readily detect the mark of sorcery (at least the non-Cishaurim variety).[/quote:15v05hl0]

This has been bothering me for some time . . . Can Tekne constructs really not be sorcerers?

Remember Scott has said sorcery is genetic in origin. Also the Inchoroi were not sorcerers when they first came to Earwa. The point being that the Mark issue is that a sorcerous construct bears a certain kind of mark that warns sorcerers of its sorcerous origin. But sorcerers themselves have a mark, their blood stain. So is it really impossible for the Consult to construct receptacles, genetically manipulated (from Nonman Quya genes maybe?) to enable an Inchoroi (or whoever) to wield sorcery? And show exactly the kind of Mark every normal sorcerer bears?

Remember that Achamian (who is our source of information on this issue) does not know what headways the Consult has made with the Tekne. He's scared shitless when he sees the skin-spy, thinks the Consult could even resurrect the No-God (who is definitely not your average skin-spy). From his initial remarks it seems you can create living constructs with sorcery, but this is certainly a lot more crude than what the Tekne can do, and if we get back to the Consult Synthese (also a Tekne construct), which is the shell for an Inchoroi, and that this Inchoroi can work sorcery, while the first Inchoroi couldn't, well you see what I'm driving at . . . view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Just adding a few more considerations on my previous post:

Basically what Achamian and other sorcerers have looked at is how you could substitute a non-sorcerer with a clone that another sorcerer would not recognize as a sorcerous artifact. This can be done easily with the Tekne.

On the other hand, if you want to substitute a sorcerer with a construct that can work sorcery, but does not bear the signs of a sorcerous construct, the Tekne can (very probably) be of help as well, as long as you don't attempt to transfer the soul or the consciousness (of a Consult member, for example) from an existing vessel to your construct, since I assume this can be done by sorcery alone and would leave some sign.

So if you are content to use the same hardwired, sexual control mechanisms the Consult uses, to control the actions of your skin-sorcerer, then you have achieved your object. However, if you want to have first-hand involvement, as a member of the Consult top management, you have to find a way of transferring the soul/consciousness into the vessel without leaving a sorcerous trace. Cishaurim sorcery, anyone?

The Cishaurim and the Consult are enemies. Why?

I assume Consult infiltration, in a bid to gain the Psukhe for the reason above. If Moenghus was with the Cishaurim at the time, it is possible he was responsible for the detection of the intruder/s, so this whole Cishaurim/Consult business would be explained . . .

As to the Cishaurim/Scarlet Spires enmity . . . well, let us say I suspect the Consult may be meddling in the affairs of the Schools the same way they are interfering in the business of the Courts . . .

Also, it's probable that, knowing the Consult is increasing its activity in the Three Seas as a prelude to the Apocalypse, Moenghus decided to engineer the Holy War, basically deceiving the Consult in thinking they could use/control it, and at the same time he could have ordered the assassination of Sasheoka as a way of getting the Scarlet Spires to Shimeh, expecting them to suffer some sort of epiphany in the meantime, so as to have them effectively (as the largest School in the Three Seas) on his side by the time the Apocalypse starts.

Comments welcome! view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

The even more scary possibility is that Moenghus is willing to let the Cishaurim and Scarlet schoolmen kill each other just to get Kelhus to Shimeh. Maybe he figures that once Kelhus learns sorcery, either on the way, or though him, that they won't need the other schools. (Except maybe the Mandate, which might fall into line once they figure out who they are dealing with...)

I personally don't think that the Consult started the war between the Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim. The method of the attack was Pushke - the whole forehead lights coming from the outside business. I wonder though if the nature of the Pushke is what the Consult finds threatening - maybe the Pushke is as mysterious to them as it is to the rest of the Three Seas and therefore must be destroyed or appropriated.

Is there a discussion about the Pushke anywhere on the forum? I am not a huge metaphysics person, so I miss alot of this stuff, but I wonder if the lack of sorcerous mark and the way it looks, as if straight from Outside has something to do with why the Consult has its panties in such a twist. They don't seem terribly stressed out by the other schools (except the Mandate, which has effectively been neutralized through evasion and making them a laughing stock). view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

I think WL's comment is excellent, about the Consult using the Psukhe. This offers many explanations. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by anor277, Didact

The notion that the Consult are trying to wrest the Psukhe from the Cishaurim (or that they are frightened by it) is a good one. It does not necessarily follow that they have created Psukhe wielding skin spies; if so it is equally likely that they have created Anagogic or Gnostic wielding skin spies - i.e. spies who could take the place of Eleäzaras, Achamian, or the Mandate elders (a potentially disastrous situation for the rest of the Three Seas and not really fair in terms of plot development). Until I see evidence otherwise I continue to believe that the skin spies are non sorcerous creatures. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:p9gism95
The notion that the Consult are trying to wrest the Psukhe from the Cishaurim (or that they are frightened by it) is a good one. It does not necessarily follow that they have created Psukhe wielding skin spies; if so it is equally likely that they have created Anagogic or Gnostic wielding skin spies - i.e. spies who could take the place of Eleäzaras, Achamian, or the Mandate elders (a potentially disastrous situation for the rest of the Three Seas and not really fair in terms of plot development). Until I see evidence otherwise I continue to believe that the skin spies are non sorcerous creatures.[/quote:p9gism95]

You have been misreading my posts. I never said they have skin-spies who use the Psukhe. I didn't even say the skin-spies we see in the books can use sorcery at all.

What I'm saying is that the Consult can use the Tekne to create some sort of creature that is not at all manufactured by sorcery, but can use it like any god-born sorcerer (which is what the Consult Synthese is, but with the flaw that the Inchoroi's soul/consciousness was bound to this shell by using the Gnosis, i.e. by marking it in a way that is not very useful for infiltration since any Gnostic/Anagogic sorcerer would immediately recognize it for what it is). It's basically a creature whose purpose would be to infiltrate the Schools the same way the skin-spies infiltrate the courts and the Holy War. This is entirely possible: i.e. you make a skin-spy analogue, whose genetic makeup allows it to use sorcery, you teach it the Gnosis or the Anagogis, you abduct a real sorcerer and have the skin-sorcerer take its place.

The other part of my argument was that if any member of the Consult, such as the Inchoroi Old Father wanted to inhabit this shell, and infiltrate a sorcerous school, he'd have to find a way of imbuing the Shell with his soul using some sorcery the Schools cannot see. This is where the Psukhe comes in, as a tool for allowing the Consult Elders to be more involved in the spying/manipulation of the Schools, without having to rely on the unreliable skin-spies (who are certainly fallible, and can be used to gain information on the Consult by Kellhus or whoever.)

So to recap, as Scott has said, it's always the genetic makeup that determines if you can use sorcery, not the theoretical knowledge you may have of sorcerous Cants. If the Inchoroi are now sorcerers it means they have made empty shells (using the Tekne) with the genetic makeup necessary for them to apply the sorcerous knowledge they gained from the Nonmen.

If they can give intelligence to a creature such as the skin-spy, they can give it to some other creature that is genetically predisposed to work sorcery, and they can use the usual controls to compel it to do their bidding. Even with such tools they'd be able to infiltrate the Schools. But if they want to act directly, instead of skulking in the shadows, like the Consult Synthese, they have to use the Psukhe to get bound into such a creature, and if they had the Psukhe they could never be recognized by Gnostic/Anagogic sorcerers for what they are.

Then again, regardless of whether this can/will happen in the books, if they tried to infiltrate the Cishaurim using such a creature, to learn the Psukhe, this would explain why they are trying to destroy them now: they were probably discovered by Moenghus, the same way Kellhus was immediately aware Skeaos was not in fact a human being. So if they now cannot count on gaining the Psukhe through subterfuge, they are trying to destroy the Cishaurim so no one knows its secrets, minimize risks, and possibly have a chance of extracting it through torture once the Holy War or the Scarlet Spires get their hands on some Cishaurim.

If you don't think the Consult can use the Tekne to create such creatures, explain to me why are the Inchoroi now capable of working sorcery, when Scott has said they definitely could not as of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, that happened hundreds of years before men first came to Earwa, i.e. many thousands of years after the Inchoroi first arrived on Earwa (if they too have a natural predisposition to sorcery, you'd expect they'd have discovered it in a couple of thousand years); or what is the nature of the No-God (who uses some kind of sorcery as well, and whose creation/resurrection is, according to Achamian, strictly connected to the Tekne knowledge of the Consult). view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by anor277, Didact

@White Lord; Well, if I have not been misreading your posts, (and I do apologize if so), I certainly have not understood them. It's very hard to talk with confidence about sorcery when this is entirely a product of imagination. You argue that the Consult could produce made to measure constructs with the ability to use sorcery and so it could be anyone, any master of a school, any individual sorceror who might be an agent of the Consult. How can we judge the motives of Eleäzaras or Achamian or Moenghus (or soon even Kellhus) when for all we know the Consult turned him off the night before and replaced him a specially constructed creature? In that case all speculation is pointless and I would be disappointed with the internal logic of the novels (and perhaps I will be).

As to why the Consult can't create such creatures who use sorcery but could be exact replicas of whomever or whatever the answer is , "I don't know", and I am not going to find out why or why not by asking the author. The Consult are powerful, but if they are that powerful they are well nigh omnipotent. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:zoabihk2
It's very hard to talk with confidence about sorcery when this is entirely a product of imagination.[/quote:zoabihk2]

That's not exactly so. If sorcery in the books were based entirely on spur-of-the-moment decisions of the author, I'd lose all respect for both the books and the system of sorcery they represent. This is not the case here. There are definite rules, some of which we know from the books, some which Scott has been good enough to contribute on this board. We don't know all the rules, we don't have a complete understanding on their metaphysics, but we know enough to make educated guesses. One of the definite things we know is that sorcery is not connected to the soul or spirit or whatever intangible quality you care to think up. Sorcery is based on genetics, it is encoded in the body. The body is the indispensable hardware, and without it the software (the sorcerous knowledge of the adept) will simply not work. But any intelligence whatsoever will work sorcery if it is properly fitted in the body that is genetically programmed for sorcery.

Now, before the Inchoroi came, there was little the Nonmen or Men could do to somehow custom-build bodies with this necessary genetic makeup (although they could practice selective breeding if they were aware of the hereditary traits, but by no means pump out thousands of sorcerers). They simply didn't have the knowledge and the tools the Inchoroi had available, or that we have available in the real world for that matter.

All I have said is proved by the books and what Scott has said here. He has also said the Inchoroi were not sorcerers when they first came to Earwa. Now they are. The only conclusion you can logically reach is that they practiced genetic manipulation on themselves. This is also a fact. They "birthed mouths" to communicate with the Nonmen. The Consult Synthese thinks back to the time "they could be described as a race. Genera. Species." This is the clearest indication they have radically modified their bodies.

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:zoabihk2
You argue that the Consult could produce made to measure constructs with the ability to use sorcery and so it could be anyone, any master of a school, any individual sorceror who might be an agent of the Consult. How can we judge the motives of Eleäzaras or Achamian or Moenghus (or soon even Kellhus) when for all we know the Consult turned him off the night before and replaced him a specially constructed creature? In that case all speculation is pointless and I would be disappointed with the internal logic of the novels (and perhaps I will be).[/quote:zoabihk2]

Hell, I'm not saying you'll find armies of the creatures throughout the schools. I don't even know how hard or time-consuming a process it is to create these creatures in the first place. I just state that the Consult has the knowledge and the means to do something like this, and that they have positively done so with regard to the Inchoroi. I can meet you halfway and say that for whatever reason the Consult have decided not to escalate the situation or to flood the Three Seas with both skin-spies or fake sorcerers. For one it would maximize the risk of exposure if they did; then there is also the internal mechanics of the Consult to consider, the balance of power of the probable factions inside it. All this could make them wait or hesitate to use this new weapon.

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:zoabihk2
As to why the Consult can't create such creatures who use sorcery but could be exact replicas of whomever or whatever the answer is , "I don't know", and I am not going to find out why or why not by asking the author. The Consult are powerful, but if they are that powerful they are well nigh omnipotent.[/quote:zoabihk2]

As I say, knowledge on something doesn't necessarily make it practicable, for whatever reason, or in great numbers. Your saying "I don't know" is not very impressive, you know, you simply decide not to put what you know in some sort of logical framework and that's just sloppy IMO. I'm not trying to sound confrontational but I ask you to follow my reasoning and try to find something that is not accounted by what we positively know from the books or the board. No need to ask Scott things he can't tell us. All we have to do is use the knowledge we already have. The way the books are written lends itself particularly to extrapolating things from the little we know. I think I've proven it many times, and have had it confirmed by Scott on most.

The wisest thing, IMO, is to wait for some more comments from others, to see what the consensus seems to be . . . view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by diarmuid, Peralogue

i have followed this and other arguments on this board and find your logic flawless White Lord

at least here....

and I don't think I will ever get to the point of arguing the reveleations contained in books or board

but perhaps your interpretations thereof..... <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;diarmuid&quot;:27mgd52p
i have followed this and other arguments on this board and find your logic flawless White Lord

at least here....

and I don't think I will ever get to the point of arguing the reveleations contained in books or board

but perhaps your interpretations thereof..... <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->[/quote:27mgd52p]

I'd like to know where you don't find my logic flawless . . . <!-- s:x --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif" alt=":x" title="Mad" /><!-- s:x --> <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

I think you are right that making a skin spy who can practice sorcery is theoretically possible, but I am not sure the consult knows how to do this with skin spies. While the Inchoiri (I always butcher spellings when far from my book) could practice it on themselves, does this mean that they can do the same with new creations. "the thing that passes for a soul" in the skin spies makes me wonder what these things are. Are they created souls? Does making a skin spy from scratch and transmuting one's soul from different bodies involve the same technology?

I guess the question comes down to intellect. Is that genetic or does it have to do with cultivation? If so, can the Consult make skin spies that are intellectual matches of the sorcers they need to replace. And how, beyond the potential to wield sorcery, and the intellect to be of matching strength, do they acquire the practical knowledge of each school's training, which begins training quite young. It seems that kind of skin spy planting requires major foresight, which might not make it as practicable. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by diarmuid, Peralogue

White Lord...

twas not a challenge more a disclaimer

i haven't even read all the posts yet as i just joined..

just leaving myself a back door fella

truthfully i read YOUR posts cause it helps me pick up on the facts i have missed

but i am an argumentative sort at times and i am not gonna say i will never disagree

nor do i think that is what you are after

peace daddy view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Hell, I was being ironic, if you look at the smilies in the post you can see I'm joking . . . <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

And I'm glad I'm being of some service to you . . . view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 25 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by diarmuid, Peralogue

ya like i said i miss a lot....

what can i say?

years of drinking

and yes you are of imense service to me and to this board

your insight is invaluable view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 26 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by bovine_buddha, Commoner

As of now, having just reread Elezeäras account of his mentor's assassination I have decided that the Cishaurim was in fact responsible, and thus Moënghus since he's probably been in Mallahet's guise for a loooong time. Which imples that Moëngus is in fact the mastermind behind everything from Holy War to strange alliances, and the Consult are merely hitching a ride, trying to annihilate the Cishaurim or possess their Psûkhe (though I guess Scott has a lot of aces up his sleeve to surprise us countless times in TTT).

However, regarding sorcerous skin-spies... I agree with everything you say, White Lord, and have been on that track too, but as others have stated, this makes all variables very unstable... And predictions hard to make since... We do know (suspect) however that a Mandate has turned traitor, or the school has been infiltrated, which would be much more simpler if sorcerous skin-spies could in fact be produced.

On to my scepticism however. As Bakker has stated, the ability to do sorcery stems from the body, being one of the few, coupled with an intelligence to unlock it. These genes are sometimes found in humans. What is incertain however is if these genes could be copied by the Tekne. We do not know if skin-spies in fact HAVE genes in the first place. They do not have faces, but some form of mutable and permeable octopus instead. Maybe they are not a variety of humans, and maybe not even based on humans, but simply constructed to look/feel/smell/whatever like one of them. Their closest relative on account of their bodies might be pigs (or dogs, with reference to Sarcellus 'smellings')! And since we further don't know (at least I don't) if Bakker envisions his world built on the same principles as ours, with genes, DNA and so forth, we do not know if it would be possible to transplant genes in the same way as it is (mostly theoretically) possible in our world, since this is Fantasy after all.

Furthermore, the ability to do sorcery also stems from the intelligence/artistry/wisdom of the wielder. What is to say that the intellect of a human is in any way remotely like that of a skin spy? As they have been portrayed, they resemble humans in their ability to think and speak and so forth (see Skaeös philosophical musing when he speaks to Conphas in tDtCB). Yet we cannot know that their souls have the potential to breach the area between the world and the Outside/if they have any affinity with the onta or however you want to put it. Maybe they are actually not able to think in ways to make Ajencis proud. Perhaps they lack intuition, and can like automatons only do what has been hardwired into them, improvisation being something beyond them, and perhaps likewise for sorcery.

So as a final note, even if everything White Lord has said is true, and while I also believe that the Consult could perhaps create skin spies with sorcerous powers, I am not sure it is possible. Our information from Bakker is not enough to put a final verdict here IMHO. And, I believe it would be simpler to seduce a Mandate schoolman than try to kill him (=hard) and then replace him (probably everyone would see the difference in the characters manners anyway, schoolmen being so aloof/strange/tormented/weird). view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 30 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:38yqmxg5
On to my scepticism however. As Bakker has stated, the ability to do sorcery stems from the body, being one of the few, coupled with an intelligence to unlock it. These genes are sometimes found in humans. What is incertain however is if these genes could be copied by the Tekne. We do not know if skin-spies in fact HAVE genes in the first place.[/quote:38yqmxg5]

Well, since we more or less established that the Inchoroi did something with the Tekne to become sorcerers, we can assume that these genes can in fact be isolated and manipulated using the Tekne. We also don't know how advanced the Tekne is compared to our real-world know-how, but since the Inchoroi were star-farers, I'd say it was very much more advanced, so I don't see any great obstacles for the Inchoroi if they wanted to do something like this, only some time delay to do research, after all, it took them thousands of years to assemble the No-God, but they did it in the end.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:38yqmxg5
They do not have faces, but some form of mutable and permeable octopus instead. Maybe they are not a variety of humans, and maybe not even based on humans, but simply constructed to look/feel/smell/whatever like one of them.[/quote:38yqmxg5]

No one ever said they were humans, or even remotely connected with humans, aside from their outward appearance. They could be almost anything, built from animal and vegetable genes, to a precise set of specifications and for several purposes. As I see it, they're not only spies, but also very efficient warriors.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:38yqmxg5
And since we further don't know (at least I don't) if Bakker envisions his world built on the same principles as ours, with genes, DNA and so forth, we do not know if it would be possible to transplant genes in the same way as it is (mostly theoretically) possible in our world, since this is Fantasy after all.[/quote:38yqmxg5]

Well, if he doesn't conceive his world as built on DNA, I don't know on what else he could. It doesn't matter that we are talking about a fantasy setting, it doesn't in any way discount the existence of DNA, and the presence of the Tekne speaks very much against our assuming DNA is not present in the equation. Our own world of a few thousands of years ago was also, in many ways, a fantasy world, albeit with the absence of magic, but this didn't make DNA absent, evolution nul or whatever. On the whole I don't think we have to look for any out-there explanations on how the Tekne works, the mere mention of "genes" by Bakker on several occasions should be enough to validate DNA manipulation by the Inchoroi.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:38yqmxg5
Furthermore, the ability to do sorcery also stems from the intelligence/artistry/wisdom of the wielder. What is to say that the intellect of a human is in any way remotely like that of a skin spy?[/quote:38yqmxg5]

Nothing. But I don't think we can assume a skin-spy's intellect will be any less developed or versatile. Simply because a skin-spy is conditioned to immediate and utter obedience to any Consult member does not mean that in any field where it is expected to excel it will not do so.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:38yqmxg5
Perhaps they lack intuition, and can like automatons only do what has been hardwired into them, improvisation being something beyond them, and perhaps likewise for sorcery.[/quote:38yqmxg5]

I'd think they are capable of improvisation. If you follow the skin-spies' activities throughout TWP you can see they basically have a good deal of autonomy, with only broad objectives set by the Consult as guidelines. Only when they fail, mainly due to Kellhus, does the Synthese intervene.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:38yqmxg5
So as a final note, even if everything White Lord has said is true, and while I also believe that the Consult could perhaps create skin spies with sorcerous powers, I am not sure it is possible. Our information from Bakker is not enough to put a final verdict here IMHO.[/quote:38yqmxg5]

The only way this could be impracticable is how long it takes to grow a skin-spy, or any other creature of the Consult. If they can create them full-grown in a vat, it'd be much easier to field them in numbers, but perhaps the Consult have internal disagreements, or for whatever reason choose not to. If they have to grow and reproduce naturally from an initial couple then it could be an issue of time, and of course when the things have been developed in the first place. I'm sure there could be many other reasons for them not using them, or not in large numbers; hell from what we know, there's not more than a score of skin-spies in the whole Holy War, which is composed of hundreds of thousands. It makes you think . . .

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:38yqmxg5
And, I believe it would be simpler to seduce a Mandate schoolman than try to kill him (=hard) and then replace him (probably everyone would see the difference in the characters manners anyway, schoolmen being so aloof/strange/tormented/weird).[/quote:38yqmxg5]

Well, I'd think seducing a Mandati would be a lot harder than any sorcerer from another School. As to killing him, well, for the Consult at least, which probably knows more about the Gnosis than the Mandate in the first place, it would be easier, if we are contemplating substitution. As to your comment about sorcerers' manners, we don't know enough of internal School mechanics to know how they act or if they are any different from normal humans in most ways, and judging by Achamian, they are in fact not so very different in many respects. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 30 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

That's very sound reasoning, Cain. The only thing that's problematic would be the capability of the Consult to interfere with the Dreams. This because we know nothing of the workings of Seswatha's Heart. At some point I started believing that Seswatha may still be "alive" (if you can call it that) somewhere in the Outside, and that the Dreams are much more than simple dreams. There is also the fact, as shown by Achamian, that Seswatha has a great deal of actual control over the actions of the Mandati under certain conditions. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 30 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by bovine_buddha, Commoner

Once again I agree with your opinions, White Lord, and your reasoning, but I don't think them absolute <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> I think the best we can do in this case is some kind of guesstimation. However, logically...

The question to be posed is: why are there no schoolmen skin-spies? Obviously, if there had been any Scarlet-Spires-skin-spies, Kellhus would have recognised them (I think he gets a look at some of them throughout the Warrior Prophet if I'm not mistaken), and would have commented on it, since such a revelation would have greatly altered his plans. So at least in the Scarlet Spires there are likely no skin-spies, or otherwise they all pretended to be sick when they departed for the Holy War, which would be strange considering the Consult's involvement and interest with it. So there has to be a reason the Consult hasn't infiltrated this school, of which several come to mind.

1. My already proposed theory. Somehow, the skin-spies are like humans in skin only, and not in their make-up. Perhaps the differences makes it impossible to transplant genes or whatever from humans to skin-spies (Kellhus notes that their physiology is more like that of a shark, lacking bones but possessing cartilage instead). Or perhaps, the Consult has trouble detecting the relevant genes (which would be quite strange considering everything else they have done). In any way, there is some technological obstacle preventing this from happening.

2. The Consult actually fear giving to much power unto their servants. Perhaps granting them sorcery would allow them to rise against their former masters and grasp the power of the Tekne from their Inchoroi masters. I don't fully agree with your reasoning that skin-spies are programmed to blindly follow Consult-orders (I think that the second Sarcellus intent of murdering Kellhus was in fact to cover up his predecessors supposed betrayal, protecting his own hide, though that is just my interpretation)

3. As Bakker himself has noted, TTT will contain more information about the Mark. Perhaps it is that every sorceror possesses an unique mark that is not reproducible. In this way it would be impossible to replace a sorceror since all his peers would immediately see him as a fraud, entirely blowing the Consult's cover. I just though about this theory, and find it quite likely. Gotta go scan the books to find some info about the Mark. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->

As it stands, we know almost for certain that a person can be replaced immediately by a skin-spy (since Geshrunni was supposed to be replaced instantly after stealing his face for example, and the fact that the man shadowing Achamian changed his face instantly). So once a face is acquired, a skin-spy can change his appearance at least on the spot (further evinced by Sarcellus's replacement skin-spy). Furthermore, the speed with which Sarcellus was replaced shows that the Consult has spare skin-spies lying around (or occupying less important positions). If it would be possible to create sorcery-capable skin-spies, the Consult could just have a bunch of them ready to replace sorcerors unfortunate enough to die a faceless death. And Zap!, the Consult secretly controls the schools of the South. Obviously something prevents them from doing this brilliant move, Which of the one above, or if there is another reason, or if Bakker simply didn't think of this possibility, is unknown to me, so it's everyone's guess for now.

On the power of the Tekne, I think one shouldn't overestimate the Inchoroi. If Bakker's world is similar to our own with magic thrown in, then a starfaring race would obviously be extremely superior to our civilization. If they can genetically create new species, then their power surpasses everything we humans could ever dream about with today's technology. Which of course, the Inchoroi can, rendering this whole reasoning moot. But seriously, I think there are some limits to what the Tekne can in fact do in Bakker's world, as there are limits to what our technology can do in our world. And we don't know the Inchoroi came from the stars, or in which way, or in fact not much at all, or how their "technology" works. So much about the Tekne is pure speculation. Sure, we know they can genetically alter and produce things, but there have to be limits. Bleh. Now I'm just rambling. I think there was supposed to be a point in there somewhere... By the by, sure, the Inchoroi created the No-God using the Tekne, scary creation and all, but in the description of the No-God his Carapace is a nimil Sarcophagus (who is buried within I wonder?) with choric (chorae, Aporos-connected?) inscription, which implies that the renegade Non-Men probably had something to do with that concoction as well.

About Seswatha's Heart, is it ever explained what it really is? Is it his literal heart buried somewhere, or the source of his power conserved by some strange ritual? I remember Seswatha's crucifixion at the hands of Merekeretrig (Cunoroi perhaps?) was briefly described in PoN. I have no idea if this was part of his intonement ceremony or any such or if he was just caught and killed by the enemy, the latter which would have a hard time to explain how the his "Heart" was preserved and the Mandate was formed.

Well, anyway, now I'm off to Spain for a week, so I won't be seeing any reply for a while... But keep em coming!

Vamos ala Playa! (And no, I don't know Spanish so don't complain about my spelling/grammar <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> ) view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 30 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Just a few quick comments . . . It's close to my bed time (;)) so my brain is unreliable and I'd say one huge post a day is enough. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
Once again I agree with your opinions, White Lord, and your reasoning, but I don't think them absolute <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> I think the best we can do in this case is some kind of guesstimation.[/quote:1kavwrzv]

I agree. I'm not prepared to wager a limb on this theory, but I still hold it is theoretically possible, even if it's not exploited in the books.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
I don't fully agree with your reasoning that skin-spies are programmed to blindly follow Consult-orders (I think that the second Sarcellus intent of murdering Kellhus was in fact to cover up his predecessors supposed betrayal, protecting his own hide, though that is just my interpretation)[/quote:1kavwrzv]

My reasoning states they have to obey certain imperatives which are imprinted in their bodies at the genetic level (to quote Sarcellus "obedience to the Maker, the Architect, is absolute", just observe his behaviour in the Synthese's presence) but in most cases, where a free hand is the best solution, they have a wide degree of authonomy, which is what we also see in the skin-spies' behavior when the Synthese is absent.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
3. As Bakker himself has noted, TTT will contain more information about the Mark. Perhaps it is that every sorceror possesses an unique mark that is not reproducible. In this way it would be impossible to replace a sorceror since all his peers would immediately see him as a fraud, entirely blowing the Consult's cover. I just though about this theory, and find it quite likely. Gotta go scan the books to find some info about the Mark. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->[/quote:1kavwrzv]

This is possible, I agree, but will have to wait some time for TTT to prove . . .

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
If it would be possible to create sorcery-capable skin-spies, the Consult could just have a bunch of them ready to replace sorcerors unfortunate enough to die a faceless death. And Zap!, the Consult secretly controls the schools of the South. Obviously something prevents them from doing this brilliant move, Which of the one above, or if there is another reason, or if Bakker simply didn't think of this possibility, is unknown to me, so it's everyone's guess for now.[/quote:1kavwrzv]

It may be that it's simply overkill. You don't see thousands of skin-spies in the Holy War. Obviously their present (small) numbers are sufficient for the Consult's purpose. Remember that the whole Holy War can be viewed as a (rather small-scale) precursor of the Apocalypse. As the Synthese says by end of TWP the big picture is the Apocalypse, not the Holy War, and that's some 20 years down the road. Who knows when they might decide to put some plans in action . . .

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
But seriously, I think there are some limits to what the Tekne can in fact do in Bakker's world, as there are limits to what our technology can do in our world. And we don't know the Inchoroi came from the stars, or in which way, or in fact not much at all, or how their "technology" works.[/quote:1kavwrzv]

They did come from the stars, in a starship. This is stated clearly by the end of TWP. In fact Golgotterath is the crash site of this starship, and I assume the Inchoroi were so eager to regain it through the School of Mangaecca because all the advanced instruments for Tekne work are concentrated in the remains of the ship.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
By the by, sure, the Inchoroi created the No-God using the Tekne, scary creation and all, but in the description of the No-God his Carapace is a nimil Sarcophagus (who is buried within I wonder?) with choric (chorae, Aporos-connected?) inscription, which implies that the renegade Non-Men probably had something to do with that concoction as well.[/quote:1kavwrzv]

Yes, I already mentioned this in another thread. To my mind the No-God is the result of the melding of Tekne and Aporos/Quya sorcery.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
About Seswatha's Heart, is it ever explained what it really is? Is it his literal heart buried somewhere, or the source of his power conserved by some strange ritual?[/quote:1kavwrzv]

We know only what it's called, nothing more. This will change in TTT.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
I remember Seswatha's crucifixion at the hands of Merekeretrig (Cunoroi perhaps?) was briefly described in PoN.[/quote:1kavwrzv]

Mekeritrig is the Mantraitor mentioned by Achamian. Incidentally, he's also the Nonman Kellhus fights in the Prologue of TDtCB. Obviously Seswatha survived this crucifixion, since he founded the Mandate after the Apocalypse's end.

Quote: &quot;bovine_buddha&quot;:1kavwrzv
Well, anyway, now I'm off to Spain for a week, so I won't be seeing any reply for a while... But keep em coming![/quote:1kavwrzv]

Have fun! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Though I have to say I don't like Spain that much. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> I prefer Greece or Southern Italy, but even more my own country's (Croatia) sea-coast (you could say I'm prejudiced <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->). view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 31 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Cain the Wicked&quot;:2r2xapu2
Now, when a Madati touches the focus, a conduit is created from the Outside to the soul/being of the sorcerer, linking him to Seswatha. Think of many rivers feeding into a giant estuary.[/quote:2r2xapu2]

It'd be better to say Seswatha is a giant river that has as many branches as there are sorcerers connected to him. By the way, I should mention that I have it from Scott that you don't have to be a sorcerer to be affected by the Heart, so the potential number of "acolytes" could be very large.

Anyway, I don't think it was anything Seswatha did to "survive" in the Outside, it's rather a privilege that was granted him by the so-called (by the Nonmen) "agencies" that inhabit the Outside, i.e. the gods of men; probably to continue his fight against the Consult, and give some material help to his successors.

This brings up questions such as reincarnation, predestination etc., which we should be finding out about in TTT to some extent. Anyway I suggest reading the following threads in the Q&amp;A section: "A Conception of Virtue" and "On Inrithism" for some idea of what life after death is like in Earwa (as interpreted by religious and philosophical thinkers).

Here's also an interesting quote from TDtCB that can be applied to Seswatha (or Celmomas and Kellhus for that matter): These men were more than human, they were Kahiht, World Souls, locked in the great wheel of great events.

I'd very much like to know if it's possible that Kellhus is the reincarnation of Celmomas or any great ancestor for that matter; or whether, if you still "live" in the Outside, by the mercy of some agency, you can be summoned back into the world by sorcery, along the lines of what Iyokus did with the demon in TWP. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 31 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Twayleph, Auditor

I'd like to know where you got that quote, White Lord. I've re-read TdTCB so many times I've lost count but I don't recall ever seeing this. Is there a special edition containing more information than the Canadian edition, or did I just over-look it? view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 31 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

I lent my books to a friend a while ago so I quoted from memory. If I remember correctly, you should find it at the very end of TDtCB, the part where Esmenet observes Zin, Kellhus and the others, while waiting for Achamian.

Let me know if you find it . . . after all, I could just be misremembering.

Otherwise, it's an interesting point to speculate about, this possibility of certain souls born and reborn to affect the world (shades of WoT) . . . view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 31 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Twayleph, Auditor

Ah, I finally found it in some little corner of page 554!

She stood, she realized, at the very heart of the Holy War, fiery with passion, promise, and sacred purpose. These men were more than human, they were Kahiht, World Souls, locked in the great wheel of great events.


I can't believe you could quote that out of memory...Amazing how many subtle little facts like this you can overlook if you're not as incredibly immersed in the world as you, White Lord <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I'll certainly be interested in looking for the definition and origin of that little term in the TTT appendice. view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 31 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by H, Auditor

I think it might mean that they are more than just 'normal people', they are those whose actions will have world shaking importance and will shape those events to come. I don't know that there is a meaning of predestination, or of rebirth though, just seems more a term of being the center, and the guiding force, of events.

Interesting though, that Scott would use a term so similar in meaning to ta'veren in a sentance with "great wheel of great events." Scott has said he read WoT, maybe a little priming there? <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 01 June 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;H&quot;:2182lhwo
I don't know that there is a meaning of predestination, or of rebirth though, just seems more a term of being the center, and the guiding force, of events.[/quote:2182lhwo]

Well, there is a great degree of predestination in the line of Anasurimbor. Things are very similar now to the situation at the time of the First Apocalypse, and I think we'll find those people could have some role to play in the story, whether they are reincarnated or adopt a more Seswatha-like approach.

Quote: &quot;H&quot;:2182lhwo
Interesting though, that Scott would use a term so similar in meaning to ta'veren in a sentance with "great wheel of great events." Scott has said he read WoT, maybe a little priming there? <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->[/quote:2182lhwo]

<!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

Quote: &quot;Cain The Wicked&quot;:2182lhwo
I don't think that they'd be reincarnations, persay. Reaggregation may be the better word. Reincarnation implies an eventual awakening of the former soul, and a recognition of who and what you were before.[/quote:2182lhwo]

It depends whether the soul and the consciousness (specific set of memories) are inextricably tied together. It could be possible to reincarnate a soul without the memories. I'm not too clear on how this whole thing works, too little info on the subject. Still, Scott said that there are three paths for the soul: Oblivion = Death (but death of what? Unlikely it's the soul, more likely the personality/memories); Redemption = Life in the Outside (the soul retains the personality/memories; you live as an incorporeal entity, you don't lose the sentience you had in the physical world); and Damnation = more or less the same thing as redemption, but instead of a reward you get endless suffering.

If you reincarnate a soul without the memories, but with the inherent "gifts" of that soul, you get more or less what I was driving at, especially if you're then acting under divine protection and guidance.

That the consciousness is somehow connected to the soul is proved by a passage in TDtCB: In the scene where Inrau dies at the Synthese's hands we have the following (more or less, going from memory here): "He could see the scars (or burns?) where sorcery was used to bind the soul to the shell . . ."

Obviously the Synthese has his Inchoroi memories and abilities because the soul was bound to the bird-man shell. So what I ask is whether a sorcerer powerful enough could pluck out from the Outside one of these redeemed souls and bind them into some shell. It is theoretically possible, unless some god interferes, but as Kellhus would say, "any mystery can be killed, if you have the power . . ." <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Some interesting speculations (though, for some reason, I don't think we'll see much of this in the books <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->). view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 01 June 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

As far as I remember, the Anasurimbor prophecy only says that an Anasurimbor will return again, but not what the Anasurimbor will do. That doesn't mean that an Anasurimbor will necessarily be the good guys, or the only one that can stop the Consult. Besides, Celomas (name butchering here, I don't have my books and my memory is not as good as WL's) didn't do so hot against the Consult. How is the world the same as the Apocalypse? I get the feeling that the present of the Holy War is something of a fallen state from past pre-Apocalypse grandeur.

In most forms of Buddhism, reincarnation does not depend on consciousness of past lives. Everyone is reincarnated, but only the souls well advanced to enlightenment get their memories can access their past lives.

The Seswatha thing is fascinating though. It's almost like a piece of his spirit controls certain things in all Mandate schoolmen. Apparently, you can screw over your order by withholding information and breaking the rules (running off with a woman). It even seems like he can teach Kelhus the Gnosis if he wants to. But he can't have the Gnosis forcibly extracted from him.

But I wonder if this is an imprint of the dreams - all the torture Seswatha has undergone rendering any torture a Mandati undergoes less effective - or if there is an active princicple of Seswatha that actually intervenes at those moments. I think that the thing passing for Skeaos' reaction is indicative here, the thing actually seemed to see Seswatha in Akka. Why? And, if they are not sorcerous creatures, how? view post


The agenda of the skin spies and the Consult posted 01 June 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Tattooed Hand&quot;:2odhqxfq
As far as I remember, the Anasurimbor prophecy only says that an Anasurimbor will return again, but not what the Anasurimbor will do. That doesn't mean that an Anasurimbor will necessarily be the good guys, or the only one that can stop the Consult.[/quote:2odhqxfq]

Yes but do you really believe he will turn to the Consult, or that he will not in fact be a "savior"? Then, if he is a real prophet (whatever that implies) I can see him only improving, as far as his love of humanity goes.


Quote: &quot;Tattooed Hand&quot;:2odhqxfq
Besides, Celomas (name butchering here, I don't have my books and my memory is not as good as WL's) didn't do so hot against the Consult.[/quote:2odhqxfq]

Well, when I say the present is in many ways similar to the First Apocalypse I mean that in the First Apocalypse you had Celmomas and his son (both remarkable people) and it's clear that what was expected of them then is expected of Kellhus (and his father; or of Kellhus and his son?) today, just that something went wrong. If you will, you can consider Kellhus's role in the present as a sort of "second chance". (I don't doubt Celmomas and his son, after their death have been rewarded with life in the Outside, at least for trying, if not succeeding. Remember, before he dies, Celmomas "speaks" with his son, even if he is dead . . .).

In short, just as today it is entirely possible for Kellhus to win against the Consult it was possible for Celmomas, perhaps even more, since now the Consult has had 2000 more years of planning and preparation. Ultimately I think the clue to Celmomas's failure can be found in his own prophetic words. When he asks Seswatha's forgiveness, saying "I've been such a bitter old fool, and to you, old friend, have I been most unjust . . .", this implies that Celmomas didn't appreciate the importance of sorcery from the very beginning. I think both he and his son were of the Few, but that Celmomas didn't want to learn sorcery, or use it, while his son did. Seswatha probably taught Celmomas's son the Gnosis, and the son did something rash and died, hence the earlier estrangement of Celmomas and Seswatha.

There are very few details on the Ancient North in the books, but I guess we can say with some certainty that it was, at the time of the Apocalypse, a very divided place. I think the Schools of the North refused to help at first, so many important battles were lost needlessly. Remember Achamian's dream of the Fords of Tywanrae, where the Akksersian army loses huge numbers to Consult sorcerers because they had not one sorcerer of their own . . .

Quote: &quot;Tattooed Hand&quot;:2odhqxfq
But I wonder if this is an imprint of the dreams - all the torture Seswatha has undergone rendering any torture a Mandati undergoes less effective - or if there is an active princicple of Seswatha that actually intervenes at those moments. I think that the thing passing for Skeaos' reaction is indicative here, the thing actually seemed to see Seswatha in Akka. Why? And, if they are not sorcerous creatures, how?[/quote:2odhqxfq]

It could mean that a part of Seswatha is reincarnated in every Mandate Schoolman. There's mention in the books of Seswatha's "trace" within every Mandati . . . If I'm not mistaken somewhere Achamian says that Seswatha "reincarnated his memories in his disciples", so it could mean his memories never left the material world, and that the Heart is the link to his disembodied soul. So long as the link works, his memories are accessible to other Mandati, but so are his ideas, so is his will, (if he wants to give them, and which he can exert on others when he wants or needs to). In short, Seswatha truly is alive, but part of his being is in the one place that insures immortality, while the other is in Earwa. As to Skeaos, who knows . . . Many things are possible, it could be a gift of the Tekne, that he is attuned to recognize sorcerers in general, Seswatha in particular (or his disciples). After all, we know Seswatha had been captured by the Consult for some time, who knows what they did to him or had from him during this captivity. view post


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