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Should Kellhus learn the Gnosis? posted 01 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by anor277, Didact

Just a question connected to chorae. Kellhus is a man of prodigal intellect and prodigal reflexes – no one we’ve seen in the Three Seas can compete with him intellectually or physically. It might be that his learning the Gnosis would complete the package (i.e. he would become the ultimate warrior/prophet/sorceror/sage) . Nevertheless by uttering a cant he would,
(i) earn the enmity of the laity (i.e. shades of “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” etc. Censure of and sanction against sorcerors and witches seem to be fairly potent in the the Three Seas,
(ii) more importantly, he would render himself vulnerable to chorae. Of course Kellhus’ reflexes allow him to pick crossbow bolts out of midair. If he becomes a sorceror he will have to check that the arrows/quarrels etc directed at him in battle do not have a chorae attached.

Other temporal powers in the Three Seas (i.e. the Nansur Emperor, Maithanet – I know he is not temporal!) can hold office without exercising sorcerous powers themselves, indeed the Nansur emperor directs a School. So should Kellhus learn sorcery? view post


Should Kellhus learn the Gnosis? posted 02 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: "anor277":2magpvgs
Just a question connected to chorae. Kellhus is a man of prodigal intellect and prodigal reflexes – no one we’ve seen in the Three Seas can compete with him intellectually or physically. It might be that his learning the Gnosis would complete the package (i.e. he would become the ultimate warrior/prophet/sorceror/sage) . Nevertheless by uttering a cant he would,
(i) earn the enmity of the laity (i.e. shades of “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” etc. Censure of and sanction against sorcerors and witches seem to be fairly potent in the the Three Seas,
(ii) more importantly, he would render himself vulnerable to chorae. Of course Kellhus’ reflexes allow him to pick crossbow bolts out of midair. If he becomes a sorceror he will have to check that the arrows/quarrels etc directed at him in battle do not have a chorae attached.

Other temporal powers in the Three Seas (i.e. the Nansur Emperor, Maithanet – I know he is not temporal!) can hold office without exercising sorcerous powers themselves, indeed the Nansur emperor directs a School. So should Kellhus learn sorcery?[/quote:2magpvgs]

I think that by the end of TTT there will be a drastic reevaluation of sorcery. Everyone thinks sorcerers are sinners, but they do so because they believe that men should not "ape" the gods since they are not godlike. This is what the "gods" of the Tusk say, this is what human narrowmindedness and bigotry believe.

However, and if you do a search on the net -- [url=http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/gnosis.html:2magpvgs]check this for an overview on gnosticism[/url:2magpvgs] -- about gnostic esoterics (I advise reading the linked page since it's important for my reasoning below) you'll see that most gnostics believe that the god that created the material world (the demiurge), and his servants (the archons) are not the true authors of all creation, but an unknowable Eternal Creator who is the source of all light. So whatever the gods of the Tusk or the God of the Inrithi say may not necessarily be true or "good" if we can follow gnostic esoterics far enough through the storyline.

Basically the Supreme Being (who is the only one "uncreated" because he came before everything and created everything by exploding himself -- think a spiritual big bang event) caused his light to spread in all directions and as this light in the form of light-creatures (called the aeons) got farther from him it became dimmer, more polluted and unaware of the Creator. The human soul is nothing if not an aeon (a part of the Supreme Being himself trapped in a prison of flesh by the ignorance and conceitedness of the Demiurge who thinks himself the true god and makes it very difficult for man to return to the Father i.e. the Supreme Being) so is a sorcerer who uses the Gnosis really a sinner or is he the man who has the advantage of understanding more easily than most others his own divine nature and the ability to start the return to the Father?

It is also interesting that the gnostics admit the existence of three categories of men: the pneumatics -- those who have the most spiritual empathy, those who can achieve the Gnosis with the least effort (you can think of them as the Few from Scott's books); the psychics -- those who have less emphatic ability than the pneumatics but who can achieve the Gnosis through the rules of some religion that contains Truth (could this be what the Cishaurim are? Remember they reject the Aspects of God as demons.); and lastly the hyletics: materialists who are entirely under the spell of the Demiurge and who are so far misled that they will not even try to believe that they may be a part of a great divine being -- basically most of the religious bigots in the world of Earwa.

So if you examine the situation regarding sorcery in the Three Seas you can see the Few as being the pneumatics of gnostic esoterism, the ones who can find the truth more easily than others; they themselves however only use the God's creative power without understanding their true role in the metaphysical scheme of things, and here I see the great role of Kellhus. Since I think he is the Logos of the True God, the wisdom of the God, I believe he is here to give the sorcerers a true spiritual direction, making them the true priests of the God, warriors against the Demiurge (could the No-God be the demiurge, or one of his archons maybe?) and his tyranny over men.

Now I admit that there may not be a total correspondence between gnostic and kindred esoterics and what Scott is trying to show us, still it's interesting to note the similarities, and speculate on where the story is going from this point of view.

Looking forward to some discussion on this. view post


Should Kellhus learn the Gnosis? posted 03 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by anor277, Didact

@White Lord and sciborg2....


You've provided more 'filosofy' than I can handle. I am prosaic and materialistic. And I thought the original meaning of 'gnostic' was 'know thyself'.

Anyway, White Lord's suggestion that by the end of the next novel the people of the Three Seas might have undergone a drastic revision in their view of sorcery is for mine a good one and perfectly reasonable. And of course it has been foreshadowed in what we've actually read thus far. Achamian and Esmenet have already speculated whether it was blasphemy for a prophet, whom they perceive Kellhus to be, to sing the god's song, whereas it was apparently 'blasphemy' for a sorceror to do the same, hence the discordance, the 'wrenching of the intellect', when a sorceror utters a spell. Perhaps we'll see when Kellhus 1st utters the cant 'that halibut was fit for Jehovah'. view post


Should Kellhus learn the Gnosis? posted 04 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: "sciborg2":1sjihkvr
sorry, i had a mind-spasm. suddenly it felt like so many things connected to the books, a dozen-fold thought, if you will. i was just thinking that khellus could get around the vulnerability to chorae by resolving the contradiction inscribed on each one.[/quote:1sjihkvr]

I don't really know about that . . . Anyway, from what Scott said, it seems that Chorae kill sorcerers because there is a link between sorcerer and sorcery, ergo, if Chorae can kill the sorcerous Cant they can kill the sorcerer too (this is a fortunate byproduct of the Aporos, which cannot be used offensively but only to deconstruct Cants). By this logic, if a sorcerer uses exclusively a form of sorcery that the Aporos cannot unravel he cannot be harmed by Chorae. Now it remains to be seen if any such sorcery exists or will exist. What's sure, however, is that the Consult are very anxious to get rid of the Cishaurim . . . view post


Should Kellhus learn the Gnosis? posted 19 August 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by Mithfânion, Didact

I see it as follows:

The great danger of Kellhus learning the Gnosis and the primary reason for why he shouldn't do it, is indeed because it makes him far more vulnerable than he is right now. Given his gifts and abilities, you'd expect someone to be secure as he is. However.......


Learning the Gnosis will become a necessity if Kellhus is in fact the one who will be largely responsible for taking on the Consult, Inchoroi and Mog Pharau included. There comes a point when simply being Dunyian will not suffice. As Achamian says, if Kellhus were to learn the Gnosis, with his intellect he would be "more than Seswatha" arguably the greatest of the Mandati. If the No God etc were not on the scene, then Kellhus might be better off leaving sorcery for what it is...

I'm sure the people of the Three Seas would come to see the value of the sorcerors when The Second Apocalypse manifests itself.

Yet even then, Kellhus would still be vulnerable to chorae, very vulnerable. I don't think this is something that is even remotely acceptable to Kellhus, so I think we can expect him to work around that, in ways yet to be revealed. view post


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