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livin n dyin in TTT posted 16 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Andrew, Peralogue

Random predictions:

DEAD after end of TTT:
1) Kellus - at hands of Cnaiur OR Moenghus
2) Xinemus - at hands of Fanim OR disease
3) Emporer of Nansur - at hands of Imperial Saik
4) Cnaiur - at hands of Consult OR Moenghus
5) Esmenet - at hands of skin spy
6) Maithanet - at hands of scarlet spires OR consult
7) Eleazaras - at hands of Akkamian
<!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> The Scarlet Spires (as a school) - broken by the Cishaurim or by betrayal

ALIVE after TTT:
1) Akka
2) Conphas
3) Proyas
4) Moenghus
5) Children of Kellus
6) Iyokus

Other Random Predictions
- Iyokus will commit a horrible betrayal and then join forces with the consult
- Akka will retreat with Kellus' children to Ishual where he will break faith with the mandate and reveal the Gnosis to the Dunyain
- School of Mandate will become most powerful and will receive endorsement of Maithanet or his successor (ie. will be absolved of status as evil sorcerors)
- Kellus will reveal all about the Dunyain to Akka in exchange for the Gnosis view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 22 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Grantaire, Moderator

Note: Iyokus is dead already, Akka killed him when he escaped from the hold of the Scarlet Spires. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 23 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Twayleph, Auditor

Are we sure about that, Grantaire? I'd always wondered what happened to Iyokus after Achamian destroyed the Ciphrang. I thought the fate of Iyokus had been left to be told in TTT; if you've found a passage which tells us with certainty that Iyokus is indeed dead, could you please quote it? view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 23 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Andrew, Peralogue

I'm sure he's not dead. He slipped away once achamian started battling the demon. I remember thinking he would have some significant part to play in the future. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 24 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

I too do not think Iyokus is dead; certainly Achamian did not witness his death, at the time Akka was distracted by the demon Iyokus raised. I seem to remember Eleäzaras later mentioning the disaster at wherever it was and maybe Iyokus was the source of that information. Possibly Iyokus is still running from that demon.

I'm still waiting for some Mandate sorcerors to turn up at Caraskarand. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 27 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by White Lord, Subdidact

Iyokus is definitely still alive. To me he's a very ambiguous character (lots of clues on him being a powerful ally for either side), still I've got a gut feeling he may go over to Kellhus's side.

Actually, by the end of TTT I expect many characters will shed their current views on sorcery and religion (and even national allegiance). So I see Eleazaras himself along with the surviving SS (;)) and Cishaurim supporting Kellhus (it's the Mandate itself I'm dubious of). The name of the following trilogy (Aspect-Emperor) is very significant. Some think it refers to Conphas but I think we can safely assume it's Kellhus who is here referred to. Also at first I thought he'd rule an empire slowly expanding from Momemn and the Nansur lands, but right now I find it much more plausible that by the end of TTT Kellhus will be made emperor of the conquered Fanim lands (as a starting point) supported by the surviving Holy War and Great Names, with Fanim additions. Also very likely that the Consult, through the skin-spy rulers of the Inrithi will move against them. And here you have the basis of this Second Holy War Scott has been hinting at: the reconquest of the western lands by Kellhus and the Great Names.

On his timely success also depends whether the Second Apocalypse will be fought in the North or in the heart of the Three Seas. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 28 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Andrew, Peralogue

Iyokus is so convinced he is damned, that he sold his soul to a demon to save his hide, and considered it a good bargain. He will do anything to live and that is why i think he will join the consult. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 30 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Morgoth Bauglir, Candidate

I think that we may have seen the end of the skin-spy epidemic. Kellhus is able to see them, AND kill them without much trouble, not to mention EVERYONE reveres him as the Warrior-Prophet, plus he has achieved the Thousandfold Thought, which I'm going to assume makes him basically invincible. No, the Consult has worse tricks up their sleeve, and I hope we get to see them in action. I have a strange feeling that the Zaudunyani will become a sort of Prophet's School- one impervious to chorae (seeing as Kellhus, one of the Few, cannot be harmed by the chorae as we've seen time and again; i.e. the ring bound by chorae, and another instance where he handled one). I think Achamian will surrender the Gnosis towards the end of TTT, as he watches the Mandate be utterly destroyed by new Consult weaponry.

Predictions:

-Maithanet, possibly a tool of the Consult, combined with Xerius' Nansur, will lead an army of Orthodox Inrithi against the new Anasurimborites, thus beginning a second Holy War (in PON, we constantly see references to Achamian's Compendium of the FIRST Holy War)

-The Dunyain will be found by the Consult; their ignorance of sorcery and their helplessness against a Nonmen-Consult alliance will cause their ultimate destruction; they will find that the Shortest Path is the one to the grave

-After the last defeat of Orthodoxy, Moenghus, united with Kellhus and the schools who support them, will create a new Aspect-Empire with Shimeh as the capital; the Consult, enraged by their hideous failure to control the activities of the Three Seas, flood the war zone with armies of Bagrash, Wracu and Sranc

-We will see the evolution of a school that exceeds the power of the Mandate or even the schools of the Old Wars- immunity to chorae, possession of the Daimos, Anagos, Gnosis, Teneke and Logos- which side they will be fighting on, if any, is up for speculation view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 30 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

Posted by Morgoth B

I have a strange feeling that the Zaudunyani will become a sort of Prophet's School- one impervious to chorae (seeing as Kellhus, one of the Few, cannot be harmed by the chorae as we've seen time and again; i.e. the ring bound by chorae, and another instance where he handled one). I think Achamian will surrender the Gnosis towards the end of TTT, as he watches the Mandate be utterly destroyed by new Consult weaponry.


Just regarding Kellhus sorcerous ability, he is indeed immune to chorae, but as far as we know his immunity derives from the fact that he is not yet a sorceror. There are apparently other sorcerously gifted individuals (the Thousand Temples' witchfinders, the college of Luthyae, Luthymae? are an example) who are also immune to chorae because they too have never practised sorcery - uttering a cant apparently stains both the Unta (whatever that is) and the individual who spoke the cant. (Of course Cishaurim sorcerors do not share the stain, but they are manifestly vulnerable to chorae - Mallahet's interview with the Nansur emperor for instance)

When Achamian tests Kellhus with the witch doll, he says to him words to the effect. "you won't be uttering a cant, you'll still be able to handle chorae without discomfort". In sum, all sorcery practitioners (not adepts, i.e. those who have never used their ability) are vulnerable to chorae (this includes Gnostic - Consult and Mandate - and Anagogic - Scarlet Spires, etc.- and Cishaurim sorcery) and a chorae holder is apparently reasonably invulnerable to direct sorcerous attack.

I agree with you that Kellhus' Zaudunyani may become the basis of a little Dunyain prophet school, and that Kellhus will learn the Gnosis from Achamian. What Kellhus makes of the sorcery, as Achamian alluded to in the "Warrior Prohpet" is another matter, and this is one of the very things I'm looking forward to in the next novel. The question I'd like to have really answered is, where do the Mandate fit into this? They probably have other agents than Achamian in the Holy War, and if you look on the map, their stronghold, Atyersus (? is that right) is not far by sea from Shimeh or where the Holy War is currently camped. When are they going to make an appearance? Who are they going to discipline? view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 30 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Atanvarno, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:2djwu6pt
Posted by Morgoth B
In sum, all sorcery practitioners (not adepts, i.e. those who have never used their ability) are vulnerable to chorae (this includes Gnostic - Consult and Mandate - and Anagogic - Scarlet Spires, etc.- and Cishaurim sorcery) and a chorae holder is apparently reasonably invulnerable to direct sorcerous attack.[/quote:2djwu6pt]That's in an intresting question, do chorae affect the Consult?

I'm not so sure, unless I've missed something (very possible), the Tekne (can't find it in the book at the moment, but I'm sure that's the name), the 'magic' of the Consult, seems to me to be an advanced science, something mundane even if it is beyond the comprehension of those in the Three Seas. The chorae work because something about the metaphysics of magic, quite what remains unclear, allows them to do so, but if the Tekne isn't infact magic on a metaphysical level, but rather just a physical science - advanced biology - would the chorae affect it? I don't think so. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 30 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

@Atan..

I agree with your assesment. The point I was trying to make was that Consult sorcery is almost certainly Gnostic. Why? Because in Achamian's epic account of the rise and fall of the No-God, he mentioned that Golgotterath was "reactivated" by the ancient Gnostic school of Mangaecca (spelling is right I think for once - but no umlauts). Now the Consult, which probably includes Non-men, men, and Inchoroi (at least one or two), probably practises both sorcery and some science/craft/biotechnology, the Tekne? The old father, the bird man, an Inchoroi, was certainly a sorceror. On skin spies (Tekne products?), chorae were ineffective, they are demonstrably not magical creatures and indeed Sarcellus himself wielded a chorae to fend off the sorcerous attack of Inrau (a Gnostic sorceror). I think we may reasonably assume that chorae would be effective against Consult sorcery, especially as Achamian once laments the fact that against the now active Consult, humanity possessed only a handful of trinkets. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 30 April 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Atanvarno, Peralogue

Aye, I'd never really considered that the Consult might have access to sorcery (be it Gnostic or ortherwise), and assumed they had the Tekne alone. In this I may be wrong, and probably am considering the resources of the Consult.

However, this does make me wonder, unlike men the Consult may actually understand how the chorae work, thier metaphysics, etc. which then begs the question, have the worked out a way to block them? All pure speculation of course, but a possibility none the less.

Also, on an off topic point. If men possess so few trinkets, then why have chorae bowmen? This always bugged me: a chorae is such a precious item, that cannot be replaced, and jealously guraded by the nobility. Indeed, the gift of several chorae to the Scarlet Spires was enough to make them sit up and take serious notice. Yet these things are fashioned into arrows, and fired away (yes, to great affect), yet retrieving an arrow is a difficult task, it always seemed such a waste, unsustainable in fact.

Say if there were as many as ten thousand chorae in the hands of men (which I highly doubt, if it's ten times fewer I'd still be surprised), take two thousand years of wars after the Apocalypse in which chorae bowmen are used... the damn things would run out at some point. Perhaps I should ask Scott. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 01 May 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Atanvarno&quot;:6p2dld2u
Aye, I'd never really considered that the Consult might have access to sorcery (be it Gnostic or ortherwise), and assumed they had the Tekne alone. In this I may be wrong, and probably am considering the resources of the Consult.[/quote:6p2dld2u]

The Consult as such is a cabal of generals and sorcerers, as you can see from the faction guide in the book. In fact Golgotterath was "reactivated" by a Gnostic School of the Ancient North (the Mangaecca), so there's no doubt they know and use Gnostic sorcery. (The Tekne seems to be some sort of bioscience that only the Inchoroi know and use -- don't think they have shared this with their human and nonmen allies, too important to give up so easily. Also, since the Inchoroi were/are a star-faring, technical society you can assume they have at least the theoretical knowledge of what we consider advanced science, even though they probably don't have the resources/tools to turn it into weapons).

Quote: &quot;Atanvarno&quot;:6p2dld2u
However, this does make me wonder, unlike men the Consult may actually understand how the chorae work, thier metaphysics, etc. which then begs the question, have the worked out a way to block them? All pure speculation of course, but a possibility none the less.[/quote:6p2dld2u]

They ought to know all on Chorae since they were the ones who created them in the first place (or the Inchoroi, really . . .). If you check one of the old threads in the Q&amp;A section you'll find an answer by Scott on Chorae. Basically what he said is: Chorae were invented by renegade Nonmen sorcerers, who defected to the Inchoroi, at the time of the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. Seems the Inchoroi were losing the war because, though they had advanced technological weapons, they had no sorcery. The renegade Nonmen sorcerers developed the Aporos (a branch of the Gnosis). The Aporos (sorcery of contradictions) can unravel and render meaningless any Cant or sorcery. So to return to the Chorae: they are metallic spheres, with Choric or Aporetic runes engraved on them. So it seems that without the runes with their unraveling spell they would be just that, metallic balls. From this it's obvious that the Aporos is capable not only of nullifying Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery, but also of instantly killing a sorcerer. I asked Scott if Aporetic sorcery can be used for offensive spells (such as blocking a Chorae, which is basically a frozen Aporetic Cant anyone can wield) and he didn't answer since it would be a spoiler. So basically, if we learn from the book that Aporetic sorcerers can stop one another's spells, then, yes, Chorae can be stopped. Guess we'll have to wait till TTT or later for an answer.


Quote: &quot;Atanvarno&quot;:6p2dld2u
Also, on an off topic point. If men possess so few trinkets, then why have chorae bowmen? This always bugged me: a chorae is such a precious item, that cannot be replaced, and jealously guraded by the nobility. Indeed, the gift of several chorae to the Scarlet Spires was enough to make them sit up and take serious notice. Yet these things are fashioned into arrows, and fired away (yes, to great affect), yet retrieving an arrow is a difficult task, it always seemed such a waste, unsustainable in fact.

Say if there were as many as ten thousand chorae in the hands of men (which I highly doubt, if it's ten times fewer I'd still be surprised), take two thousand years of wars after the Apocalypse in which chorae bowmen are used... the damn things would run out at some point. Perhaps I should ask Scott.[/quote:6p2dld2u]

Your number is actually dead-on. If you check Book 1 (where Achamian speaks with the Quorum in Atyersus) you'll see that the Thousand Temples alone have some five thousand Chorae, with an equal number held by the nobility throughout the Three Seas. As for them all being made into arrows, that's impossible. If you consider the numbers of sorcerers, as a whole, over the entire continent, I seriously doubt that there are even five thousand, and how many sorcerers do you think would be present at any one battle? I doubt if you would find more than twenty of them. So basically most Chorae would be worn by the nobility, and foot soldiers or cavalry (remember the Shrial Knights) for protection, with sufficient chorae bowmen to try and deal with the sorcerers. As for your question about loss of Chorae, well it all depends on who wins the battle: if you have defeated the sorcerers and the army that was supporting them you basically have possession of the battlefield, with all the time in the world to fine-comb it searching for the arrows (and this was a common practice on medieval battlefields). view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 01 May 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by anor277, Didact

Thanx Whitelord...

I hadn't realised that Scott had gone into such detail in his Q and A section on the origin of chorae. Maybe I should take a look at those threads.

You're dead right on the use of chorae on a battlefield. The gentry probably doled out a few dozen trinkets (certainly not more than a 100) to the expert archers and missile men among their clients, who were organised into a special company against sorcerors (cf the Thesji bowmen of the Fanim and the Scylvendi also had such a company). Of course, the gentry would retain one trinket for personal protection (cf. Xinemus had three, probably now lost in the wreckage of Achamian's escape). As you say, after a battle, the victors of the field would scour the paddock looking for loosed trinkets on arrows or bolts or quarrels (or on the bodies of fallen quality nobles) - on a pregunpowder battlefield this would anyway be standard behaviour for archers, slingers, missilemen (and the impecunious - a chorae would be a prized bit of loot).

We've gone off topic, but Cnaiur mentioned that his trinket was among a gift from the No-god to his people (this makes sense if the chorae originated from the Inchoroi and the rogue Non-men). Quite possibly, the Scylvendi probably possessed a lot of trinkets. They had never been defeated on the field and had 1000's of years history of looting and pillaging. After Kiyuth of course all those trinkets wold now be in the hands of the Nansur. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 01 May 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Atanvarno, Peralogue

@ White Lord. Thank you, it's been a while since I read the books (only for the second time), and I've missed quite a lot, I'm glad there's someone who can tell me when I'm wrong, so I don't do it anymore. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

However, even if I revise my ideas about chorae it still strikes me as an awful gamble using chorae. But then, I supose, war is nothing if not a very big gamble... view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 02 May 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:2xnbe1ik
We've gone off topic, but Cnaiur mentioned that his trinket was among a gift from the No-god to his people (this makes sense if the chorae originated from the Inchoroi and the rogue Non-men). Quite possibly, the Scylvendi probably possessed a lot of trinkets. They had never been defeated on the field and had 1000's of years history of looting and pillaging. After Kiyuth of course all those trinkets wold now be in the hands of the Nansur.[/quote:2xnbe1ik]

Well I suspect that after they joined the No-God they were given a second batch of Chorae. The Chorae they had before (along with the Chorae all the other nations have) were given to men a long time before that. Actually the surviving Inchoroi, after they'd been defeated by the Nonmen, somehow contacted the five tribes while they were still in Eanna. They gave them the Chorae and knowledge on how to break the Gates of Earwa. This started the migration described in the Tusk and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men) and the near-obliteration of the Nonmen. So you see, the Inchoroi actually almost succeeded in defeating the Nonmen through surrogates. It's ironic that 2000 years later they attempted to wipe out Men as well. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> You can't trust the bastards . . .

At any rate it would be interesting to know if this second batch of Chorae the Scylvendi received was some sort of remnant from the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars, or if they still know how to make them. It'd be very awkward for men to fight a Consult who could rain showers of Chorae on any battlefield . . .

As to numbers and current location of Scylvendi Chorae your guess is as good as mine . . .

A more important question would be: What and where is the Heron Spear? It was last seen in Cenei, and the Scylvendi sacked that city. So I guess it could be either destroyed or hanging in some chieftain's yaksh as a useless trophy . . . I get the impression the thing could still play some role, since it knocked out the No-God in Round One. view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 04 May 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Andrew, Peralogue

WL - scott has obviously been revealing all sorts of goodies - myself, i'd rather find out through the books (i'm assuming he told you about the inchoroi helping men break the gates...). view post


livin n dyin in TTT posted 29 August 2005 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by Mithfânion, Didact

On the matter of Iyokus, I got the distinct impression that he was dead as a doornail in TWP, killed by Achamian. Achamian battles the Ciphrang, sees Iyokus and then releases a thousands lights. I took that to be the end of Iyokus. view post


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